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Separate Block, Energy Unlock, & Passive Powers
kingpin0000
Posts: 69 Arc User
I think it would be nice if slotted passive, energy unlock, & block powers were separated from the normal 14 power options such as how travel powers are separated. You could even chose not to take them at all that way just as with travel powers (not sure why you ever would but options are nice to have).
I know some freeform characters like to switch between passives, myself included, but you only really need one. Given the overall small number of power-slots available it's hard to make builds with multiple passives in mind & this would allow characters to actually fill up their entire power tray while still having access to them. I hate seeing the empty slots & having to miss out on three powers that could potentially go a long way towards my build just for wanting to have a passive, energy unlock, & block.
They could keep the same requirements (5 or 6 powers from such & such, etc.) and just limit the options for archetypes so that it works essentially no different. I just think it would be great to get those powers no matter what even if I had to wait until hitting certain levels like 15, 25, & 35 to get them (maybe 10, 20, & 30 for freeform because well....we paid, so yeah). It would be worth it for the option of having those last 3 tray options filled too. I would suggest letting freeform players choose which type they want at each level milestone until they have one of each, & maybe going with Block, Passive, then Energy Unlock for archetypes.
I know some freeform characters like to switch between passives, myself included, but you only really need one. Given the overall small number of power-slots available it's hard to make builds with multiple passives in mind & this would allow characters to actually fill up their entire power tray while still having access to them. I hate seeing the empty slots & having to miss out on three powers that could potentially go a long way towards my build just for wanting to have a passive, energy unlock, & block.
They could keep the same requirements (5 or 6 powers from such & such, etc.) and just limit the options for archetypes so that it works essentially no different. I just think it would be great to get those powers no matter what even if I had to wait until hitting certain levels like 15, 25, & 35 to get them (maybe 10, 20, & 30 for freeform because well....we paid, so yeah). It would be worth it for the option of having those last 3 tray options filled too. I would suggest letting freeform players choose which type they want at each level milestone until they have one of each, & maybe going with Block, Passive, then Energy Unlock for archetypes.
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A big issue with your request is that currently they are trying to wrangle in player power, since we became incredibly overpowered after on alert. This process is still ongoing, so injecting players with the extra power of 3 extra power slots wouldn't be very productive right now, and in face wouldt't be productive over all.
Block replacers aren't really required, so just don't take one and take another power instead - I do that quite frequently.
If you're willing to figure it out you can actually build so you don't need an energy unlock, so there's potentially another empty space filled.
I generally build my characters so that they have as many attacks and utility powers as I can jam into their bars - I avoid things like ADs even just so I can have more attacks.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
It's the moves themselves that are considered overpowered and getting reworked. Filling the existing power slots would not make characters any stronger because that are not stats tied directly to most powers. The moves themselves would still require the same amount of attention to prevent players from being overpowered. Stat changes are tied pretty much to passives and slightly to toggles and all limited to one at a time anyways so even though this would solidify having only one passive it would create the opportunity of simply adding to your build. You could use it for more toggles, heals, buffs, active offenses/defenses, pet/minion moves, or attacks. Those are things that can further solidify a theme without granting anymore power than the powers which you already have access to allow. It wouldn't hurt anything or directly effect stats & come on the slots are just sitting there empty. Again that's just facts.
You can say block replacers aren't required but that is entirely a matter of opinion and build specification. Ascetically alone the blocks are worthwhile but when used effectively they will keep you alive! And yeah. you may not NEED an energy unlock. Honestly, I don't always use them myself but that's even more reason to not have to waste a power slot (that they don't even bother filling with it) on them & just have them be their own thing like travel powers. Why not let everyone enjoy that marginal benefit? The fact is that energy unlocks do have their uses for sure so why would you rather sacrifice it if you can have it without sacrificing a power? Honestly, listing workaround for something does not negate the effectiveness of an alternative. The presence of a workaround just indicates a potential problem in my opinion.
You literally can't jam as may as possible in as things stand. There will always be those slots waiting for more until the team decides to make use of them. Why argue against having more for next to no additional cost. And again this is just total upside for archetype users. You only get one of those types of powers anyways and not always all three. This will give archetypes all three and plus three more chances at supporting skills which again wouldn't hurt anything. The number of powers doesn't make a player OP. The powers themselves do. Not trying to start a war. This is just my take on it.
I don't see it happening though.
Are you arguing that "clunky empty spaces" are practical or more beneficial to overall player experience? Does having them empty enhance your experience in any legitimate way? Does it offer any opportunities or buffs/bonuses you would not get otherwise? Will it earn you a perk or title? Is it anything but a clear limitation? Limitations are a necessity in a game like this but what benefits does that limitation provide? In the context you present it "build smart" seems to mean "make due" in your eyes. It doesn't mean that for me. For me it means maximizing the potential & overall efficacy of the type of build I'm going for to which end adding more power options within those existing empty slots will in no way hinder or negatively impact. Three more support powers and having those other power types available no matter what but not mandatory such as with travel powers still applies a limit. I've not proposed unlimited anything. And claiming additional powers as "stuff you most likely will not even use" is just more blind generalization of a complex subject matter that holds no factual basis in it's claim. I could easily argue that a smart enough person could make good & regular use of them. It's all a matter of perspective. I can respect that you personally don't support the idea but general claims should be left out.
The fact is that filled spots are still no more clunky than empty spots because they take up the same amount of pixels on screen (not an opinion) & having them filled might help a number of players whether it be large or small so how does pointing out that other people might not want it filled, & with no way of actually indicating a particular sample size of benefited players vs inconvenienced players or even an overall knowledge of the thoughts and/or opinions of the community as a whole, change or invalidate anything I pointed out? How does making general claims about the entire community of players vs just yourself help anything? Trying to arguing the backside of my opinion especially if for the sake of argument alone doesn't serve to validate your claims any. Your opinion is still just one opinion, as is mine, so presenting either as stated fact is not gonna go over well. If you have constructive & rational criticism then by all means come with it. My opinions aren't set in stone. Opinions aren't meant to be concrete. You just haven't offered significant or even minor reason to change them so far. You're just voicing an objection with no clear basis to follow up on. That doesn't allow for actual discussion so if all you wanna do is question my personal motives for wanting this & blindly attempt to weigh them against your own objections simply for sake of discouragement to others then it's pointless to talk to you. Not trying to rile you up or anything. I'm just making a point. You could've easily just said "Well, I like having those "clunky" empty spaces there." & I wouldn't have had squat to say but "OK, more power to you. Well less I guess.
Secondly, yes, power choices do make players OP. And unfortunately letting every player add 3 more powers to their build does actually have the potential to make some existing OP builds even more OP by letting them add in 3 more OP powers. FotM builds would have an absolute field day with this.
Lastly, I just have to ask, does your suggestion include adding a few more advantage points or would we just get 3 more power choices with no additional advantage points. Really, it doesn't much matter either way since both would create a problem... If no new advantage points are added then the 3 extra powers become largely useless as there are already a very limited number of powers that don't need to be ranked up or don't need advantages taken. However, if new advantage points are given, then at that point we would undoubtedly become more powerful, since advantage points do in fact equate to a direct power boost.
I can see your point but do you really think 3 more powers that won't be able to be passives, energy unlocks, or blocks would really make that much of a difference? You can only have one form active & I have to ask if making an already OP player 3 additional moves more OP is saying much. I've not used FotM so I can't particularly speak on what 3 moves would do for those builds. With current changes to powers and the existing trend of updates it's harder nowadays to find clearly OP moves and as time moves forward this is likely to be more the case don't you think? I imagine that if this was to happen moves like FotM would've received nerfs or major adjustments which will likely happen whether they apply this or not.
Hmm, very good question. Me personally, I think I'd prefer no additional advantage points. That way you have to make sacrifices. I think that would add to the balance of things more. When you get a new travel power you don't get extra points for it. You have to make a sacrifice to power it up. I think it should work they same. Point gain is fixed based on the levels you gain so I can't even figure out how to practically add only a few without increasing the level cap which will likely never happen. I think sacrificing some of an attack's power towards something like a heal is a good trade-off though because increasing survivability increases the amount of seconds you're around to do damage which still equates to increased DPS. On a side note, some archetypes are majorly lacking. My favorite AT is the specialist & even with the new recovery buff it would benefit majorly from a more solid heal move like Bountiful Chi Resurgence, a threat wipe like Smoke Bomb, & about anything else it can get. Tbh, truly OP players are typically freeform players and very little can be done to stop them from ending up OP if they have a mind to be. Archetype powers are preassigned though so I have to imagine that in the process of modifying them even more OP moves will get addressed which I see as a good thing. At the end of the day too, all players would be getting 3 new powers so builds that might previously have not held a candle to a common OP build would have the opportunity to flesh out more and perform more on par rather than otherwise being dominated in everything from rampages, alerts, to PVP. Yeah, there would be new problems but also more possibilities for solutions to those and existing problems. That's what I think at least.
It would absolutely make them more powerful. With 3 extra slots i could add Masterful Dodge, Unbreakable, and Resurgence to several builds that don't have them and I instantly become substantially more powerful. Not sure what you think stats has to do with it. And testing. It is also a matter of that having been tested and having been proven in practice many, many times.
So then you really have no grounds to claim that they should be a standard part of all builds anymore. Yes, the powers themselves do, and that's why having more of them makes a character more powerful. Simple concept.
This character has both an energy unlock and a passive. Yes, Night Warrior gives me 2 powers, but if I dropped Night warrior and my energy unlock and exchanged them for attacks, I could then once again have a fully filled up hotbar. Notice also that only 2 slots open up, not the 3 you're claiming we should get.
So as you can see, you can in fact fill up your entire hotbar with attacks or heals or whatever you like. Or you can sacrifice one power for the utility of doing ~20% more damage, or having increased toughness, or having an aura that effects others. You can sacrifice another power for the utility of having more energy to work with. You can sacrifice another to have a stronger block with some other effects on it. But you don't have to do any of these things - you can have a perfectly workable character without doing any of these things and have a butt load of different attacks and heals and whatever. Because getting more has implications, and it helps if we're realistic about them. Sure I'd love to fly around on a magical unicorn that protects me with an adamantium bubble while pooping out nuclear bombs on everything around me... but that wouldn't really be good for the game.
PS - ^ completely backwards statement. The fact that those additional powers cannot be passives, energy unlocks, or blocks does in no way whatsoever curtail their ability to make a build overpowered.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Uh, how does making those moves guaranteed and adding additional power options reduce our number of build options?.... Sure, for a few seconds. Your base values will still be the same though so abilities that buff those values temporarily are only gonna go so far versus say better gear and higher grade mods that grant permanent increases that can multiply buffs exponentially. Double 50 and get 100 but double 75 and you get 150. 50 & 75 would be your base stats that not too many powers other than passives are gonna increase. Stats at level 5 vs stats at level 25 are gonna be much different even with the same exact powers on both characters. If two same level characters have the same powers but one has higher stats they will have a clear advantage. Get it? Temporary buffs are not permanent gains or overall boons when it comes to character effectiveness. If you don't believe me take all your gear off and try to fight with the same powers equipped. I guarantee it won't be near as easy. Those powers are emergency buttons that might save you in a pinch but having them doesn't in itself make you powerful. You have to know when and how to use them properly. And you just provided an example of how it's the particular moves that would make a character more powerful not the fact that there are more moves available btw. That was my point... You also listed a major selling point for this change: Options... If you wanna add those moves that's a conscious choice you'd be making & an option you didn't have before which seems like a good thing to me. That's just be bs. Take damage with a normal block then do a damage check with an upgraded block. Check it again with a block that's ranked up. The result is increased survivability plain as day. If your defense and flat reduction is high enough you can end up taking 1 damage max on certain enemies and mobs while blocking, and 50 hits at 1 damage point vs 50 at a higher damage point is gonna have a major effect on how long you survive especially as a tank. You're saying testing is your source but you didn't even indicate the testing done or any specific variables and constants to indicate that whatever conclusion you're referencing was or still is valid. Guess how I got my examples...testing.
First off, like travel powers it would be optional and no longer take up a power which would only help you if your complaint is not needing it. How is me saying that there are instances when I don't use them an indication of my having no grounds for a claim at anything? By me saying "don't always" it should be clear that I do in fact use them in builds as well. I even go on to state that they definitely have their uses and the benefit of incorporating them as such versus how they are currently handled. Did you even read everything before trying to reply?... I know it was wordy but come on it's feeling sad to have to repeat myself.
Uh, you're one of them kinds of people. Whole argument: Yes they do! Please believe me because I said so & other perspectives on the same topic can't possibly be more accurate. I'm not even gonna reply in suit. I'll just say that "more powerful" does not mean OP. In order to have this make you OP, you would have to choose powers to make that so which you can already do. Are you saying that if you get the chance you're gonna go out of your way to add OP moves? Even so that is a single instance situation that by no means indicates the presence of 3 more powers as the problem. The presence of those particular moves as they exist and your choice of tactics would be the culprit not the idea.
Silly goose, we all know that that's a unique passive that grants 2 additional powers. And you still have no block upgrade at all. What does doing that accomplish for people who want to have a different passive and a block but still want to fill their tray with options and complete the feel of their builds? ...Nada.
Update:
There are two because you ignored getting a block upgrade. And the whole point of this is to be able to have those power types and still fill your tray. You did nothing at all but show that you can't possibly have that currently. You pointed out the exact reasons why I made this post. What's the point?
Just because you're happy with less, it doesn't mean anybody else has to be happy with it or afraid of change simply for fear of complication. Why wouldn't it be good for a game? It's a game. Have you never played saint's row 4? It may not be practical for this game but there may be an alternative that gets close or you may see it elsewhere. You shouldn't crap on possibilities. This could fairly easily happen with minimum consequences in my opinion & I'm fully entitled to have that opinion. If the devs happen to be of like mind then we may see it become a thing. If not, oh well. Still doesn't mean you have to loose your **** over the idea & attack it directly right? It's my idea so of course I'm gonna defend it & I'm trying to do it in a practical & calm manner. I'm waiting on you to give me a reason to see things differently.
First off, it was literally a question not a statement. Had a question mark and everything. Second, it was not made to you. I asked for their opinion. Lastly, you sure like to pick and choose which parts of entire points are important to you don't you? Oh well, that's fine. But as far as your comment I think that others might disagree with you. I know I personally do if you're saying that they have NO influence on whether a build is OP. Passives alone make a world of difference and the advantages on some blocks like laser knight are plain useful. Also, if you know what you're doing you can really make the most out of energy unlocks and even completely ignore the energy return from form powers and even energy builders. It's a subjective subject. Blanket statements like that are silly to make.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
I'm starting to think you don't know how powerful certain powers are and have an exaggerated idea of how important stats are. The fact that your response was "for a few seconds" makes me wonder if you've ever used ADs before.
I've done so. The results of that testing led me to the conclusions that I presented. Also practice - I have many builds without a block replacer, and I bring them into end game content daily. My claims are thoroughly proven.
Because your claim was that every build needs them, why else why would you be proposing to make them a standard part of every build. You have however claimed that you don't need them on every character which debunks your claim that all builds need them.
No I'm one of those people who has played the game for years and played in ways that allowed me to find out just how powerful these things really are. Surprisingly enough, that knowledge compels me to disagree with you - whodathunkit?
You claimed we can't fill up our hotbars. I showed you that we can, that was the point. I knew you wouldn't like it, that's why I included a picture. Never said you didn't have a right to an opinion. Maybe you should remember that I also have the right to question that opinion. If that upsets you then you might want to consider not checking back for responses after you post your suggestion.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Only freeforms can use dual passives so you are in fact in the minority as far as how useful the current setup can be so not too many people would realistically side with you. Archetypes are very popular options too. As far as your concern in itself, you should realize that this a suggestion. You could have, if thinking objectively, suggested that freeform characters be given the option of selecting maybe 2 or even 3 passives over the course of leveling. Again though your approaching me with needless hostility and objection over a mere suggestion. You're not actually contributing to anything with posts like that. Actually, they literally last only seconds and are subject to excessive cooldowns which ensures this fact. Those cooldowns in themselves demand the dedication of multiple avenues of resources from devices, powers, & stat allocation to even begin to manage especially now with the nerf to int.
Regardless of your build type: hybrid, support, tank, ect., aside from passives, stats are your go to for not just their own unique point-by-point benefits to a variety of crucial factors such as all damage type effectiveness, healing & energy recovery, stealth awareness and longevity, max values, among many others but player strength and effectiveness in general. Super stats in particular are your source of your primary increases which are more dramatic and impactful than any provided temporarily through AO/AD use. Again, AO/AD powers from my understanding make last minute modifications to current values so if your base stats are weak they might be left wholly ineffective. Stats are what allow us to have roles. They are why mods are a major deal. They are the bread and butter of character creation. I think I'm very aware of how it all works. Every game has stats. Stats are everything. AO/AD powers are simply temporary buffs with high output over a very limited amount of time. They are useful but will not make much of a difference if not used with all other factors in mind especially stats. There's nothing about stats being keystone is exaggerated. My super stats on my main currently grant me 103% to all damage in hybrid role & it makes a clear difference which can easily be seen just by switching roles. Stacking con in itself it the corner stone to almost any defense based tank. Beyond having reached the point of diminished returns nothing else is gonna make you last longer regardless or how many AO/AD powers you use. The simple fact that gear is considered better if it increases stats and the values they feed further speaks to my point soundly. If the addition of slots for enhancement & armoring mods is enough to categorize a difference of gear class(common, rare, heroic, justice, ect.) when all those mods do is directly increase stats, then how can you argue that stats are not the primary concern of builds. Nerfing int wouldn't have broken builds otherwise.
You my friend are the one in need of enlightenment. The only thing I've done for the last 12+ is programming, graphic design, and cooking. Almost every cent I've made as an adult has come from those fields and stats are key to everything. Everything uses stats. Stats fuel my equations & functions, in programming. Computer stats dictate requirements for running software & hardware. Dimensions are stats & if I hadn't known them and factored them in while building this pc as well as others that I was paid to build I'd have a lot of useless parts and incompatible software on my hands as well as a lot upset clients. My specifications when making graphics whether pictures for sites or 3D models & textures rely on stats. Recipes make regular use of stats. The amount leavening vs the amount of acidic or reactant ingredient for example is crucial when baking. Too much or too little can get you something flat, chalky, or bitter tasting. 1 tsp of this and a cup of that are stats, numerical representations used to aid in solving complex problems in a reliable, repeatable, and consistent fashioned. That fact is not just logical but empirical. Arguing against this is something I will always object because stats are a part of my very nature. I'm hyper rational & actually deal with OCD. Numbers & patterns are involved in everything I do & I stand solidly behind my statement that stats matter immensely including in CO. This may have turned into a rant a bit but it's accurate and still on point.
Also, it's a bit weird to see you speak on ADs when you said this: "I generally build my characters so that they have as many attacks and utility powers as I can jam into their bars - I avoid things like ADs even just so I can have more attacks." in your first comment. That not words from it put in any kind of context by me. That's what you said for anyone to interpret as they see fit. For me it's a "pot calling the kettle black" situation tbh.
Again you're just saying this stating this stuff as facts with no documentation or detailed empirical analysis to present to substantiate any claim you make & are expecting someone to take your word for it. My tests are not proven any less valid than your own by you saying you've done this or that. You have literally proven nothing & that is what I'm waiting for you to do. Give me an equation or scenario to test with at least a predicted and verifiable result so that I can see for myself if your claims are true and negate my own, otherwise you're just blowing smoke. Your conclusions are still just your conclusions and are as equally subject to falsities and re-examination as mine are. That's I haven't stated any simple personal findings as direct facts. The fact is that there are way too many end-game content players in the game & who run all sorts of tests all the time. Nothing you've stated makes you or any claims you're making stand out to me in particular. You're just another player to me and anyone else other than yourself. We are all just ID numbers in a sandbox of data being read from ram and remotely streamed in and endless fetch and execute cycle offering only momentary hardware interrupts that we equate to individual skill. And again, you not using block replaces does not speak on their effectiveness. It simply says that you don't use them, to which I reply...ok.
First off, you just made a liar out of yourself. In this particular instance, we are only talking about energy unlocks. Just thought I'd make that clear. If this is about more, you have chosen ignore the vast majority of what I've actually stated so far. As far as energy unlocks as well as passives & blocks, I never claimed that every build needs them even once. Your statement of "why else" is a clear indication of your obvious reach for something to use against me valid or not. This whole suggestion from the initial post only mentions making them optional though equally presented power opportunities separated for the sake of efficacy as with travel powers. And I stated that "I", "me", "myself", if you are still unclear of the context that implies, have had instances of particular builds that did not "need" an energy unlock. This does not state in any way that having one would not & could not have been useful. This very statement in fact implies the exact opposite of your claims of my claims. I never made that claim. It was in fact your claim that energy locks were unnecessary. My argument was that though there were instances where I could forgo their use for specific builds that they were indeed important and that people could benefit more by having them presented in the same way as travel powers (i.e. optional but readily accessible). It is obvious to anyone who actually looks back at what was said except you seemingly. You only seem to be able to remember parts of statements that can be presented in your own context. I'm impressed by you commitment to unsuccessfully "put words in my mouth" as people say even though that particular wording is not really appropriate given the avenue of this conversation.
And I'm not? Last I checked I was too. I've play for years too and I can make the exact claim as you even with decidedly different results in terms of what constitutes as "powerful". It's not about disagreeing. When you present claims as blind fact and use them as an argument while choosing to attack someone personally for a SUGGESTION you are doing more than disagree. You are inviting reprisal as much as anyone meaning if I am indeed in any position of wrong doing you stand right alongside as the preeminent antagonist. - ohwowyoucanthink?!
But you didn't.... It's not a matter of liking it. I would've rushed to do it myself if you had, but again you didn't. A full hotbar as I described in this original post would be one in which the number of power choices match the number of tray options and without limiting a person's choice of powers such as how doing it as in your picture would actually do. I didn't suggest this for the sake of simply having a full bar. It's about fully utilizing the tray. That means not having to neglect any one thing unless you make the choice to do so. I'm not blindly using night warrior for every build & unlike you I personally see the benefits of energy unlocks, blocks, & passives. I want to have access to them and still have all other tray slots filled as said in the initial post so if you want to present a solution you should make it one that actually solves the problem presented. All you did was post an irrelevant picture honestly. A picture that does not at all show what this suggestion is built around as an option. That's what my complaint is about. It's not about having an opinion or voicing it. As with everyone else who replied I'm fine with & encouraged by debate and the prospect of broadening both my own views an opinions. It's the way you're choosing to present not just your opinions but yourself in general. You seem to think really highly of yourself which is fine but you seemingly expect me to do the same. You want to be able to just say what you want to me and make claims without contest. That'll never happen. Maybe you should consider newtons law: equal and opposite reactions. The moment you uttered "nonsense" and noted your personal issues as general issues as well as started making general statements about what is or is not generally required in respect to everyone who plays the game, you stepped into hostile territory and I'm prepared to defend myself fully. That's all this is. I'm strictly on the reply side. Everything I say is a direct reply to something you say so if it came off hostile it's merely because your choice of words invited that hostility. If you switched things up right now I would in kind. I don't mind arguing but I'd rather not especially in situations where it's unnecessary such as this.
I get your opinion regardless of agreeing with it and I'm more than happy to agree to disagree or try to offer creative dialogue to hopefully address your possible misunderstanding of or grievances with my suggestion as with the further suggestion that they might give freeforms the option of multiple passives to account for build types. You could also just keep your passive at the end of the stack for quick undo even if they didn't. This is more of a legitimate suggestion than yours of using night warrior to still NOT fill everything which would contradict the point of the suggestion. At the end of the day though this is merely a suggestion & I feel it nor I deserve to be attacked outright because of your personal distaste for it. It likely won't even be implemented and even if it is, it would not be up to me as far as the end implementation. As long as you choose to attack it or me this can continue. I will continue to defend the suggestion because I feel it is both solid and easily defended. It's seemingly important to you to get me to change my opinion as far as the idea so if that is in fact the case again I welcome it. You just have to present concrete facts and data if you want me to buy into anything you have to say. If that's not you goal, you could always accept this suggestion as simply an unlikely suggestion as with all other suggestions made on here and leave it be to fade into the void of suggestion pages. Either way I'm good, though my replies will be infrequent because I have things to do & can't spend too much time with this sort of thing. Honestly, at this point you're just trolling the post for holes in anything I say rather than offering anything to it.
And you still never really explained why you're so bent on locking us into a single passive. That part of the suggestion really makes no sense.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.