Devs: why was the Nemesis system abandoned?

thegrandnagus1 · September 2016

I'm genuinely curious. No other super hero game allows you to create your own custom nemesis; this makes the Nemesis system a unique selling point for this game. So why was it essentially abandoned?

ashstorm1 · October 2016

Could you define "abandoned" more precisely?

I mean, the system still exists as of now, and it's rather interesting. Is there anything else you'd like to see developed around it?

decorumfriends · October 2016

It needs more arcs, more minions and more powers. And the three "type" choices should actually do something. It seems great for a "starter" setup, but it's lacking in variety for this long in game.

More than a few bugs lurking, too. The "someone else got your mission so you're completely stalled" one is really bad. And the creator has switched back and forth a couple of time on accepting pre-loaded costumes (it won't take it when you create, only after creation, that you have to pay for).

ashstorm1 · October 2016

decorumfriends said:
It needs more arcs, more minions and more powers. And the three "type" choices should actually do something. It seems great for a "starter" setup, but it's lacking in variety for this long in game.

More than a few bugs lurking, too. The "someone else got your mission so you're completely stalled" one is really bad. And the creator has switched back and forth a couple of time on accepting pre-loaded costumes (it won't take it when you create, only after creation, that you have to pay for).

Yes, i do agree on that. The personality archetypes do not necessarily match what you may be looking for in terms of behavior, and should also result in different styles of missions.

I also know of that rare bug when one gets the nem clue instead of you during a Nemesis alert. The trick to avoid it is to have a Nemesis mission already active in your journal while doing the alert. It will prevent any other clues from dropping from the minions and so no one will risk looting it in your place.

flyingfinn · October 2016

'Abandoned'.
As in not touched, in what 6 years?
Or atleast reactivate the Weapon Skins on the Creator.
Because, those did work once, if i remember right.
No VIPER.
No ARGENT.
No Roin'Esh.
No PSI.
No Canadian Freedomfighter/rebel/oaintballers..
No Lemurians
No Bleak Ones.
No Ghosts
No Shadows
No Destroidbots
No Mechanontoastertelevisionsbots

Oh, they did upgrade the minions/nemesis powers cycle or something, i guess....

spinnytop · October 2016

Probably because it's an old system with a lot of problems that constitutes a rather small portion of the game as a whole.

chaelk · October 2016

no devs, no money from it?

markhawkman · October 2016

Actually the system uses the same costume limitations for your Nem as your hero, so there's that.

The 3 types of name are a bit overblown. I tried the mastermind option yesterday and it's not "criminal mastermind" but "mustache twirling evil genius".

pwestolemyname · October 2016

Yeah, my main has a gajillion extra Nem tokens because I like battling my Nemesis so much, but I've already got all the Nem gear I can handle. I would love to see full story-arcs based around your Nemesis, especially if it were teamable content. "Help, Nuclear Knucklehead is destroying my penthouse building, can anyone assist me in stopping him?" I would love more opportunities to interact with other people's Nemesis, to see their creations. Pounding it down in 45 seconds in an Alert doesn't really constitute quality interaction.

I thought that when the Nem system was put in, they said your Nem might randomly show up in missions to ambush you. When I first started playing, I literally lived in fear of this happening. I actually waited until my first one was 40 before setting up a Nemesis because I didn't want it showing up all the time killing me. I think it used to happen every now and then, but now it never really does. Sometimes, though very rarely, the Nem minions will show up in an outdoor mission, but only a few of them, they are way underpowered and your Nemesis never actually shows up.

I would also love to see many more unique items in the Nemesis store, devices, costumes, gear, etc. The Nemesis gear was even rendered pointless by the much better Aurum gear.

This really could have been a keystone of this game and set it miles apart from others. But, it is just left to be a tiny, pointless sidenote.

rianfrost · October 2016

we are just getting the first new zone in years, resources have been limited. the system could be a lot more, and hopefully now that we are seeing some life out of cryptic they might take a swing at it, but its best to consider the scale cryptic is at before setting expectations. we arent activision here.

canadascott · October 2016

It was someone else's baby. They wanted to work on their babies, not someone else's. There was a little attempt to integrate it into Whiteout (a nice touch) and the early alert system, aside from that, the various dev teams have treated it as a pariah.

But CO systems tend to get one pass, and the devs move onto the next shiny in hopes of attracting players to the new). The nemesis system has a lot of potential, but to be fair reworking it might not attract new players and woud also require a lot of resources

eviltwintwo · October 2016

Maybe Nemesis Alerts?

markhawkman · October 2016

eviltwintwo said:
Maybe Nemesis Alerts?

I'd like to see a GRAB style Nem alert where everyone's nemesis shows up as a 5 supervillain team.

nepht · October 2016

I do nem stuff all the time. Maybe they just finished it to the level they wanted and moved on.

thegrandnagus1 · October 2016

ashstorm1 said:
Could you define "abandoned" more precisely?

I mean, the system still exists as of now, and it's rather interesting. Is there anything else you'd like to see developed around it?

Yeah, my meaning is very simple: it is no longer being developed. Did you not understand what I meant?

To answer your question: yes, of course. I would love to see..new stuff added to it. New missions.

Thanks for your feedback!

markhawkman · October 2016

yeah, but that's a lot like asking for new stuff to be added to Nukara rep....

decorumfriends · October 2016

markhawkman said:
Actually the system uses the same costume limitations for your Nem as your hero, so there's that.

The 3 types of name are a bit overblown. I tried the mastermind option yesterday and it's not "criminal mastermind" but "mustache twirling evil genius".

They do nothing. They're all exactly the same, no matter if you choose Mastermind, Savage or Maniac. All the dialogue is identical.

roughbearmattach · October 2016

pwestolemyname said:

I thought that when the Nem system was put in, they said your Nem might randomly show up in missions to ambush you. When I first started playing, I literally lived in fear of this happening. I actually waited until my first one was 40 before setting up a Nemesis because I didn't want it showing up all the time killing me. I think it used to happen every now and then, but now it never really does. Sometimes, though very rarely, the Nem minions will show up in an outdoor mission, but only a few of them, they are way underpowered and your Nemesis never actually shows up.

There is one place in game where this can happen. Occasionally, your Nemesis and a group of minions shows up when you enter the Lava Temple in Andrith. Set the skill level to Elite before entering, and you may have an interesting fight, too.

I would be super happy if a nemesis teamup alert were made, as others said, though the prospect of five generic nemeses in a fight looms.

markhawkman · October 2016

5 generic nemesis is better than one.

decorumfriends · October 2016

All that stacked poison? UGH!

pantagruel01 · October 2016

I can think of a few reasons why the nemesis system might not be a priority. The big ones are:
Content that works well for all possible nemeses is exceedingly difficult to construct
If there's a boss fight, you have to design it to work when the boss might have one of twenty different power sets. The plot should make sense for multiple different nemesis backgrounds and personalities (the existing nemesis arc isn't very good at this). The cut scenes need to make sense. Etc, etc, etc.
Most new content tells stories. They generally want to tell stories about storyline characters, not [insert name here].

sterga · October 2016

"It was someone else's baby. They wanted to work on their babies, not someone else's. There was a little attempt to integrate it into Whiteout (a nice touch) and the early alert system, aside from that, the various dev teams have treated it as a pariah.

But CO systems tend to get one pass, and the devs move onto the next shiny in hopes of attracting players to the new). The nemesis system has a lot of potential, but to be fair reworking it might not attract new players and woud also require a lot of resources"

This. Every new dev team wants to be a special snowflake and leave their mark on the game. So even though the Nem system could be a highlight and a unique thing for CO, no dev team is going to touch it again. Anything new the devs make is going to require a fair bit of work. I'd rather see the nem system get worked on than more goofy, grimdark edge-McMaster-lord stuff added to the game. I can play epeen-compensating end-game raid snooze-fests everywhere, but I can't design my very own arch nemesis anywhere else.

xoriandruid · October 2016

sterga said:
"It was someone else's baby. They wanted to work on their babies, not someone else's. There was a little attempt to integrate it into Whiteout (a nice touch) and the early alert system, aside from that, the various dev teams have treated it as a pariah. But CO systems tend to get one pass, and the devs move onto the next shiny in hopes of attracting players to the new). The nemesis system has a lot of potential, but to be fair reworking it might not attract new players and woud also require a lot of resources"

This. Every new dev team wants to be a special snowflake and leave their mark on the game. So even though the Nem system could be a highlight and a unique thing for CO, no dev team is going to touch it again. Anything new the devs make is going to require a fair bit of work. I'd rather see the nem system get worked on than more goofy, grimdark edge-McMaster-lord stuff added to the game. I can play epeen-compensating end-game raid snooze-fests everywhere, but I can't design my very own arch nemesis anywhere else.

Hmmm giving a more objective view here is that this isnt like its an indie project or a personal one for that matter, technically it cannot be just one individuals baby not to mention your selling it, this is why when people say its your baby gives me the shivers for one you never sell your baby and for two its nothing like your baby but it is yours.

Keep in mind thats just my opinion, I do understand if something like this goes into hardwork and all, but getting paid to do something just isnt the same thing as doing something simply because you love it. Not trying to be mean or anything here.

tempestorm76 · October 2016

I would love to see the Nemesis system expanded. More mission types (as opposed to the museum heist every first encounter). More random attacks (to include the nemesis).

As someone mentioned above the inclusion of the nemesis in Whiteout is a nice touch.

Edit: The idea presented above regarding a group mission where you fight everyone's nemesis would be fun.

markhawkman · October 2016

IIRc Nem pops up in the Cyber-carrier mission.

spinnytop · October 2016

sterga said:
"It was someone else's baby. They wanted to work on their babies, not someone else's. There was a little attempt to integrate it into Whiteout (a nice touch) and the early alert system, aside from that, the various dev teams have treated it as a pariah. But CO systems tend to get one pass, and the devs move onto the next shiny in hopes of attracting players to the new). The nemesis system has a lot of potential, but to be fair reworking it might not attract new players and woud also require a lot of resources"

This. Every new dev team wants to be a special snowflake and leave their mark on the game. So even though the Nem system could be a highlight and a unique thing for CO, no dev team is going to touch it again. Anything new the devs make is going to require a fair bit of work. I'd rather see the nem system get worked on than more goofy, grimdark edge-McMaster-lord stuff added to the game. I can play epeen-compensating end-game raid snooze-fests everywhere, but I can't design my very own arch nemesis anywhere else.

What do you have against using the forum quote system? o3o I mean I know it's janky, but it works fine if you're only quoting one person.

avianos · October 2016

[We have no plans to Update Nemesis system Intensifies]

spinnytop · October 2016

avianos said:
[We have no plans to Update Nemesis system Intensifies]

Good, I want more epic lairs.

markhawkman · October 2016

spinnytop said:

sterga said:

canadascott said:
It was someone else's baby. They wanted to work on their babies, not someone else's. There was a little attempt to integrate it into Whiteout (a nice touch) and the early alert system, aside from that, the various dev teams have treated it as a pariah. But CO systems tend to get one pass, and the devs move onto the next shiny in hopes of attracting players to the new). The nemesis system has a lot of potential, but to be fair reworking it might not attract new players and woud also require a lot of resources
This. Every new dev team wants to be a special snowflake and leave their mark on the game. So even though the Nem system could be a highlight and a unique thing for CO, no dev team is going to touch it again. Anything new the devs make is going to require a fair bit of work. I'd rather see the nem system get worked on than more goofy, grimdark edge-McMaster-lord stuff added to the game. I can play epeen-compensating end-game raid snooze-fests everywhere, but I can't design my very own arch nemesis anywhere else.
What do you have against using the forum quote system? o3o I mean I know it's janky, but it works fine if you're only quoting one person.

It works even better if you learn how to rebuild the blockquote tags to fix the glitches!

avianos · October 2016

spinnytop wrote: »

Good, I want more epic lairs.

darqaura2 · October 2016

spinnytop said:
Probably because it's an old system with a lot of problems that constitutes a rather small portion of the game as a whole.

Kinda like pvp?

darqaura2 · October 2016

avianos said:

spinnytop wrote: »

Good, I want more epic lairs.

--------------

That would require more resources then CO is realistically going to get. Took us 6 years to get a new zone.

I wouldn't hold my breath.

decorumfriends · October 2016

It really didn't take us six years to get a new zone. It only took a few months, after six years of simply not doing it. It's not like they've been working on it for six years.

spinnytop · October 2016

darqaura2 said:

spinnytop said:
Probably because it's an old system with a lot of problems that constitutes a rather small portion of the game as a whole.
Kinda like pvp?

Yes

darqaura2 · October 2016

decorumfriends said:
It really didn't take us six years to get a new zone. It only took a few months, after six years of simply not doing it. It's not like they've been working on it for six years.

Took us six years to get the resources and team together that could even tackle a new zone. I stand by my statement.

darqaura2 · October 2016

spinnytop said:

darqaura2 said:

spinnytop said:
Probably because it's an old system with a lot of problems that constitutes a rather small portion of the game as a whole.
Kinda like pvp?
Yes

I agree with the sentiment that alot of these systems need a revisit from time to time: Nemesis, PVP, Onslaught.

themightyzenith · October 2016

darqaura2 said:
Took us six years to get the resources and team together that could even tackle a new zone. I stand by my statement.

It didn't really. It took six years for them to decide to do a new zone. The team is smaller now than what we used to have.

I would rather have had them revamp the Nemesis system and perhaps add a contacts system (similar in function, but not in style, to the duty officer system that STO have that I've read about) instead of the whole vehicle system nonsense.

markhawkman · October 2016

themightyzenith said:

darqaura2 said:
Took us six years to get the resources and team together that could even tackle a new zone. I stand by my statement.
It didn't really. It took six years for them to decide to do a new zone. The team is smaller now than what we used to have.

I would rather have had them revamp the Nemesis system and perhaps add a contacts system (similar in function, but not in style, to the duty officer system that STO have that I've read about) instead of the whole vehicle system nonsense.

Enh. not sure how that'd work since Doffing involves having hundreds of NPCs as your loyal minions.

spinnytop · October 2016

darqaura2 said:

spinnytop said:

darqaura2 said:

spinnytop said:
Probably because it's an old system with a lot of problems that constitutes a rather small portion of the game as a whole.
Kinda like pvp?
Yes
I agree with the sentiment that alot of these systems need a revisit from time to time: Nemesis, PVP, Onslaught.

Sure.

They're further down the list though.

themightyzenith · October 2016

markhawkman said:
Enh. not sure how that'd work since Doffing involves having hundreds of NPCs as your loyal minions.

I can see it as having a cast list of contacts like many supers in comic-books do such as; The Girlfriend /Boyfriend / Best Friend, The Photographer, The Journalist, The Beat-Cop, The Detective, The Assistant DA, The Fed, The Criminal Psychologist, The PRIMUS Agent, The UNTIL Agent, The Scientist, The Criminal Snitch, The Loyal Butler, The Plucky Ward, The Weapon and Armour Maker, The Costume Maker, The Martial Arts Sensei, The Occultist, The Nurse/Doctor, The Museum Curator ..... while not neverending, the list of possible comic-book style contacts can be quite extensive.

It just needs scaled down from "hundreds of NPCs as your loyal minions" to several contacts as your helpers. We could start with a couple of them free and unlock a few more via 'contact missions' and buy further ones with Zen and/or have them drop from lockboxes.

markhawkman · October 2016

themightyzenith said:

markhawkman said:
Enh. not sure how that'd work since Doffing involves having hundreds of NPCs as your loyal minions.
I can see it as having a cast list of contacts like many supers in comic-books do such as; The Girlfriend /Boyfriend / Best Friend, The Photographer, The Journalist, The Beat-Cop, The Detective, The Assistant DA, The Fed, The Criminal Psychologist, The PRIMUS Agent, The UNTIL Agent, The Scientist, The Criminal Snitch, The Loyal Butler, The Plucky Ward, The Weapon and Armour Maker, The Costume Maker, The Martial Arts Sensei, The Occultist, The Nurse/Doctor, The Museum Curator ..... while not neverending, the list of possible comic-book style contacts can be quite extensive.

It just needs scaled down from "hundreds of NPCs as your loyal minions" to several contacts as your helpers. We could start with a couple of them free and unlock a few more via 'contact missions' and buy further ones with Zen and/or have them drop from lockboxes.

Hmm so would these be mission giver NPCs or something else?

themightyzenith · October 2016

markhawkman said:
Hmm so would these be mission giver NPCs or something else?

The contacts could be put to work to earn you things in-game similar to how the duty officers in STO are, but obviously redesigned for CO and the comic-book genre. Perhaps there could intially be a mission chain to unlock each one before they become your official contacts.

For example, for the Detective you could track down a villain for him leading up to him teaming up with you on the last mission in the chain to arrest the big baddie. After the mission chain he is then unlocked as a contact and enters into your contacts system to start earning you stuff.

As we have such great customisation of characters here, their looks and names would also be customisable, like our Nemeses (perhaps there could be a generic look to choose from for those who don't want to bother with this part).

It's just an idea.

legendarylycan · October 2016

themightyzenith wrote: »

The contacts could be put to work to earn you things in-game

*cough*ESO*cough

pantagruel01 · October 2016

darqaura2 said:
Took us six years to get the resources and team together that could even tackle a new zone. I stand by my statement.

To a large degree that's just a matter of choices. Honestly, calling the Qliphotic Warzone a zone is pushing the definitions, it's way more limited (in terms of missions, geography, etc) than any of the major zones. A bunch of adventures have introduced extremely large maps (the outdoor maps in Serpent Lantern and Aftershock, the Qliphotic maps in Demonflame and Aftershock, Multifaria) that could easily have been turned into persistent areas.

spinnytop · October 2016

You know, all I really want is an NPC whom I can give my mods to and they will fuse them for me while I'm logged out.

themightyzenith · October 2016

shadowfang240 said:
*cough*ESO*cough

Actually, as I said, I meant as in STO. But hey, if it's in another game also then that's another example that could be looked at for implementation ideas. Never played ESO myself.

What is the equivalent system called in ESO? I may look it up.

legendarylycan · October 2016

it's not a system; it's part of crafting - one of the perks you can pick up for each crafting category is an assistant that'll gather random appropriate crafting material for you every day and send it to you through ingame mail

decorumfriends · October 2016

Conceptually, it feels iffy to me. A great deal of the super-hero "community" are complete loners. Not everyone's Batman with a support team. Very few are, in fact.

themightyzenith · October 2016

decorumfriends said:
Conceptually, it feels iffy to me. A great deal of the super-hero "community" are complete loners. Not everyone's Batman with a support team. Very few are, in fact.

I wasn't talking about "support characters" like the Bat extended family. I mentioned contacts like....

themightyzenith said:
The Girlfriend /Boyfriend / Best Friend, The Photographer, The Journalist, The Beat-Cop, The Detective, The Assistant DA, The Fed, The Criminal Psychologist, The PRIMUS Agent, The UNTIL Agent, The Scientist, The Criminal Snitch, The Loyal Butler, The Plucky Ward, The Weapon and Armour Maker, The Costume Maker, The Martial Arts Sensei, The Occultist, The Nurse/Doctor, The Museum Curator. etc, etc .............

Most Superheroes in the genre have, at the very least, 2 or 3 of these.

I don't know if you read western comic-books, but these are pretty staple supporting characters in the vast majority of them.

Also, you could unlock different ones for different characters. Story-wise, your loner could have a criminal snitch and a doctor that patches him up when the injuries are too bad. He could even have the weapon and armour maker. They don't have to be friends, just contacts.

If you don't want this type of system, that's fine man. It's just an idea. Saying that the western comic-book genre doesn't have many examples of heroes with this type of supporting cast isn't true though.

Only a tiny minority use vehicles though, even less use the type of vehicles we have in this game.
Now THEY are iffy

decorumfriends · October 2016

themightyzenith said:
Most Superheroes in the genre have, at the very least, 2 or 3 of these.

I don't know if you read western comic-books

1964-2005

themightyzenith said:
but these are pretty staple supporting characters in the vast majority of them.

In bits and pieces (2-3 like you mention). The whole list, though? That was my concern.

themightyzenith said:
Also, you could unlock different ones for different characters. Story-wise, your loner could have a criminal snitch and a doctor that patches him up when the injuries are too bad. He could even have the weapon and armour maker. They don't have to be friends, just contacts.

Hmmm...maybe some kind of cascading restriction? Like you don't get to meet the ADA until you've already accrued some street cop support?

themightyzenith said:
If you don't want this type of system, that's fine man. It's just an idea. Saying that the western comic-book genre doesn't have many examples of heroes with this type of supporting cast isn't true though.

Hey, I only said "iffy" while spitballing my immediate thought. I wasn't snarling a "NO WAY!"

themightyzenith · October 2016

decorumfriends said:

themightyzenith said:
Most Superheroes in the genre have, at the very least, 2 or 3 of these.

I don't know if you read western comic-books
1964-2005
themightyzenith said:
but these are pretty staple supporting characters in the vast majority of them.
In bits and pieces (2-3 like you mention). The whole list, though? That was my concern.
themightyzenith said:
Also, you could unlock different ones for different characters. Story-wise, your loner could have a criminal snitch and a doctor that patches him up when the injuries are too bad. He could even have the weapon and armour maker. They don't have to be friends, just contacts.
Hmmm...maybe some kind of cascading restriction? Like you don't get to meet the ADA until you've already accrued some street cop support?
themightyzenith said:
If you don't want this type of system, that's fine man. It's just an idea. Saying that the western comic-book genre doesn't have many examples of heroes with this type of supporting cast isn't true though.
Hey, I only said "iffy" while spitballing my immediate thought. I wasn't snarling a "NO WAY!"

I haven't got it all worked out. I only really thought properly about it when questioned about the idea in this thread. I just put down a big list as examples, but I would probably have a limit of the number of contacts per character.

I like the idea of a hierarchy of contacts that you mentioned.... the "don't get to meet the DA until you've already accrued some street cop support". Sounds like a more engrossing system.

Thanks for building on it and not just shooting it down

Devs: why was the Nemesis system abandoned?

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