Again their word against his, and Daeke doesn't exactly have the best track record.
Eh, I know I'll regret getting into this, and to be honest I have very fuzzy memories from those early times, but I do remember a little bit of spin control on Vibora Bay from Bill Roper. A Google search turned up this tidbit, which seems to confirm Cryptic's original intention to charge for VB and their about-face due to the community's response.
How reliable this is, I have no idea - but let's face it, Cryptic pulled some stinkers back in the day. This wouldn't have been beyond the pale for them.
All that said, I'm looking forward to seeing what Jack can do with, for, or to DCUO (if anything can be done at this late stage). I never understood the Jack hate. Granted, I didn't start playing CoH until a couple of months after CoV launched, but I didn't much feel the impact of the lack of Jack after Cryptic sold CoX to NCSoft.
Even Jon was working under the assumption Vibora was paid in 2013.
Say what? Vibora was free as a bird back in 2011.
Are you sure you are where you think you are and are talking about what you think you are talking about?
I should've said, "Even Jon was working under the assumption that Vibora was [intended to be a] paid [expansion]." So ... hurray for intentional misreadings?
For therealted ...
Here's a piece from Engadget about a talk Jack gave at GDC in 2008, https://www.engadget.com/2008/02/22/gdc08-jack-emmert-on-cryptics-success-and-failure/ . If you read this first and follow up with the Eurogamer interview I linked to above, you can get a feel for how Jack himself felt about development and interaction with the players. Of note, in the Engadget piece, he says that games should released with all major features in place. If they aren't there at launch, they will never be accepted. Note: he based opinion on PvP in CoH which released buggy and unbalanced with stubs in place for future expansion (tournaments and rankings) that were never added -- a theme that would be revisited with CO.
Later on, he talks about the dev team's lack of experience in developing a balanced game since, initially, they aimed for fun. When players then started min / maxing, things went pear-shaped. When the nerfs arrived (usually timed with major content patches), Jack first hoped that players wouldn't mind so much since they'd be too busy playing new content to care. But, as any MMO developer since will tell you, it's best to nerf before you release and buff afterwards. If you were around for the Regen nerfs of Issues 1 - 4 and the global defense nerf of I5, you'd get a sense for how upset he could make a crowd. Also, many of his posts tended towards condescension. During his days as CoH's lead, he never really gave up on his goal of balancing around fun. For one example, (and to paraphrase slightly), when the players pointed out that Force Bubble was largely useless (it radially pushed mobs out from the caster to 50') since it disrupted AoEs, his response was, "But, wow, what an effect!" And, indeed, it was cool looking ... until you realized that, at the time he said that, many attacks didn't have the range to go from the caster edge of the bubble.
The upshot here is that CO released feature complete, or nearly so. Unfortunately, in Jack's own words, many of the systems were unpolished or poorly executed (echoes of CoH's PvP). When players left for more polished offerings, Cryptic simply started moving staff to STO leaving many of the game's systems in a rough state for months or years.
Again, Jack learned from his mistakes. Legitimately, CO was better than CoH at release. STO was better than CO. NW topped Cryptic's previous games. What happened, however, is that Cryptic adopted an "eat what you kill" model for funding CO's development so that CO never got the resources it needed to rapidly grow past its initial rough state and retain (admittedly fickle) players. Unfortunately, you only get one chance to make a first impression.
The upshot here is that CO released feature complete, or nearly so. Unfortunately, in Jack's own words, many of the systems were unpolished or poorly executed (echoes of CoH's PvP). When players left for more polished offerings, Cryptic simply started moving staff to STO leaving many of the game's systems in a rough state for months or years.
No.... that migration was because they were scrambling to meet a deadline for release of STO.
The upshot here is that CO released feature complete, or nearly so. Unfortunately, in Jack's own words, many of the systems were unpolished or poorly executed (echoes of CoH's PvP). When players left for more polished offerings, Cryptic simply started moving staff to STO leaving many of the game's systems in a rough state for months or years.
No.... that migration was because they were scrambling to meet a deadline for release of STO.
Indeed, and the playerbase leaving didn't really start happening in substantial numbers until after that dev migration occurred.
The upshot here is that CO released feature complete, or nearly so. Unfortunately, in Jack's own words, many of the systems were unpolished or poorly executed (echoes of CoH's PvP). When players left for more polished offerings, Cryptic simply started moving staff to STO leaving many of the game's systems in a rough state for months or years.
No.... that migration was because they were scrambling to meet a deadline for release of STO.
Indeed, and the playerbase leaving didn't really start happening in substantial numbers until after that dev migration occurred.
Yep. The first dev siphon happened because Atari, Cryptic, and CBS were all deluded enough to believe that they could still hit Perpetual's original deadline for STO.
Choose your enemies carefully, because they will define you / Make them interesting, because in some ways they will mind you
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
Go back and look at the feature list for Legacy of Romulus. That was a crap-ton of stuff Cryptic had to leave on the cutting room floor to hit the launch deadline. Or did you really think that KDF characters starting at level 20 was the plan all along?
Choose your enemies carefully, because they will define you / Make them interesting, because in some ways they will mind you
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
they had a year and a half to get a game from the foundation up to a point where it could be released; they did - details don't matter, period
They needed two years. Releasing the first 20 levels of PvE content for an entire faction in an expansion was proof of that. But yeah, let's completely excuse something that dumb because they technically hit the date.
If I did that, I'd get fired.
Choose your enemies carefully, because they will define you / Make them interesting, because in some ways they will mind you
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
The upshot here is that CO released feature complete, or nearly so. Unfortunately, in Jack's own words, many of the systems were unpolished or poorly executed (echoes of CoH's PvP). When players left for more polished offerings, Cryptic simply started moving staff to STO leaving many of the game's systems in a rough state for months or years.
No.... that migration was because they were scrambling to meet a deadline for release of STO.
That, too. But the warning lights were surely going off at Cryptic when folks with LTs demanding refunds (which, to their credit, Cryptic gave) when the leveling curve patch hit during pre-release. Later on, around Kitchen Sink, Jack explained that CO was budgeted resources based on its revenues.
Yes, Cryptic moved people to finish STO. But that move was assuredly made easier by the slipping subscription numbers of CO. And the shift, that many of us thought was temporary, became permanent because of CO's poor showing.
The upshot here is that CO released feature complete, or nearly so. Unfortunately, in Jack's own words, many of the systems were unpolished or poorly executed (echoes of CoH's PvP). When players left for more polished offerings, Cryptic simply started moving staff to STO leaving many of the game's systems in a rough state for months or years.
No.... that migration was because they were scrambling to meet a deadline for release of STO.
That, too. But the warning lights were surely going off at Cryptic when folks with LTs demanding refunds (which, to their credit, Cryptic gave) when the leveling curve patch hit during pre-release. Later on, around Kitchen Sink, Jack explained that CO was budgeted resources based on its revenues.
Yes, Cryptic moved people to finish STO. But that move was assuredly made easier by the slipping subscription numbers of CO. And the shift, that many of us thought was temporary, became permanent because of CO's poor showing.
The funding working how it was was rather crippling to CO as well, since funds were redirected from CO to Develop STO & NW... Funds that were never returned... Theoretically one could claim that the current burst of development is them finally returning those redirected funds... but when you stop to look at the development over the past several years and the funds that have undoubtedly still been pumped into CO by the playerbase, they still have a ways to go before they even finish with the funds that CO has earned whilst being ignored.
That, too. But the warning lights were surely going off at Cryptic when folks with LTs demanding refunds (which, to their credit, Cryptic gave) when the leveling curve patch hit during pre-release. Later on, around Kitchen Sink, Jack explained that CO was budgeted resources based on its revenues.
Yes, Cryptic moved people to finish STO. But that move was assuredly made easier by the slipping subscription numbers of CO. And the shift, that many of us thought was temporary, became permanent because of CO's poor showing.
The leveling patch didn't hit during pre-release. It hit on launch day. Furthermore the leveling speed was not changed, the critter difficulty was substantially increased.
The funding working how it was was rather crippling to CO as well, since funds were redirected from CO to Develop STO & NW... Funds that were never returned... Theoretically one could claim that the current burst of development is them finally returning those redirected funds... but when you stop to look at the development over the past several years and the funds that have undoubtedly still been pumped into CO by the playerbase, they still have a ways to go before they even finish with the funds that CO has earned whilst being ignored.
Unfortunately, that's not how financing works and regardless of what people feel, since we don't know actual numbers, it still costs to maintain the game as is, even if it was receiving minimal development since they do have to pay the people that do work and maintain the game.
I was always amused how the people that hate him (ex-CoH players at that) always like to believe he is responsible for everything. He is one man, the decision is left up tot he team to do something. One man who just decided to take the responsibility on his own shoulders and accept the blame. And it's funny they keep thinking he is the reason such and such didn't happen when well if one actually looks at history you can see why such and such didn't happen. But that's how it is, people need a scapegoat, no matter how obvious the truth is.
I was always amused how the people that hate him (ex-CoH players at that) always like to believe he is responsible for everything. He is one man, the decision is left up tot he team to do something. One man who just decided to take the responsibility on his own shoulders and accept the blame. And it's funny they keep thinking he is the reason such and such didn't happen when well if one actually looks at history you can see why such and such didn't happen. But that's how it is, people need a scapegoat, no matter how obvious the truth is.
I actually was there for most of what happened during the COH years. Jack's biggest issue was not being an effective communicator and a misunderstanding of how some systems in the game worked at the time (or at least how players perceived those systems).
Other than the short time he was important (and he really wasn't for most of COH's life) I didn't really pay him any mind.
Never understood the blind hate other COH players had for him.
I actually was there for most of what happened during the COH years. Jack's biggest issue was not being an effective communicator and a misunderstanding of how some systems in the game worked at the time (or at least how players perceived those systems).
Other than the short time he was important (and he really wasn't for most of COH's life) I didn't really pay him any mind.
Never understood the blind hate other COH players had for him.
Because again people need a scape goat. Didn't help that Positron and company also fostered said hate on a regular basis. I watched from the side lines as Positron would one day state how he was given a large responsibility and thank Jack for it, the next day throwing him under the bus and blaming him for problem X that I doubt jack was even involved with. That is one person I never cared for because he always seemed more of a double dealer and always kept promising stuff and never delivering on them.
I actually was there for most of what happened during the COH years. Jack's biggest issue was not being an effective communicator and a misunderstanding of how some systems in the game worked at the time (or at least how players perceived those systems).
Other than the short time he was important (and he really wasn't for most of COH's life) I didn't really pay him any mind.
Never understood the blind hate other COH players had for him.
Because again people need a scape goat. Didn't help that Positron and company also fostered said hate on a regular basis. I watched from the side lines as Positron would one day state how he was given a large responsibility and thank Jack for it, the next day throwing him under the bus and blaming him for problem X that I doubt jack was even involved with. That is one person I never cared for because he always seemed more of a double dealer and always kept promising stuff and never delivering on them.
Ehhh each of the COH devs had their faults. And I know things quickly change in development (and this is probably pre the Agile era). I actually hold them in higher esteem than most teams as they did so much with so little for so long.
At CoX, Jack effectively DID "control everything" by controlling the purse-strings. He seemed to be under the impression that you create a game and then fire most of the employees, because you're never going to have to improve or repair anything, right? Skeleton dev crews don't get a chance to do much.
At CoX, Jack effectively DID "control everything" by controlling the purse-strings. He seemed to be under the impression that you create a game and then fire most of the employees, because you're never going to have to improve or repair anything, right? Skeleton dev crews don't get a chance to do much.
*pokes with 20ft pole*
Yeah... "fired" implies that there was originally a plan to keep them longer. Hiring someone for a specific job does not require an indefinite contract.
At CoX, Jack effectively DID "control everything" by controlling the purse-strings. He seemed to be under the impression that you create a game and then fire most of the employees, because you're never going to have to improve or repair anything, right? Skeleton dev crews don't get a chance to do much.
This is one of the things that so so many MMO devs don't understand... MMOs require constant maintenance and updates to remain successfull. A complete dev team is required full time for a successfull MMO, even if said "complete" dev team is a small team. Its understandable to hire on a much larger team for the initial developmet and large content updates/expansions, but a fully functional complete dev team must remain on hand full time to keep the game running for years to come. If the reason of "we don't have a dev to do that rigth now" is ever used then time to hire someone full time t fill that gap. MMOs are not like other games. The mentality of "hire a team to make the game then let them all go after launch" is the exact reason why there are so many MMOs floating around that are never updated, have bugs that are never fixed, and are completly unsuccessfull... It honestly would ot suprise me if several of the issues with such MMOs were intentinally made or left unfixed by their dev team for the simple reason that absolutely no one on the team was ever going to stay so no one really had the invested interest to insure the game actually worked 100% propperly... it happens, sure they may get a massive pay check for the project, but they know they are going to be out of a job agan for an unknown amount of time once the game launches. Intentionally made/ignored bugs happen as a vailed attemped to squeeze a couple extra months of pay out of the job, and sometimes it is successfull. Having atleast one complete fulltime dev team insures that such shinanigans don't happen, and insures that the game can and will get much needed updates and fixes as time progresses.
At CoX, Jack effectively DID "control everything" by controlling the purse-strings. He seemed to be under the impression that you create a game and then fire most of the employees, because you're never going to have to improve or repair anything, right? Skeleton dev crews don't get a chance to do much.
This is obviously where CoH players know very little of the behind the scenes. Jack did not control the purse strings, and in fact most of the problems with CoH before Cryptic sold the IP was NCSoft would always butt heads with them over creative differences. Plain and simple. NCSoft controlled the purse strings in the end, and determined how finances would work. Jack had to decide what to do with the resources he was given. He was in the unenviable position and history repeated itself quite well with Atari to. Now there is a company you should hate because Atari literally expected Champions to pump out money and they wanted development stopped post launch.
This is one of the things that so so many MMO devs don't understand... MMOs require constant maintenance and updates to remain successfull. A complete dev team is required full time for a successfull MMO, even if said "complete" dev team is a small team. Its understandable to hire on a much larger team for the initial developmet and large content updates/expansions, but a fully functional complete dev team must remain on hand full time to keep the game running for years to come. If the reason of "we don't have a dev to do that rigth now" is ever used then time to hire someone full time t fill that gap. MMOs are not like other games. The mentality of "hire a team to make the game then let them all go after launch" is the exact reason why there are so many MMOs floating around that are never updated, have bugs that are never fixed, and are completly unsuccessfull... It honestly would ot suprise me if several of the issues with such MMOs were intentinally made or left unfixed by their dev team for the simple reason that absolutely no one on the team was ever going to stay so no one really had the invested interest to insure the game actually worked 100% propperly... it happens, sure they may get a massive pay check for the project, but they know they are going to be out of a job agan for an unknown amount of time once the game launches. Intentionally made/ignored bugs happen as a vailed attemped to squeeze a couple extra months of pay out of the job, and sometimes it is successfull. Having atleast one complete fulltime dev team insures that such shinanigans don't happen, and insures that the game can and will get much needed updates and fixes as time progresses.
Exactly. The CoH devs had horror stories of going into code and finding notes like "do not touch this, it will break bases, talk to *Person*" and the note will have a 2003-4 date on it and the person left shortly before game launch.
And we've seen similar things here in CO. Systems that have been long broken (some since they debuted). And no devs brought it want to go anywhere near them. And it ESPECIALLY sucks when these systems gate content.
As angry as NCSoft made people with the closure of CoH, at least they understood that you can't simply pop the game out and then move on to the next thing.
And as for the fiction that VB was "always meant to be free".
* Vibora Bay Becomes Revelation The expansion formerly known as Vibora Bay has a new, more descriptive name: Champions Online – Revelation! We’ll be talking quite a bit more about it in the coming weeks. * It’s Free! We heard our community and we acted. Champions Online – Revelation will now be available to everyone at no extra charge. That is a free expansion pack for all Champions Online players. * A True Expansion Champions Online – Revelation is a full-fledged expansion. It’s a brand new way for you and your friends to enjoy the game together. * March, 2010 Revelation will be available mid-March, 2010. Video, screens, interviews, previews ... . All will be coming very soon.
I'd view anything beyond that as revisionist history and face-saving.
* Vibora Bay Becomes Revelation The expansion formerly known as Vibora Bay has a new, more descriptive name: Champions Online – Revelation! We’ll be talking quite a bit more about it in the coming weeks. * It’s Free! We heard our community and we acted. Champions Online – Revelation will now be available to everyone at no extra charge. That is a free expansion pack for all Champions Online players. * A True Expansion Champions Online – Revelation is a full-fledged expansion. It’s a brand new way for you and your friends to enjoy the game together. * March, 2010 Revelation will be available mid-March, 2010. Video, screens, interviews, previews ... . All will be coming very soon.
I'd view anything beyond that as revisionist history and face-saving.
Cryptic had made no official statement about whether Vibora Bay would be free or not before that posting. Maybe VB was always intended to be free, or maybe it was still undecided within Cryptic and Atari* at the time Daeke was fired. If we ever find out the truth, it'll probably be years after this game sunsets or Cryptic goes belly-up. Until then, all we have is vaguely-informed conjecture. Given the legal entanglements and timing of the original announcement after Daeke's forum bomb, this was the closest thing to a clean way out of a PR mess as Cryptic could find.
*: Based on the tales of Atari's stewardship of Cryptic, I'd guess that Cryptic intended it to be free, Atari wanted to charge for it, and Daeke unintentionally handed Cryptic a "win" in the argument.
Choose your enemies carefully, because they will define you / Make them interesting, because in some ways they will mind you
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
i have no idea if he was responsible for all the ideas that never got developped. but if it was, i prefer to have fewer one but develop them and not leave them like that.
This is one of the things that so so many MMO devs don't understand... MMOs require constant maintenance and updates to remain successfull. A complete dev team is required full time for a successfull MMO, even if said "complete" dev team is a small team. Its understandable to hire on a much larger team for the initial developmet and large content updates/expansions, but a fully functional complete dev team must remain on hand full time to keep the game running for years to come. If the reason of "we don't have a dev to do that rigth now" is ever used then time to hire someone full time t fill that gap. MMOs are not like other games. The mentality of "hire a team to make the game then let them all go after launch" is the exact reason why there are so many MMOs floating around that are never updated, have bugs that are never fixed, and are completly unsuccessfull... It honestly would ot suprise me if several of the issues with such MMOs were intentinally made or left unfixed by their dev team for the simple reason that absolutely no one on the team was ever going to stay so no one really had the invested interest to insure the game actually worked 100% propperly... it happens, sure they may get a massive pay check for the project, but they know they are going to be out of a job agan for an unknown amount of time once the game launches. Intentionally made/ignored bugs happen as a vailed attemped to squeeze a couple extra months of pay out of the job, and sometimes it is successfull. Having atleast one complete fulltime dev team insures that such shinanigans don't happen, and insures that the game can and will get much needed updates and fixes as time progresses.
Exactly. The CoH devs had horror stories of going into code and finding notes like "do not touch this, it will break bases, talk to *Person*" and the note will have a 2003-4 date on it and the person left shortly before game launch.
And we've seen similar things here in CO. Systems that have been long broken (some since they debuted). And no devs brought it want to go anywhere near them. And it ESPECIALLY sucks when these systems gate content.
As angry as NCSoft made people with the closure of CoH, at least they understood that you can't simply pop the game out and then move on to the next thing.
And as for the fiction that VB was "always meant to be free".
* Vibora Bay Becomes Revelation The expansion formerly known as Vibora Bay has a new, more descriptive name: Champions Online – Revelation! We’ll be talking quite a bit more about it in the coming weeks. * It’s Free! We heard our community and we acted. Champions Online – Revelation will now be available to everyone at no extra charge. That is a free expansion pack for all Champions Online players. * A True Expansion Champions Online – Revelation is a full-fledged expansion. It’s a brand new way for you and your friends to enjoy the game together. * March, 2010 Revelation will be available mid-March, 2010. Video, screens, interviews, previews ... . All will be coming very soon.
I'd view anything beyond that as revisionist history and face-saving.
* Vibora Bay Becomes Revelation The expansion formerly known as Vibora Bay has a new, more descriptive name: Champions Online – Revelation! We’ll be talking quite a bit more about it in the coming weeks. * It’s Free! We heard our community and we acted. Champions Online – Revelation will now be available to everyone at no extra charge. That is a free expansion pack for all Champions Online players. * A True Expansion Champions Online – Revelation is a full-fledged expansion. It’s a brand new way for you and your friends to enjoy the game together. * March, 2010 Revelation will be available mid-March, 2010. Video, screens, interviews, previews ... . All will be coming very soon.
I'd view anything beyond that as revisionist history and face-saving.
Cryptic had made no official statement about whether Vibora Bay would be free or not before that posting. Maybe VB was always intended to be free, or maybe it was still undecided within Cryptic and Atari* at the time Daeke was fired. If we ever find out the truth, it'll probably be years after this game sunsets or Cryptic goes belly-up. Until then, all we have is vaguely-informed conjecture. Given the legal entanglements and timing of the original announcement after Daeke's forum bomb, this was the closest thing to a clean way out of a PR mess as Cryptic could find.
*: Based on the tales of Atari's stewardship of Cryptic, I'd guess that Cryptic intended it to be free, Atari wanted to charge for it, and Daeke unintentionally handed Cryptic a "win" in the argument.
Knowing the history of Cryptic I don't believe they intended it to be free.
At CoX, Jack effectively DID "control everything" by controlling the purse-strings. He seemed to be under the impression that you create a game and then fire most of the employees, because you're never going to have to improve or repair anything, right? Skeleton dev crews don't get a chance to do much.
This is obviously where CoH players know very little of the behind the scenes. Jack did not control the purse strings, and in fact most of the problems with CoH before Cryptic sold the IP was NCSoft would always butt heads with them over creative differences. Plain and simple. NCSoft controlled the purse strings in the end, and determined how finances would work. Jack had to decide what to do with the resources he was given. He was in the unenviable position and history repeated itself quite well with Atari to. Now there is a company you should hate because Atari literally expected Champions to pump out money and they wanted development stopped post launch.I heard the same of STO. Atari had no experience with MMOs. Their bread and butter were those games you see in video arcades at the mall. Those don't get updated... ever. The only time the game code gets updated is if it gets ported to a new platform. And that's apparently what Atari wanted CO and STO to be....
What history? When has Cryptic EVER done a paid expansion?
Does City of Villains count? You could buy and play it separately from City of Heroes, leading to the exquisite torture of the English language that was the word "expansh-alone". Anything that wasn't strictly redside (PvE zones, classes, power sets) came in an Issue update to CoH. So, to answer my own question, City of Villains does NOT count. Cryptic never charged for any Issues of CoH, though, no matter the size. And, of course, the publisher always has a hand in those decisions. Was that the usual model for NCSoft subscription-based games? I'm trying to think of another hybrid expansion/stand-alone release like CoV, and nothing comes to mind.
Choose your enemies carefully, because they will define you / Make them interesting, because in some ways they will mind you
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
"And what context is that? He was right. Like it or not, he wasn't throwing CO or STO under the bus, he was being to the point. Unfortunately, Champions doesn't make the money that STO does to have a turn around like it did. And you can hate that point, out of context as you made it, but he is correct. They goofed up with Champions and STO. And unfortunately, no matter what Jack may have wanted to do, if Champions doesn't make the money, the bean counters won't see justifying giving CO a large staff. We can hop up and down all day long about what they need to do, and we can say that the other games owe us this and that, but you still have to justify the budget to the bean counters at the end.
That's always been one of Jack's qualities I respected. People may not like hearing it at times, but at least he was honest and claimed responsibility for screw ups. I prefer direct honesty over people that just keep saying things like "I need to check into that" or "Things are going great" even though the house is burning down around you."
Ah screw it, Hate when the quoting breaks on me. Most time I quote someone thing breaks, So frustrating. This happened twice to me, one a few months ago and now happens again. Urgh!
"I'll never look back I've got no regrets Cause time doesn't wait for me I choose to go my own way."
Atari had no experience with MMOs. Their bread and butter were those games you see in video arcades at the mall. Those don't get updated... ever.
In point of fact, the company we know today as "Atari" has no real connection with the successful videogame company founded by Nolan Bushnell. The name was acquired somehow (still trying to untangle that timeline) by GT Interactive, a former subsidiary of Good Times, a videotape company. In 1999, French holding company Infogrames SA acquired GT Interactive; in 2003 they renamed themselves Atari SA. In 2013, American subsidiary Atari Inc. filed for bankruptcy, with the stated intent of severing themselves from the now-moribund Atari SA/Infogrames. (Seriously, an examination of Infogrames/Atari's moves over the past decade or so makes it look like they're trying to drive the company into the ground and below.)
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
Comments
How reliable this is, I have no idea - but let's face it, Cryptic pulled some stinkers back in the day. This wouldn't have been beyond the pale for them.
All that said, I'm looking forward to seeing what Jack can do with, for, or to DCUO (if anything can be done at this late stage). I never understood the Jack hate. Granted, I didn't start playing CoH until a couple of months after CoV launched, but I didn't much feel the impact of the lack of Jack after Cryptic sold CoX to NCSoft.
For therealted ...
Here's a piece from Engadget about a talk Jack gave at GDC in 2008, https://www.engadget.com/2008/02/22/gdc08-jack-emmert-on-cryptics-success-and-failure/ . If you read this first and follow up with the Eurogamer interview I linked to above, you can get a feel for how Jack himself felt about development and interaction with the players. Of note, in the Engadget piece, he says that games should released with all major features in place. If they aren't there at launch, they will never be accepted. Note: he based opinion on PvP in CoH which released buggy and unbalanced with stubs in place for future expansion (tournaments and rankings) that were never added -- a theme that would be revisited with CO.
Later on, he talks about the dev team's lack of experience in developing a balanced game since, initially, they aimed for fun. When players then started min / maxing, things went pear-shaped. When the nerfs arrived (usually timed with major content patches), Jack first hoped that players wouldn't mind so much since they'd be too busy playing new content to care. But, as any MMO developer since will tell you, it's best to nerf before you release and buff afterwards. If you were around for the Regen nerfs of Issues 1 - 4 and the global defense nerf of I5, you'd get a sense for how upset he could make a crowd. Also, many of his posts tended towards condescension. During his days as CoH's lead, he never really gave up on his goal of balancing around fun. For one example, (and to paraphrase slightly), when the players pointed out that Force Bubble was largely useless (it radially pushed mobs out from the caster to 50') since it disrupted AoEs, his response was, "But, wow, what an effect!" And, indeed, it was cool looking ... until you realized that, at the time he said that, many attacks didn't have the range to go from the caster edge of the bubble.
The upshot here is that CO released feature complete, or nearly so. Unfortunately, in Jack's own words, many of the systems were unpolished or poorly executed (echoes of CoH's PvP). When players left for more polished offerings, Cryptic simply started moving staff to STO leaving many of the game's systems in a rough state for months or years.
Again, Jack learned from his mistakes. Legitimately, CO was better than CoH at release. STO was better than CO. NW topped Cryptic's previous games. What happened, however, is that Cryptic adopted an "eat what you kill" model for funding CO's development so that CO never got the resources it needed to rapidly grow past its initial rough state and retain (admittedly fickle) players. Unfortunately, you only get one chance to make a first impression.
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They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
If I did that, I'd get fired.
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
Yes, Cryptic moved people to finish STO. But that move was assuredly made easier by the slipping subscription numbers of CO. And the shift, that many of us thought was temporary, became permanent because of CO's poor showing.
The leveling patch didn't hit during pre-release. It hit on launch day. Furthermore the leveling speed was not changed, the critter difficulty was substantially increased.
Unfortunately, that's not how financing works and regardless of what people feel, since we don't know actual numbers, it still costs to maintain the game as is, even if it was receiving minimal development since they do have to pay the people that do work and maintain the game.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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Other than the short time he was important (and he really wasn't for most of COH's life) I didn't really pay him any mind.
Never understood the blind hate other COH players had for him.
Because again people need a scape goat. Didn't help that Positron and company also fostered said hate on a regular basis. I watched from the side lines as Positron would one day state how he was given a large responsibility and thank Jack for it, the next day throwing him under the bus and blaming him for problem X that I doubt jack was even involved with. That is one person I never cared for because he always seemed more of a double dealer and always kept promising stuff and never delivering on them.
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Yeah... "fired" implies that there was originally a plan to keep them longer. Hiring someone for a specific job does not require an indefinite contract.
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This is obviously where CoH players know very little of the behind the scenes. Jack did not control the purse strings, and in fact most of the problems with CoH before Cryptic sold the IP was NCSoft would always butt heads with them over creative differences. Plain and simple. NCSoft controlled the purse strings in the end, and determined how finances would work. Jack had to decide what to do with the resources he was given. He was in the unenviable position and history repeated itself quite well with Atari to. Now there is a company you should hate because Atari literally expected Champions to pump out money and they wanted development stopped post launch.
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And we've seen similar things here in CO. Systems that have been long broken (some since they debuted). And no devs brought it want to go anywhere near them. And it ESPECIALLY sucks when these systems gate content.
As angry as NCSoft made people with the closure of CoH, at least they understood that you can't simply pop the game out and then move on to the next thing.
And as for the fiction that VB was "always meant to be free". I'd view anything beyond that as revisionist history and face-saving.
"Champions-Online and Star Trek Online contained hundreds of hours of mediocre content!"
and "nothing was polished".
--Jack Emmert
Cryptic had made no official statement about whether Vibora Bay would be free or not before that posting. Maybe VB was always intended to be free, or maybe it was still undecided within Cryptic and Atari* at the time Daeke was fired. If we ever find out the truth, it'll probably be years after this game sunsets or Cryptic goes belly-up. Until then, all we have is vaguely-informed conjecture. Given the legal entanglements and timing of the original announcement after Daeke's forum bomb, this was the closest thing to a clean way out of a PR mess as Cryptic could find.
*: Based on the tales of Atari's stewardship of Cryptic, I'd guess that Cryptic intended it to be free, Atari wanted to charge for it, and Daeke unintentionally handed Cryptic a "win" in the argument.
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
Thanks for finding this. I had been looking too.
*: Based on the tales of Atari's stewardship of Cryptic, I'd guess that Cryptic intended it to be free, Atari wanted to charge for it, and Daeke unintentionally handed Cryptic a "win" in the argument.
Knowing the history of Cryptic I don't believe they intended it to be free.
This is obviously where CoH players know very little of the behind the scenes. Jack did not control the purse strings, and in fact most of the problems with CoH before Cryptic sold the IP was NCSoft would always butt heads with them over creative differences. Plain and simple. NCSoft controlled the purse strings in the end, and determined how finances would work. Jack had to decide what to do with the resources he was given. He was in the unenviable position and history repeated itself quite well with Atari to. Now there is a company you should hate because Atari literally expected Champions to pump out money and they wanted development stopped post launch.I heard the same of STO. Atari had no experience with MMOs. Their bread and butter were those games you see in video arcades at the mall. Those don't get updated... ever. The only time the game code gets updated is if it gets ported to a new platform. And that's apparently what Atari wanted CO and STO to be....
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Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
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Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
"And what context is that? He was right. Like it or not, he wasn't throwing CO or STO under the bus, he was being to the point. Unfortunately, Champions doesn't make the money that STO does to have a turn around like it did. And you can hate that point, out of context as you made it, but he is correct. They goofed up with Champions and STO. And unfortunately, no matter what Jack may have wanted to do, if Champions doesn't make the money, the bean counters won't see justifying giving CO a large staff. We can hop up and down all day long about what they need to do, and we can say that the other games owe us this and that, but you still have to justify the budget to the bean counters at the end.
That's always been one of Jack's qualities I respected. People may not like hearing it at times, but at least he was honest and claimed responsibility for screw ups. I prefer direct honesty over people that just keep saying things like "I need to check into that" or "Things are going great" even though the house is burning down around you."
Ah screw it, Hate when the quoting breaks on me. Most time I quote someone thing breaks, So frustrating. This happened twice to me, one a few months ago and now happens again. Urgh!
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