Form Power Changes

morigosa · May 2016

The devs have spoken: they don't want form powers to feel like "second passives". However, the changes they've made to try to implement this goal don't, imo, fix the problem - they just make using certain forms increasingly clunky.

Now, part of this stated goal is a ship already sailed: Forms are one of three largely-mandatory power types that you typically set and then just leave running. Those three being passives, forms, and energy unlocks. There are a few sorts of builds that can skip the energy unlock, but skipping either passive or form is just not a good idea. There is no reasonable way to fix this without gutting form powers entirely - which would, among other things, require a rebalance of Cosmics, event bosses, TA, rampages, and anything else that was designed around current levels of player damage output. I rather doubt that's happening (though it honestly might be a good thing for the game.)

So let's look at the other ways in which forms act like passives: that, when you can keep them at max stacks, they just provide passive bonuses that stay around all the time. This seems to be where the devs are trying to "fix" things, by making it harder to maintain form stacks.

Which is where we have problems, because not all forms are created equal in terms of what's required to build up and maintain those stacks - and so far, the changes have exclusively gone after forms that are already harder to work with. Forms that stack quickly and easily (Concentration, Form of the Tempest on a high level character with a decent crit chance, etc.) are very different powers from forms that have excessive internal cooldowns and require niche power use to trigger (Enrage, and of course Manipulator). And then of course there's Inertial Dampening Field, which really is just a second passive.

Unfortunately, I don't have any good ideas for how to make the dev's stated goals work, which is why I'm not posting this over in the Suggestions section of the forum. But I figured it'd be a good idea to open a discussion thread, and maybe someone will come up with some really clever idea.

Unknown · May 2016

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squirrelloid · May 2016

Ship sailed. Get over it and move on, and stop making it increasingly hard to be anything but a concentration monkey.

Unknown · May 2016

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riverocean · May 2016

Mountain out of a mole hill. It will still be be possible to get good use out of forms. You just might have to do something crazy like *gasp* rank your form. But for the most part, even that won't be necessary. Most builds will be able to easily build up stacks. The duration of how long the stacks last has just been adjusted. And quite frankly, it's a minor nerf at worst.

People already do insane amounts of dps as it is. And will still be able to do so.

morigosa · May 2016

riverocean said:
Mountain out of a mole hill. It will still be be possible to get good use out of forms. You just might have to do something crazy like *gasp* rank your form. But for the most part, even that won't be necessary. Most builds will be able to easily build up stacks. The duration of how long the stacks last has just been adjusted. And quite frankly, it's a minor nerf at worst.

People already do insane amounts of dps as it is. And will still be able to do so.

While I don't like the change, I actually agree with this analysis (aside from the 'rank your form' bit). Which is why I posted this thread: the change they're making and their stated goal for that change don't line up, and I'm hoping someone can come up with some idea that, y'know, actually works instead of just makes things clunkier without really changing anything.

roughbearmattach · May 2016

Much like the change to Manipulator, it will be hard to maintain full stacks on a form with a character who normally only uses one of the required powers.

My controller toon, that uses three control powers in rotation, never has issues maxing out and keeping Manipulator at 8 stacks. My TA main tank has two knock powers used in his melee rotation, so keeping Enrage going simply won't be an issue, since he already uses a knock once every 7 seconds or so.

Builds that rely on a single power (particularly with a cooldown) will find form changes tougher to deal with. This is especially true if the power is there simply to "proc XXXX". That statement is on build descriptions frequently now; just include this one power at R1 so you can proc your form.

The devs trend this year has been to make Powersets and Frameworks better when used together, and not quite as good when going a la carte. You can still make a FF toon with whatever mix of powers you wish, but it might not work quite as well as one relying more on one set.

We are beginning to see more tradeoffs between versatility and big numbers.

Unknown · May 2016

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squirrelloid · May 2016

roughbearmattach said:
Much like the change to Manipulator, it will be hard to maintain full stacks on a form with a character who normally only uses one of the required powers.

My controller toon, that uses three control powers in rotation, never has issues maxing out and keeping Manipulator at 8 stacks. My TA main tank has two knock powers used in his melee rotation, so keeping Enrage going simply won't be an issue, since he already uses a knock once every 7 seconds or so.

Builds that rely on a single power (particularly with a cooldown) will find form changes tougher to deal with. This is especially true if the power is there simply to "proc XXXX". That statement is on build descriptions frequently now; just include this one power at R1 so you can proc your form.

The devs trend this year has been to make Powersets and Frameworks better when used together, and not quite as good when going a la carte. You can still make a FF toon with whatever mix of powers you wish, but it might not work quite as well as one relying more on one set.

We are beginning to see more tradeoffs between versatility and big numbers.

The toons hit especially hard by these changes are ATs, who don't have the luxury of picking up more than one power which usefully stacks their toggle in many instances, or when they do, its frequently making a 'choice' into not really a choice at all. They don't get to 'just take another appropriate power'.

Devastators have few _good_ ways to stack enrage, especially after the eruption makeover that *more than tripled* its base cd.

Behemoths either end up with only one good way to stack enrage, or are required to take roomsweeper instead of thunderclap. And if they take haymaker, they have to charge it to even get a knock. (Tapped haymaker has no knock and will not stack enrage - tested). With the trend towards fights which require constant blocking even by tanks (see TA, cosmics), or mobs which knock and hold spam (see nightmare invasion), charging powers is unreliable at best.

(Manipulator of course has the additional problem that the more often you use control powers, the less effective they are).

And none of this accounts for the extreme disparity of concentration's ease of stacking (hit with a range power from a distance OR charge more than 50% OR maintain more than 50%) compared to a toggle like enrage which requires a specific effect.

I also think the trend towards 'cross-framework toons are dirty cheaters' is a terrible trend. It already required more thought to build cross-framework so you ended up with something that worked out well. There is no reason to penalize people who want to build cross-framework beyond that. Just because the devs group particular things in a powerset doesn't mean a build which crosses several frameworks doesn't have a theme that's just as valid.

jellycupsowbug · May 2016

roughbearmattach said:

The devs trend this year has been to make Powersets and Frameworks better when used together, and not quite as good when going a la carte. You can still make a FF toon with whatever mix of powers you wish, but it might not work quite as well as one relying more on one set.

This is the opposite direction of the one that drew me to this game. Granted, the synergy changes aren't brutally restrictive, but I'd like my aesthetic power choices to able to perform well, rather than be limited to something resembling the Automaton AT, (which is viable, but very awkward).

To make matters worse, the powers that need more in-set synergy aren't the ones that are getting it. Bestial was already one of the most effective, and most complete power sets. Force and Celestial are a mess, and barely survive without taking powers from other sets.

pantagruel01 · May 2016

morigosa said:
There is no reasonable way to fix this without gutting form powers entirely - which would, among other things, require a rebalance of Cosmics, event bosses, TA, rampages, and anything else that was designed around current levels of player damage output.

Not really. Very few things have actual challenging dps (or hps) tests, so mostly you could accomplish the same challenges only a bit slower.

morigosa · May 2016

pantagruel01 said:
Very few things have actual challenging dps (or hps) tests, so mostly you could accomplish the same challenges only a bit slower.

Key word there is "mostly". Cosmics, TA, Rampages, some event bosses (most notably the anniversary Mechanon event), and Duratok/Ironclad from Forum Malvanum would all need to see adjustments, however. And there might be a few others I'm forgetting about.

If the devs are willing to go through and make those adjustments, I'd be happy to say goodbye to most of the form powers; they take up a power slot and don't really do anything interesting.

pantagruel01 · May 2016

morigosa said:

pantagruel01 said:
Very few things have actual challenging dps (or hps) tests, so mostly you could accomplish the same challenges only a bit slower.
Key word there is "mostly". Cosmics, TA, Rampages, some event bosses (most notably the anniversary Mechanon event), and Duratok/Ironclad from Forum Malvanum would all need to see adjustments, however. And there might be a few others I'm forgetting about.

Qwyjibo's hearts would need adjustment, and Teleiosaurus' regeneration might. TA doesn't have any notable dps tests, though the genetic siphon is a challenging hps test and might be rough without Compassion. I'm not aware of any DPS tests in Rampages, and the only significant HPS test (Frosticus) isn't really all that significant. Anniversary mechanon would be a problem but it needs some adjustment anyway, as does FM.

Unknown · May 2016

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aiqa · May 2016

pantagruel01 said:

morigosa said:

pantagruel01 said:
Very few things have actual challenging dps (or hps) tests, so mostly you could accomplish the same challenges only a bit slower.
Key word there is "mostly". Cosmics, TA, Rampages, some event bosses (most notably the anniversary Mechanon event), and Duratok/Ironclad from Forum Malvanum would all need to see adjustments, however. And there might be a few others I'm forgetting about.
Qwyjibo's hearts would need adjustment, and Teleiosaurus' regeneration might. TA doesn't have any notable dps tests, though the genetic siphon is a challenging hps test and might be rough without Compassion. I'm not aware of any DPS tests in Rampages, and the only significant HPS test (Frosticus) isn't really all that significant. Anniversary mechanon would be a problem but it needs some adjustment anyway, as does FM.

If old content being trivialized by high dps is a consideration, than by that same reasoning new content being made slow by lowered dps is just as important.

Also there is far more than just some health that needs to be looked at if forms were removed.

There are very few sets that can spam their attacks without energy concerns without a form, but they do exist, and those are aren't the ones that need any help to begin with.

Pvp might not be a big concern, but if it has any importance, without forms (and nimble mind) you will be very hard pressed to kill anyone.

Then there is adjusting all the powers that now depend on certain form stacks to be present.

And since healing would get a huge nerf rebalancing all the damage from all the newly buffed cosmics.

Then there is the backlash of a huge nerf like that.

So all in all I don't really think it's worth the effort at the moment, like we've seen with the cosmics it's fully doable to make challenging content for the current playercharacter performance.

spinnytop · May 2016

I like the idea that forms are going to become more of an "adrenaline mechanic" now. So long as you keep up the intensity in battle, your damage remains high - if you slow down or have to back off for some reason, your damage gets lower again. It rewards players for figuring out how they can keep up their offense. Previous to this change, your 8 stacks were just granted to you for nothing.

I'm excited to see what they do for Concentration. Since it currently is hands down the easiest to keep stacked I assume it's going to see the most change.

jonsills · May 2016

gradii said:
I dont have the rank points to rank a form.

This seems, ah, improbable. At least, I certainly haven't had any problem ranking a form on just about all my toons - even Death Metal, who only recently pinged 21, has rank 2 on his Enrage.

Unknown · May 2016

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roughbearmattach · May 2016

I enjoyed the mass-heal click of Ascension, and the targeted attack version of Cloak of the Infinite Planes.
Things change.

I said my peace on many changes. Once in a great while, some change goes the way I would like, but usually it doesn't. I've adjusted builds accordingly.

Unknown · May 2016

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spinnytop · May 2016

Actually now that I think about it, Concentration likely isn't going to be changed at all, since it's already 20 seconds.

riverocean · May 2016

spinnytop said:
I like the idea that forms are going to become more of an "adrenaline mechanic" now. So long as you keep up the intensity in battle, your damage remains high - if you slow down or have to back off for some reason, your damage gets lower again.

DING! And the prize goes to the Amazing Catgirl!!!

morigosa · May 2016

So here's an actual idea to accomplish the dev's stated goals: make the duration vary proportionately with power rank & inversely with number of stacks - and make it so that the duration expiring removes one stack instead of all stacks.

So for example, rank 1 enrage might last indefinitely at one stack, 40 seconds at two, all the way down to 6 seconds at eight stacks. So that eighth stack would fall off a lot unless you were just spamming knockback powers - but having it fall off would just drop you down to seven stacks, where you'd have several more seconds to re-apply before it'd drop to six stacks, and so on.

Make rank 2 a 50% increase to durations (and two stacks lasting indefinitely), and rank 3 a 100% increase, so rank 3 enrage would have a 12 second window to try to hold on to that eighth stack.

Then apply that same thing to every stacking form (excluding Manipulator, because really it doesn't need more nerfs, but including Defiance), and presto: it's not just a passive damage bonus anymore.

pantagruel01 · May 2016

morigosa said:
So here's an actual idea to accomplish the dev's stated goals: make the duration vary proportionately with power rank & inversely with number of stacks - and make it so that the duration expiring removes one stack instead of all stacks.

There's an easier way of accomplishing that: currently, any stack procs both add a new stack and refresh the duration on all existing stacks; remove the refresh and things will fall off unless you spam your stack building effects.

However, is that really the way the game should work? It would basically mean that you can't use a given form unless your primary attack can trigger that form, which means a lot of melee builds are stuck with Form of the Tempest as the only viable option.

kamokami · May 2016

Keeping up Enrage is not hard at all on pts. The difference is that now you have to watch it and you didn't before. Just go try it out

sigmaseven0 · May 2016

jonsills said:

This seems, ah, improbable. At least, I certainly haven't had any problem ranking a form on just about all my toons - even Death Metal, who only recently pinged 21, has rank 2 on his Enrage.

Improbable is a bad choice of words here... any way. I'll just leave this here from the PTS thread in question.

sigmaseven0 said:

Bug?
Rank 3 enrage (all forms?) reset to 0 instead of 3 when form duration expires.
This has been bothering me for while, but now its even more annoying. I went on PTS to test the enrage nerf assuming that I would not be hit as bad because I use rank 3 enrage. I tested by soloing Nightmare portals. I immediately noticed that enrage would expire and completely reset between Nightmare spawns. I would then have the choice of just standing there and waiting for the stacks to slowly auto-stack back to 3 or just jump in and stack them the old fashioned way (I may as well do the latter).

Before the duration nerf, this would happen occasionally, but not be that noticeable. Now it happens constantly and functionally defeats the purpose of having a rank 3 form. I didn't spend 4 advantage points to have 0 stack at the start of a fight.

If this cant be fixed, then ranking up enrage (forms) needs to give duration instead of stacks.

If you spend advantage points to put a form at rank 3, you should never have less than 3 stacks and you should NEVER have 0 stacks.

pantagruel01 · May 2016

sigmaseven0 said:
If you spend advantage points to put a form at rank 3, you should never have less than 3 stacks and you should NEVER have 0 stacks.

Because stacks aren't owned by specific effects, the only way to have the automatic stacks without having it just permanently refresh your stacks to 8 is by having a stack only applied when you are at zero stacks. This means you drop to 0 stacks when your stacks expire and then jump back to (rank).

They could fix that by removing automatic stacks completely, reducing the stack cap, and giving an inherent bonus to the toggle itself that matches the stacks it would have given.

aiqa · May 2016

None of the other forms really require any paying attention. If there are any changes to CO that require more paying attention, I'd prefer more engaging fights over paying attention to juggling a few short duration buffs and status effects.

spinnytop · May 2016

aiqa said:
None of the other forms really require any paying attention. If there are any changes to CO that require more paying attention, I'd prefer more engaging fights over paying attention to juggling a few short duration buffs and status effects.

The change to Enrage's duration isn't going to cause this though. I mean damn, if someone's enrage build was based around using a power less than once every 20 seconds to proc enrage stacks, then they tried really really hard to create that situation. Methinks they might see better success just using a form that more of their attacks would naturally proc, and let's be honest I get the feeling the only reason they're so hell bent on continuing to use Enrage is because they're strength primary and don't wanna drop the meta.

I think there's a lot of hyperbole at play here - nothing so far has shown that forms are going to turn into "juggling a few short duration buffs and status effects". Next thing you know people are going to start talking as if forms are going to be removed from the game... oh wait, the thread already went there didn't it?

aiqa · May 2016

spinnytop said:

aiqa said:
None of the other forms really require any paying attention. If there are any changes to CO that require more paying attention, I'd prefer more engaging fights over paying attention to juggling a few short duration buffs and status effects.
The change to Enrage's duration isn't going to cause this though. I mean damn, if someone's enrage build was based around using a power less than once every 20 seconds to proc enrage stacks, then they tried really really hard to create that situation. Methinks they might see better success just using a form that more of their attacks would naturally proc, and let's be honest I get the feeling the only reason they're so hell bent on continuing to use Enrage is because they're strength primary and don't wanna drop the meta.

I think there's a lot of hyperbole at play here - nothing so far has shown that forms are going to turn into "juggling a few short duration buffs and status effects". Next thing you know people are going to start talking as if forms are going to be removed from the game... oh wait, the thread already went there didn't it?

I already gave examples of very normal HW attack rotations that could easily run into problems on the PTS thread.
There was even a knock added to one of the Arc of Ruin advantages now (which doesn't work for my build, but ah well, I'll manage).

spinnytop · May 2016

aiqa said:

I already gave examples of very normal HW attack rotations that could easily run into problems on the PTS thread.
There was even a knock added to one of the Arc of Ruin advantages now (which doesn't work for my build, but ah well, I'll manage).

Yeah, thanks to that change I don't think my HW character now has a single attack that doesn't knock in some fashion

pantagruel01 · May 2016

aiqa said:
None of the other forms really require any paying attention.

It is quite easy to maintain Enrage on a build that has a knock or a bleed attached to a primary power, otherwise it's a hassle. Form of the Swordsman is the same; Form of the tiger is dependent on your primary power being one that you commonly charge, so it's about the same level of effort as the enrage setups. The only truly mindless options are Form of the Tempest (most builds crit often enough to maintain it trivially), Concentration on a non-tank (it can be tricky to trigger with a tank because of blocking and the target's fondness for getting in your face) and Compassion (why do you use a +heal form if you don't plan to heal?).

squirrelloid · May 2016

pantagruel01 said:

aiqa said:
None of the other forms really require any paying attention.
It is quite easy to maintain Enrage on a build that has a knock or a bleed attached to a primary power, otherwise it's a hassle. Form of the Swordsman is the same; Form of the tiger is dependent on your primary power being one that you commonly charge, so it's about the same level of effort as the enrage setups. The only truly mindless options are Form of the Tempest (most builds crit often enough to maintain it trivially), Concentration on a non-tank (it can be tricky to trigger with a tank because of blocking and the target's fondness for getting in your face) and Compassion (why do you use a +heal form if you don't plan to heal?).

And if the devs were being reasonable, the trivial to stack forms would stay at 20s, and the other forms would have longer durations to reflect the less common trigger conditions.

So:
Compassion, Concentration, FotT: 20s
FotS, FotTiger, Enrage: 30-40s
Manipulator: 60s

Slot other forms in as appropriate. (I'd even be tempted to increase FotT to 25s because it's primarily used by melee toons, which makes it mildly more difficult to maintain stacks than concentration).

It's not just about 'i'm in a continuous fight' stacking, it's also about 'okay, this fight just ended, how much effort is it to start another fight and trigger a stack before my stacks fall off' AND 'i'm fighting with a team, my power(s) which triggers stacks has a cd, and my ally just killed the enemy i was using it on so it went on cd without a stack'.

aiqa · May 2016

spinnytop said:

aiqa said:

I already gave examples of very normal HW attack rotations that could easily run into problems on the PTS thread.
There was even a knock added to one of the Arc of Ruin advantages now (which doesn't work for my build, but ah well, I'll manage).
Yeah, thanks to that change I don't think my HW character now has a single attack that doesn't knock in some fashion

It would work for me except for on that one adv.
Arc of Ruin is a cool and strong attack, which can be used to good effect to actually kill mobs.
Having to leave that as r1, just to make sure I can reliably keep up enrage with my AoE isn't doing it for me.

spinnytop · May 2016

I actually wouldn't mind Concentration being lowered to 10 seconds to reflect how much easier it is to keep stacked. That way being in non-optimal circumstances might actually mean something, and you might actually have to engage in "concentrated fire" to keep your damage high.

I mean if I really really had my way all the other forms would be 10 seconds and concentration would be 5, and I would lower the cooldown between getting stacks to make the whole thing feel faster-paced, but I doubt they're thinking of going that far with it.

squirrelloid · May 2016

spinnytop said:
I actually wouldn't mind Concentration being lowered to 10 seconds to reflect how much easier it is to keep stacked. That way being in non-optimal circumstances might actually mean something, and you might actually have to engage in "concentrated fire" to keep your damage high.

I mean if I really really had my way all the other forms would be 10 seconds and concentration would be 5, and I would lower the cooldown between getting stacks to make the whole thing feel faster-paced, but I doubt they're thinking of going that far with it.

Manipulator is barely useable now. 10s stacks would pretty much mean you'd never have more than 4 stacks (with R3 manipulator).

sigmaseven0 · May 2016

pantagruel01 said:

They could fix that by removing automatic stacks completely, reducing the stack cap, and giving an inherent bonus to the toggle itself that matches the stacks it would have given.

Well, whatever logistics are invalided, they need to fix it.

Power House Trainer: Hay put some advantage points in your form It will give you free stacks!
Noob hero: OK thanks!
[form stacks drop to zero rite before entering combat]
Power House Trainer:

spinnytop · May 2016

squirrelloid said:

Manipulator is barely useable now. 10s stacks would pretty much mean you'd never have more than 4 stacks (with R3 manipulator).

Manipulator shouldn't have been a stacking power to begin with. I personally would have just made it apply an effect to anything you use a hold on that increases your damage against that target for X seconds. The stacking mechanic doesn't really work well for it. That's just what I would do, maybe you disagree and think it should just get longer duration on its stacks - I think the stacking mechanic is just all wrong for the playstyle of controllers.

pantagruel01 · May 2016

spinnytop said:
Manipulator shouldn't have been a stacking power to begin with.

Yeah, "I can only get stacks by engaging in combat, and the point of this ability is to not engage in combat" seems flawed.

sigmaseven0 · May 2016

@spinnytop
That sounds fun but hard to balance.

Unknown · May 2016

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morigosa · May 2016

Posted an actual suggestion on form power mechanics over here.

kamokami · May 2016

It's not a big deal people. Forms are not going away. They don't need overhauls or anything massive done to them because of this change. You can keep Enrage at 8 stacks pretty easily on pts. Stop blowing things out of proportion and fantasizing about how this means everything will be horrible unless everything is changed.

sigmaseven0 · May 2016

kamokami said:
It's not a big deal people. Forms are not going away. They don't need overhauls or anything massive done to them because of this change. You can keep Enrage at 8 stacks pretty easily on pts. Stop blowing things out of proportion and fantasizing about how this means everything will be horrible unless everything is changed.

Don't be a pity party pooper.

roughbearmattach · May 2016

The new version of Demolish will have an advantage that Knocks.

I'm glad to see overused/overpowered powers get taken down a peg. The game simply got too easy.
Having event mobs that aren't a silly joke is nice, too.

Unknown · May 2016

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squirrelloid · May 2016

roughbearmattach said:
The new version of Demolish will have an advantage that Knocks.

I'm glad to see overused/overpowered powers get taken down a peg. The game simply got too easy.
Having event mobs that aren't a silly joke is nice, too.

gradii said:

When was demolish ever overused? I know for sure I never used it. This is just a huge nerf to behemoth ATs and not a lot else.

What gradii said. The demolish nerf makes it completely unplayable.

You can take Arc of Ruin, get 15% debuff on tap in a 360 degree area around you, or you can take demolish and get 18% debuff on one target *if* you full charge it. One of these choices is dumb, and it's not Arc of Ruin.

crypticbuxom · May 2016

More examples of a dev team that doesn't understand the game mechanics. Even with Kaiserin.

Either they don't understand it or bias is involved. It can't be neither.

Unknown · May 2016

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spinnytop · May 2016

gradii said:

When was demolish ever overused? I know for sure I never used it. This is just a huge nerf to behemoth ATs and not a lot else.

Powers aren't adjusted based on how much they're used. They're adjusted for more objective, mathematical reasons. We currently have a dev who is really good at understanding the numbers.

roughbearmattach · May 2016

gradii said:

When was demolish ever overused? I know for sure I never used it. This is just a huge nerf to behemoth ATs and not a lot else.

Enrage was the overused power I was referring to. People made builds using enrage, plus a single power (sometimes high cost, or with CD) to proc stacks. Now, that build will be harder to manage. Good.

I mentioned Demolish because it will be usable by Behemoth ATs to proc Enrage. Also good.

Form Power Changes

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