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Merc to Justice: What do you get?
spinnytop
Posts: 16,450 Arc User
So since the topic gets thrown around a lot, I decided to find out what you actually get when you upgrade from mercenary gear to justice gear. First thing I did was buy the lower tier gear, which cost me in total 183G. Most of that expense was the Merc gear. I didn't buy any mods, but by the look of the exchange that would run you another 60-80G. Since you can run content to get these things, that puts the expense somewhere between 0 to 243G, approximately.
When it came to slotting, I mirrored the stats on my own gear in the lower tier gear, except that I used Rank 5 mods in all slots - this wasn't too much of a downgrade since I run a mix of rank 5 and 6 mods in my gear. I slapped each set on, recorded the stats, and this is what I got.
Super Stats
Dex: 183 > 288
Int: 88 > 113
Ego: 434 > 483
Everything else stayed the same. My dex went up more than anything else because that's what I have slotted in my secondaries, and since I took the +20 secondaries so I could mirror the stats of my TA secondaries, that's where the most significant gain was seen. In total, upgrading to the TA secondaries gains you a net increase of 105 stat points; when it comes to super stats, TA secondaries are a much bigger deal than Justice gear.
Damage
Offense: 219.4 > 509.6
Attack Damage: 3186 > 3493
A total increase in actual damage of 9%. It's not nothing... but it's not astounding either. I think folks would be upset if your damage increased by anything less than this for the effort you have to put into getting the gear, and it's only this much thanks to the wardicator loop.
Crit: 33.5% > 36.9%
Severity: 107.8% > 121.3%
I'm actually surprised how much severity I got from +2.5 critical severity rating on the offense primary. About 2% came from increased ego, and the rest was from just that rating. Not bad. Crit chance went up by 3%, nothing to write home about.
Defense
Hit Points: No change
Since I don't stat con, there was no change here. However for someone who does stat con, the TA secondaries could net you an extra 1500 hit points, not bad.
Defense: 199.1 > 312.3
Mitigation: 32% > 43%
11% less damage taken, again I think folks would be upset if after all that effort they didn't get at least this much. Again, this is primarily thanks to the guardicator loop inflating the actual gains between offense and defense. It's not nothing, but it's not astounding either. It takes my effective hit points from 4955 to 5450.
Dodge: 26% > 31.4%
Avoidance: 57.1% > 51.3%
I actually lost some avoidance here, trading 6% avoidance for 5% dodge chance, due to the way the dodge becomes spread between dodge and avoidance on the justice gear. Nothing really significant going on here.
Other than this, nothing changed. So, does 9% more damage and 11% more mitigation take someone from "average player" to "elite status"? More importantly, is that increase worth the effort of getting Justice Gear to you? Now that you know the actual numbers involved you can make a more informed decision about what you'll spend your time doing.
When it came to slotting, I mirrored the stats on my own gear in the lower tier gear, except that I used Rank 5 mods in all slots - this wasn't too much of a downgrade since I run a mix of rank 5 and 6 mods in my gear. I slapped each set on, recorded the stats, and this is what I got.
Super Stats
Dex: 183 > 288
Int: 88 > 113
Ego: 434 > 483
Everything else stayed the same. My dex went up more than anything else because that's what I have slotted in my secondaries, and since I took the +20 secondaries so I could mirror the stats of my TA secondaries, that's where the most significant gain was seen. In total, upgrading to the TA secondaries gains you a net increase of 105 stat points; when it comes to super stats, TA secondaries are a much bigger deal than Justice gear.
Damage
Offense: 219.4 > 509.6
Attack Damage: 3186 > 3493
A total increase in actual damage of 9%. It's not nothing... but it's not astounding either. I think folks would be upset if your damage increased by anything less than this for the effort you have to put into getting the gear, and it's only this much thanks to the wardicator loop.
Crit: 33.5% > 36.9%
Severity: 107.8% > 121.3%
I'm actually surprised how much severity I got from +2.5 critical severity rating on the offense primary. About 2% came from increased ego, and the rest was from just that rating. Not bad. Crit chance went up by 3%, nothing to write home about.
Defense
Hit Points: No change
Since I don't stat con, there was no change here. However for someone who does stat con, the TA secondaries could net you an extra 1500 hit points, not bad.
Defense: 199.1 > 312.3
Mitigation: 32% > 43%
11% less damage taken, again I think folks would be upset if after all that effort they didn't get at least this much. Again, this is primarily thanks to the guardicator loop inflating the actual gains between offense and defense. It's not nothing, but it's not astounding either. It takes my effective hit points from 4955 to 5450.
Dodge: 26% > 31.4%
Avoidance: 57.1% > 51.3%
I actually lost some avoidance here, trading 6% avoidance for 5% dodge chance, due to the way the dodge becomes spread between dodge and avoidance on the justice gear. Nothing really significant going on here.
Other than this, nothing changed. So, does 9% more damage and 11% more mitigation take someone from "average player" to "elite status"? More importantly, is that increase worth the effort of getting Justice Gear to you? Now that you know the actual numbers involved you can make a more informed decision about what you'll spend your time doing.
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The stat gain is a pretty big deal, due to its interactions with energy generation on toggle forms and EUs. I've had several builds where going to justice gear was sufficient to ignore my energy builder entirely. That's a big deal.
The bonuses may also allow you to move around other stats or free up mods for other purposes.
Ie, a strict numerical comparison doesn't capture the sea change in build performance that can occur when you cross new threshholds of performance or get sufficiently ahead of a previously crossed threshhold that you can dedicate fewer resources to meeting it.
Also: what has this done to your spec bonuses? There's crit chance there which doesn't show up on the character sheet for some specs, and other bonuses that vary with SS which might not be reflected on the character sheet. Those can also be a big deal.
Yes, the TA secondaries can give a pretty good chunk of stat bonuses. Justice Gear not so much. From the number of TA secondaries sitting in my hideout bank, I would say that they're a lot quicker to farm than Justice Gear.
I think anyone reading this is aware of this already, so I didn't really feel the need to mention it. All spec bonuses that I get are reflected on the character sheet in full.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Not sure if this supports your claim or just provides an alternative: some folks make different (or perhaps better) use of the extra slots when going from 3 slot to 4 slot gear. Examples would be hit point stackers, defense stackers (esp with ward/guardicator loop), crit stackers. Another interesting example are folks (my own main toon) are builds that are true hybrids, being able to heal, DPS, and having high defenses: the flexibility of a three more core mods can help these builds go from meh to pretty good.
For most builds though, there will only be a small gains (usually less than 10% performance), as you point out.
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He just has Justice gear and mostly rank 5 mods and AOPM. I'm using the classic STR/DEX/CON + Guardicator loop on this build. He can very nearly tank Gravitar with the AOPM support passive. His defense is at 399 with minimal CON slotting (418) and Armadillo Secondaries.
Defense may look like it's not mitigating much on paper. But in practice any defense over 300 makes a huge difference in build survival. Also your builds offense is nothing to sneeze at. Those two factors alone will greatly improve performance for most people.
The crazy part is my build is on the lower end of the spectrum. If I had higher rank mods and made more optimal build choices - it would be far, far, better.
Also, you left out a couple of things:
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
With JG (AoPM in Hybrid Mode):
STR 97 / DEX 97 / CON 160 / INT 324 / EGO 322 / PRE 317 / REC 110 / END 97 / 8405 HP
OFFENSE 343 (+12%) / DEFENSE 183.3 (+43%)
Armadillo Secondaries (+25% DR, +57 INT, +33.5 PRE, +33.5 EGO)
Justice Gloves of Healing (+62 CON, +57 EGO, +21 Defense, + 87% healing)
Justice Tights of Fitness (+553 Max Health, +55 INT, +62 PRE, +82 Defense)
Justice Mask of Efficiency (+57 EGO, +62 PRE, +21 Defense, +51 CDR, +392 Cost Discount)
Set Bonus - +25 All Stats, +147 Offense
With best pre-JG gear
STR 94 / DEX 94 / CON 156 / INT 319 / EGO 235 / PRE 335 / REC 107 / END 94
OFFENSE 238.1 (+8.5) / DEFENSE 158.2 (+37%)
Armadillo Secondaries (+25% DR, +57 INT, +33.5 PRE, +33.5 EGO)
Heroic Gloves of Growth (+62 CON, +55 PRE, +19 DEF, +68 OFF, + 27% healing, +23 INT)
Heroic Breastplate of Defence (+55 INT, +57 PRE, +66 DEF)
Heroic Helmet of Efficiency (+57 PRE, +57 EGO, +19 DEF, +93 CDR, +281 Cost Discount)
The gearing isn't exactly equivalent on each - although both sets us R5-7 mods the Heroic set has an extra PRE boost, Justice is geared towards EGO.
No Guardicator here, so the +147 Offense doesn't stack up as it would on other builds. Not sure where the +25 set bonus on JG has gone, but there you go. But basically... with JG I'm up on defense by 6.5%, offense by 3.5%, healing by 60% (vital for survivability on a Grimoire), HP by 550, Cost Discount +100. This means I can afford to stack 100 EGO over PRE, which means much more damage (around 250/20% per tick on Skarn's Bane). However the additional healing mods in the JG means that I also produce around 200/30% per tick more healing. The character is much, much more durable and effective. And the effect would be multiplied on a freeform/optimised build.
I listed how much my damage actually went up on a given attack. I felt that was much more valuable than listing the components that lead to that increase, but the amount of increased damage you actually get is likely what people are more interested in. Since the bonus damage from the Form stayed mostly the same, you can trust that that 9% is largely from Offense. 12% is a bit better, but still not catapulting anyone from average to elite - their dps would go from 4000 to 4480. 2% more damage reduction on average through dodge turns into 21% how exactly? I'm very interested. It was.
Form 54 > 58. EU 18 > 20.
Conviction went from 36 > 34.
Paliate 1:39 > 1:44
You impressed yet? I'm not.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
For the given build, what is the best performance Merc gear enables vs. best performance that Justice gear enables.
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PS - I did a quick check to see how much that second Sentinal's Brooch gives in regards to more healing. Adding a +26% brooch increased my healing output by 5.87%. 5.87% more healing seems to be the actual amount that switching from merc to justice enables. 60%, or 30% ( both were claimed ) would require some pretty significant changes in the time between changing from one tier of gear to the next. 5.87% more healing would not be enough to justify being able to stat your character in wildly different ways, that actually involve investing less into healing, and actually gaining more toughness through healing.
Note: 5.87% at 8 stacks of Compassion. 9.01% at 0 stacks.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I can't do this on PTS (that toon is on an old Silver Account) so the mods in the gear have to be what they are. But the maximum healing bonus from a Merc set of Healing gloves (slotted with the same mods as the JG) is 25+29 = 54%, 33% less than the JG. Heroic Gear is slightly better than Merc, Justice Gear is much better.
It's also worth saying that the tootip bonuses on this gear are generally shown incorrectly until they're slotted. And who knows whether they're actually giving us the bonuses they're meant to?
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I always start with Merc gear all my toons, including the one I used here started with Merc Gear at 40. I only have one J-Gear enabled toon and there he is. I very rarely if ever bother with Heroics.
Justice Gear took him form face planting if Gravitar looked his way, to being able very nearly tank her. I also know for a fact that having over 300 defense changed my player experience. It doesn't look so hot on paper, but in practice it's amazing. That's why you see so many players building for +300 defense. If it didn't matter, then you wouldn't be doing it.
Are you seriously arguing that Merc Gear and Justice Gear are equivalent? Because if you are - then uhm.. okay have at it good sir! But I can't think of anyone who'll agree with you on that.
With Merc Gear
STR 13/DEX 10/CON 225/INT 82/EGO 230/PRE 10 /REC 223 / END 35
OFFENSE 184 (+8.1%) / CRIT 30.5% / DEFENSE 167.1 (+39% DR), CD +260
With JG
STR 13/DEX 10/CON 250/INT 78/EGO 255/PRE 10/REC 248/END 35
OFFENSE 735.2 (+21%) / CRIT 19% / DEFENSE 324.3 (+76% DR), CD +392
On trying my usual test (5 man team of lvl 41 villians in the PH team room) I find... with JG, my damage is increased by around 150-200 per tick of 2GM and - most significantly - my HP doesn't go below 75% of my base total at any time. Even if I'm targeting the wrong villain and shooting in the opposite direction to all the people who are shooting me. HTH.
Also, should probably give crit severity too
PS - could you list your damage before 2gm and after? You say it's increased "by around 150-200" and that's not a particularly accurate measure, especially without the before.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
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My characters
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
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My characters
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
That extra Core slot... it is far more significant than you're demonstration makes it out to be... If your slotting 2 of the same core then yes the bonus of having it isn't really all that impressive for the most part... BUT... the significance of having 2 core slots as opposed to 1 is the fact that you CAN slot two different cores... And with the new cores we've got from TA, this fact becomes all that more significant.
Lets look at your Offensive Core... You could slot an Impact for +Offense and a Gamblers for +Crit% to get a prety signifiant boost to your overall damage, most likely more than if you had taken 2 Impact or 2 Gambler cores... or maybe you want to slot a Gamblers and a Severity core... when you look at core combinations rather than singular cores you begin to see a much bigger increase than you got otherwise...
Then there is also the fact that the superstat increase from Justice set effect can for many builds result in the complete removal of a stat from their mods giving them even more of their most important stat... like a STR PSS Juggernaut build might choose to not slot any strength mods in favor of more CON since they get all the strength they need from talents and set bonus. That very same build might also get enough of their other secondary stat from talents and set bonus and opt to slot only CON because they can at that point... The performance of that build will increase significantly without any actual negative impact that normally accompanies single stat gearing... Justice gear makes single stat gearing optimal for some builds that rely on a mimimum value in multiple stats...
There is a certain term that is very popular in online gaming (and even table top gaming) that appplies here... Min-max... Justice Gear is the optimal gear for any sort of min-maxing since it's set bonus provides a lot of the benefits that a min-maxer wants a minimum value in and opens them up to maximizing eveything else far easier... it even increases the maximum for some things as well. The biggest benefit of Justice gear is it's versatility... Versatility can go a LONG ways... if you take something that gives you more options for increase and put it all to a linear increase then you will inevitably get an unsatisfactory result, but if you imbrace the versatility and branch out a bit then you'll suddenly see you've got a LOT more going for you all of a sudden.
Also: I never said "the average player can't stack ego" I said "the average player DOESN'T have stats stacked that high"... Big difference...
Think you people might be leading us all on a wild goose chase.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
- is the average player still leveling their first character?
- has the average player been playing the game for longer than 6 months?
- does the average player read the forums? (combat and powers section, guides, etc)
- does the average player have any friends or SG mates that are more experienced?
- does the average player care about having better gear?
- does the average player have Armadillo Gear, Merc Gear, Heroic Gear, or Justice Gear?
- does the average player have just 1 character?
- does the average player understand stats and spec trees?
Doing the above is useful because some combinations of these answers would not make sense.
For example, it would not make sense if the average player had been playing for longer than 6 months, cared about getting better gear, and still doesn't have Merc Gear....or even Heroic Gear. Especially since both are relatively easy to get for someone with 6+ months of gametime.
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That's not optimum, btw. Other stat/spec choices make a big difference. If take Ego as PSS, Rec and Con as SSS (as before), then I take Force of Will (SSS grants +46 Defense) and Aggression (Offense from items +20%) from the Spec tree, and I get JG stats as follows:
STR 13/DEX 13/CON 263/INT 71/EGO 309/PRE 13/REC 194/END 34
Offense 772.8 (+22%), Crit 14.4%, Severity 61.7%
Defense 356 (+84%), Dodge 15.4%, Avoidance 43.8%
Merc Gear comes in like this....
STR 13/DEX 13/CON 238/INT 75/EGO 283/PRE 13/REC 169/END 34
Offense 215.4 (+7.8%), Crit 25.6%, Severity 50%
Defense 198.1 (+47%), Dodge 10%, Avoidance 52.7%
Call me an average bear if you like, but with JG that's +14% damage and +37% DR, or to put it another way, a 358% increase in offense and 179% increase in DR. Sure I can do better if I keep tweaking the specs, too...
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I notice you're trying to have two conversations here. On the one hand you're making claims about gear, and on the other hand you're making claims about knowing how to build good. You should keep in mind that one does not require the other. After all, there were good builds before Justice Build ever existed, and there are players in Merc gear who perform significantly better than players in Justice gear due to their build. Fact is, if your mythical "average player" can't build good, then Justice Gear isn't going to enable them to do anything - gear cannot make up for your build in this game. That said, figuring out how to build good in this game is pretty easy, so unless you're willing to provide proof that I'm somehow more intelligent than the average player then I assume that they can figure out to build as good as I do ( whatever that means ) as easily as I did - without any sort of extensive research, and just reading power descriptions and coming to obvious conclusions.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
15.5% more mitigation and 10% more damage, still not enough to enable you to do something that someone in Merc can't - and again, that's the point. Feel free to not "dance to my tune" all you like, but this thread does have a point and you're not getting away from that.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Messing about with the details of some pieces of gear won't get the really big numbers. You need exploits for that.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
We both know several folks using DPS exploits, which can generate insane numbers on those scoreboards (and gain, no top-end gear needed).
I don't know any defense/tank exploits, but the best gear can net you something like the equivalent of an extra stack of defiance (+15-18% resist).
For healing, I know how to game the scoring system, exploiting. Having very high end gear isn't necessary: just the right choice of powers, plus judicious use of block.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
It might be easiest overall if you just posted your regular game build so that I can replicate the effects of the gear available on PTS for general discussion - would that be possible?
Post the glass cannon, so we can see if it is.
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My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I was being serious. I don't know how to calculate Defense Mitigation. I do appreciate that substantial increases in DR don't translate into an equivalent reduction in damage taken but I don't know how the relationship varies.
And yes, I'm afraid the only way to put the "elite gear" argument to bed would be for someone to post an "elite" build and let klutzes like me loose with it on PTS. Then we would know if player ability was more important than gear and build.
So 100% Resistance is 50% Reduction since |(100/(1+1.00)-100)|=50
Justice is not that different from Mercenary if you ignore the increased dodge, extra cores, crit chance, crit severity, and miscellaneous statistics benefits, and only repeatedly mention that the base attack of a power increased by 9% and resistance increased by 10%.
20% general improvement when you count only 2 of the many interacting statistics in the game is proof that skill is everything in the MMO genre which has built its entire model around equipment acquisition!
5% Reistance = |(100/(1+0.05))-100| = |(100/1.05)-100| = |95.24 - 100| = |-4.76| = 4.76% Reduction
300% Resistance = |(100/(1+3.00))-100| = |(100/4)-100| = |25 - 100| = |-75| = 75% Reduction
Now to see diminshing returns in action a little better... remember than 100% Resistance was 50% Reduction...
There is also furthar diminshing returns in the calculation that converts Defense into Resistance...
If your character consists of four stats:
A = 10
B = 10
C = 10
D = 10
Then your character's overall ability is 40. If I increase A and B by 10% each, then your character's overall ability becomes 42, an increase of only 5%, not 20%. If I increase all by 10%, then your overall ability becomes 44, an increase of 10%, not 40%.
It's fun that you say I ignored statistics that are very plainly laid out in the OP though, and even more hilarious that you're trying to compare CO's gear ladder to those of other MMOs when we have 2 rungs, and other MMOs have enough to reach double digits. Be glad I even bothered to respond this much when you're clearly just trolling
I threw your hissy fit back in your face because I thought it would be funny to throw your claim of "joke thread/joke thread starter" back at you after you started to act like you were taking the thread seriously.
If you're asking for my build, then you're acknowledging that gear is not the deciding factor here. You actually already have all the information you need in this thread to duplicate these stats.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Yes 20% is a major simplification. But I meant for those 2 dimensions that are coming up in the topic. The 'effectiveness' of whichever aspects of a character you want to calculate are not equal weighted.
If C refers to healing and D to... another aspect, aggro? then yes, but if you mean criticals or dodge, no.
The improvements are multiplicative. If you increase a power by 10%, yes, it produces 10% offensive improvement, because the critical statistics will multiply by the base if I understand correctly.
Dodge/Avoid are optimized the closer they are url="www.analyzemath.com/calculus/Problems/optimize_area.html"]see basic calculus[/url.
Total=D*A. .26*.571=0.14846 .314*.513=0.161082 Almost 9% more! I would need the real resistance values to figure out effective HP.
You implied rather forcefully in the OP how the 9% and 11% are the only significant difference:
I actually came in expecting the difference between mercenary and justice to not be gigantic. You convinced me the other way.
But instead of the simple tooltip measurements the real test should be a calculated combat situation. One might test the difference in cosmic score on a build with mercenary and justice.
That's impossible to calculate without the tooltip offense amount in the OP's build.
Oh Spinny. It is, and you are. And you know it. But I am (taking it seriously) not to play along with your silliness and egotism, but because I'm honestly interested in what the differences are and how gear affects builds. Why? Because there are (a) types of characters I don't really know how to build or play and (b) if there is a most significant factor in successful gameplay in CO, more than gear, it's about what you know. End of thread?
Since i'm not an altaholic (only 7 L40) and prefer to gear up a few but strong characters, this type of itemization and
the work required to get it, removes all the fun for me.
I've tried to get a change made to the game for the better, but it's been pretty much confirmed by Devs that no changes
are planned towards players gearing up... And since my accounts is full of FF, it requires me to subscribed to play,
and im not paying for a broken gameplay.
Up to Mercenary, insane grind..
Mercenary > Heroic - insane grind.
Heroic > Justice - insane grind.
Justice > Heirloom - insane grind.
Heirloom > Ditinguished - insane grind.
Its all insane, each with a very minor upgrade... Juice is not worth the squeeze.
maybe aurum heirloom can squeak in above merc, but only just barely because of its set bonuses