Aspect of the Machine

notyuu · March 2016

On paper it sounds like a god-send form, bolstering both melee and ranged damage...however in reality it's borderline useless, chaning this would be as simple as two steps.

1: Change the proc method to be on maintain AND full charge of any power.
2: Grant it a small energy return when a stack is proced.
3: you have just made AoTM actually useful.

alexofspades · March 2016

I disagree with the proc method. That would take away what makes AotM unique - the "on kill" proc is cool. Concentration already has something like that going on (the whole charge/maintain thing).

How about the current system remains (one stack per kill), except you cannot lose stacks if you're currently in combat? That means remaining on a "murderous rampage" will allow you to stay buffed, even if there's a big boss at the end. In alerts and lairs, you could remain buffed, provided you rush to the boss after finishing with the last group.

avianos · March 2016

More like Aspect of the Murdering Hobo, am I right?

kallethen · March 2016

The problem with "on kill" is that it is very literal. Only when YOU make the killing blow. It's very unfriendly to teams, and even more unfriendly to boss fights. I can agree with the idea of not wanting to copy Concentration's proc method, but the power ideally needs something better than "on kill."

vonqball · March 2016

I dislike the "on kill" mechanic quite a bit. The way I'd like AotM to work, is to have it grant two kinds of buffs, one that boosts range and one that boosts melee. When you use/charge/maintain a melee attack you get a ranged boost... and vice versa. That way AotM would not just enable you to use both ranged and melee, it would force you to mix them together to best use he toggle.

roughbearmattach · March 2016

I have ended up using AotM on a couple toons, ranking it to R3 on both. These are toons who really have a significant mix of powers, and wouldn't necessarily be proccing anything else much.

Neither is a very optimal build, but it works okay.

I think that adding a way to gain stacks against bosses would be enough. I'm not sure what that would be, though. Getting a stack if you land the finishing blow isn't very helpful in a boss fight.

spinnytop · March 2016

notyuu said:
On paper it sounds like a god-send form, bolstering both melee and ranged damage...however in reality it's borderline useless, chaning this would be as simple as two steps.

1: Change the proc method to be on maintain AND full charge of any power.
2: Grant it a small energy return when a stack is proced.
3: you have just made AoTM actually useful.

You've just excluded a lot of both ranged and melee builds from using this form... that's a bit silly given that the nature of the form is versatility don't you think?

At 3 stacks, AotM gives about 8% less total damage bonus than something like concentration at 8 stacks, given the same stats. If we're using Strength as the highest attribute on the character, then you're getting quite a bit more bonus to ranged damage than you would with Concentration. If we're using Ego as the highest stat then you're getting quite a bit more damage to melee attacks than you are with enraged or a martial form. This is the strength of the form. It also works with everything, unlike other forms which have certain requirements to proc, and which when ranked up can only get to 3/8 stacks, unlike AotM which can get to 3/5 stacks.

Borderline useless? Hardly. It just happens to be one of the only forms worth ranking up. If we're going to add an energy return to it I say forget stacks entirely, that's been done to death - give it a small constant energy return every 3 seconds scaled on the lower of Strength or Ego, so that the form continues to work with everything but doesn't cross into "best form" territory.

roughbearmattach · March 2016

spinnytop said:

Borderline useless? Hardly. It just happens to be one of the only forms worth ranking up. If we're going to add an energy return to it I say forget stacks entirely, that's been done to death - give it a small constant energy return every 3 seconds scaled on the lower of Strength or Ego, so that the form continues to work with everything but doesn't cross into "best form" territory.

This is at the heart of the issue. Folks are used to only taking R1 of the most common forms.

Some folks take R3 Enrage for cosmetics/rp purposes (Giant Growth), another small group take IDF at R3, plus a smaller set take the psychic form at R3.

Most players never rank up their forms--Concentration, Enrage, Compassion, Manipulator, and the various MA forms. There isn't generally any benefit.

So, a convenience in the common forms seems like a terrible price in Aspect of the Machine. I made peace with it and use R3.

Still, I wish there was some way to proc the form on bosses (aside from the killing blow).

riverocean · March 2016

Putting AotM @R3 isn't that bad. Especially if you have a mixed melee range build. Also it's great for powers like Crushing Wave, that have a hard time procing the other forms.

Personally, I think AotM should trigger when the user is attacked. So every-time you take a tick of damage, it procs. That would preserve it's uniqueness and make it useful for boss fights.

morigosa · March 2016

Personally, I think AotM should proc every, say, five seconds when in combat. Make it regular. Like clockwork. Like a machine. The current on-kill proc never made sense to me.

And if you want to preserve the value of ranking it up, maybe make that timing vary by rank? R1, one stack at base, procs every 10 seconds while in combat. R2, two stacks, 7 seconds. R3, three stacks, 5 seconds.

I also think it should grant energy on proc, which - in combination with the above suggestion - would make it an interesting option for energy management.

zamuelpwe · March 2016

While it got drowned out by the other responses when the Automaton first came out, my suggestion is still the same. AotM should have two activation possibilities. One is the same as it currently has where it procs on enemy defeat. The other is two part. When an enemy hits half health, you start to get a scaling chance to activate the proc the lower the enemy's health is. This chance is boosted the longer the attack is charged before released. This should never equal 100%, since that's the activation on kill, but should still be competitive. Charging giving a bonus allows the playstyle to feel different than other forms that are usually focused on taps or maintains.

raighn · March 2016

zamuelpwe said:
While it got drowned out by the other responses when the Automaton first came out, my suggestion is still the same. AotM should have two activation possibilities. One is the same as it currently has where it procs on enemy defeat. The other is two part. When an enemy hits half health, you start to get a scaling chance to activate the proc the lower the enemy's health is. This chance is boosted the longer the attack is charged before released. This should never equal 100%, since that's the activation on kill, but should still be competitive. Charging giving a bonus allows the playstyle to feel different than other forms that are usually focused on taps or maintains.

Add maintain durration & Combo stage to that and it'll be perfect.... Full Charge, Full Maintain, & Combo Finish should all have the same chance to stack AotM... that way it's equal opportunity and not just benefiting charge heavy builds...

zamuelpwe · March 2016

The thing about adding maintains to it is that Concentration already exists. Forms have a variety of mechanics so some things will wind up being more favored than others. They already aren't equal opportunity.

spinnytop · March 2016

zamuelpwe said:
While it got drowned out by the other responses when the Automaton first came out, my suggestion is still the same. AotM should have two activation possibilities. One is the same as it currently has where it procs on enemy defeat. The other is two part. When an enemy hits half health, you start to get a scaling chance to activate the proc the lower the enemy's health is. This chance is boosted the longer the attack is charged before released. This should never equal 100%, since that's the activation on kill, but should still be competitive. Charging giving a bonus allows the playstyle to feel different than other forms that are usually focused on taps or maintains.

This is interesting, though I do have to point out that Concentration also gives stacks on charging powers, so if we really want to make AotM different, we would have to look elsewhere. I like the increased chance as enemy health gets lower though.

How about it has a chance to proc every time a power comes off cool down? The way MSA works. We don't have a form that procs in that fashion for sure. Could even have it refresh all current stacks according to the cooldown of the power - longer cooldown, adds more time to stacks.

raighn · March 2016

zamuelpwe said:
The thing about adding maintains to it is that Concentration already exists. Forms have a variety of mechanics so some things will wind up being more favored than others. They already aren't equal opportunity.

I hardly see that as a valid reason to not include it... Chilled Form procs off the EXACT same conditions as Concentration... and we have AotB & FotS that both proc off bleeds... and when it comes to charges we already have FotTiger... When it comes down to it most of the forms in the game share mechanics...

My point earlier was that AotM as it currently is, can proc off any power, it's only condition is kills... (which is a terrible condition, BTW).... limiting it to Charged attacks cuts a large number of builds that currently can use AotM.... if AotM was still on PTS then changing from on kill to on full charge wouldn't be a big deal.... but it's not on PTS and hasn't been for a long time now... people actively use this form in various builds despite how poorly designed it is. As such any change to it needs to not limit it's functionality. changes need to be made to make it functional in combat against more than just swarms of henchmen.

If ya'll are so dead set on AotM having a condition that no other forms use, then Combo-finish about the only option remaining... but that would limit it to melee only.... either it has the completely unique and utterly broken condition of "on kill(ing blow)" or it recycles an already used set of conditions. Using maintain, charge, & combo-finish keeps it open to all the same builds it's open to currently while also making it functional against bosses.

bluhman · March 2016

The biggest problem I got with AotM is that it gets energy way less often than other toggles. In fact, the lack of ability to stack to full 5 in most situations isn't even a huge factor for me, because R3ing it already gets you more than halfway to full power.

If I had to pick another proc for AotM to trigger off of, I'd go far as to say full-charged ranged attacks and final combo hits. But without that I feel the form could just use something like small bursts of energy every 10 seconds or so.

squirrelloid · March 2016

spinnytop said:

At 3 stacks, AotM gives about 8% less total damage bonus than something like concentration at 8 stacks, given the same stats. If we're using Strength as the highest attribute on the character, then you're getting quite a bit more bonus to ranged damage than you would with Concentration. If we're using Ego as the highest stat then you're getting quite a bit more damage to melee attacks than you are with enraged or a martial form. This is the strength of the form. It also works with everything, unlike other forms which have certain requirements to proc, and which when ranked up can only get to 3/8 stacks, unlike AotM which can get to 3/5 stacks.

This is only true towards the lower end of the likely range for a given superstat (2-300). As the stat increases, the bonus from 8 stacks of a comparable form quickly exceeds 3 stacks of AoTM by an increasingly significant margin. (And of course those other forms give energy to you scaled off the same stat, which AoTM cannot do).

Edit: Someone posted some numbers here: http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/championsonline#/discussion/1204064/aotm-for-pure-melee

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aurinkosi said:
I disagree with the proc method. That would take away what makes AotM unique - the "on kill" proc is cool. Concentration already has something like that going on (the whole charge/maintain thing).

How about the current system remains (one stack per kill), except you cannot lose stacks if you're currently in combat? That means remaining on a "murderous rampage" will allow you to stay buffed, even if there's a big boss at the end. In alerts and lairs, you could remain buffed, provided you rush to the boss after finishing with the last group.

Except the game loves unskippable cutscenes too much, so in 2/3 of the content people actually play regularly, your stacks will unavoidably fall off during the boss cutscene and you'll have no way to build them. (If there was any way to build stacks in teh first place - see Gravitar and FnI).

legendarylycan · March 2016

i think the person who said having it auto-stack every X seconds in combat had the best idea...it's precise, it's consistent, it's clockwork - perfect for a machine

spinnytop · March 2016

shadowfang240 said:
i think the person who said having it auto-stack every X seconds in combat had the best idea...it's precise, it's consistent, it's clockwork - perfect for a machine

Unfortunately, it means that it stays at five stacks all the time for nothing, which starts to wander into "best form" territory.

spinnytop · March 2016

squirrelloid said:

spinnytop said:

At 3 stacks, AotM gives about 8% less total damage bonus than something like concentration at 8 stacks, given the same stats. If we're using Strength as the highest attribute on the character, then you're getting quite a bit more bonus to ranged damage than you would with Concentration. If we're using Ego as the highest stat then you're getting quite a bit more damage to melee attacks than you are with enraged or a martial form. This is the strength of the form. It also works with everything, unlike other forms which have certain requirements to proc, and which when ranked up can only get to 3/8 stacks, unlike AotM which can get to 3/5 stacks.
This is only true towards the lower end of the likely range for a given superstat (2-300). As the stat increases, the bonus from 8 stacks of a comparable form quickly exceeds 3 stacks of AoTM by an increasingly significant margin. (And of course those other forms give energy to you scaled off the same stat, which AoTM cannot do).

Edit: Someone posted some numbers here: http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/championsonline#/discussion/1204064/aotm-for-pure-mele

Those numbers actually support what I'm saying. Keep in mind, they're not posting the actual amount of bonus damage you're getting, they're posting the numbers before it goes through cryptic math. I've actually tested this in game, using actual power damage values.

roughbearmattach · March 2016

"Being in combat" is too easy to stack the form, since taking damage from an enemy puts a character in combat.

soulforger · March 2016

roughbearmattach said:
"Being in combat" is too easy to stack the form, since taking damage from an enemy puts a character in combat.

Doing anything to another player that is in combat puts you in combat. Walking 5 feet past a group of enemies puts you into combat. It is so easy to get into combat, its not even funny.

chaelk · March 2016

notyuu wrote: »

On paper it sounds like a god-send form, bolstering both melee and ranged damage...however in reality it's borderline useless, chaning this would be as simple as two steps.

1: Change the proc method to be on maintain AND full charge of any power.
2: Grant it a small energy return when a stack is proced.
3: you have just made AoTM actually useful.

on a maintain and charge, sounds like Overdrive. which works on maintains and at least half charge.

morigosa · March 2016

roughbearmattach said:
"Being in combat" is too easy to stack the form, since taking damage from an enemy puts a character in combat.

Which is why, if you look at my original suggestion, the form would stack up relatively slowly. Now, if you want "easy to stack", consider Aspect of the Infernal, which (unlike most other forms) doesn't have an internal cooldown on gaining stacks. Or consider Concentration, which has multiple triggers for stacking that basically boil down to "if you're using ranged attacks".

spinnytop · March 2016

morigosa said:

roughbearmattach said:
"Being in combat" is too easy to stack the form, since taking damage from an enemy puts a character in combat.
Which is why, if you look at my original suggestion, the form would stack up relatively slowly. Now, if you want "easy to stack", consider Aspect of the Infernal, which (unlike most other forms) doesn't have an internal cooldown on gaining stacks. Or consider Concentration, which has multiple triggers for stacking that basically boil down to "if you're using ranged attacks".

Yes, but Aspect of the Infernal is limited to triggering off only powers that apply poison, which is a fairly narrow range of powers, hence why it gets to be different. Sure, it's easy to just take a bunch of powers that apply poison, but if you wanted to mix in a few powers from elsewhere then you're out of luck.

Being in combat is fairly easy, and even if the stacks stack up slowly.. so what? At some point you're going to hit full stacks, and then you're going to stay there just by being in combat. I think you should still have to do something to get those stacks - you can get into combat while being afk if you're in a party, so this doesn't strike me as particularly active.

chaelk said:

on a maintain and charge, sounds like Overdrive. which works on maintains and at least half charge.

Sounds like Concentration to me.

roughbearmattach · March 2016

Concentration is perhaps the easiest to stack. There are powers with PBAoE, that have a maintain or toggle, which can simply be used again and again to have 8 stacks. I do this while waiting for Alerts to stack.

spinnytop · March 2016

roughbearmattach said:
Concentration is perhaps the easiest to stack. There are powers with PBAoE, that have a maintain or toggle, which can simply be used again and again to have 8 stacks. I do this while waiting for Alerts to stack.

v Well this guy has an issue with FotM being too easy to stack, so take it up with him o3o

roughbearmattach said:
"Being in combat" is too easy to stack the form, since taking damage from an enemy puts a character in combat.

roughbearmattach · March 2016

The difference, gyroscopic one, is that Concentration requires that you actually do something actively to maintain stacks, whereas the other would be an automatic reaction.

spinnytop · March 2016

roughbearmattach said:
The difference, gyroscopic one, is that Concentration requires that you actually do something actively to maintain stacks, whereas the other would be an automatic reaction.

I agree, doing active stuff is better than just passively entering combat. I almost feel like Form stacks should only be gainable while in combat, to ensure that "active" doesn't equate to spamming things out of combat.

avianos · March 2016

I prefer going with the Combo and Blast suggestion of Triggering this form

Fully charge your Blast attack
or/and
Fully finish a Combo move

3-5 Seconds cooldown

im sorry but this form is horrible, it could the answer for RAnge-melee builds, but no they had to force this stupid Kill-to-trigger mechanic

vonqball · March 2016

Pretty sure Aspect of the Bestial and Form of the Tiger don't have cooldowns. I got 8 stacks of AotB in the PH by finishing a single combo of the new shred.

raighn · March 2016

vonqball said:
Pretty sure Aspect of the Bestial and Form of the Tiger don't have cooldowns. I got 8 stacks of AotB in the PH by finishing a single combo of the new shred.

You're imagining things... though AotB does build faster than most forms... it's not a lack of CD though, it's jsut a very short CD. Using Shred and AotB on Nak it doesn't hit a full 8 stacks until after the first hit on the 3rd combo (if lucky). Applying bleed to multiple targets at once still only grants 1 stack of enrage from AotB.

Several forms actually have a short enough CD that you can spam build them with the right powers. A lot of them have a 1s CD on stacks and a 3-4s CD on energy.

vonqball · March 2016

raighn said:

You're imagining things... though AotB does build faster than most forms... it's not a lack of CD though, it's jsut a very short CD. Using Shred and AotB on Nak it doesn't hit a full 8 stacks until after the first hit on the 3rd combo (if lucky). Applying bleed to multiple targets at once still only grants 1 stack of enrage from AotB.

I imagine alot of things... but, I'm pretty sure that wasn't one of them. I was playing around with the power changes on the day they arrived on live, tho.. so maybe they fixed an issue? No clue, but hitting multiple targets with the aoe was getting me multiple stacks.

spinnytop · March 2016

vonqball said:

raighn said:

You're imagining things... though AotB does build faster than most forms... it's not a lack of CD though, it's jsut a very short CD. Using Shred and AotB on Nak it doesn't hit a full 8 stacks until after the first hit on the 3rd combo (if lucky). Applying bleed to multiple targets at once still only grants 1 stack of enrage from AotB.
I imagine alot of things... but, I'm pretty sure that wasn't one of them. I was playing around with the power changes on the day they arrived on live, tho.. so maybe they fixed an issue? No clue, but hitting multiple targets with the aoe was getting me multiple stacks.

That sounds great! Good find!

Aspect of the Machine

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