I like Pistol Whip, however there is something to consider:
Pistol Whip performs the same function as Brute Strike in the HW framework, but it does it better in everyway that matters. Brute will do a few more points in damage (I had a build show ~295 for Pistol whip and ~365 for Brute Strike), but that is where it ends.
Pistol Whip is a faster power, it has 3/4th cost of Brute Strike (8.9 energy vs 12 on my build), and has the Crippling Adv power. Since these are Utility powers, there is no advantage to taking Brute Strike over Pistol Whip since that extra teeny tiny bit of damage doesn't make a difference. They either need to have better contrasting pros and cons, or be brought more in balance with each other so the differences is mostly cosmetic.
For the love of god please DO NOT remove this Feature from FF Slots!
Consider the cost of the FF slots, this should be kept as a Feature
Just update Onslaught Agent to state that Gold, Lifetimers and FF Slot users have access to the daily
I can agree with this. As a LTS people I have no dog in this fight, but I think it's a fair minor perk for FF slots to have. It also doesn't hurt to have a few more OVs bouncing around more regularly for the non-ff slot silvers to get their Guardian Tokens off of.
I like Pistol Whip, however there is something to consider:
Pistol Whip performs the same function as Brute Strike in the HW framework, but it does it better in everyway that matters. Brute will do a few more points in damage (I had a build show ~295 for Pistol whip and ~365 for Brute Strike), but that is where it ends.
Pistol Whip is a faster power, it has 3/4th cost of Brute Strike (8.9 energy vs 12 on my build), and has the Crippling Adv power. Since these are Utility powers, there is no advantage to taking Brute Strike over Pistol Whip since that extra teeny tiny bit of damage doesn't make a difference. They either need to have better contrasting pros and cons, or be brought more in balance with each other so the differences is mostly cosmetic.
I say just beef up brute strike personally, this new power is really shaping up to give to Muni what it doesn't have for DP. A decent utility power. As is, it already does less damage, and that's a big one.(More damage=things die quicker).
Buffing everything to stupid high levels and nerfing everything to piss poor levels yields the same results, but not the same community reactions.
I totally agree with this. The cost reduction was great because it lets you actually use the power without having to stack tons of ego. However, once you do stack tons of ego, it is once again incredibly overpowered. This single power comes reaaally close to the output of top PA builds (which requires a juggling act to maintain). The damage for 2GM was already really good with PTS build .37. Giving it both the cost decrease and the damage buff is too much. It should really have only been one or the other, and for playability it should be the cost decrease.
Hm, from looking at just my tooltips, 2GM is at ~87% of the damage of what it is on live, then also minus the penetration. I don't think it's actually bad if 2GM comes close to the damage of a top PA build, because while PA has it's "juggle", 2GM has the downside of being midrange rather than long range. I know that Conc Blast is mid range, but PA is pretty versatile in that it isn't limited to that. 2GM is always limited to mid-range, so having "good" damage isn't out of the question. Performing better than long-range attacks seems fair enough - the question of course being how much ( somewhere between long range and melee ).
Could you post a parse where you compare 2GM's pts damage to other top-performing dps powers with as similar a build as possible? That might actually let everyone see what the "meta" looks like at the moment. I'm especially curious to see how it stacks up to Conflagration, as that's the only other high-damage, high-cost, mid-range power I can recall atm.
I totally agree with this. The cost reduction was great because it lets you actually use the power without having to stack tons of ego. However, once you do stack tons of ego, it is once again incredibly overpowered. This single power comes reaaally close to the output of top PA builds (which requires a juggling act to maintain). The damage for 2GM was already really good with PTS build .37. Giving it both the cost decrease and the damage buff is too much. It should really have only been one or the other, and for playability it should be the cost decrease.
Hm, from looking at just my tooltips, 2GM is at ~87% of the damage of what it is on live, then also minus the penetration. I don't think it's actually bad if 2GM comes close to the damage of a top PA build, because while PA has it's "juggle", 2GM has the downside of being midrange rather than long range. I know that Conc Blast is mid range, but PA is pretty versatile in that it isn't limited to that. 2GM is always limited to mid-range, so having "good" damage isn't out of the question. Performing better than long-range attacks seems fair enough - the question of course being how much ( somewhere between long range and melee ).
Could you post a parse where you compare 2GM's pts damage to other top-performing dps powers with as similar a build as possible? That might actually let everyone see what the "meta" looks like at the moment. I'm especially curious to see how it stacks up to Conflagration, as that's the only other high-damage, high-cost, mid-range power I can recall atm.
That completely depends on the requirements on your build. Lets say for a lightning build, you don't have to add that much energy management to use Lightning Arc (which probably needs a cost increase at least against targets affected with Ions), but if you add things like gigabolt things change a lot and you actually do need a ton of energy management. But for munitions TGM is the most expensive thing you can use, if you can spam tgm without your EB you can spam anything.
So comparing powers on exactly the same build can turn out very different than comparing builds that make use of all the options in a set. If I really push it, I can make a lightning build that does only a few hundred lower dps than tgm, but then I'd never be able to use the more expensive lightning stuff on that build. Same with fire, if you add an energy circle so you can ignore some more energy management, you can get close to the damge on TGM, but playing a build like that is not really viable of fun for anything but bossfights (and the best single target fire debuff doesn't really work well against bosses, due to incapacitate immune targets breaking the maintain, so it's only viable against training dummies).
guys, the cost reduction wasnt lowered too much, my maintain went from 16 energy cost per tick to 15 in the new client build, still very hard to maintain unless you stat heavily into ego.
imo, i think you guys should have not buffed the damage, and lowered the cost further. this would help build diversity, and make the power usable pre-40.
also, when people are only looking at the pure numbers, a 10-15% nerf will be seen, but make sure you guys understand that having to shoot burst shot every two full maintains of 2gm is still quite a bit of total dps loss.
on a positive note, it seems like casting burst shot right as the buff/debuff is wearing off correctly applies/refreshes the power, previously, i had many times when this was not the case, but i could be doing something different t his time around so if you guys encounter that bug, post it for the devs
I don't think it's actually bad if 2GM comes close to the damage of a top PA build, because while PA has it's "juggle", 2GM has the downside of being midrange rather than long range.
Most of the PA builds I've seen are midrange (chest beam, concussor beam, and plasma beam are all 50'); I'm not entirely sure what a long range PA build looks like (tac missile/micro missile/minigun?). In any case, there's no reason two builds with comparable investment and effort to run shouldn't have comparable dps, but that means 2GM, burst shot, a third power, and really high energy requirements.
I like Pistol Whip, however there is something to consider:
Pistol Whip performs the same function as Brute Strike in the HW framework, but it does it better in everyway that matters. Brute will do a few more points in damage (I had a build show ~295 for Pistol whip and ~365 for Brute Strike), but that is where it ends.
Pistol Whip is a faster power, it has 3/4th cost of Brute Strike (8.9 energy vs 12 on my build), and has the Crippling Adv power. Since these are Utility powers, there is no advantage to taking Brute Strike over Pistol Whip since that extra teeny tiny bit of damage doesn't make a difference. They either need to have better contrasting pros and cons, or be brought more in balance with each other so the differences is mostly cosmetic.
Actually running the math, with my damages (743 for brute strike and 557 for pistol whip) brute strike's DPS is 1108 while pistol whip's is 1114. So not only does Brute Strike cost more, it's DPS is lower than pistol whips. And that was with one stack of enrage and night warrior on. Without the damages are 588 for Brute and 441 for pistol, which means Brute does 877 DPS and Pistol does 882 DPS. There is really no justification for this disparity since both powers have the exact same effects. I can only imagine the gap getting wider for the two powers as you start stacking up damage buffs.
I like Pistol Whip, however there is something to consider:
Pistol Whip performs the same function as Brute Strike in the HW framework, but it does it better in everyway that matters. Brute will do a few more points in damage (I had a build show ~295 for Pistol whip and ~365 for Brute Strike), but that is where it ends.
Pistol Whip is a faster power, it has 3/4th cost of Brute Strike (8.9 energy vs 12 on my build), and has the Crippling Adv power. Since these are Utility powers, there is no advantage to taking Brute Strike over Pistol Whip since that extra teeny tiny bit of damage doesn't make a difference. They either need to have better contrasting pros and cons, or be brought more in balance with each other so the differences is mostly cosmetic.
Actually running the math, with my damages (743 for brute strike and 557 for pistol whip) brute strike's DPS is 1108 while pistol whip's is 1114. So not only does Brute Strike cost more, it's DPS is lower than pistol whips. And that was with one stack of enrage and night warrior on. Without the damages are 588 for Brute and 441 for pistol, which means Brute does 877 DPS and Pistol does 882 DPS. There is really no justification for this disparity since both powers have the exact same effects. I can only imagine the gap getting wider for the two powers as you start stacking up damage buffs.
Beef up Brute strike, is what I say. I feel HW is cool and all it's damage abilities should pack a wallop, same applies to brute strike. Pistol Whip will be very nice for Dual pistols' Only utility in that tier, but like you said, a discrepancy between the two is unwarranted for their tiers. so all in all: Buff Brute Strike. Leave Pistol Whip.
Buffing everything to stupid high levels and nerfing everything to piss poor levels yields the same results, but not the same community reactions.
On paper that's ~253-254 dps for both of them, though due to activation delays it may differ for both a bit in practice. Similar energy per second too.. makes me think the numbers for Pistol Whip were directly based off of Brute Strike's. Not really a huge difference for powers ur not really meant to spam or use for sustained dps anyways. I prob wouldn't worry too much about it.
The CripC adv on Pistol Whip should be moved to Burst Shot, though, imo.
And sign me up for lowering both TGM's dmg and energy cost a bit again.
In my opinion dps is of secondary important on a power like Pistol Whip or Brute Strike, or any stun really but Brute Strike is a closest in functionality so the best to compare. I want to be able to use them with a fast tap, and get back to attacking my target as fast as possible with a power that actually does good damage. And for that function Pistol Whip is significantly better than any other melee stun we have available.
There is also precedence for click stuns with CC, we now have both Crushing Wave Kick and Pistol Whip. I think that is a good adv for a power like that since it makes them somewhat useful against targets that are immune to the stuns. So I would not like to see that removed from the melee stuns.
Burst shot's animation is still boring, and firing a single shot from two guns isn't a burst. Bursts are generally defined by two or more bullets coming from a single weapon.
guys, the cost reduction wasnt lowered too much, my maintain went from 16 energy cost per tick to 15 in the new client build, still very hard to maintain unless you stat heavily into ego.
On paper that's ~253-254 dps for both of them, though due to activation delays it may differ for both a bit in practice. Similar energy per second too.. makes me think the numbers for Pistol Whip were directly based off of Brute Strike's. Not really a huge difference for powers ur not really meant to spam or use for sustained dps anyways. I prob wouldn't worry too much about it.
The CripC adv on Pistol Whip should be moved to Burst Shot, though, imo.
And sign me up for lowering both TGM's dmg and energy cost a bit again.
Oh? Well that works too!. Haven't been able to get in, so didn't really get a good glance at the power.
Buffing everything to stupid high levels and nerfing everything to piss poor levels yields the same results, but not the same community reactions.
On paper that's ~253-254 dps for both of them, though due to activation delays it may differ for both a bit in practice. Similar energy per second too.. makes me think the numbers for Pistol Whip were directly based off of Brute Strike's. Not really a huge difference for powers ur not really meant to spam or use for sustained dps anyways. I prob wouldn't worry too much about it.
The CripC adv on Pistol Whip should be moved to Burst Shot, though, imo.
And sign me up for lowering both TGM's dmg and energy cost a bit again.
The DPS is completely irrelevant. Like you said, "ur not really meant to spam or use for sustained dps anyways."
What is relevant is that if you try to use brute strike on someone who is trying to use Pistol Whip, they will get you first. Secondly, if you are trying to make a build with heavy weapons that applies trauma, you would have to make a conscious decision to take the inferior power just because it fits theme better. You would knowingly take a power that cost more energy and activates slower. Also, if you were looking at your advantage selections and needed Crippling Challenge but wanted the powers that had CC to be Rank 3 or take some other advantage on them, Pistol Whip would be staring you in the face saying, "Drop Brute Strike and take me! I have CC!"
You could say, "Eh, not a big deal." Well, yeah it isn't a BIG deal, but despite being used for the same functions, one is just flat out superior to the other.
Can the Furious buff timer be moved to 15sec from 10sec?
And could you at least bring 2GM's single-target damage on the PTS back to what it is on live?
It's currently 1,158 on the PTS vs 1,318 on Live. Both exactly the same build with exactly the same gear and passive and toggle and so on and so forth.
"This was not intended, but I don't expect that we'll fix it now."
Well, duh; not intended was obvious. It doesn't answer my question; it only implies that the answer is "no, we won't remove the ability for silver FFs to do the daily all the time". *shakes fist* Solace in surprises then.
It is a heavy implication, which is all but a solid, "No, we won't remove it." Asking for concrete promises from any dev for anything from any game ever though? Why? Not like those concrete promises are any more of a solid thing either
On paper that's ~253-254 dps for both of them, though due to activation delays it may differ for both a bit in practice. Similar energy per second too.. makes me think the numbers for Pistol Whip were directly based off of Brute Strike's. Not really a huge difference for powers ur not really meant to spam or use for sustained dps anyways. I prob wouldn't worry too much about it.
The CripC adv on Pistol Whip should be moved to Burst Shot, though, imo.
And sign me up for lowering both TGM's dmg and energy cost a bit again.
The DPS is completely irrelevant. Like you said, "ur not really meant to spam or use for sustained dps anyways."
What is relevant is that if you try to use brute strike on someone who is trying to use Pistol Whip, they will get you first. Secondly, if you are trying to make a build with heavy weapons that applies trauma, you would have to make a conscious decision to take the inferior power just because it fits theme better. You would knowingly take a power that cost more energy and activates slower. Also, if you were looking at your advantage selections and needed Crippling Challenge but wanted the powers that had CC to be Rank 3 or take some other advantage on them, Pistol Whip would be staring you in the face saying, "Drop Brute Strike and take me! I have CC!"
You could say, "Eh, not a big deal." Well, yeah it isn't a BIG deal, but despite being used for the same functions, one is just flat out superior to the other.
Well, I'd honestly expect the HW version to be slower and heavier thematically. So from an upfront perspective, yes there's a activation time diff favoring pistols, but by that token there's also a burst dmg difference favoring HW.
As far as balancing, its pretty clear they just looked at Brute Strike's per sec numbers for Pistol Whip- I was pointing that out. If that's the case, then they actually intend for Pistol Whip to be faster. They could just do the same cut and paste they did for Binding Shot, or maybe keep HW's version slower but have another sig advantage- if they actually wanted be creative with it. But I'm not sure if their goal is to make the two powers interchangeable.
(edit: simple one w/o making them duplicate powers- make Brute Strike's stun a touch longer baseline)
There is also precedence for click stuns with CC, we now have both Crushing Wave Kick and Pistol Whip. I think that is a good adv for a power like that since it makes them somewhat useful against targets that are immune to the stuns. So I would not like to see that removed from the melee stuns.
Okay, then also give that to Brute Strike, but my main issue is that Burst Shot should prob also have CripC. It'd help w/ ranged tanks that wanna ween themselves off of TGM.
"Asking for concrete promises from any dev for anything from any game ever though? Why? Not like those concrete promises are any more of a solid thing either"
"I don't know" or "we haven't decided" is an acceptable answer that doesn't ask for concrete of any kind. Maybe you haven't noticed, but crap gets put onto live that causes bugs with silver accounts. Things that the devs didn't account for and didn't think about. The only thing I can do is raise questions on potential issue and ask for clarity. So, yes, I'm going to be picky about stuff on the PTS that can't actually be tested.
guys, the cost reduction wasnt lowered too much, my maintain went from 16 energy cost per tick to 15 in the new client build, still very hard to maintain unless you stat heavily into ego.
imo, i think you guys should have not buffed the damage, and lowered the cost further. this would help build diversity, and make the power usable pre-40.
THIS!
To me, 2GM went from 15 energy per tick to 14 with 600 EGO, basically the same. Was hoping the cost redux would get it under 10 energy/tick, too bad. Would much rather have *way* reduced cost and damage on a clone t0 single-target maintain similar in cost and dps to Assault Rifle (but 50ft instead of 100ft), only with the 2GM animation! I can see the appeal for a lvl 40 toon in Legion/Vigilante gear with 600 EGO spamming the new 2GM AoE, but I'm worried it might be too expensive once I'm in one of those Alerts that scale down to lvl 30...
Also, can't make it work with Killer Instinct/Overdrive on a support toon without Concentration (I picked Compassion instead) with my REC/PRE/CON, I just go out of energy too fast, so no more 2Gun support for me, I guess...
That said, the new healing tick more than compensates for the loss of CON extra hp if you take a decent defensive passive, so there's a net gain if you build it the right way (just not the way I wanted to build it, I guess).
"Asking for concrete promises from any dev for anything from any game ever though? Why? Not like those concrete promises are any more of a solid thing either"
"I don't know" or "we haven't decided" is an acceptable answer that doesn't ask for concrete of any kind. Maybe you haven't noticed, but crap gets put onto live that causes bugs with silver accounts. Things that the devs didn't account for and didn't think about. The only thing I can do is raise questions on potential issue and ask for clarity. So, yes, I'm going to be picky about stuff on the PTS that can't actually be tested.
"This was not intended, but I don't expect that we'll fix it now." <- Also an acceptable answer that provides just as much info as "I don't know" or "we haven't decided". I think it is open and honest. They didn't plan on giving silver FFs a daily mission, but now they <i class="Italic">probably wont change it. My point is just that it seems you didn't take their answer at face value (and I don't blame you ) but if you aren't going to take that answer for what it is worth, why take any answer for what it is worth?
Or maybe we are just arguing semantics here :P
EDIT: Are you worried that they will UNINTENTIONALLY remove the daily mission for Silver's FF? Through a bug perhaps or (un)intentional "fix" that would return the originally intended status of Silver FFs not having the Daily? If so, I was mistaken in thinking you were saying you wanted clarification on whether they INTENDED to remove the Daily Mish for Silver FFs.
They didn't expect to give the onslaught daily to silver FF slots, but there it is. It's why I said I'll have to take solace in surprises, because it doesn't seem like the devs know how stuff effects or will effect silver account. I wasn't looking for an answer, I was making a point. I like to employ questions as a tool to (hopefully) promote thinking.
Any hope of some single-pistol powers? Or 0-pt advantages that convert dual-pistol to single-pistol? (I seem to recall hold-out shot pulls out both pistols despite only firing one - that would be an easy one to slap a zero point advantage on and not pull them both out. I'm not sure if there are any others that are so trivially modified).
(Two pistols always looks silly to me. No one does it in the real world in anything other than entertainment/performance situations - people who use pistols as service weapons always draw/fire one at a time, even if they have multiple on them. Extra sidearms are backups, not dual-wielded).
Two pistols always looks silly to me. No one does it in the real world in anything other than entertainment/performance situations - people who use pistols as service weapons always draw/fire one at a time, even if they have multiple on them. Extra sidearms are backups, not dual-wielded.
We could do with the "jumping through the window while firing dual pistols" animation. Everyone loves that one.
Re: testing. Enjoying the changes to WoTW and especially Unstoppable, btw - having great fun in the Powerhouse Testing Room with a Heavy Weapons build. It's not an area I've played much so it wasn't super-optimised (STR/REC/CON?), but the character felt suitably powerful, well-balanced and lots of fun to play. I've also tested both using a two pistols/two swords build and that had a better balance between the guns and sword damage than previous builds, so good job there. Will try and work up a pistols/single blade one for later, as I couldn't ever get that one to work without being reliant on 2GM.
SO the onslaught week event thing, sounds pretty sweet for silver players, although the fact that the token drop amount only increases by 2 is a bit of a dissapointment, I was kinda expecting them to be increased by 5 [making it 10 per defeat]
In all things, a calm heart must prevail.
Member of Paragon Dawn: Because some people like friendly helpful communities.
Yeah some things are broken... no I don't use/abuse them.. where would be the fun in that?
After looking at builds with other players and the change to TGM into a Tier 3, we have found out that build flow has become VERY limited now for pistols users. Burst Shot is not impressive in any measure, but if you want to build for just pistols you HAVE to pick it in order to progress. TGM was thematically great but now you have to pick bad powers to get new ones unless you choose powers outside the tree.
Imagine how bad an electric build would be if it was Tier 3?
2. Combat in general seems to often do this on LIVE.
Not as reliably as these new powers. Shred and Massacre do this all the time. Now its happening to all new powers being added. Spam use them and then the TP animations reset to default non TP use.
It just dawned on me that burst shot is tagged as blast power yet has no charge up. Perhaps giving it a charge would increase the appeal of it. Pause the animation right before the player actually pulls out the guns, finish the animation by having them draw the guns and fire, rename the power "Quick Draw" and call it a day
It needs buffing. At the moment you could take a Specialist AT into a Grab alert at lvl 11 with nothing more than that and Holdout Shot. Which would not make you popular.
Concern: What happens when we run out of Equilibrium quotes to name advantages after?
**Checked cost change. Feels just about right now. Not up in the over 150 per maintain range anymore but still over 100.
Bug: The debuff from burst shot is stacking. This is super broken. 5+ stacks of this and we're getting back into plasma sheer territory but with every piercing and crushing dmg power in the game.
It just dawned on me that burst shot is tagged as blast power yet has no charge up. Perhaps giving it a charge would increase the appeal of it. Pause the animation right before the player actually pulls out the guns, finish the animation by having them draw the guns and fire, rename the power "Quick Draw" and call it a day
I agree, Burst Shot seems like it would be a lot better as a charge power. Plus, that's the only thing dual pistols doesn't have now. I would actually like to see it become a charge where you are encouraged to fully charge it rather than always tap it for highest dps, via some special effect when fully charged. Maybe an effect where you get a crit chance bonus, and the longer you charge it the bigger the crit chance bonus gets.. that way it emphasizes the "Burst" part of the name,.
"TGM was thematically great but now you have to pick bad powers to get new ones unless you choose powers outside the tree."
No, it means you use a leveling build until 20 and do a cheap repec to avoid having a power you don't want. You really only have to get over the 3 hurdle first picks. Chances are, most builds are going to take the eb, eu, and form from munitions anyway. After that, heals and passives that you have to get from out of set anyway can be chosen. You can pick up an AO and AD at this point. After that is level 20, where you can pick any power outside of an ult.
Skipping low tier powers was never terribly difficult for many sets.
"Burst shot is pretty much requirement for any munitions build if you plan on doing competitive dps."
Don't many of the high-end dps builds basically require certain buffs / debuffs / other shenanigans for that high dps? Why should munitions be that one set that requires nothing for top tier dps? Wasn't that part of the problem with 2gun in the first place? Super cheap and requires nothing to be good right from level 1? I'm all for easy powers to use for new players and those that aren't strong builders, but those powers shouldn't also do top of the line damage.
I wouldn't be surprised if this was a way to stop people from using 2gun in PA exploit builds. Lit arc might be up for changes next. Won't that be exciting?
Don't many of the high-end dps builds basically require certain buffs / debuffs / other shenanigans for that high dps? Why should munitions be that one set that requires nothing for top tier dps? Wasn't that part of the problem with 2gun in the first place? Super cheap and requires nothing to be good right from level 1? I'm all for easy powers to use for new players and those that aren't strong builders, but those powers shouldn't also do top of the line damage.
I wouldn't be surprised if this was a way to stop people from using 2gun in PA exploit builds. Lit arc might be up for changes next. Won't that be exciting?
Yup, for top performance Bestial/MA requires the Shred debuff, PA requires Minigun or Chest beam, Icicle Spear requires Ice Blast, Lightning Arc requires an Negative Ions source, Conflagrate requires Fireball (adv) and Firesnake/Heatwave, Might and Heavy weapons require demolish, Force Cascade requires the Premptive Strike spec and any blast attack, Skarns Bane requires Hex and maybe Ebon Ruin (adv), etc. Not having any additional requirements is part of why TGM was considered a problem.
Is Willpower's healing function tagged and called "healing", or is it called "health gain" or "regain health"?
If it is a health gain, then healing specs/role/Pre/etc won't affect it.
I think it should be tagged as healing, like Holdout Shot's Stimpack adv.
I know folks don't seem to care for it on this discussion thread, but the two munitions toons I have both took Holdout Shot w/adv as their main form of in-combat healing. Think of it like Conviction, except in-set, and more thematic, and you get to shoot your target, too. With my builds it pretty much comes off cooldown when the HoT ends.
It just dawned on me that burst shot is tagged as blast power yet has no charge up. Perhaps giving it a charge would increase the appeal of it. Pause the animation right before the player actually pulls out the guns, finish the animation by having them draw the guns and fire, rename the power "Quick Draw" and call it a day
Yeah I was saying this before, though I want a charge up for Burst Shot to help w/ ranged dps toggle buildup primarily. None of the early pistol powers can be charged or maintained to get a toggle stack that way (if something is in ur face). That's gonna be hella annoying when most of the tougher mobs in CO are melee ones.
It just dawned on me that burst shot is tagged as blast power yet has no charge up. Perhaps giving it a charge would increase the appeal of it. Pause the animation right before the player actually pulls out the guns, finish the animation by having them draw the guns and fire, rename the power "Quick Draw" and call it a day
Yeah I was saying this before, though I want a charge up for Burst Shot to help w/ ranged dps toggle buildup primarily. None of the early pistol powers can be charged or maintained to get a toggle stack that way (if something is in ur face). That's gonna be hella annoying when most of the tougher mobs in CO are melee ones.
As long as it not a rooting charge, if it roots=less appeal, I would think, esp. for its' tier.
Buffing everything to stupid high levels and nerfing everything to piss poor levels yields the same results, but not the same community reactions.
Comments
Pistol Whip performs the same function as Brute Strike in the HW framework, but it does it better in everyway that matters. Brute will do a few more points in damage (I had a build show ~295 for Pistol whip and ~365 for Brute Strike), but that is where it ends.
Pistol Whip is a faster power, it has 3/4th cost of Brute Strike (8.9 energy vs 12 on my build), and has the Crippling Adv power. Since these are Utility powers, there is no advantage to taking Brute Strike over Pistol Whip since that extra teeny tiny bit of damage doesn't make a difference. They either need to have better contrasting pros and cons, or be brought more in balance with each other so the differences is mostly cosmetic.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
42 40s, LTSer.
Could you post a parse where you compare 2GM's pts damage to other top-performing dps powers with as similar a build as possible? That might actually let everyone see what the "meta" looks like at the moment. I'm especially curious to see how it stacks up to Conflagration, as that's the only other high-damage, high-cost, mid-range power I can recall atm.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
So comparing powers on exactly the same build can turn out very different than comparing builds that make use of all the options in a set. If I really push it, I can make a lightning build that does only a few hundred lower dps than tgm, but then I'd never be able to use the more expensive lightning stuff on that build. Same with fire, if you add an energy circle so you can ignore some more energy management, you can get close to the damge on TGM, but playing a build like that is not really viable of fun for anything but bossfights (and the best single target fire debuff doesn't really work well against bosses, due to incapacitate immune targets breaking the maintain, so it's only viable against training dummies).
imo, i think you guys should have not buffed the damage, and lowered the cost further. this would help build diversity, and make the power usable pre-40.
also, when people are only looking at the pure numbers, a 10-15% nerf will be seen, but make sure you guys understand that having to shoot burst shot every two full maintains of 2gm is still quite a bit of total dps loss.
on a positive note, it seems like casting burst shot right as the buff/debuff is wearing off correctly applies/refreshes the power, previously, i had many times when this was not the case, but i could be doing something different t his time around so if you guys encounter that bug, post it for the devs
I'm glad we don't have to build like spinny in order to use TGM now.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Actually running the math, with my damages (743 for brute strike and 557 for pistol whip) brute strike's DPS is 1108 while pistol whip's is 1114. So not only does Brute Strike cost more, it's DPS is lower than pistol whips. And that was with one stack of enrage and night warrior on. Without the damages are 588 for Brute and 441 for pistol, which means Brute does 877 DPS and Pistol does 882 DPS. There is really no justification for this disparity since both powers have the exact same effects. I can only imagine the gap getting wider for the two powers as you start stacking up damage buffs.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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Actually running the math, with my damages (743 for brute strike and 557 for pistol whip) brute strike's DPS is 1108 while pistol whip's is 1114. So not only does Brute Strike cost more, it's DPS is lower than pistol whips. And that was with one stack of enrage and night warrior on. Without the damages are 588 for Brute and 441 for pistol, which means Brute does 877 DPS and Pistol does 882 DPS. There is really no justification for this disparity since both powers have the exact same effects. I can only imagine the gap getting wider for the two powers as you start stacking up damage buffs.
Beef up Brute strike, is what I say. I feel HW is cool and all it's damage abilities should pack a wallop, same applies to brute strike. Pistol Whip will be very nice for Dual pistols' Only utility in that tier, but like you said, a discrepancy between the two is unwarranted for their tiers. so all in all: Buff Brute Strike. Leave Pistol Whip.
42 40s, LTSer.
Pistol Whip = 127 dmg, 16 energy, 0.5 sec activation
Brute Strike = 170 dmg, 21 energy, 0.67 sec activation
On paper that's ~253-254 dps for both of them, though due to activation delays it may differ for both a bit in practice. Similar energy per second too.. makes me think the numbers for Pistol Whip were directly based off of Brute Strike's.
Not really a huge difference for powers ur not really meant to spam or use for sustained dps anyways. I prob wouldn't worry too much about it.
The CripC adv on Pistol Whip should be moved to Burst Shot, though, imo.
And sign me up for lowering both TGM's dmg and energy cost a bit again.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
There is also precedence for click stuns with CC, we now have both Crushing Wave Kick and Pistol Whip. I think that is a good adv for a power like that since it makes them somewhat useful against targets that are immune to the stuns. So I would not like to see that removed from the melee stuns.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
42 40s, LTSer.
What is relevant is that if you try to use brute strike on someone who is trying to use Pistol Whip, they will get you first. Secondly, if you are trying to make a build with heavy weapons that applies trauma, you would have to make a conscious decision to take the inferior power just because it fits theme better. You would knowingly take a power that cost more energy and activates slower. Also, if you were looking at your advantage selections and needed Crippling Challenge but wanted the powers that had CC to be Rank 3 or take some other advantage on them, Pistol Whip would be staring you in the face saying, "Drop Brute Strike and take me! I have CC!"
You could say, "Eh, not a big deal." Well, yeah it isn't a BIG deal, but despite being used for the same functions, one is just flat out superior to the other.
Can the Furious buff timer be moved to 15sec from 10sec?
And could you at least bring 2GM's single-target damage on the PTS back to what it is on live?
It's currently 1,158 on the PTS vs 1,318 on Live. Both exactly the same build with exactly the same gear and passive and toggle and so on and so forth.
As far as balancing, its pretty clear they just looked at Brute Strike's per sec numbers for Pistol Whip- I was pointing that out. If that's the case, then they actually intend for Pistol Whip to be faster. They could just do the same cut and paste they did for Binding Shot, or maybe keep HW's version slower but have another sig advantage- if they actually wanted be creative with it. But I'm not sure if their goal is to make the two powers interchangeable.
(edit: simple one w/o making them duplicate powers- make Brute Strike's stun a touch longer baseline) Okay, then also give that to Brute Strike, but my main issue is that Burst Shot should prob also have CripC. It'd help w/ ranged tanks that wanna ween themselves off of TGM.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
"I don't know" or "we haven't decided" is an acceptable answer that doesn't ask for concrete of any kind. Maybe you haven't noticed, but crap gets put onto live that causes bugs with silver accounts. Things that the devs didn't account for and didn't think about. The only thing I can do is raise questions on potential issue and ask for clarity. So, yes, I'm going to be picky about stuff on the PTS that can't actually be tested.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
To me, 2GM went from 15 energy per tick to 14 with 600 EGO, basically the same. Was hoping the cost redux would get it under 10 energy/tick, too bad. Would much rather have *way* reduced cost and damage on a clone t0 single-target maintain similar in cost and dps to Assault Rifle (but 50ft instead of 100ft), only with the 2GM animation! I can see the appeal for a lvl 40 toon in Legion/Vigilante gear with 600 EGO spamming the new 2GM AoE, but I'm worried it might be too expensive once I'm in one of those Alerts that scale down to lvl 30...
Also, can't make it work with Killer Instinct/Overdrive on a support toon without Concentration (I picked Compassion instead) with my REC/PRE/CON, I just go out of energy too fast, so no more 2Gun support for me, I guess...
That said, the new healing tick more than compensates for the loss of CON extra hp if you take a decent defensive passive, so there's a net gain if you build it the right way (just not the way I wanted to build it, I guess).
Finally, love the dual blades lunge, thank you!
Or maybe we are just arguing semantics here :P
EDIT: Are you worried that they will UNINTENTIONALLY remove the daily mission for Silver's FF? Through a bug perhaps or (un)intentional "fix" that would return the originally intended status of Silver FFs not having the Daily? If so, I was mistaken in thinking you were saying you wanted clarification on whether they INTENDED to remove the Daily Mish for Silver FFs.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
Pistol Whip causes the animation of travel powers to reset to the default running one.
(Two pistols always looks silly to me. No one does it in the real world in anything other than entertainment/performance situations - people who use pistols as service weapons always draw/fire one at a time, even if they have multiple on them. Extra sidearms are backups, not dual-wielded).
Re: testing. Enjoying the changes to WoTW and especially Unstoppable, btw - having great fun in the Powerhouse Testing Room with a Heavy Weapons build. It's not an area I've played much so it wasn't super-optimised (STR/REC/CON?), but the character felt suitably powerful, well-balanced and lots of fun to play. I've also tested both using a two pistols/two swords build and that had a better balance between the guns and sword damage than previous builds, so good job there. Will try and work up a pistols/single blade one for later, as I couldn't ever get that one to work without being reliant on 2GM.
Member of Paragon Dawn: Because some people like friendly helpful communities.
Yeah some things are broken... no I don't use/abuse them.. where would be the fun in that?
Imagine how bad an electric build would be if it was Tier 3?
Not as reliably as these new powers. Shred and Massacre do this all the time. Now its happening to all new powers being added. Spam use them and then the TP animations reset to default non TP use.
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
**Checked cost change. Feels just about right now. Not up in the over 150 per maintain range anymore but still over 100.
Bug: The debuff from burst shot is stacking. This is super broken. 5+ stacks of this and we're getting back into plasma sheer territory but with every piercing and crushing dmg power in the game.
Snark never dies.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
No, it means you use a leveling build until 20 and do a cheap repec to avoid having a power you don't want. You really only have to get over the 3 hurdle first picks. Chances are, most builds are going to take the eb, eu, and form from munitions anyway. After that, heals and passives that you have to get from out of set anyway can be chosen. You can pick up an AO and AD at this point. After that is level 20, where you can pick any power outside of an ult.
Skipping low tier powers was never terribly difficult for many sets.
"Burst shot is pretty much requirement for any munitions build if you plan on doing competitive dps."
Don't many of the high-end dps builds basically require certain buffs / debuffs / other shenanigans for that high dps? Why should munitions be that one set that requires nothing for top tier dps? Wasn't that part of the problem with 2gun in the first place? Super cheap and requires nothing to be good right from level 1? I'm all for easy powers to use for new players and those that aren't strong builders, but those powers shouldn't also do top of the line damage.
I wouldn't be surprised if this was a way to stop people from using 2gun in PA exploit builds. Lit arc might be up for changes next. Won't that be exciting?
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
If it is a health gain, then healing specs/role/Pre/etc won't affect it.
I think it should be tagged as healing, like Holdout Shot's Stimpack adv.
I know folks don't seem to care for it on this discussion thread, but the two munitions toons I have both took Holdout Shot w/adv as their main form of in-combat healing. Think of it like Conviction, except in-set, and more thematic, and you get to shoot your target, too. With my builds it pretty much comes off cooldown when the HoT ends.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
42 40s, LTSer.
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/championsonline#/discussion/comment/12725186
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
It's probably Healing since It's affected by healing bonuses at this time. Hehe, you know what that means, right?
And I will always be @DZPlayer122.
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Time for an Unstoppable Enraged Dual Blade toon.
That Dork In The Suspenders, signing out.
WARNING: Not An Actual Internet Reviewer
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