I'm going to get so flamed for this statement. But I've put on my asbestos undergarments in preparation.
I really like how the Marvel MMO handled it's player character design. While not as open as CO -- the pre-mades are self-sufficient and also have team buffs. There is no "healer role" per se in the game, because their design philosophy is that healers don't fit the comic book theme. I haven't played that game in years, because I prefer CO... but that's a thing that stood out to me.
Honestly, I don't know why AT's were not designed that way. AT's should be reasonably self-sufficient but also be able to synch into team play when needed. That's the essence of super-hero IMHO. Of course the other option would be to ax AT's all together and just have everyone be FF.
I agree with both options for ATs.
Buffing everything to stupid high levels and nerfing everything to piss poor levels yields the same results, but not the same community reactions.
I'm going to get so flamed for this statement. But I've put on my asbestos undergarments in preparation.
I really like how the Marvel MMO handled it's player character design. While not as open as CO -- the pre-mades are self-sufficient and also have team buffs. There is no "healer role" per se in the game, because their design philosophy is that healers don't fit the comic book theme. I haven't played that game in years, because I prefer CO... but that's a thing that stood out to me.
Honestly, I don't know why AT's were not designed that way. AT's should be reasonably self-sufficient but also be able to synch into team play when needed. That's the essence of super-hero IMHO. Of course the other option would be to ax AT's all together and just have everyone be FF.
Burn the witch! \( owo )/
No but, some ATs are self sufficient. Others aren't because they seem to be designed to show off a single framework. For example the Inferno only has damage, damage, and more damage, because that's what the Fire framework has. The Master on the other hand comes from a framework where you can make a good tank using just what's in that framework. I think there was also a conscious sense of "Don't make them too good otherwise people won't want to upgrade to a Free Form".
I mean, to be honest a lot of ATs suffer from a common problem, and that's the person playing them. An Inferno is pretty squishy, but if they press that block button it does a world of good. Also, how much self sufficiency are we talking about? Should an inferno be able to heal themselves through aggroing a boss in TA? Shoot, my DPS FFs can't even do that.
For leveling purposes, I have to say that ATs are self-sufficient simply due to the ease of the content. When I was silver I leveled quite a few ATs, and the game as an AT is less about trying to out-heal stuff and more about avoiding that damage. Some people might scoff at that, but I did it plenty - ATs have some pretty good tools available to play the "kill them before they kill you" game, and I think that's actually an important thing that they show off, namely that this game doesn't have to just be "dps while out-healing incoming damage". The issue might just be that some people only see self sufficiency in heals, and not in any of the other tools that ATs have.
And then there's the hybrids, which as expected are some of the most self sufficient ATs since they're "jack of all trades" types. This is another aspect of ATs that it's important to consider - you know what you're getting. When you pick a ranged dps, you know that's what you're getting. If what you wanted was a well rounded character, then the hybrid section should have been where you went looking. Sure, you might not find the theme you want there, but that's motivation to get one of those fancy FFs.
Personally I agree with that thing you said at the end. Just get rid of ATs alltogether. Give every silver player 1 free Free Form slot. For anyone who purchased any ATs or character slots, give them a number of Free Form Revolution tokens equaling however many Free Form slots the combined value of their AT and slot purchases would have given. They can trade these Free Form Revolution tokens in for either a retrain token to turn one of their ATs into a FF, or a new FF slot. Any ATs that aren't retrained can still be used. Then just ignore ATs when making future content.
Now me personally I like the concept of "non-trinity" content. Essentially, content where you don't have to have a Tank or a Healer; I'm biased because one of the things I hate in MMOs is sitting around waiting for a healer to bless our party with their presence, and then having to deal with their attitude if they have one because we don't want to spend more time waiting. Of course, given that CO is effectively built out of all the same pieces as a trinity MMO, the concept of this kind of content creates a few questions.
Question 1: How do you even do it? One such question is, how do you even make that kind of content? The way I might go about it would be to first of all remove the "focused damage" factor, which is essentially what causes the need for a tank by having a large central entity that will generally pound the bajeezus out of whoever they have targeted. Instead, if for example we have a single-enemy encounter, I would make it so that this boss essentially attacks everyone at the same time and there really is no central aggro target that takes the brunt of the damage. Think Gravitar, except she never actually "aggros" on a single target, and instead will randomly shift her focus among the various party members, and at times even target multiple players simultaneously. The second slant on this, which would make it so a healer is not required, is to include devastating attacks, or combinations of attacks, which are survivable so long as the player moves out of the way and/or blocks. Again, imagine Gravitar, but those cascades of hers are either made avoidable (such as in TA) or their damage is greatly lowered. Any non-avoidable damage would be lowered to the degree that using healing potions would be enough to make it through. The challenge of this fight would then come from the density of attacks that must be blocked/avoided, as well as other active mechanics such as Medusa's "go touch these things" or Grond's "drop this deadly thing in a good spot" devices.
Question 2: What happens to tanks, healers, and hybrids? Of course, this then leads to a separate question, and that is what place does a tank or healer then have in this encounter? Or even any form of hybrid? Why bring anything other than a pure dps class? The truth is that this is probably the reason we haven't really seen this form of content in the game, because it would seem that this issue is actually difficult to address. We could try to tune the content so that a tank could actually survive without having to block or evade attacks and thus the reasoning being that they're providing good damage on the boss because they can just stand'n'spam but that's both kind of uninteresting and risks having the meta slide in the other direction with people asking why bring anything other than a tank. Personally the only ways I can think of to address it is with various gimmicks like "have an NPC that reduces the boss's damage resistance but it dies easily, so if there's a healer there they can keep it a live" or having there be adds run around attacking everything so that having a tank there to gather them all up allows everyone else to dps the boss more consistently. These gimmicks might work, or they might just end up being ignored or exploited in some way.
Helper NPCs Another idea I've had is actually one I've seen at work in other games, and that's basically making content not require players to fill roles by having NPCs available that can fill them. For example you enter a lair and inside the lair you can pick from one of three NPCs to accompany you: Defender, Witchcraft, or Kinetic. Defender is the tank NPC and he basically just aggros everything in sight pretty reliably. He's also ridiculously tough to the point that he can survive anything without needing to block or avoid things... however, that means that he won't. Basically he'll get knocked by every knock, and he also won't try to position anything well, meaning that fights might start to get awkward as the boss points this way and that, runs around following Defender after knocking him, and all that goodness. Witchcraft is of course a healer, however she has a few weaknesses the party has to get around; when combat starts she casts a magic circle and refuses to leave it until combat ends, has limited range on her heals, and when she does heal it's a maintained heal and she wont switch targets until the maintain is done. Her healing gets the job done though so long as you can work around those. Kinetic is basically a dpser and he'll add some decent dps to the fight; however he's brittle and needs healing, is only single target, and basically sticks to whatever target in the fight has the most hit points, so he's not about to do anything other than make sure a decent amount of dps is being pumped into the boss. So the idea here is that you can fill whatever gap your party has with one of these NPCs, meaning you can just grab five people of whatever builds and go in. However, player tanks, dps, and healers will still be preferred ( in theory at least ) because of the various quirks that have been given to the NPCs that make them not perform as well as players, even though from a numeric standpoint they'll get the job done. Now of course it's entirely possible that people will just say stuff it and bring 5 dps, grab the tank npc and label that as the best way to do it and always do it that way.
So there's ways to approach non-trinity content that would still require people to do it as a team, to work as a team, to be challenged by it in some way but to not have to fill traditional trinity roles in order to be able to have a chance at any reasonable completion. There are issues with the concept, but if those issues can be worked out in a reasonable way then the content could be implemented. As for whether it should I really do think so. One reason is that there clearly are some people who want it, but more importantly because I think people would really enjoy it. When I picture it in my head, the types of challenges that would be required of content that doesn't require a healer or a tank would have to be very much focused around what players do from moment to moment in the fight, requiring all sorts of movement and reaction and decision making, and this would translate into some seriously action-packed content. The issue is making sure that it's that, rather than going for the low-hanging fruit approach.
I'm going to get so flamed for this statement. But I've put on my asbestos undergarments in preparation.
I really like how the Marvel MMO handled it's player character design. While not as open as CO -- the pre-mades are self-sufficient and also have team buffs. There is no "healer role" per se in the game, because their design philosophy is that healers don't fit the comic book theme. I haven't played that game in years, because I prefer CO... but that's a thing that stood out to me.
Honestly, I don't know why AT's were not designed that way. AT's should be reasonably self-sufficient but also be able to synch into team play when needed. That's the essence of super-hero IMHO. Of course the other option would be to ax AT's all together and just have everyone be FF.
Burn the witch! \( owo )/
No but, some ATs are self sufficient. Others aren't because they seem to be designed to show off a single framework. For example the Inferno only has damage, damage, and more damage, because that's what the Fire framework has. The Master on the other hand comes from a framework where you can make a good tank using just what's in that framework. I think there was also a conscious sense of "Don't make them too good otherwise people won't want to upgrade to a Free Form".
I mean, to be honest a lot of ATs suffer from a common problem, and that's the person playing them. An Inferno is pretty squishy, but if they press that block button it does a world of good. Also, how much self sufficiency are we talking about? Should an inferno be able to heal themselves through aggroing a boss in TA? Shoot, my DPS FFs can't even do that.
For leveling purposes, I have to say that ATs are self-sufficient simply due to the ease of the content. When I was silver I leveled quite a few ATs, and the game as an AT is less about trying to out-heal stuff and more about avoiding that damage. Some people might scoff at that, but I did it plenty - ATs have some pretty good tools available to play the "kill them before they kill you" game, and I think that's actually an important thing that they show off, namely that this game doesn't have to just be "dps while out-healing incoming damage". The issue might just be that some people only see self sufficiency in heals, and not in any of the other tools that ATs have.
And then there's the hybrids, which as expected are some of the most self sufficient ATs since they're "jack of all trades" types. This is another aspect of ATs that it's important to consider - you know what you're getting. When you pick a ranged dps, you know that's what you're getting. If what you wanted was a well rounded character, then the hybrid section should have been where you went looking. Sure, you might not find the theme you want there, but that's motivation to get one of those fancy FFs.
Personally I agree with that thing you said at the end. Just get rid of ATs alltogether. Give every silver player 1 free Free Form slot. For anyone who purchased any ATs or character slots, give them a number of Free Form Revolution tokens equaling however many Free Form slots the combined value of their AT and slot purchases would have given. They can trade these Free Form Revolution tokens in for either a retrain token to turn one of their ATs into a FF, or a new FF slot. Any ATs that aren't retrained can still be used. Then just ignore ATs when making future content.
At first, I read that last sentence thinking, "but then that would exclude ATs all together" but then, if their getting FF slots, why even make an AT when you have access to FF?
Buffing everything to stupid high levels and nerfing everything to piss poor levels yields the same results, but not the same community reactions.
At first, I read that last sentence thinking, "but then that would exclude ATs all together" but then, if their getting FF slots, why even make an AT when you have access to FF?
They could put a little info window somewhere that says "Feeling overwhelmed by picking powers for your freeform? Try one of these Archetypes to get a feel for how the game plays, but be aware that these are ONLY training characters and will start to fall behind later on." If the player takes the deal, they pick an AT for their current character slot and it becomes that. At any point they can turn it into any of the other ATs for free. Also, they can at any point revert it to the FF that it was before with the same build, for free.
At first, I read that last sentence thinking, "but then that would exclude ATs all together" but then, if their getting FF slots, why even make an AT when you have access to FF?
They could put a little info window somewhere that says "Feeling overwhelmed by picking powers for your freeform? Try one of these Archetypes to get a feel for how the game plays, but be aware that these are ONLY training characters and will start to fall behind later on." If the player takes the deal, they pick an AT for their current character slot and it becomes that. At any point they can turn it into any of the other ATs for free. Also, they can at any point revert it to the FF that it was before with the same build, for free.
Totally. I believe they tried that too, when first introducing ATs? Not too sure, wasn't around back then. But, it definately needs to be added, and maybe, I dunno? A guide to the ATs? not the crummy ones that the devs had in their descriptions, no, I mean take some of these guides made by players and make them official.
Buffing everything to stupid high levels and nerfing everything to piss poor levels yields the same results, but not the same community reactions.
Are we talking about future content? because the majority of the existing content is not team focused and that's not going to change.
The team experience in CO was basically non extant before On Alert. Now CO is starting to fill in those gaps which is a good thing. Some form of roles is basically necessary for team play. You cant have football with all quarterbacks or basket ball with all point guards.
Every MMO should support some kind of team play because Social interaction brings stability and profitability to online entities (MMOs, Social media, ect) The social connections formed in WOW play a big role in player retention. I have come across many people in real life who play WOW not because its the best MMO, but because that's where their coworkers/friends/family are.
I will add that some solo content is necessary for MMOs to cater to those who don't like teaming or don't have time for it, but CO has enough soloable content that that is not an issue.
CO needs money and does not have funds or clout to experiment in redefining what it means to team in MMOs. Since roles/teaming/"trinity" are good for the bottom line, and the game needs money, the answer to to OP is obvious. This is no different than the necessity of lock boxes.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
The OP's question is too broad to answer with a singular answer, because there are really 2 different questions:
1: should the game's content be *group* focused?
2: should the game's *group* content be trinity focused?
Regarding #1, I am going to say "no". While *some* group content is great, I don't think the *majority* of content should be. Regarding #2, my answer would be "maybe". I think having a trinity type group should possibly give you an advantage, but not necessarily be a requirement.
The OP's question is too broad to answer with a singular answer, because there are really 2 different questions:
1: should the game's content be *group* focused?
2: should the game's *group* content be trinity focused?
Regarding #1, I am going to say "no". While *some* group content is great, I don't think the *majority* of content should be. Regarding #2, my answer would be "maybe". I think having a trinity type group should possibly give you an advantage, but not necessarily be a requirement.
But ya gotta be careful with #2, because then the players will see this advantage as a necessity to gain an edge on content like TA, then boom! Trinity takes over group content
Buffing everything to stupid high levels and nerfing everything to piss poor levels yields the same results, but not the same community reactions.
That's really up to the poster and how they want to frame their opinion. It's also okay for people to post their opinion without consideration of the realities of the business side, in a sort of "if nothing stood in the way of the game adopting my vision" way. This thread is purely for discussion of the idea of "trinity vs non-trinity" and which people think would be the better choice - how they want to frame why it would be the better choice and what would be effected is up to them. I'm also hoping to see some more people address the topic of how 'non-trinity' content would actually be implemented, since that's interesting stuff that might give devs some ideas
If it's not the best it's the worst. That's how people playing mmos work in group content.
Actually, not really. I never said this would become CO's fate, just expressing what all trinity entails, not necessarily in application to CO. I love grouping, in CoH, grouping's great! And here it's not mandatory/not bad. I can work pretty well in a group(especially as a support).
Buffing everything to stupid high levels and nerfing everything to piss poor levels yields the same results, but not the same community reactions.
If it's not the best it's the worst. That's how people playing mmos work in group content.
Actually, not really. I never said this would become CO's fate, just expressing what all trinity entails, not necessarily in application to CO. I love grouping, in CoH, grouping's great! And here it's not mandatory/not bad. I can work pretty well in a group(especially as a support).
When more trinity content is added overall player behavior will shift to trinity standards and Censoredcraft, for good or ill, is the standard bearer of trinity content and its fine upstanding community.
This is my Risian Corvette. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
If it's not the best it's the worst. That's how people playing mmos work in group content.
Actually, not really. I never said this would become CO's fate, just expressing what all trinity entails, not necessarily in application to CO. I love grouping, in CoH, grouping's great! And here it's not mandatory/not bad. I can work pretty well in a group(especially as a support).
When more trinity content is added overall player behavior will shift to trinity standards and Censoredcraft, for good or ill, is the standard bearer of trinity content and its fine upstanding community.
Buffing everything to stupid high levels and nerfing everything to piss poor levels yields the same results, but not the same community reactions.
When more trinity content is added overall player behavior will shift to trinity standards and Censoredcraft, for good or ill, is the standard bearer of trinity content and its fine upstanding community.
Eh, that's the negative take on it. Tera has it's fair share of elitist culture, but I still managed to run stuff and get loot over there just by puggung. I doubt it'll be any different here. People are always a bit standoffish when something first goes live here, but a month or so down the road everyone's doing and it's no big deal. We just don't have the culture here that those other games have ( though I will admit I have seen a very small handful of people who didn't get the memo on that, lol ).
When more trinity content is added overall player behavior will shift to trinity standards and Censoredcraft, for good or ill, is the standard bearer of trinity content and its fine upstanding community.
Eh, that's the negative take on it. Tera has it's fair share of elitist culture, but I still managed to run stuff and get loot over there just by puggung. I doubt it'll be any different here. People are always a bit standoffish when something first goes live here, but a month or so down the road everyone's doing and it's no big deal. We just don't have the culture here that those other games have ( though I will admit I have seen a very small handful of people who didn't get the memo on that, lol ).
TERA, as far as I know, has always been a trinity game. It's also a bit of a different beast with its lack of tab targeting and tanks being expected to block/avoid damage most of the time and not just when the big "active defense" buttons are off their cool down.
I'd rather not have trinity culture take root here. The bean counters always seem to chase the raider types but raiders are basically locusts, devour content and then move on, not a steady revenue stream, on top of demanding that new content is solely theirs.
This is my Risian Corvette. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
That's really up to the poster and how they want to frame their opinion. It's also okay for people to post their opinion without consideration of the realities of the business side, in a sort of "if nothing stood in the way of the game adopting my vision" way. This thread is purely for discussion of the idea of "trinity vs non-trinity" and which people think would be the better choice - how they want to frame why it would be the better choice and what would be effected is up to them. I'm also hoping to see some more people address the topic of how 'non-trinity' content would actually be implemented, since that's interesting stuff that might give devs some ideas
In that case, I'll say that CO should have about the solo:teaming ratio that COX had. And I think they are both reasonably flexible in how important it classic trinity roles are or aren't.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
TERA, as far as I know, has always been a trinity game.
Well yes, that would be part of my point. It's a trinity game, and not just that it's a trinity game where healers and tanks are in short supply ( the tank issue was mitigated a bit recently ), and that is known for it's elitist cults. However, even there I was able to run content without having to sell my soul to the raging raid leaders the way a lot of people had to do in WoW. WoW's end game was basically "You wanna participate, you have to deal with them". In a lot of games, that's not the case, and I think it's the case the least in CO.
The moment we get somewhat more difficult content everyone falls back into a trinity role. I think that shows well what type of game CO is, hyrbid/dps for easy content, trinity for anything challenging.
The moment we get somewhat more difficult content everyone falls back into a trinity role. I think that shows well what type of game CO is, hyrbid/dps for easy content, trinity for anything challenging.
This. At the moment, it's fairly well-balanced (comparative to other MMOs).
It's entirely possible within CO's build system, if you're freeform, to make a full team of people that can all handle a sufficient portion of the tanking/healing/DPS'ing roles to clear TA, without anyone being a full-time "Tank" or "Healer".
The problem is that builds like that aren't exactly plug and play into any party, and setting them up requires a lot of coordination and communication that most people aren't going to want to deal with.
It's simpler and faster to default to expecting a certain level of tankiness/sustain/aggro for the "tanks", the ability to heal through Genetic Siphon on a "healer" and "can eventually kill things" for DPS.
It's more about the nature of people than the nature of the game, really.
The moment we get somewhat more difficult content everyone falls back into a trinity role. I think that shows well what type of game CO is, hyrbid/dps for easy content, trinity for anything challenging.
This. At the moment, it's fairly well-balanced (comparative to other MMOs).
It's entirely possible within CO's build system, if you're freeform, to make a full team of people that can all handle a sufficient portion of the tanking/healing/DPS'ing roles to clear TA, without anyone being a full-time "Tank" or "Healer".
The problem is that builds like that aren't exactly plug and play into any party, and setting them up requires a lot of coordination and communication that most people aren't going to want to deal with.
It's simpler and faster to default to expecting a certain level of tankiness/sustain/aggro for the "tanks", the ability to heal through Genetic Siphon on a "healer" and "can eventually kill things" for DPS.
It's more about the nature of people than the nature of the game, really.
True but that last sentence should flip. It is the nature of the game that determines its' people. Look at how it's set up for teams from the ground up:
Teams are 5 player max(for general content, not including rampage)-in other games this is the dynamic, which leads to: 1 tank, 1 Healer, 3 DPS.
Gear grinds are present and associated with other games that not only have them, but also what's listed above
Round-robin for items, a trinity-game classic.
These three things help determine the mindset of the player in group content as, "Okay, this requires a Tank/Heal/DPS set-up", hence why all these TA runs have a Tank, a Healer, and DPS set up.
Buffing everything to stupid high levels and nerfing everything to piss poor levels yields the same results, but not the same community reactions.
But he looks like he's happy and having fun. If he was a healer he should look miserable and stressed out due to playing the most demanding role that also happens to be the least satisfying and the first one blamed whenever a dps screws up and gets themselves killed or when a tank isn't good enough at blocking attacks o3o *Tera flashbacks*
But he looks like he's happy and having fun. If he was a healer he should look miserable and stressed out due to playing the most demanding role that also happens to be the least satisfying and the first one blamed whenever a dps screws up and gets themselves killed or when a tank isn't good enough at blocking attacks o3o *Tera flashbacks*
In the hierarchy of blame, dps can only blame themselves when they die.
This is my Risian Corvette. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
I agree with this. The nature of players can only go so far within the rules set by the game. The only reason people can/do resort to trinity roles is because those tools exist, those tools are effective, and because the design of the content gives obvious benefits to groups utilizing those roles ( central entity that dishes out tons of damage to its current aggro target and directional/pbaoe attacks that can quickly damage players very quickly ).
I will point out that the design of TA specifically points to a group of 2 tanks, 1 healer, and then two whatever. The last two spots can be just about anything because the lair doesn't have any real dps races ( Teliousaurus' regen is actually really easy to overcome ) so you could bring whatever you want for those last two spots. In fact I would say that, for the groups I've been in, it's pretty common that those two spots actually don't have two dps role characters in them.
So this actually leads to an interesting little thing to look at, and that is: what does trinity content mean when applied to our freeform powers system? After all, it's not as if the game is ever going to go to a full on rigid class system - it'd be more likely that they'd get rid of archetypes that it is that they'd nix the freeform system. Given that, let's go over what appears to be the requirement of the roles so we can analyze just what exactly people have to 'give up' in order to do the trinity thing:
Freeform Tank: 1. Tank role or Hybrid role ( depending on build ) 2. Defensive passive ( maybe )
So, that list seems short, but that's because anything else I added to it would be optional. Heck, the only reason I put defensive passive on there is because it's very very common for tanks to have that, but as my other thread shows someone has done it without a defensive passive. People might argue that you need self-healing or active defensives or a block replacer, but these aren't necessary to fill the 'role' of tank. All you actually need, in what trinity content we have thus far, is the ability to hold the aggro, and block the attacks you need to block.
Freeform Healer: 1. A healing power 2. Support role or Hybrid role ( depending on build )
Again, short list. Notice I didn't include a passive at all here, and that's because I often see people running a passive that does not improve their heals at all, and sometimes I do. This means that the healer's ability to heal, without a passive, is enough to get through the encounters.
Freeform DPS: 1. A damage power
This one's short for obvious reasons.
Keep in mind that I'm talking about absolute requirements that you need to fill these roles. You can grab a lot of other tools to make the task easier, but you don't have to. So, on the possibility of trinity content threatening our ability to build as we like, I don't think there's too big a threat there.
On the count of "being able to bring whoever we want" there is a bit of something there. I'm curious to see though just how far we can take this healer thing - could a dps who happens to have a healing power just hop into support role and heal a party? What about a number of dps who just happen to have healing powers... if they all just agreed "we work together to heal up whoever's hurt" would they then be able to substitute for having an actual healer, without having to switch their Roles? I guess this is the part where the "nature of people" comes into play, because despite there clearly being a lot of wiggle room in our game when it comes to trinity scenarios, most people aren't willing to wiggle into it. Maybe we should start wiggling?
These three things help determine the mindset of the player in group content as, "Okay, this requires a Tank/Heal/DPS set-up", hence why all these TA runs have a Tank, a Healer, and DPS set up.
Except TA needs either two Tanks (main and off-tank/Add-Tank) or a Tank and a pretty skilled Crowd Control player, because it's the first set of fights in the game where it's not trivial to just DPS the adds down.
So it's already breaking the "Tank, Healer, 3 DPS" setup.
Could probably also do it with everyone being sorta tanky hybrids and just rotating the adds around when people need a breather, but that requires coordination, communication and knowing what other builds are going to be on the team.
Compare the adds there to something like Therakiel's Temple or Nemcon (which, coincidentally, are the last real non-Alert level-capped group content we've gotten) and you'll see what I mean.
Agreed. As someone who was practically forced to change their main from hybrid to dps, I know exactly what you mean.
TA's friendlier to hybrid setups than most other group content (in that healing and a bit of tankiness are more valuable there). There's no enrage timers and they're more fights of endurance than DPS races.
More content like this would mean hybrids were more valued, not less. Assuming the playerbase's expectations are willing to work with that.
Playing a min-HP, all-out glass cannon DPS is fine in content where incoming attacks on you are either trivial or rare, but TA's adds and the Genetic Siphon setup mean that it's a lot more hectic, and you get comparatively more value out of dialing down your DPS a few notches in exchange for the ability to not die or to throw out useful Crowd Control. Compared again to, say, TT or Nemcon.
On the count of "being able to bring whoever we want" there is a bit of something there. I'm curious to see though just how far we can take this healer thing - could a dps who happens to have a healing power just hop into support role and heal a party?
There are some unusual builds that should be able to do it, but I don't think you can crank out enough healing to deal with genetic siphon in the 30-40 stack range without some serious heal strength buffs. Could probably do it with multiple characters with a heal though (degenerate cases like Team Lifedrain, for example).
You can certainly run without an offtank -- we ran last night with tank, dps, and 3x support, and while a bit chaotic it worked. Managing without a main tank seems harder (mostly because Grond) though with strong support doable.
These three things help determine the mindset of the player in group content as, "Okay, this requires a Tank/Heal/DPS set-up", hence why all these TA runs have a Tank, a Healer, and DPS set up.
Except TA needs either two Tanks (main and off-tank/Add-Tank) or a Tank and a pretty skilled Crowd Control player, because it's the first set of fights in the game where it's not trivial to just DPS the adds down.
So it's already breaking the "Tank, Healer, 3 DPS" setup.
Could probably also do it with everyone being sorta tanky hybrids and just rotating the adds around when people need a breather, but that requires coordination, communication and knowing what other builds are going to be on the team.
Compare the adds there to something like Therakiel's Temple or Nemcon (which, coincidentally, are the last real non-Alert level-capped group content we've gotten) and you'll see what I mean.
Agreed. As someone who was practically forced to change their main from hybrid to dps, I know exactly what you mean.
TA's friendlier to hybrid setups than most other group content (in that self-healing and a bit of tankiness are more valuable there). There's no enrage timers and they're more fights of endurance than DPS races.
More content like this would mean hybrids were more valued, not less. Assuming the playerbase's expectations are willing to work with that.
Playing a min-HP, all-out glass cannon DPS is fine in content where incoming attacks on you are either trivial or rare, but TA's adds and the Genetic Siphon setup mean that it's a lot more hectic, and you get comparatively more value out of dialing down your DPS a few notches in exchange for the ability to not die or to throw out useful Crowd Control. Compared again to, say, TT or Nemcon.
Only with the off-tank, as he acts as both the tank and a CC, controlling adds/either not defeating them to control the flow of adds or defeating them in a precise manner conducive to the fight. You still need a healer, so just as it "broke" the trinity, it hits right back in with that needing of a healer. As I've been saying though(and have been argued against on multiple times), not requiring that healer or that tank(through self-sufficient DPS) would be what I consider to eliminate trinity in TA, but so far I've not seen it.
Buffing everything to stupid high levels and nerfing everything to piss poor levels yields the same results, but not the same community reactions.
As far as "healing requirements" go...I'm pretty sure you could clear TA without a dedicated healer. Bring a sturdy main Tank (they'll need good self-healing), a character with really good crowd control duration and have everyone but the tank bring a max rank Redemption or Divine Renewal. They can be DPS otherwise, though even a single self-healing power would slow down their time to die quite a bit.
I specify "Crowd Control duration" and not "off-tank" because you want them to be free to move within range of the rest of the group when the adds are controlled.
Since the Rez powers scale off the target's max HP %, you don't need any Healing Strength at all. Timing and setup may be tricky though, since when someone eats it due to Genetic Siphon someone that doesn't have the debuff at all would have to be the one doing the reviving (it interrupts).
And if it gets on the tank, you need to get it off them as fast as possible.
Otherwise, should be doable.
This sort of thing is probably why they haven't gone the "interact to rez" route.
As far as "healing requirements" go...I'm pretty sure you could clear TA without a dedicated healer. Bring a sturdy main Tank (they'll need good self-healing), a character with really good crowd control duration and have everyone but the tank bring a max rank Redemption or Divine Renewal. They can be DPS otherwise, though even a single self-healing power would slow down their time to die quite a bit.
I specify "Crowd Control duration" and not "off-tank" because you want them to be free to move within range of the rest of the group when the adds are controlled.
Since the Rez powers scale off the target'smax HP %, you don't need any Healing Strength at all. Timing and setup may be tricky though, since when someone eats it due to Genetic Siphon someone that doesn't have the debuff at all would have to be the one doing the reviving (it interrupts).
And if it gets on the tank, you need to get it off them as fast as possible.
Otherwise, should be doable.
Oh I agree..I simply want to see it in action(not only to reassure myself trinity isn't needed, but to prove spar wrong that group content that doesn't play like WoW is good).
Buffing everything to stupid high levels and nerfing everything to piss poor levels yields the same results, but not the same community reactions.
The thing I find crazy, is that no MMO player ever asked for the trinity to be removed. No MMO player ever asked for MMOs to feel single player. Game devs just did it and with the way MMOs have gone in the last 10 years and the updates many of them have (including this game). It's extremely clear that: MMO devs don't actually play MMOs themselves and they're only listening to the extremely vocal but very very tiny PVP crowd who need to just go and play glorified deathmatch games like LoL and DOTA and stop trying to turn every single MMO into those games.
I'm sorry, but you can't make nearly impossible content like TA and continue making ever single hero weaker by breaking (or "nerfing") the powers they use. Have the game devs not considered maybe players don't use certain powers because they're useless and not effective? People need powerful attacks in this game and heavy defense because there are a very very tiny amount of support players because the game doesn't reward player support. It only rewards the person who can create a build that deals decent damage, has tank like defense (the only thing that doesn't die after 5 or 6 hits in this game) and has at least one or two ways to self heal.
It's like the game punishes you for for making a concept build, and the dev's solution is to keep concept characters weak but then make everything else weak so everyone can be weak and useless together. If you're going to take your time sniffing out powers to make weaker, why not take the time to buff weak powers instead. I mean, it's really not a big deal in the long run. But all I'm saying is, maybe listen to the player base and not just the players who care only about the utterly useless PVPing RenCen
The thing I find crazy, is that no MMO player ever asked for the trinity to be removed. No MMO player ever asked for MMOs to feel single player. Game devs just did it and with the way MMOs have gone in the last 10 years and the updates many of them have (including this game). It's extremely clear that: MMO devs don't actually play MMOs themselves and they're only listening to the extremely vocal but very very tiny PVP crowd who need to just go and play glorified deathmatch games like LoL and DOTA and stop trying to turn every single MMO into those games.
I'm sorry, but you can't make nearly impossible content like TA and continue making ever single hero weaker by breaking (or "nerfing") the powers they use. Have the game devs not considered maybe players don't use certain powers because they're useless and not effective? People need powerful attacks in this game and heavy defense because there are a very very tiny amount of support players because the game doesn't reward player support. It only rewards the person who can create a build that deals decent damage, has tank like defense (the only thing that doesn't die after 5 or 6 hits in this game) and has at least one or two ways to self heal.
It's like the game punishes you for for making a concept build, and the dev's solution is to keep concept characters weak but then make everything else weak so everyone can be weak and useless together. If you're going to take your time sniffing out powers to make weaker, why not take the time to buff weak powers instead. I mean, it's really not a big deal in the long run. But all I'm saying is, maybe listen to the player base and not just the players who care only about the utterly useless PVPing RenCen
Does not wanting the trinity to spread to non-trinity games count as wanting the trinity removed?
Trinity is lazy design and fosters toxic communities even tardigrades can't survive.
This is my Risian Corvette. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Sounds just like Censoredcraft, X gearscore or GTFO.
Gearscore hasn't been a thing for quite a while (though Looking for Raid does require clearing a solo thing, IIRC).
Main thing is, WoW's built around playing a role. Think of it like a play. You have the part, you play it to the best of your ability. People expect, say, the actor playing Romeo to deliver Romeo's lines.
Or for a comics viewpoint, people expect Wolverine to *SNIKT* things and Batman to plan things and you probably won't see Superman shooting someone with a gun (barring the 90s...).
Guild Wars 2 was supposed to be more of a freeform, "do it your own way, make your own build" sort of thing. Heavily advertised as "don't have to wait for a healer" and "action combat".
But in reality it became worse than WoW, because the play that you were expected to perform only had room for the actors that ran glass-cannon gear and stabbed things in the face.
It's like putting together a Justice League team composed entirely of Deathstroke. Everyone who isn't-that gets ostracized.
As opposed to the WoW method, where there's pretty much always a spot for an Aquaman or a Booster Gold, even though sometimes you'd kill things faster if you had a team consisting entirely of Flashes shooting things with laser guns.
(this is the worst mixed-metaphor thing I think I've ever written, I'll try to clean it up later)
Nothing says "build diversity" and "teamwork" like "link Berserker gear or be kicked" for a dungeon run.
That actually doesn't tell us anything about build diversity -- it tells us that there's a set of 'best' gear and at least some subset of players things that said best gear is a requirement for a given lair. It's perfectly possible to demand "Link Justice gear or be kicked" in CO.
That actually doesn't tell us anything about build diversity -- it tells us that there's a set of 'best' gear and at least some subset of players things that said best gear is a requirement for a given lair. It's perfectly possible to demand "Link Justice gear or be kicked" in CO.
Should've specified.
Stat sets on gear in GW2 were named combos. Gear quality (Normal, Rare, Exotic, etc) would be more equivalent to Greens/Blues/Heroics/Justice gear here. Exotics (highest tier available for armor at the time) were buyable on the Auction House for relatively cheap.
So basically you bought or crafted the equivalent of Justice-level gear with the stats you wanted (like having mods pre-slotted here).
There weren't different stats available on different pieces (so no Offense, Defense, Utility slots like here). Everything could run the same type of stats.
"Berserker" was Power (basic damage stat, think of pure Superstat Damage bonus here), Critical Chance, Critical Severity.
The equivalent in CO would be something like...
Filling every mod slot on all your gear with Dex and Str mods and crit strike/offense (even the defense/utility slots), because you could, because there was no DR on offensive stats, End/Rec/Int didn't exist and Con/Pre were worthless.
Specifically Dex/Str because ranged combat was worthless in PvE there and melee greatly outdamaged it.
Defensive stats were devalued because the auto-attacks from enemies were negligible if you burned them down quickly enough and the big hits would one-shot you if you got hit.
Healing stats were devalued because "they didn't want healers". Healing coefficients (the amount they scaled with the stag "Healing Power" on gear) were awful on almost everything (self-heals were some of the few exceptions).
It was like everyone having Justice Gear and everyone that wasn't Dex/Str/x being kicked. Not the quality, the stat selection.
Simple 'tank and spank' is lazy design. Allowing and encouraging characters to specialize and use teamwork is not.
^ I agree with that, in case anyone was wondering. Trinity content is only lazy when it's designed lazily. The basic structure of trinity itself is no more lazy than "everything can be dodged". Heck, you could probably find someone who would say "everything can be dodged" gameplay is lazy because then they don't even have to design roles or shape the gameplay to fit those roles. Hell, you want 'lazy'? Let's make a first person shooter. Of course, none of these is 'lazy', they're just basic gameplay structures, none of which is inherently weaker, less interesting, or less difficult to implement. The only people who say "trinity is lazy" are people who have never created a trinity game - when you actually try to do it, you find out it's just as much work as making any other kind of game. You also find out that it doesn't bar any sort of creativity on the part of the designers - in fact, you could argue that it requires more creativity because instead of just making content that's engaging for a bunch of dps with dodge ability, you're making content that has to be interesting for tanks, healers, and dps. In fact, yet again, you could argue that a trinity game can include anything that those dodger games have... hell, look at Gravitar. When you really analyze things, you actually realize that the fully non-trinity games are actually somewhat less interesting - if you're only looking at the most basic aspect of course, because once you start to look at the complete picture of these games you realize that you can't determine how interesting they are based on the most basic framework of their gameplay alone.
Heres the thing if people want to ignore trinity nothing you can do about it. If they want to want to play trinity style with other players still nothing you can do about it.
CO has never really cared for trinity and each side shouting NO U at each other aint gonna change that. Games way to old to be really changed too much.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
Heres the thing if people want to ignore trinity nothing you can do about it. If they want to want to play trinity style with other players still nothing you can do about it.
CO has never really cared for trinity and each side shouting NO U at each other aint gonna change that. Games way to old to be really changed too much.
Positron thought putting in grindy raids with character bound elite currency was a good idea for CoH so too old isn't a defense against stupid major changes.
This is my Risian Corvette. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Heres the thing if people want to ignore trinity nothing you can do about it. If they want to want to play trinity style with other players still nothing you can do about it.
CO has never really cared for trinity and each side shouting NO U at each other aint gonna change that. Games way to old to be really changed too much.
Positron thought putting in grindy raids with character bound elite currency was a good idea for CoH so too old isn't a defense against stupid major changes.
True but the previous game did not have Freeform. With Freeform a player can be a tank, dps and a healer. If people really enjoy trinity gameplay I say even if your gold play as an AT there are plenty of AT guilds in the game that are all about Trinity play. Im not saying Trinity is a bad thing as I've been enjoying that type of gameplay on many other game but with CO its not really important.
But you can have that gameplay here if you team right so its all good ^_^
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
Except once I switched to glass cannon I could complete TA much better because grond stopped defaulting to me over the tank 99% of the time and only started doing it 20% of the time.
Force cascade builds suck as add tanks.
So here's my question: Why were you in hybrid role? If being in hybrid didn't give you the survival ability to not get thumped, then what did it give you? What value did hybrid role have to you? Note that I will accept a "I just felt like it" type answer, but I will feel the need to point out that "just feeling like it" provides no tactical value.
Except once I switched to glass cannon I could complete TA much better because grond stopped defaulting to me over the tank 99% of the time and only started doing it 20% of the time.
Force cascade builds suck as add tanks.
So here's my question: Why were you in hybrid role? If being in hybrid didn't give you the survival ability to not get thumped, then what did it give you? What value did hybrid role have to you? Note that I will accept a "I just felt like it" type answer, but I will feel the need to point out that "just feeling like it" provides no tactical value.
Sometimes passives "force" you into hybrid. Seraphim on a blaster type or Regeneration on a scrapper type and you'll have to run in Hybrid instead of Ranged or Melee.
This is my Risian Corvette. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Comments
42 40s, LTSer.
No but, some ATs are self sufficient. Others aren't because they seem to be designed to show off a single framework. For example the Inferno only has damage, damage, and more damage, because that's what the Fire framework has. The Master on the other hand comes from a framework where you can make a good tank using just what's in that framework. I think there was also a conscious sense of "Don't make them too good otherwise people won't want to upgrade to a Free Form".
I mean, to be honest a lot of ATs suffer from a common problem, and that's the person playing them. An Inferno is pretty squishy, but if they press that block button it does a world of good. Also, how much self sufficiency are we talking about? Should an inferno be able to heal themselves through aggroing a boss in TA? Shoot, my DPS FFs can't even do that.
For leveling purposes, I have to say that ATs are self-sufficient simply due to the ease of the content. When I was silver I leveled quite a few ATs, and the game as an AT is less about trying to out-heal stuff and more about avoiding that damage. Some people might scoff at that, but I did it plenty - ATs have some pretty good tools available to play the "kill them before they kill you" game, and I think that's actually an important thing that they show off, namely that this game doesn't have to just be "dps while out-healing incoming damage". The issue might just be that some people only see self sufficiency in heals, and not in any of the other tools that ATs have.
And then there's the hybrids, which as expected are some of the most self sufficient ATs since they're "jack of all trades" types. This is another aspect of ATs that it's important to consider - you know what you're getting. When you pick a ranged dps, you know that's what you're getting. If what you wanted was a well rounded character, then the hybrid section should have been where you went looking. Sure, you might not find the theme you want there, but that's motivation to get one of those fancy FFs.
Personally I agree with that thing you said at the end. Just get rid of ATs alltogether. Give every silver player 1 free Free Form slot. For anyone who purchased any ATs or character slots, give them a number of Free Form Revolution tokens equaling however many Free Form slots the combined value of their AT and slot purchases would have given. They can trade these Free Form Revolution tokens in for either a retrain token to turn one of their ATs into a FF, or a new FF slot. Any ATs that aren't retrained can still be used. Then just ignore ATs when making future content.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
42 40s, LTSer.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
42 40s, LTSer.
The team experience in CO was basically non extant before On Alert. Now CO is starting to fill in those gaps which is a good thing. Some form of roles is basically necessary for team play. You cant have football with all quarterbacks or basket ball with all point guards.
Every MMO should support some kind of team play because Social interaction brings stability and profitability to online entities (MMOs, Social media, ect) The social connections formed in WOW play a big role in player retention. I have come across many people in real life who play WOW not because its the best MMO, but because that's where their coworkers/friends/family are.
I will add that some solo content is necessary for MMOs to cater to those who don't like teaming or don't have time for it, but CO has enough soloable content that that is not an issue.
CO needs money and does not have funds or clout to experiment in redefining what it means to team in MMOs. Since roles/teaming/"trinity" are good for the bottom line, and the game needs money, the answer to to OP is obvious. This is no different than the necessity of lock boxes.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
1: should the game's content be *group* focused?
2: should the game's *group* content be trinity focused?
Regarding #1, I am going to say "no". While *some* group content is great, I don't think the *majority* of content should be. Regarding #2, my answer would be "maybe". I think having a trinity type group should possibly give you an advantage, but not necessarily be a requirement.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
42 40s, LTSer.
42 40s, LTSer.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
42 40s, LTSer.
42 40s, LTSer.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I'd rather not have trinity culture take root here. The bean counters always seem to chase the raider types but raiders are basically locusts, devour content and then move on, not a steady revenue stream, on top of demanding that new content is solely theirs.
And I think they are both reasonably flexible in how important it classic trinity roles are or aren't.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
It's entirely possible within CO's build system, if you're freeform, to make a full team of people that can all handle a sufficient portion of the tanking/healing/DPS'ing roles to clear TA, without anyone being a full-time "Tank" or "Healer".
The problem is that builds like that aren't exactly plug and play into any party, and setting them up requires a lot of coordination and communication that most people aren't going to want to deal with.
It's simpler and faster to default to expecting a certain level of tankiness/sustain/aggro for the "tanks", the ability to heal through Genetic Siphon on a "healer" and "can eventually kill things" for DPS.
It's more about the nature of people than the nature of the game, really.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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The user formerly known as Dr. Sage.
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- Teams are 5 player max(for general content, not including rampage)-in other games this is the dynamic, which leads to: 1 tank, 1 Healer, 3 DPS.
- Gear grinds are present and associated with other games that not only have them, but also what's listed above
- Round-robin for items, a trinity-game classic.
These three things help determine the mindset of the player in group content as, "Okay, this requires a Tank/Heal/DPS set-up", hence why all these TA runs have a Tank, a Healer, and DPS set up.42 40s, LTSer.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I will point out that the design of TA specifically points to a group of 2 tanks, 1 healer, and then two whatever. The last two spots can be just about anything because the lair doesn't have any real dps races ( Teliousaurus' regen is actually really easy to overcome ) so you could bring whatever you want for those last two spots. In fact I would say that, for the groups I've been in, it's pretty common that those two spots actually don't have two dps role characters in them.
So this actually leads to an interesting little thing to look at, and that is: what does trinity content mean when applied to our freeform powers system? After all, it's not as if the game is ever going to go to a full on rigid class system - it'd be more likely that they'd get rid of archetypes that it is that they'd nix the freeform system. Given that, let's go over what appears to be the requirement of the roles so we can analyze just what exactly people have to 'give up' in order to do the trinity thing:
Freeform Tank:
1. Tank role or Hybrid role ( depending on build )
2. Defensive passive ( maybe )
So, that list seems short, but that's because anything else I added to it would be optional. Heck, the only reason I put defensive passive on there is because it's very very common for tanks to have that, but as my other thread shows someone has done it without a defensive passive. People might argue that you need self-healing or active defensives or a block replacer, but these aren't necessary to fill the 'role' of tank. All you actually need, in what trinity content we have thus far, is the ability to hold the aggro, and block the attacks you need to block.
Freeform Healer:
1. A healing power
2. Support role or Hybrid role ( depending on build )
Again, short list. Notice I didn't include a passive at all here, and that's because I often see people running a passive that does not improve their heals at all, and sometimes I do. This means that the healer's ability to heal, without a passive, is enough to get through the encounters.
Freeform DPS:
1. A damage power
This one's short for obvious reasons.
Keep in mind that I'm talking about absolute requirements that you need to fill these roles. You can grab a lot of other tools to make the task easier, but you don't have to. So, on the possibility of trinity content threatening our ability to build as we like, I don't think there's too big a threat there.
On the count of "being able to bring whoever we want" there is a bit of something there. I'm curious to see though just how far we can take this healer thing - could a dps who happens to have a healing power just hop into support role and heal a party? What about a number of dps who just happen to have healing powers... if they all just agreed "we work together to heal up whoever's hurt" would they then be able to substitute for having an actual healer, without having to switch their Roles? I guess this is the part where the "nature of people" comes into play, because despite there clearly being a lot of wiggle room in our game when it comes to trinity scenarios, most people aren't willing to wiggle into it. Maybe we should start wiggling?
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
So it's already breaking the "Tank, Healer, 3 DPS" setup.
Could probably also do it with everyone being sorta tanky hybrids and just rotating the adds around when people need a breather, but that requires coordination, communication and knowing what other builds are going to be on the team.
Compare the adds there to something like Therakiel's Temple or Nemcon (which, coincidentally, are the last real non-Alert level-capped group content we've gotten) and you'll see what I mean. TA's friendlier to hybrid setups than most other group content (in that healing and a bit of tankiness are more valuable there). There's no enrage timers and they're more fights of endurance than DPS races.
More content like this would mean hybrids were more valued, not less. Assuming the playerbase's expectations are willing to work with that.
Playing a min-HP, all-out glass cannon DPS is fine in content where incoming attacks on you are either trivial or rare, but TA's adds and the Genetic Siphon setup mean that it's a lot more hectic, and you get comparatively more value out of dialing down your DPS a few notches in exchange for the ability to not die or to throw out useful Crowd Control. Compared again to, say, TT or Nemcon.
Edit: Adding as a different comment instead.
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The user formerly known as Dr. Sage.
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You can certainly run without an offtank -- we ran last night with tank, dps, and 3x support, and while a bit chaotic it worked. Managing without a main tank seems harder (mostly because Grond) though with strong support doable.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
42 40s, LTSer.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I specify "Crowd Control duration" and not "off-tank" because you want them to be free to move within range of the rest of the group when the adds are controlled.
Since the Rez powers scale off the target's max HP %, you don't need any Healing Strength at all. Timing and setup may be tricky though, since when someone eats it due to Genetic Siphon someone that doesn't have the debuff at all would have to be the one doing the reviving (it interrupts).
And if it gets on the tank, you need to get it off them as fast as possible.
Otherwise, should be doable.
This sort of thing is probably why they haven't gone the "interact to rez" route.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
_______________________________
The user formerly known as Dr. Sage.
_______________________________
42 40s, LTSer.
I'm sorry, but you can't make nearly impossible content like TA and continue making ever single hero weaker by breaking (or "nerfing") the powers they use. Have the game devs not considered maybe players don't use certain powers because they're useless and not effective? People need powerful attacks in this game and heavy defense because there are a very very tiny amount of support players because the game doesn't reward player support. It only rewards the person who can create a build that deals decent damage, has tank like defense (the only thing that doesn't die after 5 or 6 hits in this game) and has at least one or two ways to self heal.
It's like the game punishes you for for making a concept build, and the dev's solution is to keep concept characters weak but then make everything else weak so everyone can be weak and useless together. If you're going to take your time sniffing out powers to make weaker, why not take the time to buff weak powers instead. I mean, it's really not a big deal in the long run. But all I'm saying is, maybe listen to the player base and not just the players who care only about the utterly useless PVPing RenCen
Trinity is lazy design and fosters toxic communities even tardigrades can't survive.
Again, I'll point to the example of Guild Wars 2 pre-Heart of Thorns.
Nothing says "build diversity" and "teamwork" like "link Berserker gear or be kicked" for a dungeon run.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
_______________________________
The user formerly known as Dr. Sage.
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Main thing is, WoW's built around playing a role. Think of it like a play. You have the part, you play it to the best of your ability. People expect, say, the actor playing Romeo to deliver Romeo's lines.
Or for a comics viewpoint, people expect Wolverine to *SNIKT* things and Batman to plan things and you probably won't see Superman shooting someone with a gun (barring the 90s...).
Guild Wars 2 was supposed to be more of a freeform, "do it your own way, make your own build" sort of thing. Heavily advertised as "don't have to wait for a healer" and "action combat".
But in reality it became worse than WoW, because the play that you were expected to perform only had room for the actors that ran glass-cannon gear and stabbed things in the face.
It's like putting together a Justice League team composed entirely of Deathstroke. Everyone who isn't-that gets ostracized.
As opposed to the WoW method, where there's pretty much always a spot for an Aquaman or a Booster Gold, even though sometimes you'd kill things faster if you had a team consisting entirely of Flashes shooting things with laser guns.
(this is the worst mixed-metaphor thing I think I've ever written, I'll try to clean it up later)
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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The user formerly known as Dr. Sage.
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Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Stat sets on gear in GW2 were named combos. Gear quality (Normal, Rare, Exotic, etc) would be more equivalent to Greens/Blues/Heroics/Justice gear here. Exotics (highest tier available for armor at the time) were buyable on the Auction House for relatively cheap.
So basically you bought or crafted the equivalent of Justice-level gear with the stats you wanted (like having mods pre-slotted here).
There weren't different stats available on different pieces (so no Offense, Defense, Utility slots like here). Everything could run the same type of stats.
"Berserker" was Power (basic damage stat, think of pure Superstat Damage bonus here), Critical Chance, Critical Severity.
The equivalent in CO would be something like...
Filling every mod slot on all your gear with Dex and Str mods and crit strike/offense (even the defense/utility slots), because you could, because there was no DR on offensive stats, End/Rec/Int didn't exist and Con/Pre were worthless.
Specifically Dex/Str because ranged combat was worthless in PvE there and melee greatly outdamaged it.
Defensive stats were devalued because the auto-attacks from enemies were negligible if you burned them down quickly enough and the big hits would one-shot you if you got hit.
Healing stats were devalued because "they didn't want healers". Healing coefficients (the amount they scaled with the stag "Healing Power" on gear) were awful on almost everything (self-heals were some of the few exceptions).
It was like everyone having Justice Gear and everyone that wasn't Dex/Str/x being kicked. Not the quality, the stat selection.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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The user formerly known as Dr. Sage.
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My super cool CC build and how to use it.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
CO has never really cared for trinity and each side shouting NO U at each other aint gonna change that. Games way to old to be really changed too much.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
Im not saying Trinity is a bad thing as I've been enjoying that type of gameplay on many other game but with CO its not really important.
But you can have that gameplay here if you team right so its all good ^_^
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
My super cool CC build and how to use it.