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Basic Change to increase player-base.
xanadooami
Posts: 1 Arc User
This game needs 2 primary things. Comic-Book Outlining disabled by default (The game looks so much better graphically with it off), and some advertising. This is a truly great MMO that many are missing out on.
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Some like the comic book outlining and it was how it was designed based on that.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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The default camera controls are also crap.
Basically whoever set up the defaults in 2009 jerked the game over big time.
Was that Bill Roper?
.
I disagree, comic book outlining looks awesome and gives this game some really good defining visual identity.
Also, feel free to pay for the advertising campaign.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Cartoon Outline is crap.
In fact we need some protest sign auras and one of them should say that.
Cartoon Outline is awesome.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Comic book outline exists because comic books were printed on the cheapest pulp paper available, and the inks bleed, black outlines define the area and trap the color as it is printed last and overprints the bleed of other colors.
We are not printing anything in CO, the reason for comic book outline in CO is some one who doesn't play the game anymore, probably works for another game company, chose that as a default, because they thought it looked good and the game flopped in its first year, perhaps as a result of how ugly it was, (maybe it was something else, like no content.)
The other hero games, with many more players, doesn't have ugly mode by default.
Maybe that's their big secret to success, Cryptic will never know unless they try turning off the ugly mode.
Oh wait, their other more succesful games don't have ugly mode by default, and they have thousands of players compared to CO's hundreds.
There was a study a few years back, by NVIDIA I think, that found that over 85% of game players never adjust the video settings of the games they play. I know I didn't monkey with any preferences for probably a month into playing and when I found I could turn off comic book outline, I was pleased pink.
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And playing by myself since Aug 2009
Godtier: Lifetime Subscriber
I take this quote from a review that I agree with.
"customisation is so linear; everyone is after the optimal dps:survivability ratio with 0 reliance on other players = autonomous gameplay... Players don't need each other anymore... which in my opinion is a bad thing."
The default shouldn't be boring mode. Cartoon Outline looks awesome.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I like the outline and sometimes only disable it to improve the performance. But when I do that, I get the impression there's something missing in the game and they don't look THAT great.
A few games have this kind of feature and it's characteristic of this games, like CO and Borderlands. Those who only care for perfect, photo-realistic graphics will always complain, but then I think they're kinda playing the wrong game.
On the other hand though, it might not be a bad idea to show in the tutorial how to disable it, since there's a lot of comments in CO videos in YT, for example, saying they left the game because of "cel-shading" (even though this is NOT cel-shading).
DoomedLuke at Primus Data Base
And at DeviantArt
I'll bet you won't find any comments on any other game that players left because it lacked comic book outline.
You can't fathom that they won't just log out forever at level 1 and 2 like they do, instead you jump to the conclusion that thousands of players are going to log in for the first time simply because the ugliness has been turned off. Where's your logic?
We've already lost thousands of players at level 1 and 2.
That's why there's a new tutorial, but if the default video is still hideous nasty comic book outline, I'm sure the graphics are going to turn people away, like it has in the past and all the development effort of a new tutorial will be wasted again.
The outline actually diminishes the 3D effect by making everything look like a poorly masked sprite.
This conversation has happened before.
Some 500,000 players have come and gone since then. Outline was here, now make it disappea like all those players have!
Note, the game trailer does not sell this low resolution crayon outline trash, it sells nice clean 3D.
Everyone loved it in open beta, everyone hated the day one patch, everyone hated the ham-fisted nerfs it's taken since. Everyone hates how it's grindy, restrictive, and focused around number creep, a high stat ceiling, and end-game. Everyone hates how it discourages alts, creativity, and experimentation, forcing people into cookie cutter builds. Everyone hates how it's one, long, linear grind to the end, instead of having many zones to choose from along the journey. (Instead of working on this, they could've added, say, a London zone at level 15, or a Moon zone at level 25.) Everyone hates the new focus on restrictions, everyone hates how it's moved more towards being a traditional MMO with sepcialisations. Everyone hates that Cryptic is now so desperate that they have to rely on so many forms of lockboxes and alternate currency.
And it's not like we didn't try to tell them who they should listen to. They went down this road of their own choice. They appealed to the 0.1~ per cent who were noisy enough for Cryptic to be sensitive to them. And more and more the forum became an echo chamber as people just gave up on CO. People outside of the forums will tell you, right now, what CO needs to do in order to be popular again. They all know of CO, they all also just hate what it is now. They've tried it, and it's horrible.
What we need is a backflip to the glory days of the open beta -- a low stat ceiling, almost no restrictions, very little grind with easy to obtain upgrades, an allowance to create bizarre characters and have them workable (because min-maxers only make up for 0.1~ per cent of the game, as we now know for a fact), new zones along the levelling path, retooling content so that it doesn't have forced grouping, ignoring the end-game for now to allow for more zone choice along the journey (since the strength of CO is in alts, not end-game), and all balance focused around open beta where people truly felt powerful (with new content being added as it's retooled to fit that balance).
That's what would get people back. For the tiny echo chamber, you could have a throwaway 'Pro Server' or something. And for the majority, you could do what I've suggested.
We've all tried to tell Cryptic what would get their game going again.
We have tried. From open beta to now, god we've tried.
I see you're still terrible at detecting sarcasm.
Nobody is able to fathom anything about whether or not just how big a deal the default comic outline is and exactly how many players it has caused to leave, and certainly not from a few comments from some random youtube videos.
We don't need to know exactly or roughly how many players left because of comic book outline, all we need to know is comic book outline has been the default, and we've lost over two million players. Maybe there is a connection, maybe not. Got nothing to lose by turning that garbage off.
Nobody will stop to say "Hey this 3D game doesn't look like a crappy sprite based 2D game with comic book outline! I'm disappointed!" and if they do, they can dig through the "Advanced" options and turn the crap back on.
Dear Werewolf Finds Dragon,
Do you honestly think you are the only person who reads both the forums and MassivelyOP? Because this isn't what you're "seeing", it's what you're saying. Maybe next time, you'll at least test our intelligence a little bit, instead of insulting it by repeating the same talking points in the same language and claiming it's somebody else.
Love,
LegendOfVinnyT
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
I'm sorry but the language in this post is so wrong I almost pause to address it. Massively = Bitter CoXer Hate Tank when it comes to their comments. So you're essentially saying CO should ignore it's actual playerbase in favor of people who just want CoX2? Now if we take out the...
-"Facts(Opinions)"
-"Percentages(Made up)"
-Nostalgia(Since we're stronger post On-Alert than Pre-Launch)
-"We(You)"
-"Everyone(You)"
-"No One(You)"
...there's not much left here really. Honestly, if this game was less grind they would just give you Justice upon entering the Powerhouse at LvL 6....and then you could talk to the trainer to Auto-40. Please, in the future, when trying to make a post like this just use proper pronouns and state your opinion. Trying to speak for the masses when you weren't elected to speak for the masses is just a very easy way to be dismissed.
Also, honestly, why are lockboxes such a big deal? Yeah, I don't care for them(because I am too unlucky with RNG to even bother) but I know other people who like and use them. I also have been, so far, able to quite easily keep up with all the things I would actually want from them. Also, I like the Loyalty Stamps because that's when I actually do buy and use keys...because my rewards are garanteed. Now I will freely admit that when you "lose" with a CO Lockbox it is my opinion that your loss is more terrible than if you were to lose with a STO/NW Lockbox but that's minor tweaking on the losing end really. It seems to be a common Anti-CO Talking Point to string up the lockboxes on some kind of pole as the Ultimate Evil. Seriously? Don't like? Don't Use. Not Necessary. Next.
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And on the subject of this whole "Great Comic Outlines Debate", let us pretend for a moment this is even on the radar of being a fraction of an issue...this is where the line in the sand is drawn? Not Playable Content? Not Bug Repairs? Not Balance? This...this is the Big Bad Thing? If this one thing were switched to not be the default we would be up to our necks in rejoicing newbies who wouldn't hit 40 and run out of things to do or lose interest? They would be entirely content to continue playing because that horrible outline isn't default and going into the game's options was just a step too far and an overall ludicrous demand? I understand the concept of aiming low but this, to me, seems like one of those issues so low that if this were a cartoon you would have popped out of the other side of the planet and gravity would reverse. This makes the 4th color preview option in the tailor/creator not working look like a planet destroying catastrophe by comparison. Trivializing this issue would be an upgrade IMO.
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This is such a stretch, and I don't even know where it's trying to stretch to be honest, that it wouldn't make the US News....
...although I would admit I am jealous of Silicon's pic because I think it's funnier than my reply...curse you, Sillicon.
Join Date: Aug 2009 | Title: Devslayer
Yes. When I came to this game I thought it looked horrible, I downloaded City of Heroes because their advertising looked 1000% more super cool 3D than the flat cartoon characters Champions Online uses.
But wow CoH looked absolutely terrible and it crashed the first time I met a new person, so I came back to Champions and complained about the crappy outline to someone who told me that I could turn it off. I've never turned it back on except to test my memory of how bad it looks.
I didn't get around to bug repairs. I didn't know anything about balance. The only content I saw was the tutorial and I was already pretty disappointed, frustrated really. I couldn't chat in zone so I assumed I couldn't chat at all. The tasks in the tutorial weren't interesting hero stuff, I was collecting garbage, shooting stationary targets, making deliveries, b-o-r-i-n-g, the default controls were stiff, the damage spam was hideous, the sirens in the tutorial were irritating, the music is extremely repetitive and has nothing to do with the action taking place, and as mentioned before the comic book outline made my brand new computer look like it was running a Playstation from 1996.
Yes, I'm one of those people who logged out in the tutorial.
Since you incessantly love to brag about how accurate you think your methods of population numbers analysis are, I'd say you need to know exactly how many before you assert that the comic outline is a probable and significant enough cause of players leaving.
1. The two pics are subject to opinion but the CoX one does look kinda shopped...which makes me think of the outrage that came down upon Watch Dogs and Aliens: Colonial Marines. The CO one is just a cartoon though so it's not like it's exactly more honest to the game itself. Also, where on Earth did you even see CO Advertising since this has been a bit of a hot button debate topic for years now?
2. The Comic Outlines were 6th on your list. Do you think if the control layout/sound/missions/chat(overall MMO-ness of a MMO really)/UI spam were better that you may not have even noticed some default graphical choice? Would a better initial gaming experience/introduction have just swept you up for "The ride" and excited you more?
3. Someone did stop to tell you how to get rid of it. This, to me, is an example of why vets must realize that newbies are important and valuable to the future of MMOs....and that we should all be so helpful as this person who helped you.
Join Date: Aug 2009 | Title: Devslayer
No all I need to do is look at how many level 1 and 2 players in New Champions Super Groups leave the game permanently to determined that it must be something they experience as soon as they log in and try the game that drives them away. They download 8 gigs of data, they spend time making a character, they enter the tutorial and leave forever. What makes them quit? The cut scene? MacAvoy? Socrates? Damage spam? Those damned siren loops?
Well what made me want to pull my garbage can over and vomit in it was the graphics quality issues caused by comic book outline.
Here's a good old post from teh Champions Online forums about it.
Well done, but you're wasting your breath. Capt. Pseudo-Science hasn't listened in two years, he's unlikely to start now. :biggrin:
So, I guess that means there's no issue really.*
*If this post looks silly to you...then you get it. Congratulations. :biggrin:
P.S. The post! It's coming from inside the thread! Get out now!
Sorry, couldn't resist the reference.
Join Date: Aug 2009 | Title: Devslayer
For myself, I find the comic outline generally just makes the whole image look like someone was trying for a cel-shaded look, and missed. I don't know if turning the outlines off would seriously affect the number of new players staying in any particular fashion.
The gripping hand is, when analyzing numbers of "New Champions" who've dropped, one must find some way to control for the banned spambots we've been afflicted with recently...
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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Those numbers are from two years ago, long before we had any bots, which showed up this year with the silver player Global increase. Of course there are plenty of people with multiple accounts, but characters at level 1 don't get you any kind of benefit unless all of them are just logging in to check the numbers in New Champions SGs. I don't know what benefit that would be though, unless there's a lot of people really concerned about the games population numbers, like more of them than players?
I have one New Champion left and I think if I delete them and join the tutorial they will not be in the New Champions because I sent the other New Champion to a penthouse hideout and the Millennium City map or 'left the tutorial' must trigger "Not a new champion" flag, because deleting that character left their new incarnation supergroupless in the tutorial.
How many of that last group hinge their decisions on the comicbook outlining...we can never truly know.
If you delete a character your character vanishes from the super group. If they made a new character immediately after entering the tutorial and testing their energy builder, then they'd likely still be in the same New Champions SG (unless that SG hit 498 players, then they get put in another), and then we can look at the other numbers of drop outs before level 6, or 12, or whatever level that leaves only 1% of New Champions reaching level 40.
That's like leaving the refrigerator door closed and saying you'll never know if the light turns on.
If we open the door, we can start looking at what changes that creates.
Leaving the door closed leaves us ignorant, in the dark, and hungry.
The free ones they can retrain to change. I dont know, just a basic idea.
You can do this with all of the tens of thousand of games on Steam now. Pay for it, try it for two days,dislike it? get your money back.
All the AT's should be free.
This. If the decision is that it *must* be the default, then the tutorial should instruct the player how to disable it. Otherwise, you are literally risking lost revenue over a single checkbox hidden in a video options menu.
If you turn it off by default, you might as well remove it. The majority of people would never find it after that. Think about all the questions you get in zone from new players who can't find something that's practically right in front of their nose. My question is, what's the harm in leaving it on? I don't know if leaving outlines on would seriously affect the number of new players staying in any particular fashion. If it wouldn't make any difference, why change it? Just cause someone typed it? Remove Grond from the Desert. Change for the sake of change is always a change for the worst.
Also, I don't think anybody in the history of time thought half resolution gave a game a better look. People with performance issues actually are going to look at graphics settings to see what they can turn down, so there was no danger of people not finding that. However, nobody ever went into a game and thought "Hmmm, I'm having 'low character outline' issues, better check the graphic options to see if I can turn that up..." - on the other hand, someone might think "I wonder if I can turn this off...". Simply put, having outlines default to on makes the most sense.
At this point we would just be insulting players intelligence. We might as well have Jack Fool walk up to the player and say "Hey kid, did you know games have graphic options? Also that thing under your hands is called a keyboard! Woo hoo!" and then one shot them.
The ugly outline garbage is not what they sell in their advertisements so the game should not have it on by default. The default should be the sweet clean 3D as sold in the videos and screenshots.
This is a huge design failure.
Why does the tent get an outline, its not important, why do the cops get an outline? they are inactive NPCs
Why is there thick dark black inside of a tree when there's no shadows anywhere on the map.
Why are there jaggy black lines on my screen when I have every setting maxed out?
Why is the head and chest of characters and the roof of a car in one continuous outline but the character's bottom halves are not outlined?
Any middle school student could tell you that light usually comes from above and adds a highlight to objects at the top , it does not cast a massive black tar band across everything it touches.
There are little black dots on the sidewalk where the 3D modeler did not match up the mesh.
They want $50 for a free form slot and they can't even get their tutorial map right in six years, and the comic book outline default points that out to every player as soon as they walk up to their first NPC.
Dirty default comic outline mode make it look like a five year old helped the devs touch up the game with his black crayon. It's like building a nice new subdivision and adding graffiti to every person, rock, tree, landscape flaw and object.
First impressions are important.
It will make a difference. Do people buy bruised fruit with black marks all over it? No.
You already lost me, because I think it looks great. I'm not the only one either.
Click here to check out my costumes/milleniumguardian (MG) in-game/We need more tights, stances and moods
And if someone will really quit the game after one or two minutes of playing it over something that takes so little effort to simply switch off, then what makes you think they will play the game for any extended amount of time for the rest it has to offer? If someone quits over something like this, the moment they find something else just as trivial that they don't like will cause them to quit as well.
SJWs are ruining everything.