I'm just saying, don't be arrogant about it and people will take you more seriously.
I wasn't being arrogant, I was being factual about it.
I don't think you understand. If i think it's fine and I'm not lying to myself, then you're 100% wrong
Nobody complains because it makes some passing sense in its location.
So plopping down a slice of Italy is okay but not a slice of wherever else, because...?
That just creates a bigger uncanny valley problem.
Underground parking and connection to Powerhouse that we already know is there is uncanny valley? I think you might not know what that term really means. I don't see how underground parking, which is used in Millennium City already, creates any sort of a problem.
(Also, just looked at re map and yeah, the school wouldn't fit on the east side, I thought there was an equal area of space there.)
I don't think you understand. If i think it's fine and I'm not lying to myself, then you're 100% wrong
You can be lying to yourself without realizing it, people do it everyday.
So plopping down a slice of Italy is okay but not a slice of wherever else, because...?
Because Little Italy doesn't look out of place compared to the three glaringly out of place buildings in the middle of the Ren Center park. But this is also why I say change how the city works so little Italy isn't squashed in one city block.
Underground parking and connection to Powerhouse that we already know is there is uncanny valley? I think you might not know what that term really means. I don't see how underground parking, which is used in Millennium City already, creates any sort of a problem.
(Also, just looked at re map and yeah, the school wouldn't fit on the east side, I thought there was an equal area of space there.)
There is no underground parking near the Ren center. The Underground Parking is in City Center and Westside, and only a few places at that. Using the power house as a means to train students in simulated missions, which is what the power house was suppose to be about, that's plausible. To imagine that the school has some secret underground subway system (because that's what you would need) to get to the power house is getting a bit far fetched there, especially considering theg oal of said expansion for said update would be to make it visible to everyone. Making it underground or even less than a small building would make it less than visible, especially if you just plop it down in a few buildings that already exist.
Ravenswood Academy is a facility that caters to superhumans - perhaps undercover, but nonetheless. This is a world where teleport technology is relatively cheap and easy, to the point that there are teleport pads at the bottom of one building that are used to access the roof, as well as going from Defender to Kodiak (and, of course, to and from Gateway). What do they need with parking?
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
Ravenswood Academy is a facility that caters to superhumans - perhaps undercover, but nonetheless. This is a world where teleport technology is relatively cheap and easy, to the point that there are teleport pads at the bottom of one building that are used to access the roof, as well as going from Defender to Kodiak (and, of course, to and from Gateway). What do they need with parking?
The lore is still inconsistent on that, actually, since according to Resistance, teleportation technology was just invented, meanwhile we had teleporters since as early as game launch, so I don't call that reliable.
You can be lying to yourself without realizing it, people do it everyday.
Again, you're confusing your opinion, on something you couldn't possibly ever know, as fact. If I were to tell you that you secretly think this game is perfect, and that's a fact, that doesn't come off as arrogant to you?
Because Little Italy doesn't look out of place compared to the three glaringly out of place buildings in the middle of the Ren Center park. But this is also why I say change how the city works so little Italy isn't squashed in one city block.
No, it's completely arbitrary to decide it looks out of place if its purpose is to look different than it's surroundings. Note that the designer here coukd have used any Millennium City building to "fit in". They purposely chose something that stands out.
There is no underground parking near the Ren center. The Underground Parking is in City Center and Westside, and only a few places at that. Using the power house as a means to train students in simulated missions, which is what the power house was suppose to be about, that's plausible. To imagine that the school has some secret underground subway system (because that's what you would need) to get to the power house is getting a bit far fetched there, especially considering theg oal of said expansion for said update would be to make it visible to everyone. Making it underground or even less than a small building would make it less than visible, especially if you just plop it down in a few buildings that already exist.
Underground parking is a real thing that can be used all over the world. That is the silliest thing to complain about looking slightly unnatural. As far as the connection to the Powerhouse, it's already there. Having a second entryway to the gym via teleporter (if teleporters are supposed to be secret, putting it behind doors that only open for faculty, students, and the superheroes of the city is completely not far fetched) is no different than having a door that leads directly to a gym connected to a school. Underground or above, it doesn't matter. It's just there for flavor to make it feel like more of a school.
Remember, the school already teleports you to the Powerhouse in the tutorial. The precedent is there for having teleportation technology.
Again, you're confusing your opinion, on something you couldn't possibly ever know, as fact. If I were to tell you that you secretly think this game is perfect, and that's a fact, that doesn't come off as arrogant to you?
Except there is a supreme difference between what is obviously not working and it's a pretty vocal thing being spoken about now, and if this game was indeed perfect which would actually be reflected in subscriptions/an actual player base that would be praising content on a daily basis.
No, it's completely arbitrary to decide it looks out of place if its purpose is to look different than it's surroundings. Note that the designer here coukd have used any Millennium City building to "fit in". They purposely chose something that stands out.
You can make something stand out without making it look ridiculous in the process.
Underground parking is a real thing that can be used all over the world. That is the silliest thing to complain about looking slightly unnatural. As far as the connection to the Powerhouse, it's already there. Having a second entryway to the gym via teleporter (if teleporters are supposed to be secret, putting it behind doors that only open for faculty, students, and the superheroes of the city is completely not far fetched) is no different than having a door that leads directly to a gym connected to a school. Underground or above, it doesn't matter. It's just there for flavor to make it feel like more of a school.
Remember, the school already teleports you to the Powerhouse in the tutorial. The precedent is there for having teleportation technology.
And yet that still ignores the overlying problem, one that is actually being highlighted in a couple of your posts and even in the thread about Ravenswood; It just doesn't fit. This is well beyond trying to fit a square peg into a round hole here, as we are constantly being told the world engine is at its limit with MC, then the only solution is the one I actually present in the OP because so much is missing from MC it's not even funny. Let's not even try to pretend that over 30 years of Champions Lore has yet to even be tapped in Champions Online.
Except there is a supreme difference between what is obviously not working and it's a pretty vocal thing being spoken about now, and if this game was indeed perfect which would actually be reflected in subscriptions/an actual player base that would be praising content on a daily basis.
Well now you're just lying to yourself and you don't even know it.
See?
You can make something stand out without making it look ridiculous in the process.
And yet that still ignores the overlying problem, one that is actually being highlighted in a couple of your posts and even in the thread about Ravenswood; It just doesn't fit. This is well beyond trying to fit a square peg into a round hole here, as we are constantly being told the world engine is at its limit with MC, then the only solution is the one I actually present in the OP because so much is missing from MC it's not even funny. Let's not even try to pretend that over 30 years of Champions Lore has yet to even be tapped in Champions Online.
If you want to rely on your currently-not-realistic solution instead of some slight remodeling, be my guest. They're not going to completely remodel Millennium City and create two new zones just to make the school more aesthetically pleasing. With some tweaks, the school would fit right in.
Honestly, I think people are just suffering from a bit of shock, having something new plopped in, especially mixing that in with how rushed and basic the thing looks. I'm betting new players wouldn't even give it a second thought.
Yes, Mill City is smaller than real-world Detroit, and smaller than the map in the sourcebooks.
And yes, I'm fine with that, and no, I'm not lying to myself. Why, are you claiming to have suddenly developed psychic powers to rival Menton himself?
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
Well now you're just lying to yourself and you don't even know it.
See?
Your constant attempts are getting humorous Biff. But keep going with that.
If you want to rely on your currently-not-realistic solution instead of some slight remodeling, be my guest. They're not going to completely remodel Millennium City and create two new zones just to make the school more aesthetically pleasing. With some tweaks, the school would fit right in.
Honestly, I think people are just suffering from a bit of shock, having something new plopped in, especially mixing that in with how rushed and basic the thing looks. I'm betting new players wouldn't even give it a second thought.
I am not shocked. I am not even mildly amused at the moment. I am insulted because it's the same thing that happens every time they say they are committed to Champions, they redo the tutorial then touch some other new player experience, then when things start looking like they might actually be proving they are committed, they completely stop, because they have to save their license products, because Champions is expendable. They do this every time.
If they want get the game acceptable to people outside that are truly coming in from the superhero hype in the media then leaving things as is is definitely not the answer. This game needs a lot more than a simple tutorial swap, again, because there was nothing really wrong with the last one. The end result, they added a new start, but kept the old intro, and removed two more quests from the old tutorial.
Yes, Mill City is smaller than real-world Detroit, and smaller than the map in the sourcebooks.
And yes, I'm fine with that, and no, I'm not lying to myself. Why, are you claiming to have suddenly developed psychic powers to rival Menton himself?
Because if you are satisfied with the current product that's been stagnating for over 5 years now then there is nothing else to be told other than you are trying to convince yourself it's good enough, because it's not. The excuse of its niche is just baffling to me, and puzzles me how come people go out of their way to not want Champions to be the best it can be. Because yes, that's exactly what you are saying then. And even more baffling that people are not insulted with this constant tutorial redo parade we go through that follows the exact same cycle.
Your constant attempts are getting humorous Biff. But keep going with that.
Now you're getting it. Saying that kind of thing is completely ridiculous!
I am not shocked. I am not even mildly amused at the moment.
That's not the kind of shock I meant. I mean that something has changed without any sort of transition. To someone who's seen this place a thousand times, it's a visual shock to see something like that spring up. To someone that's never seen it? They probably won't give it a second glance.
I am insulted because it's the same thing that happens every time they say they are committed to Champions, they redo the tutorial then touch some other new player experience, then when things start looking like they might actually be proving they are committed, they completely stop, because they have to save their license products, because Champions is expendable. They do this every time.
Yep.
If they want get the game acceptable to people outside that are truly coming in from the superhero hype in the media then leaving things as is is definitely not the answer. This game needs a lot more than a simple tutorial swap, again, because there was nothing really wrong with the last one. The end result, they added a new start, but kept the old intro, and removed two more quests from the old tutorial.
This is not a positive change.
Removing a couple quests from the tutorial is hardly negative. I think the addition of the voiceovers completely negates what tiny little negative effects getting rid of a silly escort quest and a dumb cat brings with it.
You need to realize that you're not the target audience for this update; it's for new players. You have some nice ideas in this thread, and your fear of "they're just gonna screw with the tutorial and then leave it alone" is grounded in reality, but the game has a team working on it again, and they're in a place where they can borrow assets from the other games. I'm fairly confident this isn't the last bit of an update we'll see for a long time.
Kindly read my words. I place nothing between lines. I am fine with the size of the Millennium City map. It may come as a shock to you, but this is not the only map in the game, nor does being content with map size necessarily imply being "fine" with every-bloody-thing else.
I do not appreciate being told what I think. I appreciate even less being told what I have said. And the simple fact that there are now two people who have stated that a) they're fine with the map size, and b) they're not lying, even to themselves, disproves your initial statement in this particular branch of the discussion. You're not content with the size of the map. You are not the entire playerbase.
(Nor am I, but I'm not the one making absolutist statements about what "everyone" thinks.)
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
Removing a couple quests from the tutorial is hardly negative. I think the addition of the voiceovers completely negates what tiny little negative effects getting rid of a silly escort quest and a dumb cat brings with it.
You need to realize that you're not the target audience for this update; it's for new players. You have some nice ideas in this thread, and your fear of "they're just gonna screw with the tutorial and then leave it alone" is grounded in reality, but the game has a team working on it again, and they're in a place where they can borrow assets from the other games. I'm fairly confident this isn't the last bit of an update we'll see for a long time.
The irony of this statement when I use to say remove certain elements from the game that were superfluous and you would tell me removing content was bad philosophy. And getting rid of the cat quest actually taught people that some quests come in items in their pack, and that if they are still keeping escorts in Champions, as it stands now, then removing an escort quest is bad, not to mention, it's a super heroic thing. The saving a cat for the old lady and rescuing a citizen and reuniting them with friends is like core of super hero dogma.
It's like the block quest, removing it didn't streamline anything in fact it just made people unaware that they had a block option.
The irony of this statement when I use to say remove certain elements from the game that were superfluous and you would tell me removing content was bad philosophy. And getting rid of the cat quest actually taught people that some quests come in items in their pack, and that if they are still keeping escorts in Champions, as it stands now, then removing an escort quest is bad, not to mention, it's a super heroic thing. The saving a cat for the old lady and rescuing a citizen and reuniting them with friends is like core of super hero dogma.
It's like the block quest, removing it didn't streamline anything in fact it just made people unaware that they had a block option.
I suppose the cat mission did provide something useful. Could have been removed because most new people never found the cat in the first place? I think putting the cat in a more obvious area is a better solution instead of removing it, then.
I don't know the context of when I said removing content was bad. Was I talking about small, insignificant missions? The escort mission was a pain because it has you backtracking, slowly. I'd like the mission better if you had to take her to the cop guy in the next checkpoint, and if she keeps up with you, otherwise it's just a nuisance.
I don't think you really need an escort in the tutorial. Escort missions are pretty self-explanatory.
Ok, getting kinda thick in here....so I'll be brief.
1. Could we all please stop abusing the poor word "Facts" when "Opinions we feel we are not alone in having" is more accurate?
2. As much as I will freely admit that some of the design suggesting in this recent addition are appealing(the pics really sell it) it is my opinion that such things would be lovely....either with more actual playable content or after the addition of actual playable content. When lost in the desert it is nice to have a pretty canteen....but there should be some water in it as well.
3. I like easter eggs. Apparently people who play video games also like easter eggs based on all these Youtube videos I can find on the subject. I honestly do not care of 3/4 of the people don't find the easter egg....but I would wager the 1 who does likes it, tells people about it, and probably thinks it's cool. Now if it demonstrates an extra lil nugget of information the player can learn to benefit them in the future of their gaming experience here....BONUS. If it doesn't...well IMO these lil things are what makes it a tutorial in CO and not a generic treadmill simulation. Also, of course, removing missions from CO historically appears to be a bad thing. You just don't know if the replacement will be better....or happen at all.
We now return you to your previously scheduled squabble...already in progress. :cool:
P.S. I just noticed this and wanted to touch on it briefly. There's a pretty good chance that pretty much every single person in this thread, myself included, aren't necessarily the ideal people to shape the tutorial if we're approaching it from what "we" see because we're vets. I think it's easy. You think it's easy, Tim over there in the corner thinks it's easy. Go run some alerts and realize that what you find amazingly easy....would likely steamroll the people in your alert if you were not there half of the time. So, when it comes to the subject of the tutorial, I'm not against anything that serves as a rudundant to a vet but might teach a newbie and cause them less grief in their playing experience. Heck, put in THREE Block Stations...just...to...be....sure. :biggrin:
In STO, you can provide First Aid, which since it's Trek involves squatting next to the downed person and waving a tricorder around; the victim is then resurrected with a moment's paralysis (sometimes enough for bad guys to drop them again - it's happened to me a few times) and about 1/4 their HP.
I don't know that you can generalize that for a supers game, though. STO can have that because a tricorder is a small, common piece of equipment that almost every member of Starfleet, the Klingon Defense Force, and the Grand Fleet of the Romulan Republic is issued as a matter of course. Can't think of anything comparable in comics.
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
My thoughts on this subject are simple. Jade Dynasty has a smaller population than Champions Online yet it keeps getting area updates and expansions.
I think Millennium City should get a more major overhaul than some random school being dumped in the park.
Some people will say but Jade Dynasty is a PWI game and Cryptic deals with Champs. Well thats nonsense as Champions Online for most of its life now has been a PWI game and Cryptic are nothing more than a PWI dev team these days.
The buck stops with Perfect World and they should take their finger out their butt and capitalize on the growing popularity of Super Heroes. They have really what is the greatest Super Hero video MMO ever made but are doing nothing with it. Shameful.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
PWI =/= PWE, at least until/unless PW goes private.
Popularity of superhero movies =/= popularity of superheroes. Didn't you say you're involved in the comic-shop industry? Because that's the group that finds this the most painfully ironic, in my experience - watching people flock to see the antics of the Avengers and X-Men in the movies, but not so much with the buying and the reading of the comics.
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
PWI =/= PWE, at least until/unless PW goes private.
Popularity of superhero movies =/= popularity of superheroes. Didn't you say you're involved in the comic-shop industry? Because that's the group that finds this the most painfully ironic, in my experience - watching people flock to see the antics of the Avengers and X-Men in the movies, but not so much with the buying and the reading of the comics.
PWE = subsidiary of PWI which still means PWI owns them.
As far as Nepht owning a comic shop, she owns one in the UK. As far as the comic book boom versus a video game, well there is a supreme difference. Since a comic book would not appeal to laziness of America lately, and store owners tend to overbuy anyways.
PWI =/= PWE, at least until/unless PW goes private.
Thats like saying Nintendo of America isnt Nintendo. Your trying to argue for the sake of argument. Stop it. PWI was set up and is fully owned by PW.
Also me running a small book/comic/game shop has no relevance to this subject. I sell more Harry Potter books than I do Iron Man comics BUT if you want to be picky the sales of Super Hero related games have sky rocketed.
Perfect World is fully to blame for the lack of any real expansion in Champions Online over the last two years.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
Yea, it's kind of like how in the 80s companies would sell their games under different labels to bypass certain quality assurance regulations like with Nintendo. Konami had their Ultra label, Capcom had their own, and of course Activision had LJN. Just because the names are different for the different regions does not mean that they still aren't owned by the parent company and thus beholden to what the parent company says.
I seriously doubt Reggie can go off and say they are going to do their own thing at Nintendo of America without Nintendo of Japan giving him the go ahead.
Honestly I'm expecting some good things for Champs. Yes this might be Yet Another Tutorial Overhaul, but the fact that it got more VoiceOver than all of Cryptic North's updates put together (just an estimate, I don't need to hear a full list of voiceovers to be told I'm wrong) was kind of unprecedented, which to me says they have better access to resources that Cryptic North did. Best thing to do is wait and see how this plays out. This is the first move from a new team. Give me some time and see how it goes.
Honestly I'm expecting some good things for Champs. Yes this might be Yet Another Tutorial Overhaul, but the fact that it got more VoiceOver than all of Cryptic North's updates put together (just an estimate, I don't need to hear a full list of voiceovers to be told I'm wrong) was kind of unprecedented, which to me says they have better access to resources that Cryptic North did. Best thing to do is wait and see how this plays out. This is the first move from a new team. Give me some time and see how it goes.
Agreed. This overhaul could also mean the Devs expect a new influx of players. (Maybe)
Maybe this is the start of something bigger...if their costume designs don't send more packing that is.
Honestly I'm expecting some good things for Champs. Yes this might be Yet Another Tutorial Overhaul™, but the fact that it got more VoiceOver than all of Cryptic North's updates put together (just an estimate, I don't need to hear a full list of voiceovers to be told I'm wrong) was kind of unprecedented, which to me says they have better access to resources that Cryptic North did. Best thing to do is wait and see how this plays out. This is the first move from a new team. Give me some time and see how it goes.
A lot more work is still needed. UI work, powers fixed and overhauled, things of that nature, and whether people like it or not roles better defined. I know one fix that would make a lot of people who love playing support very happy; change how support powers work from directed (ie watching healthbars game play) to ae and field effects that they activate. AKA like how support works in Neverwinter or how it use to work in CoH. It's not fun when the only thing you do is watch healthbars as a support toon.
Removing toggles (toggles have been the biggest issue and cause of more headaches and imbalances since their re-inception) and making combat more dynamic instead of static would help to, but that would require too much of an overhaul at the moment.
Another thing I know would at least guarantee more interest in Champions from the get go; get rid of the ATs as a have to play this way for people wanting to toe the waters. Leave ATs as quick builds for people who don't want to hassle too much, but allow everyone to be freeform with restrictions, and this is how I would do it;
Pick one power set per framework to be the keystone, then all the other power sets would have to be bought either per character or could be paid for for the entire account. Subs get all this for free. So that means free players would have 6 initial power sets one from each tree, then the rest would be paid for. New power sets would be paid for, except agaiin for subs and lifers.
And if people bought the freeform then give them a token to unlock one power set and 3 free character slots. Honestly, that would have guaranteed more interest in Champions alone because the biggest gripe that you always here is that the key feature of Champions, the ability to make the character you want, isn't able to be used by free accounts, and is locked heavily behind a pay wall, unlike in STO or Neverwinter.
I don't disagree (well the freeform thing I'm not so sure of) but it's their opening move. It'll be more telling what their intentions (and skill levels) are once we see a few more updates.
I don't disagree (well the freeform thing I'm not so sure of) but it's their opening move. It'll be more telling what their intentions (and skill levels) are once we see a few more updates.
You catch more flies with honey than vinegar. Locking the biggest feature of Champions (freeform building) behind a steep $50 dollar pay wall is vinegar to people. They would have made loads more money, loads more, giving a limited freeform and putting power sets behind smaller pay walls (if the price is reasonable like around $10 to $15 bucks per power set per character).
And yes, this is where we get to see their skill, but we need to start suggesting now. We've been here a while, we've listened to the complaints, and I've read them on various web sites and forums. Tracking what we, the current player base does, when most of us have been here since before Champions launch, doesn't tell them what they need to do to fix Champions, because many of us are just stuck in a routine, not actually presenting the big picture of what people want.
The list of the big complaints I know about from the various web sites, these are what I consider the top egregious complaints, in no particular order;
1. Freeform locked behind a pay wall
2. No team or group content and the game feels like it punishes teaming and grouping
3. No end game content to play in
4. The game is too easy and doesn't present a challenge
5. No worthy rewards for your effort and time
6. Nothing to interest big guilds to play
7. It doesn't feel like the Champions PnP
8. The Social experience and RP hot spots are lacking
9. The world feels too damn small
10. No new major zones or content and/or level cap increase
These are complaints I've read over the years from various websites as to reasons why people either don't care or don't bother with Champions now.
I remember when I first tried playing CO. It was a free-weekend thing, back before F2P; I tried to make a character, but got so lost in the whole freeform thing that I created a terrible mess instead.
When F2P came along, I had enough fun memories of playing Champs in college that I gave it another try; the ATs held my hand through the creation process well enough that later, when I subscribed, I still used some. Heck, when I wanted to check out psi powers in game not that long ago, I used a Mind so I could get a feel for how it all worked together.
Giving every new player Freeform capability may just result in confusion and quitting again. No one (except that breed that actually enjoys games like EvE) wants to start off with a learning curve so steep you could use it to teach mountaineering. At most, one might lower the cost of a Freeform slot - although there's the question of whether it devalues a subscription too far (I don't sub to STO because there's just not that much more in exchange for my money).
Thing is, Shewolf, you've been playing for so long you may not remember being confused at the beginning, or at least if you do you remember being confused along with everyone else. Nobody likes feeling like the only one who can't figure something out. We're trying to attract newbies here, not old hands.
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
I remember when I first tried playing CO. It was a free-weekend thing, back before F2P; I tried to make a character, but got so lost in the whole freeform thing that I created a terrible mess instead.
When F2P came along, I had enough fun memories of playing Champs in college that I gave it another try; the ATs held my hand through the creation process well enough that later, when I subscribed, I still used some. Heck, when I wanted to check out psi powers in game not that long ago, I used a Mind so I could get a feel for how it all worked together.
Giving every new player Freeform capability may just result in confusion and quitting again. No one (except that breed that actually enjoys games like EvE) wants to start off with a learning curve so steep you could use it to teach mountaineering. At most, one might lower the cost of a Freeform slot - although there's the question of whether it devalues a subscription too far (I don't sub to STO because there's just not that much more in exchange for my money).
Thing is, Shewolf, you've been playing for so long you may not remember being confused at the beginning, or at least if you do you remember being confused along with everyone else. Nobody likes feeling like the only one who can't figure something out. We're trying to attract newbies here, not old hands.
I might have been playing that long, but since you ignored what I wrote I will repeat it; leave ATs as an option for those that don't want to have to deal with it. Leaving freeform behind a vinegar laced steep paywall is not inspiring people to come play. I can tell you that now. In fact it's the number 1 complaint you will find when it concerns people coming to try Champions, because people are pissed off they can't play with their powers and have to settle for the crappy ATs.
You catch more flies with honey than vinegar. Locking the biggest feature of Champions (freeform building) behind a steep $50 dollar pay wall is vinegar to people. They would have made loads more money, loads more, giving a limited freeform and putting power sets behind smaller pay walls (if the price is reasonable like around $10 to $15 bucks per power set per character).
To elaborate, I think something could be done to allow a free taste of freeform, but what you wrote didn't jump out at me as being the best course of action.
And yes, this is where we get to see their skill, but we need to start suggesting now. We've been here a while, we've listened to the complaints, and I've read them on various web sites and forums. Tracking what we, the current player base does, when most of us have been here since before Champions launch, doesn't tell them what they need to do to fix Champions, because many of us are just stuck in a routine, not actually presenting the big picture of what people want.
The list of the big complaints I know about from the various web sites, these are what I consider the top egregious complaints, in no particular order;
1. Freeform locked behind a pay wall
2. No team or group content and the game feels like it punishes teaming and grouping
3. No end game content to play in
4. The game is too easy and doesn't present a challenge
5. No worthy rewards for your effort and time
6. Nothing to interest big guilds to play
7. It doesn't feel like the Champions PnP
8. The Social experience and RP hot spots are lacking
9. The world feels too damn small
10. No new major zones or content and/or level cap increase
These are complaints I've read over the years from various websites as to reasons why people either don't care or don't bother with Champions now.
I don't get the complaints about teaming. I don't team a whole lot, but I have, and never noticed it being problematic, let alone felt punished for doing so.
The game will always be too easy, especially when you have people who like to make super-powered builds. You can't expect content to be built around them or the majority of the players will complain it's too hard. Cryptic can no longer control what power levels people should be at in order to gauge how difficult content should be, and that's why we end up with things like Gravitar, who can randomly one-shot the majority if the game's characters.
I might have been playing that long, but since you ignored what I wrote I will repeat it; leave ATs as an option for those that don't want to have to deal with it. Leaving freeform behind a vinegar laced steep paywall is not inspiring people to come play. I can tell you that now. In fact it's the number 1 complaint you will find when it concerns people coming to try Champions, because people are pissed off they can't play with their powers and have to settle for the crappy ATs.
Back before Archetypes were a thing, I suggested something of a "soft" archetype to get people familiar with character building, since there were a lot of people confused as what to do (remember back when the most common complaint was "the game is too hard, I die all the time!" and the most common fix for that was "get a passive!"). It would be just like choosing an archetype, but at each level that you gain a power point or advantage and whatnot, the game would instruct you on what to pick, and why, but allow the player to deviate from the main plan and choose whatever powers they wanted. That way you can let the game hold your hand for as long as you need to, and once you get how things work, you can customize however you want.
Kinda tangential, but I still think it would be a good alternative to the Archetypes we have now.
I don't get the complaints about teaming. I don't team a whole lot, but I have, and never noticed it being problematic, let alone felt punished for doing so.
The game will always be too easy, especially when you have people who like to make super-powered builds. You can't expect content to be built around them or the majority of the players will complain it's too hard. Cryptic can no longer control what power levels people should be at in order to gauge how difficult content should be, and that's why we end up with things like Gravitar, who can randomly one-shot the majority if the game's characters.
Believe it or not people love to team in these games. That was one of the bigger attractions especially in sandbox games, having teams to achieve like minded goals. And stuff is too easy because the mobs are scaled poorly. It isn't because of super powered builds, that is only one problem. It's because the only time mobs presented a challenge was during CO's launch, and since then have been nerfed considerably. So much so that the reward for facing the bosses is pathetically bad comparably. Hell it's actually a punishment to team in this game, unlike other games.
Contrary to popular opinion on these forums, people love teaming in these games and many people actually enjoy feeling like they are contributing to a team. People have gone off the deep end and assumed casual meant solo-ist when that wasn't the case at all. It's the same group of people that think casual means bad player to.
And Cryptic can easily gain control back. The biggest issue with power creep in champs is the toggles. Remove those and powers stop going out of whack for starters, but the other issue is bosses that aren't properly scaled or gated to players. When the super villains aren't super anymore what kind of threat do they present? Mega Destroid use to be threatening even to the most munchkin build but was so incredibly nerfed that unless you purposely gimp yourself terribly, you couldn't be killed even if you didn't block the super attack.
It's just a tragedy of what's happened and it hasn't been in a good direction. Why do you think WoW just lost 3 million subscribers? Because the game is too easy and people are tired of the loneliness they feel that the garrison crap forced on them. Many people, even casuals, play these games to be apart of a larger community to feel like they belong. People that wanted to be the sole hero could do so with single player titles much easier than with an MMO.
There is a reason why people kept hoping Warlords of Draenor was suppose to be a rennaissance that returned WoW back to its Burning Crusade roots and it certainly wasn't for the single player experience. MMOs have that in spades, and it is a chief reason why said games are constantly failing.
That's what the game had at launch, isn't it? I played a little near the end of beta, and I remember getting something like this.
If you mean my map ideas, no it didn't. I do know cryptic had many more zones planned for champions, not the 5 we started with and the 6th added on. But, because of Atari well, you can see what happened, and by the time PWE came around to buy Cryptic, Cryptic had an STO license and that license was more important than Champions. It's a sad but true outcome, and even though STo was in a similar boat, everything was poured into saving STO, and Champions has since languished. And with Neverwinter in the mix it got worse. So, STO and Neverwinter both have seen new zones, content and updates that include level cap raises, and STO was brought back from the brink, while Champions, the owned IP, was left to basically rot and look on the other two games wishing, hoping for one of the scraps to fall off the fat tables of the other two products and hoping to get some updates and love that is sorely needed. Basic QOL stuff like UI and things of that nature.
Hell, STO just got a complete map overhaul that got rid of a lot of the sector map crap and converged the sectors down to 3 zones now. Not only does it make it feel more like deep space, but it's starting to look more like Star Trek.
In STO, you can provide First Aid, which since it's Trek involves squatting next to the downed person and waving a tricorder around; the victim is then resurrected with a moment's paralysis (sometimes enough for bad guys to drop them again - it's happened to me a few times) and about 1/4 their HP.
I don't know that you can generalize that for a supers game, though. STO can have that because a tricorder is a small, common piece of equipment that almost every member of Starfleet, the Klingon Defense Force, and the Grand Fleet of the Romulan Republic is issued as a matter of course. Can't think of anything comparable in comics.
You could say it's something invented by Defender that he gives to you so that you can help defend the city.
There is one thing above all others Champions needs to borrow from STO and NW... the foundry. There is so much that people could do with that in CO it's unreal. BUT, that would take more dev time than ALL of the Mechanon stuff put together.
Gee, wolf-lady, I quit WoW because I felt forced to team - seriously, past a certain level you cannot complete storyline content solo.
Looks like your mass telepathy has failed you again...
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
Gee, wolf-lady, I quit WoW because I felt forced to team - seriously, past a certain level you cannot complete storyline content solo.
Looks like your mass telepathy has failed you again...
Considering how that isn't true, I find that hard to believe you had difficulty soloing in WoW at any given time other than maybe the level 50 to 60 game back in vanilla when quests started getting scarce and you need to farm for a few levels. But also considering that is also one of the top the reasons 3 million people just quit WoW. Mmm, I don't think it's psychic powers I am trying to employ.
Believe it or not people love to team in these games. That was one of the bigger attractions especially in sandbox games, having teams to achieve like minded goals. And stuff is too easy because the mobs are scaled poorly. It isn't because of super powered builds, that is only one problem. It's because the only time mobs presented a challenge was during CO's launch, and since then have been nerfed considerably. So much so that the reward for facing the bosses is pathetically bad comparably. Hell it's actually a punishment to team in this game, unlike other games.
Contrary to popular opinion on these forums, people love teaming in these games and many people actually enjoy feeling like they are contributing to a team. People have gone off the deep end and assumed casual meant solo-ist when that wasn't the case at all. It's the same group of people that think casual means bad player to.
And Cryptic can easily gain control back. The biggest issue with power creep in champs is the toggles. Remove those and powers stop going out of whack for starters, but the other issue is bosses that aren't properly scaled or gated to players. When the super villains aren't super anymore what kind of threat do they present? Mega Destroid use to be threatening even to the most munchkin build but was so incredibly nerfed that unless you purposely gimp yourself terribly, you couldn't be killed even if you didn't block the super attack.
It's just a tragedy of what's happened and it hasn't been in a good direction. Why do you think WoW just lost 3 million subscribers? Because the game is too easy and people are tired of the loneliness they feel that the garrison crap forced on them. Many people, even casuals, play these games to be apart of a larger community to feel like they belong. People that wanted to be the sole hero could do so with single player titles much easier than with an MMO.
There is a reason why people kept hoping Warlords of Draenor was suppose to be a rennaissance that returned WoW back to its Burning Crusade roots and it certainly wasn't for the single player experience. MMOs have that in spades, and it is a chief reason why said games are constantly failing.
I'm not sure why you're trying to convince me on the whole "teaming is good" thing. I never said otherwise. My reason for not teaming is because of my social anxiety issues, not because I think it's bad or useless.
You brought up the point that teaming felt like it was punishment. My question is: how so?
Regarding power levels, there will always be combinations of powers that can be cherry-picked that will make for a much stronger build than your average player or archetype build. I think I represent the normal player builds pretty well. Even though I've been here since launch, I never make it a point to squeeze all the effectiveness I can out of a build. I just build what's fun for me. Synergy? Don't know the meaning of the word. The only way that my builds will ever be as powerful as, say, yours, would be if there was a total homogenization of all the powers in the game (and getting rid of rank 7+ mods :biggrin: ), where picking one ranged power as opposed to another would not be an issue because they would perform equally well. Then you might see duels where everyone can turn into an angel briefly and call down his airplane to shoot his opponent down.
That's my opinion, anyway. Powers have gone wildly off the rails, and nothing short of monthly or bimonthly adjustments or just a total rewrite will ever put casual builders anywhere near the top builders.
Considering how that isn't true, I find that hard to believe you had difficulty soloing in WoW at any given time other than maybe the level 50 to 60 game back in vanilla when quests started getting scarce and you need to farm for a few levels. But also considering that is also one of the top the reasons 3 million people just quit WoW. Mmm, I don't think it's psychic powers I am trying to employ.
You're kinda forced to team in WoW. You can't get any decent gear without teaming, really. And there's not much else to your character in that game other than his gear. Unless you wanna hit the level cap to do some RP, there's not much else to do.
You're kinda forced to team in WoW. You can't get any decent gear without teaming, really. And there's not much else to your character in that game other than his gear. Unless you wanna hit the level cap to do some RP, there's not much else to do.
Not really, since there are quite a few good pieces of gear out there. The only reason to team for "good" gear is if you plan to go through progression which generally is normal, heroic, and their new mythic level difficulties, otherwise you never need to touch the group content in the game.
Not really, since there are quite a few good pieces of gear out there. The only reason to team for "good" gear is if you plan to go through progression which generally is normal, heroic, and their new mythic level difficulties, otherwise you never need to touch the group content in the game.
Right but what else is there to do then? Roll alts? That's what I did.
There is one particular mission, somewhere in the mid-60s, that requires (or required when last I played, around the Cataclysm) you to go into a lair. You can't complete the lair alone; there are far too many mobs. You have to team in order to clear the lair.
At least, unless you're a minor god, as the she-wolf apparently is - she can discern truth from falsehood across a continent, and can observe the playstyles of others through time, so clearing the lair solo was probably child's play.
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
This thread is a classic case of the same people trying to stomp on and use roundabout logic to try and defame a great topic on ideas in an attempt to derail the discussion or defame the OP's point.
Kindly stop, please. Your negativity and shut down attitude to everything you disagree with is sickening. Quit contributing to the problem and be helpful. Contribute. Don't argue experience and conclusions based on observable patterns which you choose to ignore. Instead try to use reason and throw in ideas to help enhance the ones proposed by others.
ok, on the original proposal. The map we have is the max size, they apparantly can work with.
On the Detroit map, doing a rough count, there's roughly 45 of the thumbnail pictures will fit in.
That's an awful lot of maps. How about, various odd areas, known for particular things?
Where the school actually is?
There's a large park/green area top left.
The Theatre district
Belle Isle.
Travel- teleporters. UNTIL has them.
Fast rail.
Get stuck in your own traffic jam caused by supervillain activity.(or a super hero playing stack the cars)
world map
you have North america, further north america.
Africa
and ocean of africa.
what about Asia, Europe, Australia(despite only having one listed villain Taipan)?
Top of ocean zone. Deal with problems above the water.
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I don't think you understand. If i think it's fine and I'm not lying to myself, then you're 100% wrong
So plopping down a slice of Italy is okay but not a slice of wherever else, because...?
Underground parking and connection to Powerhouse that we already know is there is uncanny valley? I think you might not know what that term really means. I don't see how underground parking, which is used in Millennium City already, creates any sort of a problem.
(Also, just looked at re map and yeah, the school wouldn't fit on the east side, I thought there was an equal area of space there.)
You can be lying to yourself without realizing it, people do it everyday.
Because Little Italy doesn't look out of place compared to the three glaringly out of place buildings in the middle of the Ren Center park. But this is also why I say change how the city works so little Italy isn't squashed in one city block.
There is no underground parking near the Ren center. The Underground Parking is in City Center and Westside, and only a few places at that. Using the power house as a means to train students in simulated missions, which is what the power house was suppose to be about, that's plausible. To imagine that the school has some secret underground subway system (because that's what you would need) to get to the power house is getting a bit far fetched there, especially considering theg oal of said expansion for said update would be to make it visible to everyone. Making it underground or even less than a small building would make it less than visible, especially if you just plop it down in a few buildings that already exist.
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The lore is still inconsistent on that, actually, since according to Resistance, teleportation technology was just invented, meanwhile we had teleporters since as early as game launch, so I don't call that reliable.
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Again, you're confusing your opinion, on something you couldn't possibly ever know, as fact. If I were to tell you that you secretly think this game is perfect, and that's a fact, that doesn't come off as arrogant to you?
No, it's completely arbitrary to decide it looks out of place if its purpose is to look different than it's surroundings. Note that the designer here coukd have used any Millennium City building to "fit in". They purposely chose something that stands out.
Underground parking is a real thing that can be used all over the world. That is the silliest thing to complain about looking slightly unnatural. As far as the connection to the Powerhouse, it's already there. Having a second entryway to the gym via teleporter (if teleporters are supposed to be secret, putting it behind doors that only open for faculty, students, and the superheroes of the city is completely not far fetched) is no different than having a door that leads directly to a gym connected to a school. Underground or above, it doesn't matter. It's just there for flavor to make it feel like more of a school.
Remember, the school already teleports you to the Powerhouse in the tutorial. The precedent is there for having teleportation technology.
You can make something stand out without making it look ridiculous in the process.
And yet that still ignores the overlying problem, one that is actually being highlighted in a couple of your posts and even in the thread about Ravenswood; It just doesn't fit. This is well beyond trying to fit a square peg into a round hole here, as we are constantly being told the world engine is at its limit with MC, then the only solution is the one I actually present in the OP because so much is missing from MC it's not even funny. Let's not even try to pretend that over 30 years of Champions Lore has yet to even be tapped in Champions Online.
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Well now you're just lying to yourself and you don't even know it.
See?
If you want to rely on your currently-not-realistic solution instead of some slight remodeling, be my guest. They're not going to completely remodel Millennium City and create two new zones just to make the school more aesthetically pleasing. With some tweaks, the school would fit right in.
Honestly, I think people are just suffering from a bit of shock, having something new plopped in, especially mixing that in with how rushed and basic the thing looks. I'm betting new players wouldn't even give it a second thought.
And yes, I'm fine with that, and no, I'm not lying to myself. Why, are you claiming to have suddenly developed psychic powers to rival Menton himself?
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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Your constant attempts are getting humorous Biff. But keep going with that.
I am not shocked. I am not even mildly amused at the moment. I am insulted because it's the same thing that happens every time they say they are committed to Champions, they redo the tutorial then touch some other new player experience, then when things start looking like they might actually be proving they are committed, they completely stop, because they have to save their license products, because Champions is expendable. They do this every time.
If they want get the game acceptable to people outside that are truly coming in from the superhero hype in the media then leaving things as is is definitely not the answer. This game needs a lot more than a simple tutorial swap, again, because there was nothing really wrong with the last one. The end result, they added a new start, but kept the old intro, and removed two more quests from the old tutorial.
This is not a positive change.
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Because if you are satisfied with the current product that's been stagnating for over 5 years now then there is nothing else to be told other than you are trying to convince yourself it's good enough, because it's not. The excuse of its niche is just baffling to me, and puzzles me how come people go out of their way to not want Champions to be the best it can be. Because yes, that's exactly what you are saying then. And even more baffling that people are not insulted with this constant tutorial redo parade we go through that follows the exact same cycle.
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Now you're getting it. Saying that kind of thing is completely ridiculous!
That's not the kind of shock I meant. I mean that something has changed without any sort of transition. To someone who's seen this place a thousand times, it's a visual shock to see something like that spring up. To someone that's never seen it? They probably won't give it a second glance.
Yep.
Removing a couple quests from the tutorial is hardly negative. I think the addition of the voiceovers completely negates what tiny little negative effects getting rid of a silly escort quest and a dumb cat brings with it.
You need to realize that you're not the target audience for this update; it's for new players. You have some nice ideas in this thread, and your fear of "they're just gonna screw with the tutorial and then leave it alone" is grounded in reality, but the game has a team working on it again, and they're in a place where they can borrow assets from the other games. I'm fairly confident this isn't the last bit of an update we'll see for a long time.
I do not appreciate being told what I think. I appreciate even less being told what I have said. And the simple fact that there are now two people who have stated that a) they're fine with the map size, and b) they're not lying, even to themselves, disproves your initial statement in this particular branch of the discussion. You're not content with the size of the map. You are not the entire playerbase.
(Nor am I, but I'm not the one making absolutist statements about what "everyone" thinks.)
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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The irony of this statement when I use to say remove certain elements from the game that were superfluous and you would tell me removing content was bad philosophy. And getting rid of the cat quest actually taught people that some quests come in items in their pack, and that if they are still keeping escorts in Champions, as it stands now, then removing an escort quest is bad, not to mention, it's a super heroic thing. The saving a cat for the old lady and rescuing a citizen and reuniting them with friends is like core of super hero dogma.
It's like the block quest, removing it didn't streamline anything in fact it just made people unaware that they had a block option.
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I suppose the cat mission did provide something useful. Could have been removed because most new people never found the cat in the first place? I think putting the cat in a more obvious area is a better solution instead of removing it, then.
I don't know the context of when I said removing content was bad. Was I talking about small, insignificant missions? The escort mission was a pain because it has you backtracking, slowly. I'd like the mission better if you had to take her to the cop guy in the next checkpoint, and if she keeps up with you, otherwise it's just a nuisance.
I don't think you really need an escort in the tutorial. Escort missions are pretty self-explanatory.
1. Could we all please stop abusing the poor word "Facts" when "Opinions we feel we are not alone in having" is more accurate?
2. As much as I will freely admit that some of the design suggesting in this recent addition are appealing(the pics really sell it) it is my opinion that such things would be lovely....either with more actual playable content or after the addition of actual playable content. When lost in the desert it is nice to have a pretty canteen....but there should be some water in it as well.
3. I like easter eggs. Apparently people who play video games also like easter eggs based on all these Youtube videos I can find on the subject. I honestly do not care of 3/4 of the people don't find the easter egg....but I would wager the 1 who does likes it, tells people about it, and probably thinks it's cool. Now if it demonstrates an extra lil nugget of information the player can learn to benefit them in the future of their gaming experience here....BONUS. If it doesn't...well IMO these lil things are what makes it a tutorial in CO and not a generic treadmill simulation. Also, of course, removing missions from CO historically appears to be a bad thing. You just don't know if the replacement will be better....or happen at all.
We now return you to your previously scheduled squabble...already in progress. :cool:
P.S. I just noticed this and wanted to touch on it briefly. There's a pretty good chance that pretty much every single person in this thread, myself included, aren't necessarily the ideal people to shape the tutorial if we're approaching it from what "we" see because we're vets. I think it's easy. You think it's easy, Tim over there in the corner thinks it's easy. Go run some alerts and realize that what you find amazingly easy....would likely steamroll the people in your alert if you were not there half of the time. So, when it comes to the subject of the tutorial, I'm not against anything that serves as a rudundant to a vet but might teach a newbie and cause them less grief in their playing experience. Heck, put in THREE Block Stations...just...to...be....sure. :biggrin:
Join Date: Aug 2009 | Title: Devslayer
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Being able to ress other players and make powers that rezz a faster, more awesome and powerful way to do it.
I think I recall we had that particular feature in STO, I didn't play NeverWinter, I'm still cranky I didn't get a beta for being a lifetimer here
=^ _ ^= Kitty Lives!
I don't know that you can generalize that for a supers game, though. STO can have that because a tricorder is a small, common piece of equipment that almost every member of Starfleet, the Klingon Defense Force, and the Grand Fleet of the Romulan Republic is issued as a matter of course. Can't think of anything comparable in comics.
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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I think Millennium City should get a more major overhaul than some random school being dumped in the park.
Some people will say but Jade Dynasty is a PWI game and Cryptic deals with Champs. Well thats nonsense as Champions Online for most of its life now has been a PWI game and Cryptic are nothing more than a PWI dev team these days.
The buck stops with Perfect World and they should take their finger out their butt and capitalize on the growing popularity of Super Heroes. They have really what is the greatest Super Hero video MMO ever made but are doing nothing with it. Shameful.
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Popularity of superhero movies =/= popularity of superheroes. Didn't you say you're involved in the comic-shop industry? Because that's the group that finds this the most painfully ironic, in my experience - watching people flock to see the antics of the Avengers and X-Men in the movies, but not so much with the buying and the reading of the comics.
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No my patience ran out. But you would not have known that since you were always too busy making up stories anyways.
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PWE = subsidiary of PWI which still means PWI owns them.
As far as Nepht owning a comic shop, she owns one in the UK. As far as the comic book boom versus a video game, well there is a supreme difference. Since a comic book would not appeal to laziness of America lately, and store owners tend to overbuy anyways.
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Thats like saying Nintendo of America isnt Nintendo. Your trying to argue for the sake of argument. Stop it. PWI was set up and is fully owned by PW.
Also me running a small book/comic/game shop has no relevance to this subject. I sell more Harry Potter books than I do Iron Man comics BUT if you want to be picky the sales of Super Hero related games have sky rocketed.
Perfect World is fully to blame for the lack of any real expansion in Champions Online over the last two years.
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I seriously doubt Reggie can go off and say they are going to do their own thing at Nintendo of America without Nintendo of Japan giving him the go ahead.
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Agreed. This overhaul could also mean the Devs expect a new influx of players. (Maybe)
Maybe this is the start of something bigger...if their costume designs don't send more packing that is.
A lot more work is still needed. UI work, powers fixed and overhauled, things of that nature, and whether people like it or not roles better defined. I know one fix that would make a lot of people who love playing support very happy; change how support powers work from directed (ie watching healthbars game play) to ae and field effects that they activate. AKA like how support works in Neverwinter or how it use to work in CoH. It's not fun when the only thing you do is watch healthbars as a support toon.
Removing toggles (toggles have been the biggest issue and cause of more headaches and imbalances since their re-inception) and making combat more dynamic instead of static would help to, but that would require too much of an overhaul at the moment.
Another thing I know would at least guarantee more interest in Champions from the get go; get rid of the ATs as a have to play this way for people wanting to toe the waters. Leave ATs as quick builds for people who don't want to hassle too much, but allow everyone to be freeform with restrictions, and this is how I would do it;
Pick one power set per framework to be the keystone, then all the other power sets would have to be bought either per character or could be paid for for the entire account. Subs get all this for free. So that means free players would have 6 initial power sets one from each tree, then the rest would be paid for. New power sets would be paid for, except agaiin for subs and lifers.
And if people bought the freeform then give them a token to unlock one power set and 3 free character slots. Honestly, that would have guaranteed more interest in Champions alone because the biggest gripe that you always here is that the key feature of Champions, the ability to make the character you want, isn't able to be used by free accounts, and is locked heavily behind a pay wall, unlike in STO or Neverwinter.
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You catch more flies with honey than vinegar. Locking the biggest feature of Champions (freeform building) behind a steep $50 dollar pay wall is vinegar to people. They would have made loads more money, loads more, giving a limited freeform and putting power sets behind smaller pay walls (if the price is reasonable like around $10 to $15 bucks per power set per character).
And yes, this is where we get to see their skill, but we need to start suggesting now. We've been here a while, we've listened to the complaints, and I've read them on various web sites and forums. Tracking what we, the current player base does, when most of us have been here since before Champions launch, doesn't tell them what they need to do to fix Champions, because many of us are just stuck in a routine, not actually presenting the big picture of what people want.
The list of the big complaints I know about from the various web sites, these are what I consider the top egregious complaints, in no particular order;
1. Freeform locked behind a pay wall
2. No team or group content and the game feels like it punishes teaming and grouping
3. No end game content to play in
4. The game is too easy and doesn't present a challenge
5. No worthy rewards for your effort and time
6. Nothing to interest big guilds to play
7. It doesn't feel like the Champions PnP
8. The Social experience and RP hot spots are lacking
9. The world feels too damn small
10. No new major zones or content and/or level cap increase
These are complaints I've read over the years from various websites as to reasons why people either don't care or don't bother with Champions now.
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When F2P came along, I had enough fun memories of playing Champs in college that I gave it another try; the ATs held my hand through the creation process well enough that later, when I subscribed, I still used some. Heck, when I wanted to check out psi powers in game not that long ago, I used a Mind so I could get a feel for how it all worked together.
Giving every new player Freeform capability may just result in confusion and quitting again. No one (except that breed that actually enjoys games like EvE) wants to start off with a learning curve so steep you could use it to teach mountaineering. At most, one might lower the cost of a Freeform slot - although there's the question of whether it devalues a subscription too far (I don't sub to STO because there's just not that much more in exchange for my money).
Thing is, Shewolf, you've been playing for so long you may not remember being confused at the beginning, or at least if you do you remember being confused along with everyone else. Nobody likes feeling like the only one who can't figure something out. We're trying to attract newbies here, not old hands.
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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I might have been playing that long, but since you ignored what I wrote I will repeat it; leave ATs as an option for those that don't want to have to deal with it. Leaving freeform behind a vinegar laced steep paywall is not inspiring people to come play. I can tell you that now. In fact it's the number 1 complaint you will find when it concerns people coming to try Champions, because people are pissed off they can't play with their powers and have to settle for the crappy ATs.
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To elaborate, I think something could be done to allow a free taste of freeform, but what you wrote didn't jump out at me as being the best course of action.
I don't get the complaints about teaming. I don't team a whole lot, but I have, and never noticed it being problematic, let alone felt punished for doing so.
The game will always be too easy, especially when you have people who like to make super-powered builds. You can't expect content to be built around them or the majority of the players will complain it's too hard. Cryptic can no longer control what power levels people should be at in order to gauge how difficult content should be, and that's why we end up with things like Gravitar, who can randomly one-shot the majority if the game's characters.
Back before Archetypes were a thing, I suggested something of a "soft" archetype to get people familiar with character building, since there were a lot of people confused as what to do (remember back when the most common complaint was "the game is too hard, I die all the time!" and the most common fix for that was "get a passive!"). It would be just like choosing an archetype, but at each level that you gain a power point or advantage and whatnot, the game would instruct you on what to pick, and why, but allow the player to deviate from the main plan and choose whatever powers they wanted. That way you can let the game hold your hand for as long as you need to, and once you get how things work, you can customize however you want.
Kinda tangential, but I still think it would be a good alternative to the Archetypes we have now.
Believe it or not people love to team in these games. That was one of the bigger attractions especially in sandbox games, having teams to achieve like minded goals. And stuff is too easy because the mobs are scaled poorly. It isn't because of super powered builds, that is only one problem. It's because the only time mobs presented a challenge was during CO's launch, and since then have been nerfed considerably. So much so that the reward for facing the bosses is pathetically bad comparably. Hell it's actually a punishment to team in this game, unlike other games.
Contrary to popular opinion on these forums, people love teaming in these games and many people actually enjoy feeling like they are contributing to a team. People have gone off the deep end and assumed casual meant solo-ist when that wasn't the case at all. It's the same group of people that think casual means bad player to.
And Cryptic can easily gain control back. The biggest issue with power creep in champs is the toggles. Remove those and powers stop going out of whack for starters, but the other issue is bosses that aren't properly scaled or gated to players. When the super villains aren't super anymore what kind of threat do they present? Mega Destroid use to be threatening even to the most munchkin build but was so incredibly nerfed that unless you purposely gimp yourself terribly, you couldn't be killed even if you didn't block the super attack.
It's just a tragedy of what's happened and it hasn't been in a good direction. Why do you think WoW just lost 3 million subscribers? Because the game is too easy and people are tired of the loneliness they feel that the garrison crap forced on them. Many people, even casuals, play these games to be apart of a larger community to feel like they belong. People that wanted to be the sole hero could do so with single player titles much easier than with an MMO.
There is a reason why people kept hoping Warlords of Draenor was suppose to be a rennaissance that returned WoW back to its Burning Crusade roots and it certainly wasn't for the single player experience. MMOs have that in spades, and it is a chief reason why said games are constantly failing.
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If you mean my map ideas, no it didn't. I do know cryptic had many more zones planned for champions, not the 5 we started with and the 6th added on. But, because of Atari well, you can see what happened, and by the time PWE came around to buy Cryptic, Cryptic had an STO license and that license was more important than Champions. It's a sad but true outcome, and even though STo was in a similar boat, everything was poured into saving STO, and Champions has since languished. And with Neverwinter in the mix it got worse. So, STO and Neverwinter both have seen new zones, content and updates that include level cap raises, and STO was brought back from the brink, while Champions, the owned IP, was left to basically rot and look on the other two games wishing, hoping for one of the scraps to fall off the fat tables of the other two products and hoping to get some updates and love that is sorely needed. Basic QOL stuff like UI and things of that nature.
Hell, STO just got a complete map overhaul that got rid of a lot of the sector map crap and converged the sectors down to 3 zones now. Not only does it make it feel more like deep space, but it's starting to look more like Star Trek.
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There is one thing above all others Champions needs to borrow from STO and NW... the foundry.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
My characters
You're just lying to yourself.
See how I turned that around?
Looks like your mass telepathy has failed you again...
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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Considering how that isn't true, I find that hard to believe you had difficulty soloing in WoW at any given time other than maybe the level 50 to 60 game back in vanilla when quests started getting scarce and you need to farm for a few levels. But also considering that is also one of the top the reasons 3 million people just quit WoW. Mmm, I don't think it's psychic powers I am trying to employ.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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No, you're still showing how unbelievably laughable you are at your vane attempt to look clever.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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Funny, considering everyone else appears to be laughing at you.
I'm not sure why you're trying to convince me on the whole "teaming is good" thing. I never said otherwise. My reason for not teaming is because of my social anxiety issues, not because I think it's bad or useless.
You brought up the point that teaming felt like it was punishment. My question is: how so?
Regarding power levels, there will always be combinations of powers that can be cherry-picked that will make for a much stronger build than your average player or archetype build. I think I represent the normal player builds pretty well. Even though I've been here since launch, I never make it a point to squeeze all the effectiveness I can out of a build. I just build what's fun for me. Synergy? Don't know the meaning of the word. The only way that my builds will ever be as powerful as, say, yours, would be if there was a total homogenization of all the powers in the game (and getting rid of rank 7+ mods :biggrin: ), where picking one ranged power as opposed to another would not be an issue because they would perform equally well. Then you might see duels where everyone can turn into an angel briefly and call down his airplane to shoot his opponent down.
That's my opinion, anyway. Powers have gone wildly off the rails, and nothing short of monthly or bimonthly adjustments or just a total rewrite will ever put casual builders anywhere near the top builders.
You're kinda forced to team in WoW. You can't get any decent gear without teaming, really. And there's not much else to your character in that game other than his gear. Unless you wanna hit the level cap to do some RP, there's not much else to do.
Not really, since there are quite a few good pieces of gear out there. The only reason to team for "good" gear is if you plan to go through progression which generally is normal, heroic, and their new mythic level difficulties, otherwise you never need to touch the group content in the game.
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Right but what else is there to do then? Roll alts? That's what I did.
That's the blight of a theme park game.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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At least, unless you're a minor god, as the she-wolf apparently is - she can discern truth from falsehood across a continent, and can observe the playstyles of others through time, so clearing the lair solo was probably child's play.
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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Kindly stop, please. Your negativity and shut down attitude to everything you disagree with is sickening. Quit contributing to the problem and be helpful. Contribute. Don't argue experience and conclusions based on observable patterns which you choose to ignore. Instead try to use reason and throw in ideas to help enhance the ones proposed by others.
On the Detroit map, doing a rough count, there's roughly 45 of the thumbnail pictures will fit in.
That's an awful lot of maps. How about, various odd areas, known for particular things?
Where the school actually is?
There's a large park/green area top left.
The Theatre district
Belle Isle.
Travel- teleporters. UNTIL has them.
Fast rail.
Get stuck in your own traffic jam caused by supervillain activity.(or a super hero playing stack the cars)
world map
you have North america, further north america.
Africa
and ocean of africa.
what about Asia, Europe, Australia(despite only having one listed villain Taipan)?
Top of ocean zone. Deal with problems above the water.
Underground- long cave systems.
http://www.redbull.com/au/en/adventure/stories/1331605699551/cave-explorers
you don't have to be chasing criminals, you may be looking for a rare item or ingredient for someones research.
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