In The Secret World (TSW) a number of bosses use indirect fire attacks periodically, for example carpet bombing from the Mayan Battlemage as it's known is a series of explosions marching across the battlefield.
When Battlemage teleports to the mountain nearby, he will strafe entire sections of the arena with a bombardment pattern. He will obliterate a third of the arena with each pass, going in the order of Entrance, Exit, Middle.
Course there's no travel powers in TSW (and by god I miss them) and the arena is smaller than one would like at times. Come to think of it there's a lorra stuff you just got to get to know and how to avoid in TSW.
Another mechanic from the same lair (Wayeb Xul) is suicide bomber adds which need a dpser to bolo for and kill em before they become problematic.
and he will frequently cast Sacrificial Ceremony, which resurrects 1-3 adds from the corpse pile. Adds resurrect pre-Bombized, and must be killed before they reach the party.
Lairs in TSW are spot wielded to the holy/unholy trinity but it's been refreshing in a way having to defeat enemies (or rather try and defeat enemies) to get enough points to get good enough gear to actually finish a lair. So many times I've been on teams that didn't really have a chance of completing a whole lair. CO is kinda cakey in comparison.
Wonder what my avatar looks like... it's been so long.
And nice to see Snakebite is still out there somewhere:mad:
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[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
The one who can't shut up formerly known as 4rksakes
About the @handle - it's a long story.
Profound quote.. "I'm not a complete idiot - several parts are missing."
CN can add all sorts of fancy hoops to jump through to keep combat fun. But if players can just ignore them because the resulting damage is just not dangerous, all that work is pretty much wasted when there is one high performance build in the team. The other option to make the hoops so dangerous it challenges the higher performing builds is also not acceptable, that would disqualify many other builds from being able to play, or at least makes the required player skill much higher.
The other options is to add lots and lots of one-shotting (regardless of how tanky you might be) to CO, that also equalizes builds performance.
The best option, that so many people seem to either ignore or not know about, is to not make it based completely around damage.
This game has more mechanics than just dealing damage. Not every death has to be a shotgun blast to the head. Death of a thousand cuts can often be a lot more exciting.
Just imagine you've been fighting a boss for three minutes, carelessly ignoring every special mechanic in the fight because you're a "super build". Then suddenly you notice you're absolutely loaded with debuffs, all of which have several minutes left on their duration....and you start to notice your super build isn't performing so super anymore. You were punished for your carelessness... but not by getting one-shotted.
You were punished for your carelessness... but not by getting one-shotted.
There are several creatures with stacking debuffs, but any 'after X minutes' effect will favor high end builds even more, because that's basically a DPS test -- can you drop the foe before the special power triggers.
The best option, that so many people seem to either ignore or not know about, is to not make it based completely around damage.
This game has more mechanics than just dealing damage. Not every death has to be a shotgun blast to the head. Death of a thousand cuts can often be a lot more exciting.
Just imagine you've been fighting a boss for three minutes, carelessly ignoring every special mechanic in the fight because you're a "super build". Then suddenly you notice you're absolutely loaded with debuffs, all of which have several minutes left on their duration....and you start to notice your super build isn't performing so super anymore. You were punished for your carelessness... but not by getting one-shotted.
There are a few problems with that (I feel like making lists today )
Lower performing builds will still have a much lower tolerance for anything like that. So if avoiding enough of those debuffs to not be rendered dead weight or be killed or something like that, is going to be a challenge for a well played optimized min-max freeform build, any poor, weak, crippled theme build is going to really struggle.
It does not sound very dangerous yet (need more blood in gore in your description)
CO boss fights are usually over after 3 minutes, unless you're soloing
Other then that is a nice idea. Just not suited to be implemented for the fast fights in almost all of CO currently.
There are several creatures with stacking debuffs, but any 'after X minutes' effect will favor high end builds even more, because that's basically a DPS test -- can you drop the foe before the special power triggers.
They'll actually favor players who pay attention and get out of the way of the debuffs the most. Remember how that's an option?
There are a few problems with that (I feel like making lists today )
Lower performing builds will still have a much lower tolerance for anything like that. So if avoiding enough of those debuffs to not be rendered dead weight or be killed or something like that, is going to be a challenge for a well played optimized min-max freeform build, any poor, weak, crippled theme build is going to really struggle.
It does not sound very dangerous yet (need more blood in gore in your description)
CO boss fights are usually over after 3 minutes, unless you're soloing
Other then that is a nice idea. Just not suited to be implemented for the fast fights in almost all of CO currently.
That doesn't make any sense. Are people with better builds somehow better at paying attention and reacting quickly because of their builds?
In fact, players who are a bit too used to their stats getting them through fights would possibly be the ones underperforming in some of these scenarios.
For example, a character built around using AD rotation and cooldown-based heals would suddenly be having a rather hard time after several stacks of a debuff that drastically increased their cooldown times. On the other hand, my might character who doesn't depend on cooldowns at all wouldn't even care.
Here we see an example where, depending on the nature of the debuffs, certain fights might actually be more crippling to those "super builds" than they would to my "unoptimized" might theme build (1 passive, 1 form, 1 block, rest of the bar full of attacks, AT-style FF).
The reason fights in CO are so fast is because we can all just stand in a circle around the boss and je- ...I mean, tank-n-spank them down with impunity. The pacing of the debuffs can always be increased to match any fight length, so I don't see how that's an issue either way. A 20 second fight can be a panic'd struggle for survival if spending a half second in any danger zone nets you 20 stacks of resistence and cooldown rating debuffing effects.
That doesn't make any sense. Are people with better builds somehow better at paying attention and reacting quickly because of their builds?
People who are technically competent tend to be technically competent in more than one area. The things you're talking about generally require the same skill sets.
In fact, players who are a bit too used to their stats getting them through fights would possibly be the ones underperforming in some of these scenarios.
For example, a character built around using AD rotation and cooldown-based heals would suddenly be having a rather hard time after several stacks of a debuff that drastically increased their cooldown times. On the other hand, my might character who doesn't depend on cooldowns at all wouldn't even care.
Here we see an example where, depending on the nature of the debuffs, certain fights might actually be more crippling to those "super builds" than they would to my "unoptimized" might theme build (1 passive, 1 form, 1 block, rest of the bar full of attacks, AT-style FF).
Unless cooldown reduction (and heal debuff, and resistance debuff, and dodge debuff, and damage debuff, and health debuff) is pushed to extreme levels, things like that can never get close to making up for the extreme performance differences in build, it is just never going to be an alternative to have builds themselves perform somewhat comparably.
It can affect certain type of build more, but builds not affected were (likely) much weaker and will continue to be so.
Also if debuffs like that gets commonplace and sufficiently crippling, it will just be build around.
The reason fights in CO are so fast is because we can all just stand in a circle around the boss and je- ...I mean, tank-n-spank them down with impunity. The pacing of the debuffs can always be increased to match any fight length, so I don't see how that's an issue either way. A 20 second fight can be a panic'd struggle for survival if spending a half second in any danger zone nets you 20 stacks of resistence and cooldown rating debuffing effects.
The fights are fast because cryptic intends them to be fast.
/edit
Thinking about it a little more, they could of course always take my list with changes, and implement those as debuffs.
I don't see the point in it, but like that debuffs could be used as a balancing mechanic.
It would of course require every single fight in the game to be reworked and rebalanced, way to much work for something that can be achieved in a fraction of the effort.
And even if they could take the completely balance mess we have now, and add just enough so and so debuffs to create some semblance off balance, that would be an pretty backward way of doing things.
People who are technically competent tend to be technically competent in more than one area. The things you're talking about generally require the same skill sets.
There are plenty of people who are good at building who are bad at reacting. In fact, there are a lot of people with really good builds who aren't even good at building, and are also bad at reacting.
"People who tend to be good at building also tend to be good at reacting" is just, flat out, not a true statement.
The word "so" meant it followed something else, which was the sentence before it, which you should read.
Lower performing builds will still have a much lower tolerance for anything like that. So if avoiding enough of those debuffs to not be rendered dead weight or be killed or something like that, is going to be a challenge for a well played optimized min-max freeform build, any poor, weak, crippled theme build is going to really struggle.
You still haven't explained your percieved relationship between a strong build, and the ability to avoid debuffs, nor the relationship between a "weak" build and the inability to avoid debuffs. Players won't be using their build to avoid the debuffs, they'll be using their movement keys and their block key. Hence why I'm questioning why you're saying that "lower performing" builds will have a lower tolerance.
Unless cooldown reduction (and heal debuff, and resistance debuff, and dodge debuff, and damage debuff, and health debuff) is pushed to extreme levels, things like that can never get close to making up for the extreme performance differences in build, it is just never going to be an alternative to have builds themselves perform somewhat comparably.
It can affect certain type of build more, but builds not affected were (likely) much weaker and will continue to be so.
Also if debuffs like that gets commonplace and sufficiently crippling, it will just be build around.
Here's something interesting to consider:
Player 1 DPS output: 1000
Player 2 DPS output: 500.
80% damage debuff applied to both players.
Player 1 DPS lost: 800
Player 2 DPS lost: 400
Players won't need to build around the debuffs. They're much more likely to just learn how to avoid them and in the process have a more fun fight doing so. Players who are willing to narrow their build options more and more just to be able to stand still during a fight will do so, and will get exactly what they pay for. With enough diversity, we can grind the possible "perfect for everything" builds down to an extremely small number.
/edit
Thinking about it a little more, they could of course always take my list with changes, and implement those as debuffs.
I don't see the point in it, but like that debuffs could be used as a balancing mechanic.
It would of course require every single fight in the game to be reworked and rebalanced, way to much work for something that can be achieved in a fraction of the effort.
And even if they could take the completely balance mess we have now, and add just enough so and so debuffs to create some semblance off balance, that would be an pretty backward way of doing things.
I think you're missing the reactive gameplay element of the conversation.
Try fighting Crusher solo with an Inferno then say its to easy
Neat. Now give an example of how skill can be used to win the scenario you presented under those exact same circumstances. After all, a hallmark of real challenge is that it is always overcome with player skill. A hallmark of fake challenge is that you win as soon as a non-skill dependant requirement is fulfilled (such as "gear check" fights in certain mmo raids).
The scenario you presented is not "hard", "difficult", or "challenging". What it is, is stat-gated. An inferno doesn't have the required stats (the main stat in question being healing-per-second) to beat that encounter. All you have to do is somehow push that stat up high enough using your options in game and then you beat the encounter (one such method would be to switch to another archetype like the Savage; doing this requires no skill, just resources).
The fact that you can never be skilled enough as an inferno to beat that encounter means that challenge is not a factor.
There are plenty of people who are good at building who are bad at reacting. In fact, there are a lot of people with really good builds who aren't even good at building, and are also bad at reacting.
People who have good builds are either good at analyzing the game, or have access to information from people who are good at that. That same sort of analysis works for puzzle bosses such as what you're talking about. As for raw reaction time, that just favors the guy with the low ping time, which is why MMOs rarely are built around twitch speed.
You still haven't explained your percieved relationship between a strong build, and the ability to avoid debuffs, nor the relationship between a "weak" build and the inability to avoid debuffs.
The key is that the skill to have a strong build, and the skill to know how to avoid debuffs, are the same skill. Actually performing is a separate skill, but affects both -- if you're good at using a power build (many of which are quite complex) you're probably also good at implementing the other sorts of technical challenges.
Neat. Now give an example of how skill can be used to win the scenario you presented under those exact same circumstances. After all, a hallmark of real challenge is that it is always overcome with player skill. A hallmark of fake challenge is that you win as soon as a non-skill dependant requirement is fulfilled (such as "gear check" fights in certain mmo raids).
The scenario you presented is not "hard", "difficult", or "challenging". What it is, is stat-gated. An inferno doesn't have the required stats (the main stat in question being healing-per-second) to beat that encounter. All you have to do is somehow push that stat up high enough using your options in game and then you beat the encounter (one such method would be to switch to another archetype like the Savage; doing this requires no skill, just resources).
The fact that you can never be skilled enough as an inferno to beat that encounter means that challenge is not a factor.
":3"
That might be so but the real truth of the matter is that second cat in your signature looks like its had a can of Red Bull rammed up its arse.
Good day.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
People who have good builds are either good at analyzing the game, or have access to information from people who are good at that. That same sort of analysis works for puzzle bosses such as what you're talking about. As for raw reaction time, that just favors the guy with the low ping time, which is why MMOs rarely are built around twitch speed.
Are you saying that you believe MMOs rarely use the "get out of the fire" mechanic?
The key is that the skill to have a strong build, and the skill to know how to avoid debuffs, are the same skill. Actually performing is a separate skill, but affects both -- if you're good at using a power build (many of which are quite complex) you're probably also good at implementing the other sorts of technical challenges.
How is skill at picking things from a list that will work well together similar to the skill of being observant during an encounter and reacting quickly?
I think you're misunderstanding what is meant by "being good at building", and/or misunderstanding the types of mechanics that I'm proposing. Even if someone is good at knowing what order they should use their powers in, that doesn't translate to anything else other than using powers in the correct order.
OI! Don't put words in my mouth. I was just pointing out that it was done way back when. Note that I didn't put any commentary on that at all. I'm still not.
Any conclusions you drew from that are your own. I'm well aware that my people are far outside the norm.
In game, I am @EvilTaco. Happily killing purple gang members since May 2008. RIP Caine
Submitted for your approval: My sister's boyfriend soloing Mandragalore elite pre-on alert. When stuff was harder. After literally a month of playing.
Looks like he took 1 hour 15 minutes and still hadn't killed the boss by then o.o He also lost momentum a few times and had to LOS/retreat and block/heal up. If anything it proves that back then you needed a party to get enough DPS to not bore yourself to tears from the sheer tedium of it.
Yeah, I watched this live. Pretty much the case, but he did win. Not sure why the video didn't catch it, but in the end he took the boss down.
To be fair, stuff like pathing is common in most other mmos. We seem to be special in not requiring such tactics. I've gotten some odd comments from using pathing in the bank to dps on archetypes. It's apparently alien here. THAT seems to be the best indicator of the challenge level here: When you play the mmo like any other, people get confused and ask why you're hopping behind walls.
Could also be a commentary about the player base skill, but meh.
In game, I am @EvilTaco. Happily killing purple gang members since May 2008. RIP Caine
Looks like he took 1 hour 15 minutes and still hadn't killed the boss by then o.o He also lost momentum a few times and had to LOS/retreat and block/heal up. If anything it proves that back then you needed a party to get enough DPS to not bore yourself to tears from the sheer tedium of it.
You still need a party to get enough DPS. The other day I spent 30 Minutes Soloing Amazing Grace in MC, but finally asked for help because I didn't want to wack at her for that long. LOL
To be fair, stuff like pathing is common in most other mmos. We seem to be special in not requiring such tactics. I've gotten some odd comments from using pathing in the bank to dps on archetypes. It's apparently alien here. THAT seems to be the best indicator of the challenge level here: When you play the mmo like any other, people get confused and ask why you're hopping behind walls.
What's pathing? I googled it and still couldn't figure it out.
Regardless of peoples infinite ability to complain and deny what they see in video format,
Was it indeed solo'd? Yes it freekin well was.
Further to add to his point, on a pretty casual build. It's tanky but its not min-max device spammin, DPS crazy. Thats an honest player doing an honest days work, which is normally solo-ing the game because most of the content warrants no team.
You still need a party to get enough DPS. The other day I spent 30 Minutes Soloing Amazing Grace in MC, but finally asked for help because I didn't want to wack at her for that long. LOL
Well, you're not really soloing Amazing Grace - Cpl. Antoine Harrison of the MCPD is more than happy to try tanking her when you need a breather.
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
Fact is you can argue and discuss if it's easy or not all you like generally it's due to certain things (powers/gear/devices) which can then be stacked ontop of each other to piece by piece make the game an easier experience. As I've said many times before the game gets easier as your progress instead of harder as a game usually should.
I posted this a while back when gradii asked me to give a go soloing on an inferno with no gear or devices to affect me. Pretty much at a similar point of hardship that someone starting the game as a low level would be at if we are to think level 40 content is designed around having more powers than level 6 content. The video is here. I actually do fail pretty bad in it, which is a lot due to me not playing the inferno or using many fire powers that often before giving this a go.
Oh also I only just noticed a person has named themselves after me, how thoughtful. To what he said on his last post why yes everything in CO can be solo'd other than fire and ice where they put a mechanic just to stop it, technically you could use something to attempt to break yourself out of the ice cages but it may be too hard with all the other stuff going on at the same time. Also to where snake mentions Elixir in your other post, yeah he really does seem to hate that one a lot. I never actually used it myself seeing as I find CO PvE dreadfully boring unless I play on my funny builds usually on my alt character which uses builds worse than most AT's. In PvP it's removed on trauma so is pointless as a device.
The only reason these things make it so much easier is encounters have too much to do with raw numbers and too little to do with strategy and brains.
So you suggest that cryptic try some crazy AI overhaul? Thing is most MMO's AI isn't all that smart and it isn't the AI that causes the difficulty. The difficulty often comes from either larger harder numbers that although are predictable are hard to defend against or it comes from scripted fights. Although scripted fights are viable to do for CO it takes time and isn't efficient. Numbers can be increased but currently the way everything is in CO it simply isn't a viable way to make things difficult for people.
The suggestion you put ended up basically just suggesting that it is due to the power creep especially that which happens once you get to 40 that causes the game to become stupid easy and not need any tactics. The two level 15-20's only needed to use tactics to do the mission because of their lack of damage/healing/defense. It doesn't really back up previous mentions of making the AI smarter and able to counter players in some way. But as I said just increasing raw numbers is not a viable choice for CO as some things give much higher raw numbers than others for the player and anyone who doesn't use the specific stacking of numbers will end up unable to do the content if we are talking usual challenging MMO content.
There are things that can technically be done to make the game harder but it will never come to CO. We don't have the resources and PWE only want the game afloat and making a steady profit to fund itself as well as contributing to other projects / NW / STO.
And, once players know the script, much of the difficulty disappears.
Depends, worked find in Gravitar like the scripted Yellow bubble given if certain conditions are met. Only thing missing in Gravitar is extra mobs to deal with.
But...when cryptic mess up...and they do, a lot...you end up with Vikorins lava golems in Elite mode, or the Mandragalore being unable to fire or just not doing anything, just broken.
Cryptic would be best saving all costs, and just give enemies more powers, with much more conditions. All you'd need to do is change the builds on enemies, you wouldnt need to touch AI.
No offense to yall with big plans on a dieing game, but you cant keep suggesting AI overhauls they simply cannot afford to produce in todays conditions. They need good changes, and they need to make them as cheaply as possible.
And, once players know the script, much of the difficulty disappears.
In the end it's not so much about difficulty, as it is about fights not being the exact same simple thing over and over. Do I think CO will ever be what people consider a difficult game? No. I don't ever expect anyone to say "Hey you want a challenge, try CO!". I would however love to have people talk about how action-filled the combat is... which currently it's not. And yes, this is coming from someone who doesn't use the min-max builds everyone loves to accuse people of using (my current favorite build has a passive, a form, a block, and then everything else is attacks - an AT style FF build).
And, once players know the script, much of the difficulty disappears.
Not if the script is complex enough. It actually ends up making it harder with a group but being scripted it makes a group needed. One mistake and someone is dead, if someone dies it's one less DPS / Tank / Healer and you'll have to wipe and try again if it's a fight that needs that person. Wildstar is probably the most hardcore MMO for raids currently and all it's fights are scripted. But they are scripted in a way that there is a fine line between life and death constantly, things you have to be doing at the same time as something else while also making sure you keep up DPS because you are limited by time.
The problem with scripted fights from a game design point of view is that it would take time and effort to put together. Which C North aren't given and never really will be.
Not if the script is complex enough. It actually ends up making it harder with a group but being scripted it makes a group needed. One mistake and someone is dead, if someone dies it's one less DPS / Tank / Healer and you'll have to wipe and try again if it's a fight that needs that person. Wildstar is probably the most hardcore MMO for raids currently and all it's fights are scripted. But they are scripted in a way that there is a fine line between life and death constantly, things you have to be doing at the same time as something else while also making sure you keep up DPS because you are limited by time.
Only if that's how it's scripted It doesn't have to be. There are many examples of scripted fights where mistakes don't equal instant death. There are also many examples of scripted fights that are solo encounters. There are also many examples of scripted fights where the individual does not need to pray that nobody else screws up and can instead worry only about their own performance. It's all in how you lay down the rules and sequences.
For example - Fire and Ice has you heavily depending on your group. Someone moves when they're not supposed to, tank loses aggro, healer dies of an aspirin overdose... failure. Gravitar on the other hand does not have you depending on your group - everyone else can screw up repeatedly, and you can still finish the fight based on your own ability. I tend to like the second kind of setup more (the first one is kind of why I stopped playing that other MMO... or, heck, other MMOs).
The problem with scripted fights from a game design point of view is that it would take time and effort to put together. Which C North aren't given and never really will be.
Can we just stop with this? Can anyone around here make a suggestion anymore without someone else running up in a bright white samurai costume assuming a three point stance and yelling "NO! CRYPTIC CANNOT HANDLE THIS! I AS THEIR MOTHER WILL PROTECT THEM FROM YOUR IRRATIONAL CHILD LABOR ABUSES!".
Also, how do you give someone time and effort? I heard those are things you have to grow yourself.
Sorry I should of mentioned, I was only talking about end game group content here. I don't think the 1-39 content in CO is "easy" it's easier than it used to be and still fairly casual gameplay wise but it's not exactly as super mega easy as what the game ends up being at 40 especially end game 40.
Fire and Ice's scripted stuff was rather odd and could of been designed better however generally in comparison to other games as end game content goes it was rather easy. The problem is that drop rate is created stupidly. If the drop rate was rather generous on the tokens we'd all complain how easy to obtain it is and how easy the content is. If they actually made fire and ice and the other rampages harder and worked out using actual maths from the numbers various powers do / protect against to make it need a very good run from the end game players but then give a token for every completion I would of preferred it massively. Not that everyone else would of course because they would complain you are forcing builds upon people or that it isn't viable for AT's which the current content is created to be viable for still.
Time and effort = money from PWE. Something they are only given for rather specific things it seems. Call for me the next time they do a change that remotely interests me instead of adding "new" powers that totally avoid any interest. Meanwhile I'll still be stalking about here because it's funny here sometimes.
Time and effort = money from PWE. Something they are only given for rather specific things it seems. Call for me the next time they do a change that remotely interests me instead of adding "new" powers that totally avoid any interest. Meanwhile I'll still be stalking about here because it's funny here sometimes.
They get paid salaries though. It's not as if PWE is throttling the electricity that goes into CN's building, or causing their computes to turn off after X hours of work, or sending guys to club them unconscious after they spend so many hours per day brainstorming and working.
Let's say I'm a billionaire. What could I buy CN that would magically make them able to do all the things other than more employees?
Can we just stop with this? Can anyone around here make a suggestion anymore without someone else running up in a bright white samurai costume assuming a three point stance and yelling "NO! CRYPTIC CANNOT HANDLE THIS! I AS THEIR MOTHER WILL PROTECT THEM FROM YOUR IRRATIONAL CHILD LABOR ABUSES!".
If you want to make a suggestion that has a chance of being implemented, it should be a realistic suggestion given the potential benefits and the resources available to CN. Of course, the evidence that Cryptic even reads the suggestion board is minimal.
Changing the critter level tables so high level critters are more potent should be easy, though it might require rebalancing a small number of recently introduced critters. Giving added powers to critters is more work, since you have to edit multiple critter template files. AI tweaks are large.
If you want to make a suggestion that has a chance of being implemented, it should be a realistic suggestion given the potential benefits and the resources available to CN. Of course, the evidence that Cryptic even reads the suggestion board is minimal.
Or maybe we should make whatever suggestion we like and let them worry about the possibility. My imagination isn't on their payroll. We've gone way too far with this "they can't handle that" and "here's a suggestion, you can charge us for it!" mind set. What's next, people making rationalizations for why we're better off with bugs they say they can't fix?
They get paid salaries though. It's not as if PWE is throttling the electricity that goes into CN's building, or causing their computes to turn off after X hours of work, or sending guys to club them unconscious after they spend so many hours per day brainstorming and working.
Let's say I'm a billionaire. What could I buy CN that would magically make them able to do all the things other than more employees?
Having a salary doesn't mean you also have all the time in the world. More employees is what gets more things done. That's why Cryptic's other games have much, much larger teams. It's either small content updates at a regular pace, or large content updates with a huge gap in between. And working 20 hour days to get it done isn't an option.
Your post makes it sound like you think they fill their content quota and then take a few weeks off and screw around playing poker all day until their next content requirement starts. If all games could crank out huge content with just a handful of employees, there'd be no need for 50+ man teams.
So if you were a billionaire and wanted to give them something to do all the things, but you're harshly against more employees, I'd say develop a time machine. Or transfer their consciousness into robots that don't require food or sleep. Or, you know, live within the realm of reality and give them more butts to fill chairs with.
Having a salary doesn't mean you also have all the time in the world. More employees is what gets more things done. That's why Cryptic's other games have much, much larger teams. It's either small content updates at a regular pace, or large content updates with a huge gap in between. And working 20 hour days to get it done isn't an option.
20 hour days? The heck are you, a slave driver? Or maybe you're trying to strawman someone else into looking like a slave driver?
Your post makes it sound like you think they fill their content quota and then take a few weeks off and screw around playing poker all day until their next content requirement starts. If all games could crank out huge content with just a handful of employees, there'd be no need for 50+ man teams.
Ah yes, there's the strawman. Which part of my post makes it sound like that? Is this the part where you conveniently stop responding? u_u
So if you were a billionaire and wanted to give them something to do all the things, but you're harshly against more employees, I'd say develop a time machine. Or transfer their consciousness into robots that don't require food or sleep. Or, you know, live within the realm of reality and give them more butts to fill chairs with.
Exactly. It's literally just the amount of time the employees are willing to put in that determines what gets done. That'd be the point I was making.
Where did you get "harshly against more employees". Did you really imagine some harsh tone that I was writing in?
20 hour days? The heck are you, a slave driver? Or maybe you're trying to strawman someone else into looking like a slave driver?
Did you not read the part where I said 20 hour days were not an option?
My point was that with what they have, if they needed to put out twice the content, it would take about twice the time to develop it, meaning working very long days to achieve that goal. It's not an option because that's a real crappy way to live for months on end. If you want twice the content, you hire more people.
Ah yes, there's the strawman. Which part of my post makes it sound like that? Is this the part where you conveniently stop responding? u_u
"They get paid salaries though. It's not as if PWE is throttling the electricity that goes into CN's building, or causing their computes to turn off after X hours of work, or sending guys to club them unconscious after they spend so many hours per day brainstorming and working."
Unless I'm misreading, you're saying "They get paid, so they should be able to get all the work done. It's not like they're being forced to not work by shutting down their power or being beaten unconscious."
It seems like you think that since money is being paid, a lot more work should be done in the same timeframes that we're receiving content. (Notice how I say things like "it seems" and "makes it sound like", inviting you to further explain if I'm mistaken, instead of accusing you directly. It's not a strawman argument, it's showing you what your posts read like.)
And for what it's worth, I "conveniently" stop responding when your arguments stop making sense to me, instead of going on and on ad nauseam with "no you're wrong and dumb, I'm right and smart" trying to win some ****ing contest that I have no interest in.
Exactly. It's literally just the amount of time the employees are willing to put in that determines what gets done. That'd be the point I was making.
Okay, so you're basing this off of an assumption that they're lazy and/or unmotivated to do all the work they can. (Or perhaps some other factor that explains why they're not giving it 100% so I can preemptively dodge your "strawman" bullets.)
I just want to point something out here. Your argument is "It's literally just the amount of time the employees are willing to put in that determines what gets done." When I said, to paraphrase, that they're not just filling their content quotas and then taking a break the rest of the time, you claimed it was a strawman argument. You're smart enough to see that my "strawman argument" is basically the same thing as the point you're making, right?
Where did you get "harshly against more employees". Did you really imagine some harsh tone that I was writing in?
No, I didn't. You came up with a scenario where you have a hell of a lot of money, but of absolutely all the things you could do with that money to get more content made, the one thing you said you would not do, is hire more employees.
So let me ask you a question, what makes you think that the Cryptic North guys are not putting in all the time they can into it?
And another question, have you ever worked in a game development environment?
Did you not read the part where I said 20 hour days were not an option?
My point was that with what they have, if they needed to put out twice the content, it would take about twice the time to develop it, meaning working very long days to achieve that goal. It's not an option because that's a real crappy way to live for months on end. If you want twice the content, you hire more people.
I think I see the problem here (I saw it when you started talking about "twice the amount of content" which is something that hasn't been mentioned); you don't know the context of the statement, and you're responding to it in a vacuum. So here is the context:
Time and effort = money from PWE. Something they are only given for rather specific things it seems. Call for me the next time they do a change that remotely interests me instead of adding "new" powers that totally avoid any interest. Meanwhile I'll still be stalking about here because it's funny here sometimes.
There you go. Now that you understand the context the statement was made in, things should be much clearer and less prone to wayward interpretation.
You'll find me on many forums for f2p games including this one telling people they're wrong when they demand that people who make a free game work harder. That should go ahead and cut off any further arguments you feel the need to make where you believe we disagree on that matter.
"They get paid salaries though. It's not as if PWE is throttling the electricity that goes into CN's building, or causing their computes to turn off after X hours of work, or sending guys to club them unconscious after they spend so many hours per day brainstorming and working."
Unless I'm misreading, you're saying "They get paid, so they should be able to get all the work done. It's not like they're being forced to not work by shutting down their power or being beaten unconscious."
You're misreading. Everything you typed after that point was pretty much based on that misunderstanding, so I won't respond to it.
They get paid salaries though. It's not as if PWE is throttling the electricity that goes into CN's building, or causing their computes to turn off after X hours of work, or sending guys to club them unconscious after they spend so many hours per day brainstorming and working.
Okay, let me put it this way: PWE is throttling the amount of work CN can do, by throttling the staffing levels. You seem to think that CN can magically put out more stuff than they do, without PWE increasing staffing levels. They can't.
Okay, let me put it this way: PWE is throttling the amount of work CN can do, by throttling the staffing levels. You seem to think that CN can magically put out more stuff than they do, without PWE increasing staffing levels. They can't.
Again, you're imagining that that's what I think. I don't think that. I'll go ahead and drop this quote here since you seem to have missed it
You'll find me on many forums for f2p games including this one telling people they're wrong when they demand that people who make a free game work harder. That should go ahead and cut off any further arguments you feel the need to make where you believe we disagree on that matter.
Unless you work in CN's office, there is no way at all anyone who plays CO can evaluation the performance of the dev team in any way, shape, or form.
That would be the exact issue I was taking with hinkey's statement. There's really no way any of us can say that PWE is somehow limiting what CN can do, so trying to say PWE has some sort of money-based speed-limiter in place is just crazy baseless speculation.
Unless you work in CN's office, there is no way at all anyone who plays CO can evaluation the performance of the dev team in any way, shape, or form.
Hardly true. You can't figure out exactly the reasonable performance without a lot more information about the code base, but basic familiarity with software production is sufficient to know that the CN staff is inadequate to do a full game AI rewrite.
Comments
In The Secret World (TSW) a number of bosses use indirect fire attacks periodically, for example carpet bombing from the Mayan Battlemage as it's known is a series of explosions marching across the battlefield.
Course there's no travel powers in TSW (and by god I miss them) and the arena is smaller than one would like at times. Come to think of it there's a lorra stuff you just got to get to know and how to avoid in TSW.
Another mechanic from the same lair (Wayeb Xul) is suicide bomber adds which need a dpser to bolo for and kill em before they become problematic. Lairs in TSW are spot wielded to the holy/unholy trinity but it's been refreshing in a way having to defeat enemies (or rather try and defeat enemies) to get enough points to get good enough gear to actually finish a lair. So many times I've been on teams that didn't really have a chance of completing a whole lair. CO is kinda cakey in comparison.
Wonder what my avatar looks like... it's been so long.
And nice to see Snakebite is still out there somewhere:mad:
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
The one who can't shut up formerly known as 4rksakes
About the @handle - it's a long story.
Profound quote.. "I'm not a complete idiot - several parts are missing."
The best option, that so many people seem to either ignore or not know about, is to not make it based completely around damage.
This game has more mechanics than just dealing damage. Not every death has to be a shotgun blast to the head. Death of a thousand cuts can often be a lot more exciting.
Just imagine you've been fighting a boss for three minutes, carelessly ignoring every special mechanic in the fight because you're a "super build". Then suddenly you notice you're absolutely loaded with debuffs, all of which have several minutes left on their duration....and you start to notice your super build isn't performing so super anymore. You were punished for your carelessness... but not by getting one-shotted.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
There are a few problems with that (I feel like making lists today
Other then that is a nice idea. Just not suited to be implemented for the fast fights in almost all of CO currently.
They'll actually favor players who pay attention and get out of the way of the debuffs the most. Remember how that's an option?
That doesn't make any sense. Are people with better builds somehow better at paying attention and reacting quickly because of their builds?
In fact, players who are a bit too used to their stats getting them through fights would possibly be the ones underperforming in some of these scenarios.
For example, a character built around using AD rotation and cooldown-based heals would suddenly be having a rather hard time after several stacks of a debuff that drastically increased their cooldown times. On the other hand, my might character who doesn't depend on cooldowns at all wouldn't even care.
Here we see an example where, depending on the nature of the debuffs, certain fights might actually be more crippling to those "super builds" than they would to my "unoptimized" might theme build (1 passive, 1 form, 1 block, rest of the bar full of attacks, AT-style FF).
The reason fights in CO are so fast is because we can all just stand in a circle around the boss and je- ...I mean, tank-n-spank them down with impunity. The pacing of the debuffs can always be increased to match any fight length, so I don't see how that's an issue either way. A 20 second fight can be a panic'd struggle for survival if spending a half second in any danger zone nets you 20 stacks of resistence and cooldown rating debuffing effects.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
The word "so" meant it followed something else, which was the sentence before it, which you should read.
Unless cooldown reduction (and heal debuff, and resistance debuff, and dodge debuff, and damage debuff, and health debuff) is pushed to extreme levels, things like that can never get close to making up for the extreme performance differences in build, it is just never going to be an alternative to have builds themselves perform somewhat comparably.
It can affect certain type of build more, but builds not affected were (likely) much weaker and will continue to be so.
Also if debuffs like that gets commonplace and sufficiently crippling, it will just be build around.
The fights are fast because cryptic intends them to be fast.
/edit
Thinking about it a little more, they could of course always take my list with changes, and implement those as debuffs.
I don't see the point in it, but like that debuffs could be used as a balancing mechanic.
It would of course require every single fight in the game to be reworked and rebalanced, way to much work for something that can be achieved in a fraction of the effort.
And even if they could take the completely balance mess we have now, and add just enough so and so debuffs to create some semblance off balance, that would be an pretty backward way of doing things.
There are plenty of people who are good at building who are bad at reacting. In fact, there are a lot of people with really good builds who aren't even good at building, and are also bad at reacting.
"People who tend to be good at building also tend to be good at reacting" is just, flat out, not a true statement.
You still haven't explained your percieved relationship between a strong build, and the ability to avoid debuffs, nor the relationship between a "weak" build and the inability to avoid debuffs. Players won't be using their build to avoid the debuffs, they'll be using their movement keys and their block key. Hence why I'm questioning why you're saying that "lower performing" builds will have a lower tolerance.
Here's something interesting to consider:
Player 1 DPS output: 1000
Player 2 DPS output: 500.
80% damage debuff applied to both players.
Player 1 DPS lost: 800
Player 2 DPS lost: 400
Players won't need to build around the debuffs. They're much more likely to just learn how to avoid them and in the process have a more fun fight doing so. Players who are willing to narrow their build options more and more just to be able to stand still during a fight will do so, and will get exactly what they pay for. With enough diversity, we can grind the possible "perfect for everything" builds down to an extremely small number.
Nobody is arguing against fast fights, so I'm not sure why this is relevant.
I think you're missing the reactive gameplay element of the conversation.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
Neat. Now give an example of how skill can be used to win the scenario you presented under those exact same circumstances. After all, a hallmark of real challenge is that it is always overcome with player skill. A hallmark of fake challenge is that you win as soon as a non-skill dependant requirement is fulfilled (such as "gear check" fights in certain mmo raids).
The scenario you presented is not "hard", "difficult", or "challenging". What it is, is stat-gated. An inferno doesn't have the required stats (the main stat in question being healing-per-second) to beat that encounter. All you have to do is somehow push that stat up high enough using your options in game and then you beat the encounter (one such method would be to switch to another archetype like the Savage; doing this requires no skill, just resources).
The fact that you can never be skilled enough as an inferno to beat that encounter means that challenge is not a factor.
":3"
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
That might be so but the real truth of the matter is that second cat in your signature looks like its had a can of Red Bull rammed up its arse.
Good day.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
BEEP BOOP. Snake ses
Are you saying that you believe MMOs rarely use the "get out of the fire" mechanic?
How is skill at picking things from a list that will work well together similar to the skill of being observant during an encounter and reacting quickly?
I think you're misunderstanding what is meant by "being good at building", and/or misunderstanding the types of mechanics that I'm proposing. Even if someone is good at knowing what order they should use their powers in, that doesn't translate to anything else other than using powers in the correct order.
That's... not how you're supposed to use Red Bull.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Submitted for your approval: My sister's boyfriend soloing Mandragalore elite pre-on alert. When stuff was harder. After literally a month of playing.
RIP Caine
Any conclusions you drew from that are your own. I'm well aware that my people are far outside the norm.
RIP Caine
Looks like he took 1 hour 15 minutes and still hadn't killed the boss by then o.o He also lost momentum a few times and had to LOS/retreat and block/heal up. If anything it proves that back then you needed a party to get enough DPS to not bore yourself to tears from the sheer tedium of it.
To be fair, stuff like pathing is common in most other mmos. We seem to be special in not requiring such tactics. I've gotten some odd comments from using pathing in the bank to dps on archetypes. It's apparently alien here. THAT seems to be the best indicator of the challenge level here: When you play the mmo like any other, people get confused and ask why you're hopping behind walls.
Could also be a commentary about the player base skill, but meh.
RIP Caine
You still need a party to get enough DPS. The other day I spent 30 Minutes Soloing Amazing Grace in MC, but finally asked for help because I didn't want to wack at her for that long. LOL
What's pathing? I googled it and still couldn't figure it out.
Was it indeed solo'd? Yes it freekin well was.
Further to add to his point, on a pretty casual build. It's tanky but its not min-max device spammin, DPS crazy. Thats an honest player doing an honest days work, which is normally solo-ing the game because most of the content warrants no team.
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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I posted this a while back when gradii asked me to give a go soloing on an inferno with no gear or devices to affect me. Pretty much at a similar point of hardship that someone starting the game as a low level would be at if we are to think level 40 content is designed around having more powers than level 6 content. The video is here. I actually do fail pretty bad in it, which is a lot due to me not playing the inferno or using many fire powers that often before giving this a go.
Oh also I only just noticed a person has named themselves after me, how thoughtful. To what he said on his last post why yes everything in CO can be solo'd other than fire and ice where they put a mechanic just to stop it, technically you could use something to attempt to break yourself out of the ice cages but it may be too hard with all the other stuff going on at the same time. Also to where snake mentions Elixir in your other post, yeah he really does seem to hate that one a lot. I never actually used it myself seeing as I find CO PvE dreadfully boring unless I play on my funny builds usually on my alt character which uses builds worse than most AT's. In PvP it's removed on trauma so is pointless as a device.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
So you suggest that cryptic try some crazy AI overhaul? Thing is most MMO's AI isn't all that smart and it isn't the AI that causes the difficulty. The difficulty often comes from either larger harder numbers that although are predictable are hard to defend against or it comes from scripted fights. Although scripted fights are viable to do for CO it takes time and isn't efficient. Numbers can be increased but currently the way everything is in CO it simply isn't a viable way to make things difficult for people.
The suggestion you put ended up basically just suggesting that it is due to the power creep especially that which happens once you get to 40 that causes the game to become stupid easy and not need any tactics. The two level 15-20's only needed to use tactics to do the mission because of their lack of damage/healing/defense. It doesn't really back up previous mentions of making the AI smarter and able to counter players in some way. But as I said just increasing raw numbers is not a viable choice for CO as some things give much higher raw numbers than others for the player and anyone who doesn't use the specific stacking of numbers will end up unable to do the content if we are talking usual challenging MMO content.
There are things that can technically be done to make the game harder but it will never come to CO. We don't have the resources and PWE only want the game afloat and making a steady profit to fund itself as well as contributing to other projects / NW / STO.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
And, once players know the script, much of the difficulty disappears.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Depends, worked find in Gravitar like the scripted Yellow bubble given if certain conditions are met. Only thing missing in Gravitar is extra mobs to deal with.
But...when cryptic mess up...and they do, a lot...you end up with Vikorins lava golems in Elite mode, or the Mandragalore being unable to fire or just not doing anything, just broken.
Cryptic would be best saving all costs, and just give enemies more powers, with much more conditions. All you'd need to do is change the builds on enemies, you wouldnt need to touch AI.
No offense to yall with big plans on a dieing game, but you cant keep suggesting AI overhauls they simply cannot afford to produce in todays conditions. They need good changes, and they need to make them as cheaply as possible.
In the end it's not so much about difficulty, as it is about fights not being the exact same simple thing over and over. Do I think CO will ever be what people consider a difficult game? No. I don't ever expect anyone to say "Hey you want a challenge, try CO!". I would however love to have people talk about how action-filled the combat is... which currently it's not. And yes, this is coming from someone who doesn't use the min-max builds everyone loves to accuse people of using (my current favorite build has a passive, a form, a block, and then everything else is attacks - an AT style FF build).
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Not if the script is complex enough. It actually ends up making it harder with a group but being scripted it makes a group needed. One mistake and someone is dead, if someone dies it's one less DPS / Tank / Healer and you'll have to wipe and try again if it's a fight that needs that person. Wildstar is probably the most hardcore MMO for raids currently and all it's fights are scripted. But they are scripted in a way that there is a fine line between life and death constantly, things you have to be doing at the same time as something else while also making sure you keep up DPS because you are limited by time.
The problem with scripted fights from a game design point of view is that it would take time and effort to put together. Which C North aren't given and never really will be.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
Only if that's how it's scripted
For example - Fire and Ice has you heavily depending on your group. Someone moves when they're not supposed to, tank loses aggro, healer dies of an aspirin overdose... failure. Gravitar on the other hand does not have you depending on your group - everyone else can screw up repeatedly, and you can still finish the fight based on your own ability. I tend to like the second kind of setup more (the first one is kind of why I stopped playing that other MMO... or, heck, other MMOs).
Can we just stop with this? Can anyone around here make a suggestion anymore without someone else running up in a bright white samurai costume assuming a three point stance and yelling "NO! CRYPTIC CANNOT HANDLE THIS! I AS THEIR MOTHER WILL PROTECT THEM FROM YOUR IRRATIONAL CHILD LABOR ABUSES!".
Also, how do you give someone time and effort? I heard those are things you have to grow yourself.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Sorry I should of mentioned, I was only talking about end game group content here. I don't think the 1-39 content in CO is "easy" it's easier than it used to be and still fairly casual gameplay wise but it's not exactly as super mega easy as what the game ends up being at 40 especially end game 40.
Fire and Ice's scripted stuff was rather odd and could of been designed better however generally in comparison to other games as end game content goes it was rather easy. The problem is that drop rate is created stupidly. If the drop rate was rather generous on the tokens we'd all complain how easy to obtain it is and how easy the content is. If they actually made fire and ice and the other rampages harder and worked out using actual maths from the numbers various powers do / protect against to make it need a very good run from the end game players but then give a token for every completion I would of preferred it massively. Not that everyone else would of course because they would complain you are forcing builds upon people or that it isn't viable for AT's which the current content is created to be viable for still.
Time and effort = money from PWE. Something they are only given for rather specific things it seems. Call for me the next time they do a change that remotely interests me instead of adding "new" powers that totally avoid any interest. Meanwhile I'll still be stalking about here because it's funny here sometimes.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
They get paid salaries though. It's not as if PWE is throttling the electricity that goes into CN's building, or causing their computes to turn off after X hours of work, or sending guys to club them unconscious after they spend so many hours per day brainstorming and working.
Let's say I'm a billionaire. What could I buy CN that would magically make them able to do all the things other than more employees?
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Changing the critter level tables so high level critters are more potent should be easy, though it might require rebalancing a small number of recently introduced critters. Giving added powers to critters is more work, since you have to edit multiple critter template files. AI tweaks are large.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Or maybe we should make whatever suggestion we like and let them worry about the possibility. My imagination isn't on their payroll. We've gone way too far with this "they can't handle that" and "here's a suggestion, you can charge us for it!" mind set. What's next, people making rationalizations for why we're better off with bugs they say they can't fix?
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Having a salary doesn't mean you also have all the time in the world. More employees is what gets more things done. That's why Cryptic's other games have much, much larger teams. It's either small content updates at a regular pace, or large content updates with a huge gap in between. And working 20 hour days to get it done isn't an option.
Your post makes it sound like you think they fill their content quota and then take a few weeks off and screw around playing poker all day until their next content requirement starts. If all games could crank out huge content with just a handful of employees, there'd be no need for 50+ man teams.
So if you were a billionaire and wanted to give them something to do all the things, but you're harshly against more employees, I'd say develop a time machine. Or transfer their consciousness into robots that don't require food or sleep. Or, you know, live within the realm of reality and give them more butts to fill chairs with.
20 hour days? The heck are you, a slave driver? Or maybe you're trying to strawman someone else into looking like a slave driver?
Ah yes, there's the strawman. Which part of my post makes it sound like that? Is this the part where you conveniently stop responding? u_u
Exactly. It's literally just the amount of time the employees are willing to put in that determines what gets done. That'd be the point I was making.
Where did you get "harshly against more employees". Did you really imagine some harsh tone that I was writing in?
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Did you not read the part where I said 20 hour days were not an option?
My point was that with what they have, if they needed to put out twice the content, it would take about twice the time to develop it, meaning working very long days to achieve that goal. It's not an option because that's a real crappy way to live for months on end. If you want twice the content, you hire more people.
"They get paid salaries though. It's not as if PWE is throttling the electricity that goes into CN's building, or causing their computes to turn off after X hours of work, or sending guys to club them unconscious after they spend so many hours per day brainstorming and working."
Unless I'm misreading, you're saying "They get paid, so they should be able to get all the work done. It's not like they're being forced to not work by shutting down their power or being beaten unconscious."
It seems like you think that since money is being paid, a lot more work should be done in the same timeframes that we're receiving content. (Notice how I say things like "it seems" and "makes it sound like", inviting you to further explain if I'm mistaken, instead of accusing you directly. It's not a strawman argument, it's showing you what your posts read like.)
And for what it's worth, I "conveniently" stop responding when your arguments stop making sense to me, instead of going on and on ad nauseam with "no you're wrong and dumb, I'm right and smart" trying to win some ****ing contest that I have no interest in.
Okay, so you're basing this off of an assumption that they're lazy and/or unmotivated to do all the work they can. (Or perhaps some other factor that explains why they're not giving it 100% so I can preemptively dodge your "strawman" bullets.)
I just want to point something out here. Your argument is "It's literally just the amount of time the employees are willing to put in that determines what gets done." When I said, to paraphrase, that they're not just filling their content quotas and then taking a break the rest of the time, you claimed it was a strawman argument. You're smart enough to see that my "strawman argument" is basically the same thing as the point you're making, right?
No, I didn't. You came up with a scenario where you have a hell of a lot of money, but of absolutely all the things you could do with that money to get more content made, the one thing you said you would not do, is hire more employees.
So let me ask you a question, what makes you think that the Cryptic North guys are not putting in all the time they can into it?
And another question, have you ever worked in a game development environment?
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
Nevermind.
(A wonderful lady!)
I think I see the problem here (I saw it when you started talking about "twice the amount of content" which is something that hasn't been mentioned); you don't know the context of the statement, and you're responding to it in a vacuum. So here is the context:
There you go. Now that you understand the context the statement was made in, things should be much clearer and less prone to wayward interpretation.
You'll find me on many forums for f2p games including this one telling people they're wrong when they demand that people who make a free game work harder. That should go ahead and cut off any further arguments you feel the need to make where you believe we disagree on that matter.
You're misreading. Everything you typed after that point was pretty much based on that misunderstanding, so I won't respond to it.
Quit reading Biff's post as if it actually represents what I'm saying and that'll stop happening
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
Again, you're imagining that that's what I think. I don't think that. I'll go ahead and drop this quote here since you seem to have missed it
That would be the exact issue I was taking with hinkey's statement. There's really no way any of us can say that PWE is somehow limiting what CN can do, so trying to say PWE has some sort of money-based speed-limiter in place is just crazy baseless speculation.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained