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Damage bonus layers
aiqa
Posts: 2,620 Arc User
I've noticed a lot of misconceptions about damage layering. Often I see it wrongly being divided in additive or multiplicative, or this bonus is calculated before that bonus .
So to try dispel those ideas, this is how damage bonus layering in CO works.
First the this bonus is calculated before that bonus, that is completely irrelevant. When you starting damage is 500, then first there is a 75% damage bonus, and secondly a 50% damage bonus, that is exactly the same is doing the 50% bonus first and the 75% bonus second.
About bonuses being additive or multiplicative.
There are 3 damage bonus layer, all those layers are multiplicative with each other:
Like you can there are only a few things that are truly multiplicative, only ranks, role bonus and some specs. But things like offense, or severity that is often considered multiplicative bonuses are no more inherently multiplicative than damage strength. They both are multiplicative with the other layers, and additive with things that go in the same bonus layer.
So to try dispel those ideas, this is how damage bonus layering in CO works.
First the this bonus is calculated before that bonus, that is completely irrelevant. When you starting damage is 500, then first there is a 75% damage bonus, and secondly a 50% damage bonus, that is exactly the same is doing the 50% bonus first and the 75% bonus second.
About bonuses being additive or multiplicative.
There are 3 damage bonus layer, all those layers are multiplicative with each other:
- Base damage, this is where stuff like ranks, dps role bonus and a few specs go (setup and preemptive strike). All those bonuses are multiplicative. This also means you dont really have to group these in any layer, but it looks a bit cleaner doing so.
- Then we have a bonus layer where most of the bonuses spec and powers go. All the bonus numbers from stats, everything that says damage strength, most specs, all forms except mental discipline, all passives, all AO and most other powers are added together.
- Lastly we have the bonus layer that hold the damage bonus from offense, severity, certain adv (all those 2pt adv that add 30% damage to a power, and the bonus from MD) and mental discipline,and maybe a few more things. Again all those bonuses are added together to form one bonus layer.
Like you can there are only a few things that are truly multiplicative, only ranks, role bonus and some specs. But things like offense, or severity that is often considered multiplicative bonuses are no more inherently multiplicative than damage strength. They both are multiplicative with the other layers, and additive with things that go in the same bonus layer.
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"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
Glad it's of some use.
Oh right, tgm, or are there more?
/edit, switched replies.
I've been guilty of throwing around the additive/multiplicative tags too much, but I dunno a better way to quickly label how the modifier works to those that don't get the layering. Is there a better way to convey that w/o being long-winded?
Also sometimes use 'base' and 'final' differently, depending on the context. Like calling the dmg in parenthesis on SCT 'base' and the other one 'final'. Would be more accurate to say 'final before resist' and 'final'- but that labeling isn't really, uh, efficient.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
Resistance is unrelated to this. If your dps before counting resistance is say 1000, it doesn't matter if you needed 0% damage bonus or 500% damage bonus to get there, resistance will just be applied to that 1000 dps. Which of course works like damage/(1+resistance).
I usually use "base damage bonus" for the layer I placed first, "damage strength" for the layer I placed second, and "additive with severity" for the layer I placed third (since I don't know a good name for that last one).
Let me just add this bit in to avoid confusion. Rankups/role/etc. are not added together. One can classify them in the same 'layer' because they function similarly but do not add them directly for they are independent from...well everything!
2 (1)
2 is your damage after resistance. 1 is the damage before resistance.
[Combat (Self)] Gravitar deals 2986 (107298) Crushing Damage to you with Force Detonation.
I don't die, yay!
[Combat (Self)] Your Two-gun Mojo deals 4932 (3491) Piercing Damage to Test Dummy.
This was before the regenerating test dummy so I could push past 10k dps(subjective to internet issues) with a full setup on our resident immortal punching bag(but that requires patching the game and redoing all my keybindings..)
Before Resistance
((((((((Bare-Base Damage * (1+ Role Bonus{25%, 0%, -10%})) * (1+ Rankup Bonus{20%})) * (1+ Rankup Bonus{20%})) * (Variance for Power in question)) * (1+(Sum of all PassiveDamageBonuses%))) / (1 + (Sum of all PassiveDamageDebuffs%))) * (1 + (Sum of all SecondLayerDamageBonuses%)) / (1 + (Sum of all SecondLayerDamageDebuff??%))
After All Resistance
((((((((((((((Bare-Base Damage * (1+ Role Bonus{25%, 0%, -10%})) * (1+ Rankup Bonus{20%})) * (1+ Rankup Bonus{20%})) * (Variance for Power in question)) * (1+(Sum of all PassiveDamageBonuses%))) / (1 + (Sum of all PassiveDamageDebuffs%))) * (1 + (Sum of all SecondLayerDamageBonuses%)) / (1 + (Sum of all SecondLayerDamageDebuff??%)) / (1 + RedirectedForce%) * ((100% - Avoidance%) - AvoidancePenetration??%) / (1 + Defense%) / (1 + Block%) * (1 + NegativeResistanceDebuff%) - Flat Damage Reduction
Oh and Block Resistance and Defense Resistance function the same way but are actually on different layers. Negative Resistance treats them as one entity and subtracts from them until you reach negative resistance. Defense Penetration is a type of Negative Resistance that only nullifies the resistances. You need powers/specs that have the ability to push the defender into negative resistance in order to have it become a damage bonus(the 2 (1) thing)
Might as well add in that Dragon'sWrath halves the product of block resistance, defense resistance and negative resistance then adds 0.5
100% defense resistance, 250% block resistance, and 0% negative resistance would yield 7 but due to Dragon'sWrath it makes it 4.
2*3.5/1 = 7 / 2 = 3.5 + 0.5 = 4
Defense Resistance (2) * Block Resistance(3.5) / Negative Resistance (1) = 7 / Dragon's Wrath (2) = 3.5 + Dragon's Wrath (.5) = Final 'Defense' (4 which is 300% resistance)
100% defense resistance, 250% block resistance, 100% negative resistance would yield 3.5 but due to Dragon'sWrath it makes it 2.25.
2*3.5/2 = 3.5 / 2 = 1.75 + 0.5 = 2.25
Defense Resistance (2) * Block Resistance(3.5) / Negative Resistance (2) = 3.5 / Dragon's Wrath (2) = 1.75 + Dragon's Wrath (.5) = Final 'Defense' (2.25 which is 125% resistance)
- Level
- Relative Level (how your level compares to the level of your target. Affects all power effects, your energy builder produces less energy on a substantially higher level foe).
- Rank
- Role
- Crit (offense goes in this layer, as do a small number of other abilities -- some of the 30% enhancements, possibly Mental Discipline -- it used to, haven't tested recently)
- General (superstat bonuses, passives, buffs, etc)
I haven't tested most of the spec trees, they might be their own multiplier. Likewise, I haven't tested the effect of stars.Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Oh I didn't know it added 0.5, any reasons for that?
And does this mean it only really be a positive effect after 100% resistance, after all that would be 1*.5+.5=1.
..
I tested that, but I think I misunderstand what you mean.
When hitting a training dummy I get
Your Dragon's Wrath deals 1882 (2071) Slashing Damage to Regenerating Test Dummy C.
This is just 2071/1882=1.1, so exactly half of the default 20% resistance they have.
Where does the added 0.5 come from?
Not at all, it is for exactly the same reason as grouping the other stuff, to keep it clean and readable. When looking at the preemptive strike spec, cryptic explicitly calls that a base damage bonus, so by extension all similar damage bonuses (stuff that is multiplicative with every other damage bonus) is just base damage bonus.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Oh I get it, it is to offset halving the "1" in the damage/(1+resistance). I missed that one since I always thought of it as damage/(1+(resistance*.5))
Or better yet, make those 1 pt advantage so people can decide if they want to take a point from something and throw another point at a power!
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
High severity test:
Low severity test:
Statistics: Two-tailed student's T, equal variance (homoscedastic)
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(there are only a few things that we can precisely calculate, and that have any value over looking at tooltips)
We have a quite a few new powers with 30% base damage bonus advantages (annihilate, massacre, luminescent slash, etc)
You take those in stead of rank 3, which would have given 20% base damage bonus.
So with those advantages you do (13/12=1.083) 8.3% higher damage than you would do with r3.
We also have a many utility mods with a damage bonus for specific sets now.
Those are all additive with offense and severity, so to figure out how much those effect your overall damage you need keep crit and offense in mind (keep in mind this does not mean a more effective mod is actually better).
As an example, a build with 30% crit chance, 120% severity, 15% offense.
The average damage multiplier from those things would be
1+0.15+0.3*1.2=1.51
If we insert a r9 10% damage mod into that we get.
1+0.15+0.3*1.2+0.1=1.61
So the your overall damage would be (1.61/1.51=1.066) 6.6% higher.
Now if we change the crit chance to like 80% (possible with certain sets), it changes to.
1+0.15+0.7*1.2=1.99
And with the mod
1+0.15+0.7*1.2+0.1=2.09
So only a (2.09/1.99=1.050) 5% higher damage.
Or if we change the crit chance to 20% and severity to 50% we'd get.
1+0.15+0.2*0.5=1.25
And with the mod.
1+0.15+0.2*0.5+0.1=1.35
So that is a (1.35/1.25=1.08) 8% higher damage.
Or if we remove all offense from the first example.
1+0.3*1.2=1.36
And with the mod
1+0.3*1.2+0.1=1.46
So that is a (1.46/1.36=1.074) 7.4% higher damage.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!