Stealth Tank

dataweaver42

I’m looking to do a “stealth tank” dual-passive build with the goal of being able to solo as much content as possible, and I’m looking for some advice. I have in mind a Robin-like concept. What I have so far:

Talents and Super-Stats
Primary: Dexterity
Secondary: Presence, Constitution
Talents: Sureshot; Brilliant, Coordinated, Healthy Mind, Diplomatic, Negotiator, Investigator

In order for Sneak to be effective, I need to have Dex as my primary SS: I’ve tried it with Int as my primary SS, and I’ve found that in moderate to high-level Alerts, my teammates take me out of Sneak. For my secondary SSs, I’m leaning toward Constitution and Presence: Constitution because I want to be able to tank, so I need a decent reserve of HPs; Presence for the threat generation and to enhance self-heals. I’m thinking of focusing my Talents on Intelligence to reduce the cool-down times of my self-heals as much as possible.

Specializations
Dexterity: Gear Utilization, Brush It Off, Evasion, and Quick Reflexes.
Protector: Fortified Gear, Bulwark, Exhausting Strikes, Resolute.
Sentry: Fortified Gear, Twist Fate, Sentry Aura, Persevere.
Warden: Fortified Gear, Elusive, Reactive Strikes, The Best Defense
Mastery: Dexterity.

Note that I listed four Specialty Trees. I need to decide which of Protector, Sentry, and Warden to go with. I’m leaning toward Protector and Warden; but I’m not quite sure.

Powers
Energy Builder: Boomerang Toss
Level 1: Ricochet Throw
Level 6: Thundering Kicks (Floating Lotus Blossom, Crippling Challenge)
Level 8: Night Warrior (Silent Running)
Level 11: Parry (The Elusive Monk)
Level 14: Bountiful Chi Resurgence (Resurgent Reiki)
Level 17: Defiance (Force of Will)
Level 20: Inertial Dampening Field

Thundering Kicks is for the Dodge buff: between it, Parry, and my Dexterity Specializations, I’m hoping to be able to manage a decent Dodge and Avoidance, especially while using Night Warrior.

Night Warrior is there for the Sneak and alpha strike capabilities; and combined with Ricochet Throw, it allows me to bypass much of the game’s content or to one-shot it if bypassing isn’t an option.

In the same way that Night Warrior and Ricochet Throw form the core of the build’s “stealth mode”, Defiance, Inertial Dampening Field, and Bountiful Chi Resurgence form the core of the “tank mode”.

At this point, I have a rough idea of what other powers I want, but not what order I want to take them:

• Conviction (Reverence) as a second self-heal, and one that gives me an instant boost instead of a gradual HoT.
• Molecular Self-Assembly so that the self-heals are more likely to have the energy they need when they need it.
• Bolas (Nailed to the Ground) to give me some sort of crowd control capacity.
• Evasive Maneuvers with the Advantage that lets me threat-wipe, to get me out of tight spots and into stealth mode. In effect, a “panic button”. If I take this, I’m thinking of bundling its use with a switch to my stealth mode.
• Circle of Primal Dominion isn’t even close to being in-theme; but it’s just so useful when I need to stand myground against a boss.
• Sword Cyclone (Challenging Strikes, Accelerated Metabolism) to aggro groups and to clear trash mobs that I can’s avoid.
• Burning Chi Fist (Crippling Challenge?) or its single-blade or claws counterpart to provide a high-DPS single-target attack for wearing down bosses and keeping their attention on me.

Note that that’s seven powers, and I only have room for six. Which one shouldn’t I take?

More generally, are there any other changes I should consider?

flowcyto

Pres doesn't give threat gen anymore. That was changed w/ On Alert's revamp. Int would be a better SS to have for Molec Self-Assembly and cd reduction.

You'll want to fully rank up NW if ur using it a decent amount. Also, if ur going to take the dodge/avoid options in Dex PSS (which aren't that great) ya mine as well take Con PSS instead (still gearing mostly for Dex, so ur stealth is still good) better defense benefits, knock resist, and cause its Deflection scales better w/ Dex than Dex PSS's version.

If ur skipping Expose Weakness and Deadly Aim, only reason to keep Dex PSS is Dex Mastery, but Con Mastery is also good when combo'd w/ Ego Surge/NM and the TBD/AS offense-defense loop from Wardicator or Guardicator.

And if ur using 2 passives, ya mine as well make Lightning Reflexes the tank passive instead of Defiance- to take advantage of the very high flat dodge rate ya can get (can exceed 100% dodge w/ R3 LR if ya have the right powers and gear).

Ricochet Throw can clear trash really well from stealth, so if ur adding any other AoE it should be for more utility- like the dodge buff from Shuriken Storm that can also apply CS. But more AoE shouldn't really be needed w/ RT ranked up.

CoPD won't be needed for most things if ya take Con PSS for some knock resist.

IDF as the toggle will hurt ur dmg and energy gen, and doesn't scale very well; I wouldn't recommend it over FotTempest and a Rush move like Dragon Uppercut_Kick.

joybuzzerx

Last I knew, no matter how much DEX you have, you can't sneak up on Alert bosses and high level enemies (like archenemies). Is that not right?

flowcyto

joybuzzerx wrote: »

Last I knew, no matter how much DEX you have, you can't sneak up on Alert bosses and high level enemies (like archenemies). Is that not right?

For the most part, yes. Though if you are fast enough you can sometimes get the shadow strike in before the mob can start reacting- usually just when you've loaded into the area and mob AI hasn't yet auto-activated. Doesn't always work, but sometimes does.

joybuzzerx

flowcyto wrote: »

For the most part, yes. Though if you are fast enough you can sometimes get the shadow strike in before the mob can start reacting- usually just when you've loaded into the area and mob AI hasn't yet auto-activated. Doesn't always work, but sometimes does.

Okay. Just making sure Wanted to use NW just for it's Stealth aspect, though maybe I was wrong and there was some magic number to get it working. Since there isn't, I'll just continue with Quarry then.

toooldforthis

joybuzzerx wrote: »

...if there was some magic number to get it working

If someone else has aggro, stealth will hold and you can sneak up to your heart's content.

Otherwise, the rule of thumb is that legendary/cosmics can automatically see through stealth when you're at less than 50'. (At 100', different story.)

Stealth really would make a great topic for an article on the new Wiki. Not sure there's ever been a thread dedicated to it rather than occasional explanations like this or comments on NW.

dataweaver42 wrote:

I’m thinking of bundling its use with a switch to my stealth mode.

This idea and the rest of the build are a nice idea in concept, but won't work in practice, because when you switch builds in combat, you're stuck in the next build for a full minute.

The last thing you'd want to do while fighting a boss as a tank is to swap over to NW and get stuck in it for a full minute. Squishiest of the squishies.

NW can sort of work on a tank build as an alpha strike before you swap to your tank passive, but in general tanks tend to run short on powers. You're almost always better off finding something to compliment the rest of your main build instead of trying to run two builds on one toon. For sneaking through content, teleport works far better.

markhawkman

toooldforthis wrote: »

Stealth really would make a great topic for an article on the new Wiki. Not sure there's ever been a thread dedicated to it rather than occasional explanations like this or comments on NW.

Gimme the data and I'll make an article.

dataweaver42

toooldforthis wrote: »

This idea and the rest of the build are a nice idea in concept, but won't work in practice, because when you switch builds in combat, you're stuck in the next build for a full minute.

The last thing you'd want to do while fighting a boss as a tank is to swap over to NW and get stuck in it for a full minute. Squishiest of the squishies.

After spamming Thundering Kicks while using Night Warrior, I’ve been able to get my Dodge well above 100% and my Avoidance up as high as 60% — not exactly squishy. Also, squishy is relative: with Con as a SS, there’s a limit to how squishy you can be.

toooldforthis wrote: »

NW can sort of work on a tank build as an alpha strike before you swap to your tank passive, but in general tanks tend to run short on powers. You're almost always better off finding something to compliment the rest of your main build instead of trying to run two builds on one toon. For sneaking through content, teleport works far better.

Stealth mode only requires two powers: Night Warrior and Ricochet Throw; and Ricochet Throw can be incorporated into the tank mode quite easily.

toooldforthis

markhawkman wrote: »

Gimme the data and I'll make an article.

Meant more that someone could search through previous threads, as I'm not going to have time to do. More importantly, I know a decent amount about stealth mechanics, but I've not played it to the extent that others have to be comfortable using it as a basis of an article. Will be putting up some info on in the new threat thread, but it'll more relate to aggro than mechanics proper.

dataweaver42 wrote:

After spamming Thundering Kicks while using Night Warrior, I’ve been able to get my Dodge well above 100%

Are you talking on test dummies? Floating lotus blossom's dodge boost drops to 0 when you dodge an attack, so anything that has relatively quick ticks will tear you up. It's why most of us with 100% dodge tanks have incorporated CW kick and rank 3 TK, since the boost is far more stable. It's one reason I finally gave up on my master AT for boss fights, since relying on FLB just was fatal when you're dealing with something that can one shot you if you don't have dodge up.

Holding aggro with TK's DPS (plus NW's strike) would also be an issue in groups, but if you're just planning on soloing content and running alerts, not a big deal. Burning Chi Fist is actually a pretty good attack, but I suspect you're going to be stuck just spamming given the above.

If you want to use EM as a panic button, monsterdaddy has done some fun things with it. In general, MD is a much more effective and a lot easier to use, but I'm all for exotic builds.

Flowcyto's comments, especially on DEX, are definitely worth considering, along with thinking about dropping or top ticking IDF in favor of one of the MA forms. IDF is fun for trash mobs, but you'd be better off taking invuln (which does mostly the same thing) and using the power for something else, depending on if it'd fit into your concept.

I think Selphea has a 100% dodge build based on WotW. Might be worth trying to find it because it'll offer some good tips - not that you're trying to build a 100% dodge tank, but the concepts should be similar given NW.

dataweaver42

On the Evasive Maneuvers thing: the idea was that when things get hairy, I tap EM, putting distance between me and whatever's been hammering me, dumping the aggro, and temporarily putting me in stealth; switching to the stealth build lets me start Sneaking, making the stealth ongoing until such time as I'm ready to get back into the fight.

OK; here's version 2:

PowerHouse (Link to this build)

Name: Stealth Tank

Archetype: Freeform

Super Stats:
Level 6: Dexterity (Primary)
Level 10: Intelligence (Secondary)
Level 15: Constitution (Secondary)

Talents:
Level 1: Sureshot
Level 6: Brilliant
Level 9: Coordinated
Level 12: Healthy Mind
Level 15: Diplomatic
Level 18: Negotiator
Level 21: Investigator

Powers:
Level 1: Boomerang Toss
Level 1: Ricochet Throw
Level 6: Thundering Kicks (Floating Lotus Blossom, Crippling Challenge)
Level 8: Night Warrior
Level 11: Parry (Rank 2, The Elusive Monk)
Level 14: Form of the Tempest
Level 17: Dragon Kick
Level 20: Bountiful Chi Resurgence (Resurgent Reiki)
Level 23: Molecular Self-Assembly
Level 26: Lightning Reflexes (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 29: Shuriken Storm (Challenging Strikes)
Level 32: Conviction
Level 35: Focused Shot (Ballista Bolt)
Level 38:

Travel Powers:
Level 6: Athletics
Level 35: Cape Glide

Specializations:
Dexterity: Gear Utilization (3/3)
Dexterity: Brush It Off (2/2)
Dexterity: Deadly Aim (3/3)
Dexterity: Expose Weakness (2/2)
Protector: Fortified Gear (3/3)
Protector: Bulwark (2/2)
Protector: Debilitating Challenge (2/2)
Protector: Resolute (3/3)
Warden: Fortified Gear (3/3)
Warden: Elusive (2/2)
Warden: Reactive Strikes (2/2)
Warden: The Best Defense (3/3)
Mastery: Dexterity Mastery (1/1)

I’ve used this in an Alert, and had no trouble holding aggro as a Tank. There was a healer there who was doing an effectice job of keeping me healthy, so I didn't get much of a chance to test out the self-healing capabilities; but what I did manage to test in that regard worked quite well. I'm thinking that for leveling purposes, I might want to reverse Conviction and Bountiful Chi Resurgence, as the former spikes my health and has a shorter cool-down.

I did have some problems with holds and knocks, so I'm thinking of trying out the Constitution suggestion. It's also the reason why I was originally considering Defiance instead of Lightning Reflexes.

Focused Shot is an experiment I was trying, to see if I could be effective as a shadowy sniper against Alert bosses when someone else is tanking. I'm thinking of removing it and using my last two slots for Circle of Primal Dominion (again, not particularly in-theme; but useful if I need to settle in to a long slog against a Legendary or Cosmic Villain) and possibly Bolas with Nailed to the Ground: with Athletics as my primary Travel Power, I need something to bring down the occasional airborne enemy.