Building: Rimefire toon

jimhsua

Currently building. Meant to be a nemesis to my *other* DPS toon, taking the opposite elemental powers (elec/wind).

I'm building this with every expectation that I'll have to off-tank bosses/lairs/APs. Suggestions on how to arrange my powers/specs for that, while maintaining DPS appreciated. Would prefer to stick with INT specifically for the DPS / -DR, but I'll consider other specs as well.

PowerHouse (Link to this build)

Name:

Archetype: Freeform

Super Stats:
Level 6: Intelligence (Primary)
Level 10: Dexterity (Secondary)
Level 15: Constitution (Secondary)

Talents:
Level 1:
Level 6:
Level 9:
Level 12:
Level 15:
Level 18:
Level 21:

Powers:
Level 1: Throw Fire
Level 1: Ice Blast (Rank 2, Hard Frost)
Level 6: Ice Shield (Rank 2, Frigid Air)
Level 8: Conviction (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 11: Molecular Self-Assembly
Level 14: Quarry (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 17: Concentration
Level 20: Unbreakable (Rank 2)
Level 23: Ego Surge (Rank 2, Nimble Mind)
Level 26: Fire Snake (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 29: Masterful Dodge
Level 32: Avalanche (Rank 2, Serrated Shards)
Level 35: Rimefire Burst (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 38: Flashfire

Travel Powers:
Level 6: Flight (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 35: Teleportation

Specializations:
Intelligence: Enlightened (3/3)
Intelligence: Tactician (2/2)
Intelligence: Detect Vulnerability (3/3)
Intelligence: Expertise (2/2)
Warden: Fortified Gear (3/3)
Warden: Ruthless (2/2)
Warden: Elusive (2/2)
Warden: The Best Defense (3/3)
Vindicator: Aggressive Stance (2/2)
Vindicator: Merciless (3/3)
Vindicator: Focused Strikes (3/3)
Vindicator: Modified Gear (2/2)
Mastery: Intelligence Mastery (1/1)

flowcyto

Well I assume ya may have run into Kaiz's build posted here:
http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=3847451&postcount=7

Ur build looks pretty much like that, though. So no real other input need I guess :x

jimhsua

Yea, let's just say that was a strong influence (as,well as a couple of other threads about ice and DPS). This thread though will be more of a data dump as I compare various builds.

monsterdaddy

I highly recommend Nanobot Swarm R3 with all Rimefire builds. Nothing says crazy DPS more than 3 critical hit Rimefires within 5 seconds. I'd drop your block for this. Plus Nanobot Swarm will help your survivability too.

I've used Avalanche and I'm not a big fan of this power -- decent damage but eats up a lot of energy. You could try Ice Sheathe R2 with Supercooled and just tap out Ice Blasts. With every attacker automatically getting chilled, it may be one tap per minion. Note: I used a rapid fire button on Ice Blast builds so it will auto-target the next target when you defeat one.

Ice Sheath is also nice when you want to get Cold Snap for a fully charged Ice Blast alpha.

Jim, if you are saving up some G's, I'd recommend dropping INT PSS and buying a Depleted Uranium Core and use either DEX or STR PSS. (Basically, I think you're gonna love your Rimefire toon so invest in it.) Expose Weakness is worth 10% so that already makes up for some loss of Detect Vulnerability.

Hope you try all these options out on PTS, would love to see what you come up with. You will need very long testing times though, Rimefire builds have a pretty wide distribution in my experience. I have tested Flashfire vs. Mental Storm and MS just keeps coming up on top every time and it really isn't close.

jimhsua

Thanks for the tips. At sub lvl-40, energy management currently is total crap, but (as I've experienced so often) I expect that to tighten up at 40. (All the gear is ready to go, as always).

As for the DUC ... I have an open bid for 1500g if anyone wants to fill it. May consider going a little bit higher, but not by much.

toooldforthis

One thing to keep in mind: the differential between a Dex-DUC rimefire build versus a Int one isn't going to be as great as it looks.

That's because once you start getting to high (5k+ sustained DPS) levels, there are only about 10 or so players who both regularly play rampages and have tanks capable of holding aggro against them.

Thus, you'll often end up not getting anywhere close to your theoretical max because you're blocking and healing a bunch - so the differential between a DUC and an INT build looks a lot bigger on paper than it does in practice.

flowcyto

^ lotsa my dps FFs have palliate/absolve for that reason :x

But yeah, if ur tight on funds, I'd prob just go the DUC-less route w/ Int. Int PSS means energy is also even easier to manage- ya can pretty much pump Int up, stack CDR on gear, and ignore most cost discount rating by lvl 40.

kaiserin

Updated that build on that page as it's changed a little since posted.

I actually find flashfire to be a determent since it will continuously apply clinging flames. This causes problems when using Rimefire as it removes chill/clinging, and in the brief time you're waiting to recast Rimefire to reapply those effects clinging flames will reapply itself, making Rimefire not apply chill. When running Gravs last night a couple people were using it and it became a pain to keep chilled up.

With a nice tank I've hit shy of 10k dps before in a Gravitar. Generally though those aren't around and you'll be dropped to 5-6k.

jimhsua

Yay, thanks for the updates. Right now though, prob my favorite power for managing threat are radiant sigils .... Had some pretty hilarious gravs last night where I was off-tank for nearly half the thing with no way that she could find me. Will definitely have to find some way to fit that in.

jimhsua

I always try rampage runs before lvl40 to get a feel for the character, so here's a grav run at lvl35, with only nem gear.


This already does way more damage than any other sub 40 that I've taken to grav, ever.

jimhsua

Revised build.

PowerHouse (Link to this build)

Name: Xyr'nor'vala

Archetype: Freeform

Super Stats:
Level 6: Dexterity (Primary)
Level 10: Intelligence (Secondary)
Level 15: Constitution (Secondary)

Talents:
Level 1: The Glacier
Level 6: Coordinated
Level 9: Healthy Mind
Level 12: Acrobat
Level 15: Covert Ops Training
Level 18: Boundless Reserves
Level 21: Investigator

Powers:
Level 1: Boomerang Toss
Level 1: Concentration
Level 6: Molecular Self-Assembly
Level 8: Quarry (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 11: Ice Blast (Rank 2, Hard Frost)
Level 14: Rimefire Burst (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 17: Conviction (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 20: Ego Surge (Rank 2, Nimble Mind)
Level 23: Unbreakable (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 26: Fire Snake (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 29: Sigils of Radiant Sanctuary
Level 32: Mental Storm (Rank 2)
Level 35: Ascension
Level 38: Frost Breath (Rank 2, Frost Bite)

Travel Powers:
Level 6: Flight (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 35: Teleportation

Specializations:
Dexterity: Combat Training (3/3)
Dexterity: Gear Utilization (2/3)
Dexterity: Deadly Aim (3/3)
Dexterity: Expose Weakness (2/2)
Guardian: Fortified Gear (3/3)
Guardian: Ruthless (2/2)
Guardian: Find the Mark (2/3)
Guardian: The Best Defense (3/3)
Vindicator: Aggressive Stance (2/2)
Vindicator: Merciless (3/3)
Vindicator: Focused Strikes (3/3)
Vindicator: Modified Gear (2/2)
Mastery: Dexterity Mastery (1/1)

Explanations:

• Boomerang Toss required for power ordering to work, I don't use EB anyways
• Reordered AD, removed block, add sigils (really useful, in my experience)
• Avalanche was annoying to use. Frost breath w/ the adv is useful for quickly chilling a cone, and does OK-ish damage.

R3 for unbreakable could probably be traded to R3 of Mental Storm. With stealth buffs, I actually use Unbreakable rarely, if ever. Though lairs still really hurt.

I set up the following test conditions:

Gear:

Heroic Precision w/ Impact (for DEX) or Heroic Piercing w/ Gamblers (for INT, EGO)
Heroic Breastplate of Greater Health w/ Impact
Legion's Helmet of Speed w/ Impact

+20 CON/Crit secondary offense
Ameliorating Bracers
Hospitable Eyepiece

Specs: Guard/Vind

DEX/INT/CON, 2x CON, 4x INT, 3/3 Combat T, 2/3 Gear U, 3/3 Deadly Aim, 2/2 Expose W.

Note DPS is not exactly comparable due to variation in combatlog start/stop times. Look at average hits for a better idea.




EGO/INT/CON, 2x CON, 2x EGO, 2x INT, 2/2 Force of W, 1/3 Insight, 2/2 Aggression, 3/3 Follow T, 2/3 6th sense




--continued--

jimhsua

INT/DEX/CON, 2x CON, 2x DEX, 2x INT (this run did not include mental storm), 3/3 Enlightened, 2/2 Tactician, 3/3 Detect vuln, 2/2 Expertise




Going by this data, hard frost with DEX/INT/CON does about 8-10% more damage than INT/DEX/CON, and around 6-8% more than EGO/INT/CON. On the other hand, the EGO build has about 14% more defense (56% to 70% or so). All 3 builds did not have problems w/ energy mgmt, if I get the sequence right.

I'm scared to see what this build can do with Justice and DUCs ... *shudders*

monsterdaddy

Try a DEX PSS run with Nanobot Swarm instead of Frost Breath. Curious to see how that works. My opening is, Ego Surge, Rimefire, Firesnake, Mental Storm, Nanobot Swarm, Firesnake, Rimefire (0 cd), Rimefire -- Ice Blasts when everything else is in cd. Nanobot Swarm does take practice though to time right.

selphea

One thing that makes me curious is that the Int build should be critting more often. The crit chance difference between Int and Dex seems to be only 1-3% but it should be closer to 5%.

But that said, Int wouldn't be the best PSS for this build as Detect Vuln doesn't work with Mental Storm.

flowcyto

Nice analysis, jim, and thanks for running some tests.

selphea wrote: »

One thing that makes me curious is that the Int build should be critting more often. The crit chance difference between Int and Dex seems to be only 1-3% but it should be closer to 5%.

But that said, Int wouldn't be the best PSS for this build as Detect Vuln doesn't work with Mental Storm.

Well, it was a 2.5 min parse, so crit could have def been more variable due to that.

Interesting bit about Mental Storm and Detect Invuln- I guess that's because it has the innate -resist built in already? (and that will put most resistances into the negative as is)

helbjorn

Jim - I'm pretty sure Kaiserin already demonstrated this type build would do at least 8k. For all intents and purposes your builds are identical aside from gear. I don't believe he used legacy devices on those parses, either.

Like you, I find it interesting to see what the pimped out builds will do, but I'm more interested in what the average player (like me) can expect to do with them with easily accessible Everyman gear. Heroics and Vigilante are about the best stuff my characters will ever see.

jimhsua

Well, the main finding of that testing was to discover that even with the -% resist on INT, the loss of crit severity doesn't make up for the DPS loss from switching DEX. Since both builds have equal survivability, DEX was the choice to go, pimped out gear or no, at least here. EGO is the next obvious survivability/DPS tradeoff, and STR after that.

I do have a *much* better understanding of the primary stat trees now, after build testing, reading blogs (thank you Selphea for those guides!), and looking at other builds.

As far as kaiz's build ... well, there are only so many ways to build a rimefire toon, and two of the superstats (INT and CON) are basically set in stone. That said, minor alterations like adding the sigils makes a heck of a lot of difference in survivability with poorer groups (like, all alerts).

selphea

flowcyto wrote: »

Nice analysis, jim, and thanks for running some tests.


Well, it was a 2.5 min parse, so crit could have def been more variable due to that.

Interesting bit about Mental Storm and Detect Invuln- I guess that's because it has the innate -resist built in already? (and that will put most resistances into the negative as is)

Actually it's more like Def Pen just doesn't work with DoTs or summoned hits like Rico Throw/Throwing Blades period

flowcyto

selphea wrote: »

Actually it's more like Def Pen just doesn't work with DoTs or summoned hits like Rico Throw/Throwing Blades period

I suspect that for summoned entities like dust devil, since that makes some sense- but not for direct DoTs. Huh, that's weird.. doesn't strike me as how it should be.

Also, doesn't work w/ RT or Throwing Blades? That also is strange. Perhaps it has to do w/ them being newer powers, and the DUC being an older item?

pantagruel01

selphea wrote: »

Actually it's more like Def Pen just doesn't work with DoTs or summoned hits like Rico Throw/Throwing Blades period

It's fairly easy to test by looking at combat logs. I recall it not working with a bunch of things, but I don't have the list right now.

selphea

flowcyto wrote: »

I suspect that for summoned entities like dust devil, since that makes some sense- but not for direct DoTs. Huh, that's weird.. doesn't strike me as how it should be.

Also, doesn't work w/ RT or Throwing Blades? That also is strange. Perhaps it has to do w/ them being newer powers, and the DUC being an older item?

Probably has to do with how the DoT code was written. I'm speculating here based on how DoTs like Hex behave when resolving crits. They either crit on all hits or don't crit at all. That means the code for DoT damage is different from direct attacks. Def Pen is a relatively new stat - I don't think it existed before On Alert, so when they updated direct damage for Def Pen they may have forgotten about DoTs.

As for RT and Throwing Blades, it's because the damage portion of those attacks don't come from the power itself. When you use Throwing Blades it shows up in the combat log as "Boomerang Cone", which means the attack does its own attack. And it works like a DoT too - either all hits crit or none crit. I have no idea why they were written in such a roundabout way but there you go

jimhsua

So from the discussion above, I assume something like strafing run also doesn't work with def pen, but (say) rimefire does?

(Very useful finding BTW, I just never explored -% def before, and/or never got the chance to afford a DUC)

pantagruel01

jimhsua wrote: »

So from the discussion above, I assume something like strafing run also doesn't work with def pen, but (say) rimefire does?

Strafing run does not; I've never tested rimefire.

I assume you know how to check in the combat tab?

jimhsua

pantagruel01 wrote: »

Strafing run does not; I've never tested rimefire.

I assume you know how to check in the combat tab?

Checked; rimefire does work with at least the INT Def -% (max -22% with fire snake). The confusing thing is that clinging flames and serpentine fire also work?

pantagruel01

I wonder if defense penetration works on the damage you to do to yourself (with, say, sonic device).

jimhsua

pantagruel01 wrote: »

I wonder if defense penetration works on the damage you to do to yourself (with, say, sonic device).

To the powerhouse ... for SCIENCE! (I'm not at a computer right now, so someone will have to test that ... )

flowcyto

selphea wrote: »

Probably has to do with how the DoT code was written. I'm speculating here based on how DoTs like Hex behave when resolving crits. They either crit on all hits or don't crit at all. That means the code for DoT damage is different from direct attacks. Def Pen is a relatively new stat - I don't think it existed before On Alert, so when they updated direct damage for Def Pen they may have forgotten about DoTs.

That makes some sense. I wasn't aware of how recent defense pen was an effect, but yeah that could explain some of it.

As for RT and Throwing Blades, it's because the damage portion of those attacks don't come from the power itself. When you use Throwing Blades it shows up in the combat log as "Boomerang Cone", which means the attack does its own attack. And it works like a DoT too - either all hits crit or none crit. I have no idea why they were written in such a roundabout way but there you go

I did always wonder why the damage portion itself seemed a bit delayed for both of those spells (TBs especially). I guess the delay would be explained if they had to be 'summoned' to each target hit. Yeah, very odd way to code those powers- and they don't really behave intuitively w/ spec options either.

jimhsua

First Andrith run. Kinda rough, and died once to the adds at the end, but it was done.



With more practice this should be passable. Not too interested in running elite though; no rewards for the pain. Vik however is really, really unsuited for this build; no concentration stacks because I'm standing too close with the spam, and standing too far is asking for a painful death in lava. Hyrg rushing though works well.

Hm, devices. Maybe I can pick up some Ice Grenades or whatnot.

jimhsua

Oh, and go ahead with the off-topic discussions. I don't mind them; my threads always draw a fair amount of tangential discussion, for whatever reason.

pantagruel01

jimhsua wrote: »

no concentration stacks because I'm standing too close with the spam, and standing too far is asking for a painful death in lava.

Use partial maintains of avalanche? Maintains past 2s or something proc concentration.

monsterdaddy

Half charged Ice Blasts will work, better if you have Ice Sheath for Cold Snap buff.

jimhsua

Did some testing on nanobot swarm; so far, I'm still not convinced, though I recognize user ability is one factor. (Note that my DPS has gone up significantly from before, both because of better gear (2 pieces of justice) and improved user skill).

No nanobot swarm:




Nanobot swarm:




While I can appreciate that nanobot swarm probably has tremendous alpha spike potential, aligning the cooldowns for NS and rimefire while everything else is going on (getting shot at, etc) is ... well, problematic. Appreciate more testing, however.