Proves that, in one instance, powers were nerfed to a level that's generally agreed to have been overdoing it. Does not prove that nerfs are bad. Does not even prove that that nerf was bad - personally, I'll agree that it was, but that's a subjective opinion, which I cannot support with objective facts.
Objectively any content balanced for characters not using double AD's will be too easy for characters who are using double AD's. Too easy to the point of not making any sense in playing through it.
Objectively any content balanced to be difficult and challenging for characters who are using double AD's will be barely playable for characters not using them.
Objectively, it will not be possible to produce content for both "groups".
And, finally, producing content hard enough for double AD's will pretty much force other builds into the same strategy.
And this will, objectively, harm builds variety.
It really doesn't takes rocket science to see why power creep and lack of balance are harmful for CO.
I've been watching games sicne the NES era. Seen the rise of the entire industry.Not once seen nerfs that weren't met with vicious, alienating vitriol -and that's the ones that were needed. Two years later people still ***** about the hammer that fell on the COnference Call+Bee combo, for example.
You know what those people ******** don't do? Actually quit. There may be people who quit because of specific nerfs, but they're usually silent. Most people seem to quit games because the game becomes boring, and 'lack of challenge' is one type of boring.
We all know the code is a mess. We all know tinkering with it has caused horrible side-effects. This is not a subjective opinion - the need for nerfing things currently is. Until you can offer concrete, objective reasons that the risks of pissed off players and bad sid effects are worth chancing, all the cries of "not nice" and counterarguments of subjective nature are useless and irrelevant I'm afraid
Nerf-herding is the equivalent of calling someone a douchebag or stupid. You know, name calling. That was the point.
There have been pretty damn good reason given by several people. Brushing them aside as if they weren't written down for your reading displeasure doesn't mean they aren't here. It also hypocritical that you are demanding the opposing view to poney up things that you can't do for your own argument.
Except I did. I pointed out two times when demanded nerfs caused harm to the game. You've yet to provide a single one to rebut that that isn't completely subjective.
Examples of places where you think a nerf made a game worse, does not provide objective proof of all nerfs being harmful to games. Indeed, it doesn't even provide objective proof that that particular nerf was harmful - it merely tells us that you, personally, didn't like the result.
OK first off they wont ever make content balanced against free form potential, it would simply kill the game for ATs, keep in mind many still to this day often frequent these forums complaining about the lack of mainly self healing on ATs.
So trying to say well hey they need to nerf things because this thing if it exist will be the new benchmark they make content held up to is beyind silly.
No content in this game honestly should be very hard even on the hardest dif because of free forming.
We see issues oft brought up about people wanting to remain true to a given concept to the point of self gimping also complain often about wanting the game to be catered to concept builds and their limits, and let the free formers have their way, which is frankly what I agree with.
This isnt a typical MMO, its really about playing in your own little bubble and occasionally teaming up with others. In a game with one of the widest gaps in possible power potential of player characters.
In such a game it is not even about comparative powers being balanced, because in general no 2 characters will ever be truly balanced unless built to some set of unwritten guidelines
and guess what that has been the rule in CO since launch, since day one people where posting basics like never take more then 3 attack powers, always have at least one of each kind of heal, have multiple layers of defenses etc.
We have 4 total ADs, 1 of which is very niche specifically aimed at PFF users. 1 is a spot heal, and then 2 that provide for forms of damage mitigation in a more general sense.
Nor is it some kind of news flash that some powers are solid without any ranking or advantages, and some need development to be not merely viable but enjoyable.
All this thread sadly boils down to, is those who dont want to be seen as simple flavor builds for fun want those who optimize held down. Its the crab in a bucket mentality at its most blatant.
People have since launch made and played builds so far up the spectrum there was never any chance the content could hope to offer them challenge. It wasnt a flaw, so much as offering players the choice of being a batman or a kryptonian.
Many games dont have that kryptonian peak to choose from the options of, here we do, why is it some think that is somekind of sin is beyond me.
So lets sum this up
They are not going to balance future content around Free Form power potential, but rather the weakest of their own ATs, that is just a given.
That follows then with the fact that people using Free Forms, and especially optimal free forms will never know challenge in this games content, which is fine and expected both by devs, and by the players who choose to meta game to make the most of their builds and avoid any stress when trying to play through the content.
It then leaves those who honestly should not care, the RP concept builders with the issue they really cant stand, that their concepts who are suppose to typically be unbeatable gods, are in fact usually terribly designed with often far to many redundant attack powers they like to have to be flashy in RP story times feeling all butt hurt because they are in fact closer to the side kicks in the power spectrum of things, by their own choices, and then want the option to be more taken away from others.
People where soloing cosmics before the first month of the game. Being a 40 who can solo a cosmic, compared to a 40 who cant even solo something like Tellys tower is a huge gap, one that has and will always exist.
Free form games are far more about theory crafting characters then anything else, or they wouldnt bother with being free form in the first place.
Examples of places where you think a nerf made a game worse, does not provide objective proof of all nerfs being harmful to games. Indeed, it doesn't even provide objective proof that that particular nerf was harmful - it merely tells us that you, personally, didn't like the result.
except in the case of champions it is objective fact that starting with the launch day fiasco, and pretty much every time since, every effort to balance things has resulted in greater breaks, and huge gaping losses to the player base.
Nothing about this threads topic is really worth the pages we have had going on, its just another oh I dont like this thing I dont use on my build and want all builds who use it broken so mine becomes better.
That is this thread, thats its whole point, its entirety for being, its destiny the moment the first letter was typed.
If you cant find a way to take down a build, its not their build that is ever the issue, but your own. If your batman cant find a way to take down superman, he wasnt batman just some wannabe.
That is quite a lot of assumption on the intend of devs and players, and misinformation.
And luckily its proved wrong by a lot of nerfs to powers, and items that have made the game much better. The crit/dodge changes made the game a lot better. Changing imbue has made the game a lot better. Nerfing gravity pulse and plasma beam has made the game better. Nerfing revitalize has made the game better. Changes to legacy devices have made the game better. Nerfs to backup devices have made the game better.
With such a good track record, it is not strange people asking for more things to be brought in line with the rest of the game.
The issue is Masterful Dodge paired with Unbreakable.
Which is only an issue because of previous nerfs. For example in PvP it wouldnt be an issue if they hadnt thrown out crafting or nerfed the old arms lines neutralization grenade into worthlessness.
Nor if they hadnt nerfed the scything blade/swallow tail cut bleed into worthlessness, ok that is abit strong it wasnt worthless but it did get nerfed into pointless to take on any free form build and only remotely useful on the Blade AT.
Or what about making it so soldier type mobs all carry a old school neut grenade on a lengthy cool down, allowing groups of otherwise trivial trash be able to slow down the onslaught of the titans they face.
See its not the combo that is the issue, as always its the lack of counters, in this case ones we once had that where rightly feared because they could threaten all builds from the gimp to the gawd equally. Guess what it was the gawds whod ***** and moan the most about things that hurt their toons supposed superiority.
If our CC is largely worthless against each other, then its always only going to be a DPS arms race in pvp, and in pve even giving a thought to challenging free forms is pointless. You cant challenge them with out making the game pointless to suffer through for most of the ATs.
That is quite a lot of assumption on the intend of devs and players, and misinformation.
And luckily its proved wrong by a lot of nerfs to powers, and items that have made the game much better. The crit/dodge changes made the game a lot better. Changing imbue has made the game a lot better. Nerfing gravity pulse and plasma beam has made the game better. Nerfing revitalize has made the game better. Changes to legacy devices have made the game better. Nerfs to backup devices have made the game better.
With such a good track record, it is not strange people asking for more things to be brought in line with the rest of the game.
really because of every thing you list not one thing was so much better that it brought about a new era of life and activity to this game.
In fact I know many who left the game over things like the imbue changes, who now happily play many other games.
Nor do any supposed good nerfs hold any weight or even warrant being mentioned as long as the ruining of powers like Eye Beams and Mini Mines hold true. those where some of the first victims to this QQ over other builds power potential.
I knew a few in the first months who loved Eye Beams, loved them so much it was their only attack power in their build, and where built around the concept of being a cyclops style optic blaster. It was in fact a popular long wanted thing from City Of, with eye beam powers there all being low to moderate dmg early attacks.
It was due to this that many had come from CoH to make those optic blasters here, only to do a great job of it and make Eye Beams become noticed and the misinformed who saw but did not understand shout out for nerf to it, ofcourse the power got ruined, but all the tricks they had used to make it great still worked, so some simply changed the base power, but many more went back to City Of since their entire reason for giving CO a try had been a bait and switch quickly stolen out from under them.
Understand until they actually fix and make truly not just viable but enjoyable to use versions of these 2 powers they broke, any and every other argument for a positive aspect of nerfing is invalidated.
So ask for those 2 to be fixed and then you might have some actual ground to stand upon in this debate, until then you simply do not.
You see this is the reality, that their earlier actions have a spill over effect that only makes even their best efforts turn to shiite. That they must first fix that which was broken by themselves before trying to fix anything that came after.
Cryptic North must first undue the sins of their father, before they can step out of the shadow and be seen as the man they truly wish to be.
So
EYE Beams and Mini Mines MUST be fixed before any other example of a positive nerf can even be brought up and given any level of credibility.
That is quite a lot of assumption on the intend of devs and players, and misinformation.
And luckily its proved wrong by a lot of nerfs to powers, and items that have made the game much better. The crit/dodge changes made the game a lot better. Changing imbue has made the game a lot better. Nerfing gravity pulse and plasma beam has made the game better. Nerfing revitalize has made the game better. Changes to legacy devices have made the game better. Nerfs to backup devices have made the game better.
With such a good track record, it is not strange people asking for more things to be brought in line with the rest of the game.
and really what good track record? the game has literally been one endless spiral down. Its not to this day half as fun a game to play as it was in say the open beta weekend just before it went live. The game as it has been since it went live has been and still is to this day an inferior product compared to what was shown to people during beta.
Infact CO is among the only games I can think of that significantly got worse after its beta period.
Then again I and many others frequently laugh at CO as being one of the longest running pay to play test in beta games we have ever seen.
Could the game be good, sure it could, has it ever been? nope, will it ever be? not bloody likely. Do I hope it will? Well its that flicker of hope that keeps me keeping tabs. Its my lack of faith in those that hold the power over the object of my hope that keeps me yelling at the skies hoping one day the powers that be will answer my cries.
You may disagree, but these tunings did change the game for the better.
How easy it was to stack dodge on every build was completely out of whack.
Gravity pulse and plasma beam were beyond any control.
Legacy devices were joke both in PvE and PvP and had to be limited somehow.
Backup devices also were a bit overpowered.
The only thing dubious was that said nerfs were introduced not soon enough after introducing related items.
Funny how many people here thinks that CO is some kind of special snowflake not subject to the same reality as any other mmo under the sun and does not need to at least try to be balanced... When even CoH/V went that route at least once.
Problem is, all you have to offer are also only your subjective opinions, but you demand from everyone to take them as facts.
Thing is, I can recall each and every topic about all mentioned balance changed and said topics weren't filled only with protests. It's not like entire playerbase is on the one position.
F: Umm,because, frankly, it is. It is a special snowflake unique from pretty much every other single MMO, in a very notable number of very intrinsic ways.
Following its own special route regarding balance did not turn very well for CO, though.
Seems like being a special snowflake not always works in practice.
Yet most every attempt at "rebalancing" has ended in disaster, as has been pointed out.
The "most every" is a bit subjective term here, reading through the etire topic.
Can't say I saw purely objective and non-opinion-based proof against the suggestion either.
The closest thing approaching it is maybe crowd control.
And then there's the thing when each bit of new content is introduced there are always cries for making it more challenging, followed by equally loud cries for not making it more difficult for everyone.
Which is precisely the effect of a lack of balancing.
I'm sorry, but those who were pointing at the need of balance corrections did provide reasoning.
It just breaks older content and makes balancing a new one impossible.
The counterarguments were more in line with "no because no, PvE doesn't matter."
No the counterpoints where
1: In a free form game like this theory crafting is itself the main game that most play. Hence the huge number of open altaholics in this game.
2: Due to ATs even existing, and inherently limited compared to the most optimal free form builds especially the ATs lacking self healing, they can never build content to challenge optimal min maxxed free forms while being playable by ATs.
3: Even within free form builds, the potential character power gap is huge, infact impossible to plan content around the wide margin, and for a casual niche game like CO catering to the larger casual playerbase primarily composed of ATs while letting the free form vets pwn is the only practical option.
4: unless they wish to remove aspects of free form like creating an auto granted slot for an AO, an AD, a passive defense, etc then there is no point to trying to reign in free form builds and out right punishing a portion of theory crafters who inherently strive to create cosmic solo killer builds only drives those type away when making such is infact one of the cornerstones of playing in a super hero genre.
5: When each persons main goal is their own power, there are two ways to enjoy the game, live and let live, by letting each person enjoy the game however they wish, and trying to tear down others so they themselves feel empowered. This is not one giant fish bowel we all share, the city isnt crawling with heroes, for each person there really is in their personal story one hero, and maybe a few side kicks. This is a city of individuals each meant to be able to single handedly save the world. while content should challenge the B team ATs, and the minor league front liners, in the end even the biggest and baddest in DC really dont last that long against superman if he is full throttle on them, something so rare, when witnessed it is enough to make batmans fingers itch for the kryptonite in his belt.
Name calling isn't about hurting people's feelings, it's about no one ever taking you seriously. This is not a court of law. No one committed a crime. There is no "nerf the world" cult or conspiracy. In fact, most of the people asking for certain things to be nerfed tend to support other things being buffed. Which is pretty reasonable VS flipping out when someone suggests a nerf.
1: In a free form game like this theory crafting is itself the main game that most play. Hence the huge number of open altaholics in this game.
This has nothing to do with wanting or not wanting game balance, nerfs, buffs, challenge, or anything in this post.
2: Due to ATs even existing, and inherently limited compared to the most optimal free form builds especially the ATs lacking self healing, they can never build content to challenge optimal min maxxed free forms while being playable by ATs.
3: Even within free form builds, the potential character power gap is huge, infact impossible to plan content around the wide margin, and for a casual niche game like CO catering to the larger casual playerbase primarily composed of ATs while letting the free form vets pwn is the only practical option.
Having a base line that all powers were balanced around would make the gap much smaller and making challenging content even for FFs easier to do. As someone who plays with ATs, this game would need the difficulty ramped up out the wazoo before it became too hard for ATs.
4: unless they wish to remove aspects of free form like creating an auto granted slot for an AO, an AD, a passive defense, etc then there is no point to trying to reign in free form builds and out right punishing a portion of theory crafters who inherently strive to create cosmic solo killer builds only drives those type away when making such is infact one of the cornerstones of playing in a super hero genre.
How does balancing powers punish theory crafting? If anything, making more things viable and attractive would increase the amount of theory crafting because there are more options to consider. People were making toons that could solo 5 man content before perma ADs were a thing. Hell, they were doing it before the major buff that was OnAlert.
5: When each persons main goal is their own power, there are two ways to enjoy the game, live and let live, by letting each person enjoy the game however they wish, and trying to tear down others so they themselves feel empowered. This is not one giant fish bowel we all share, the city isnt crawling with heroes, for each person there really is in their personal story one hero, and maybe a few side kicks. This is a city of individuals each meant to be able to single handedly save the world. while content should challenge the B team ATs, and the minor league front liners, in the end even the biggest and baddest in DC really dont last that long against superman if he is full throttle on them, something so rare, when witnessed it is enough to make batmans fingers itch for the kryptonite in his belt.
I don't know what your point is in this paragraph.
Balancing powers is much more reasonable than buffing everything. People are unhappy with how easy this game is even for ATs right now. Difficulty comes up as a topic every other week. Cryptic is and will make content more challenging, but if they only buff powers instead of balancing them, they will just end up with a huge amount of content that sucks because it can be blown through with a rank 1 EB that they need to revamp. That sounds like a crap load of work. Why would you ask the devs to put themselves in that position?
When you are talking about game balance and such, EVERYTHING will be subjective. To demand only completely objective analysis and responses is ludicrous. Being subjective does not make a person's arguments moot.
Second, game balance.
Before coming to CO, I used to be a DM on a Neverwinter Nights "persistent world" server. The server has rules and scripts to keep character levels to top off at around 15, and magic items from being too powerful. Even with that, it was always tough as a DM to run an adventure that was challenging enough for players at the upper levels. It became even harder when you'd have a group with varying levels (being an RP server, it was very likely that you could have a level 5 hanging around a level 15).
There were certain spells that were practically an "I win" button for the player using them. This made things less fun for everybody. No challenge for the caster of the spell. Exploiting the spell on pre-loaded spawns to farm for XP and loot (upsetting power levels more and upsetting the game's economy). The solution could not be "make other spells just as powerful". That doesn't solve what's wrong, and just makes it worse (even less challenge, more XP for levels and more loot for gold). We had to adjust the overperforming spells.
And it may not be a court of law, but the principle remains. "I think this is too powerful", even supported by possible scenariosfrom unrelated games, is not enough of a reason .... again, were this "CC+Bee" level as an issue, I'd not be protesting.
Wait, isn't that another game you've been using as a comparison? Why are you allowed to support your opinion with other games but no one else is?
If you are so insistent on "challenge".. self-impose it. Play an AT. Play with sub-par gear. You can challenge yourself just fine.. without screwing up things other people enjoy to enforce your paradigm of "the right kind of fun" on others. You can make challenge more prominent for yourselves with "easy" content; the same does not hold true in reverse to nearly the same degree.
This is the equivalent of saying "learn2play" and no one takes that seriously either.
Hey, who remembers become devices? You know, the ones like Black Talon, Vampire, and Wolf that were pretty good before OnAlert? You know how they cost, what, $3 less than a premium AT? And now totally suck? I mean, worse than any of the free ATs? How there is no reason to take them into Alerts because that content is a big step up in difficulty? Content more suited to a super buffed player? Content that is actually more challenging than the rest of the game?
That's how much power creep OnAlert introduced in one fell swoop. Good Becomes are now trash. Sounds like one hell of an over buff that ruined an aspect of the game that people are expected to pay for. Not only did this huge buff ruin part of the game for Silver players that wanted an alternative to their AT, but to theme players that wanted to be shapeshifters or have an alternative to their FF.
See, small world,I was a GM/DM on an NWN server too, that strived (idiotically, in their case) to maintain a "low-magic" feel.
So small weapon pools, harsh restrictions, and so forth.
It made playing anything but a caster ridiculously pointless in the end, because of the imbalances that even weakened, the spells caused because of the ill-conceieved foolishness of "balance hunting". It was trying to bring something that didn't fit - "Low magic" there and "mediocrity through balance" here - and wrecked the experience.
By the way and entirely off topic - it sounds more like an issue with people who don't know/are too lazy to replace standard NWN classes and spell lists with custom ones and are trying to run low power DnD campaign with standard set of rules.
That's not an issue with low magic setting at all, more like a failed execution.
When you are talking about game balance and such, EVERYTHING will be subjective. To demand only completely objective analysis and responses is ludicrous. Being subjective does not make a person's arguments moot.
Second, game balance.
Before coming to CO, I used to be a DM on a Neverwinter Nights "persistent world" server. The server has rules and scripts to keep character levels to top off at around 15, and magic items from being too powerful. Even with that, it was always tough as a DM to run an adventure that was challenging enough for players at the upper levels. It became even harder when you'd have a group with varying levels (being an RP server, it was very likely that you could have a level 5 hanging around a level 15).
There were certain spells that were practically an "I win" button for the player using them. This made things less fun for everybody. No challenge for the caster of the spell. Exploiting the spell on pre-loaded spawns to farm for XP and loot (upsetting power levels more and upsetting the game's economy). The solution could not be "make other spells just as powerful". That doesn't solve what's wrong, and just makes it worse (even less challenge, more XP for levels and more loot for gold). We had to adjust the overperforming spells.
OH ok you want to throw down using 3E + D&D as your bckground. Well Ive DMd for more then a decade both RPGA official games at cons, and with many a table top group experiencing so many falvors of house rules it is astounding more so to see how similar such rules can be when made by groups on the other side of the country or even from another country all together.
But as is pointed out immediatly by another, especially in 3E D&D but in all versions actually, without a heavy magic item loot setting, warrior classes ALWAYS fall behind casters, starting at lvl 5 when spells like fire ball come into play, and by the time someone can access an insta kill spell, like say simple phantasm killer will wreck most equal level players and those things that challenge them. Especially if the caster smartly focussed on his spell casting stat for optimal DCs for his spells
And personally I only played on persistant worlds for NWN very little because most running them where like yourself terrible DMs who didnt live by the RPGA code which to me is something of a must for anything but kitchen table house ruled friend groups because the RPGA code is the only wide spread one known to the masses, and one of its hard line rules is DMs can not ever alter base line numbers of such things as spells. While a DM is always free to regulate the drops of items in the world, the mechanics of the universe are not meant to be malleable in a general sense.
I mean sure I know plenty who house ruled haste still aging you in 3E+, I know guys didnt like classes like the samurai who where independent of the DM when it came to having a good personal magic weapon kit. personal bias can and will certainly play an impact on how a given DM works. But ultimately why most persistant NWN worlds tended to be ****ty small pops of mostly those who where friends with the founder of it was because they where dictatorships rather then the democracy of a table top where all the group will have their say and come to a consensus of what is and isnt good for the game.
So your ranting on being a DM for a NWN persistant world isnt something to shout out about to me, it paints you actually in a very negative light and tells me you have little interest in others and just want what you want no matter what, as most DMs who ran persistant servers proved themselves to be in my personal experience, which is the only experience that matters ofcourse.
Especially because you seem to think there was some kind of balance to be had. In D&D a game built in most additions on what is known as the reverse balance spectrum, where in the early game warriors rule, clerics offer back up battle and support mojo, and arcanes keep their head down, in the mid levels the game pretty much belongs to the divine warriors, mainly clerics who armed with faith and steel are leagues ahead of common warriors who will spend weeks healing after a bad beating. then by the high lvls the game belongs to the arcanes who rival gawds and can even create their own demi planes and pocket dimensions to create life in and rule over. At this point a wizard can litterally offer simple favors to extremely powerful planar beings to go wipe out entire armies of high lvl warriors.
So really what was your point for bringing up D&D 3E+ again? Because all it does is show a system where in the end power rules, and mortal men are cannon fodder at best.
Personally my typical 3E characters would be casters, find builds that granted unlimited spell casting power, and saving throw DCs so high no reasonable threat to the rest of the party could have a chance against me. Id do this as actually combat in PnP bores me to tears and I like to make them as short as possible when playing to focus on the fun of RPing. As a DM I am largely feared as a PKer because I do expect my players to go all out in tactics and making well rounded characters, and those who come to my table from groups who over specialize tend to go through a number of characters before they make one that doesnt die. Mostly because Im not a coddler who makes it so when they step through random TP traps the warrior doesnt automatically end up in the room with a obviously warrior challenge.
Ironically 3E+ D20 D&D is also mainly loved by players for theory crafting, while loathed by DMs who hate trying to balance a campaign around people who can pretty much go any direction they want over time with various PRC, feats, and special abilities. Hence the division mainly between regular DMs and regular players in the 2nd ed vs 3E debate. 2nd ed put more power in the hands of the DM simply by denying options to players. in 3e players are actually directed by official materials to actually plan out their entire character before play even begins. that they dont just role up a lvl 1 and see what happens, they roll up a lvl 1 and already have his entire life planned out.
Remember the #1 rule for a DM is to keep the players at the table, to keep them having fun, if even one person walks off from your table, if even one person files a complaint against you with the RPGA you will likely lose your RPGA DM status.
So your ranting on being a DM for a NWN persistant world isnt something to shout out about to me, it paints you actually in a very negative light and tells me you have little interest in others and just want what you want no matter what, as most DMs who ran persistant servers proved themselves to be in my personal experience, which is the only experience that matters ofcourse.
Okay, I'm out of this thread now. I certainly don't need a lecture, and when it comes with personal attacks to boot.
Funny because Id call the post I responded to very much a lecture no different really then my own to you.
As for personal attacks, the closest I see to one in my post to you is where due to phrasing it may indeed sound like I am specifically calling you a ****ty GM rather then actually speaking of GMs of the persistent world servers as that in a general sense. If you took it as a personal attack I am sorry for my lack of proper phrasing. Bad English is my first language.
However if you feel my speaking passionately about D&D and 3E D20 is somehow purely a lecture to you rather then making points for all reading to gather and make a choice for themselves I am sorry your very much confirming some of my initial impressions. As DMs who cant debate about the very foundation of D&D the reverse spectrum balance system it has been built upon in every edition except the much hated upon 4E or table top WoW as its called by most Ive met doesnt show themselves to be great DM material.
You tried to hold up D&D as some kind of shining example of across the spectrum balance, when it very much is not the case
It added damage possibiltiies and improved energy gen. Made better. = buff
Try to break up a power setup you dislike for being "too powerful" = nerf.
This really is tedious, and tiresome. It's been argued to death, no one's going to come to an agreement, so let's just leave it at status quo and call it a day before it degenerates further and the thread gets locked and gutted (not that it would be a bad thing in this case).
I'm done here. If this nonsense ever gets momentum, I'll reactivate the Nerf-Blaster protocols.
That is fine and all, but the question was "So do you think the toggle revision slightly after On Alert was a buff to player damage and energy management or a nerf to available power slots?", and you know your answer, it was partly a nerf. Which then (objectively) leads to removing AD/AO chaining is partly a buff, since that will free up 2 power slots.
So then saying there is no recompense is directly disagreeing with yourself. So I hope we can now go back to accepting these kind of discussions are partly or mostly subjective.
You tried to hold up D&D as some kind of shining example of across the spectrum balance, when it very much is not the case
No, you read MUCH more into what I was trying to convey. It was just an anecdotal example of how game balance is much more than just, "buff the underperforming thing".
Comments
Proves that, in one instance, powers were nerfed to a level that's generally agreed to have been overdoing it. Does not prove that nerfs are bad. Does not even prove that that nerf was bad - personally, I'll agree that it was, but that's a subjective opinion, which I cannot support with objective facts.
Objectively any content balanced to be difficult and challenging for characters who are using double AD's will be barely playable for characters not using them.
Objectively, it will not be possible to produce content for both "groups".
And, finally, producing content hard enough for double AD's will pretty much force other builds into the same strategy.
And this will, objectively, harm builds variety.
It really doesn't takes rocket science to see why power creep and lack of balance are harmful for CO.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Nerf-herding is the equivalent of calling someone a douchebag or stupid. You know, name calling. That was the point.
There have been pretty damn good reason given by several people. Brushing them aside as if they weren't written down for your reading displeasure doesn't mean they aren't here. It also hypocritical that you are demanding the opposing view to poney up things that you can't do for your own argument.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
Examples of places where you think a nerf made a game worse, does not provide objective proof of all nerfs being harmful to games. Indeed, it doesn't even provide objective proof that that particular nerf was harmful - it merely tells us that you, personally, didn't like the result.
So trying to say well hey they need to nerf things because this thing if it exist will be the new benchmark they make content held up to is beyind silly.
No content in this game honestly should be very hard even on the hardest dif because of free forming.
We see issues oft brought up about people wanting to remain true to a given concept to the point of self gimping also complain often about wanting the game to be catered to concept builds and their limits, and let the free formers have their way, which is frankly what I agree with.
This isnt a typical MMO, its really about playing in your own little bubble and occasionally teaming up with others. In a game with one of the widest gaps in possible power potential of player characters.
In such a game it is not even about comparative powers being balanced, because in general no 2 characters will ever be truly balanced unless built to some set of unwritten guidelines
and guess what that has been the rule in CO since launch, since day one people where posting basics like never take more then 3 attack powers, always have at least one of each kind of heal, have multiple layers of defenses etc.
We have 4 total ADs, 1 of which is very niche specifically aimed at PFF users. 1 is a spot heal, and then 2 that provide for forms of damage mitigation in a more general sense.
Nor is it some kind of news flash that some powers are solid without any ranking or advantages, and some need development to be not merely viable but enjoyable.
All this thread sadly boils down to, is those who dont want to be seen as simple flavor builds for fun want those who optimize held down. Its the crab in a bucket mentality at its most blatant.
People have since launch made and played builds so far up the spectrum there was never any chance the content could hope to offer them challenge. It wasnt a flaw, so much as offering players the choice of being a batman or a kryptonian.
Many games dont have that kryptonian peak to choose from the options of, here we do, why is it some think that is somekind of sin is beyond me.
So lets sum this up
They are not going to balance future content around Free Form power potential, but rather the weakest of their own ATs, that is just a given.
That follows then with the fact that people using Free Forms, and especially optimal free forms will never know challenge in this games content, which is fine and expected both by devs, and by the players who choose to meta game to make the most of their builds and avoid any stress when trying to play through the content.
It then leaves those who honestly should not care, the RP concept builders with the issue they really cant stand, that their concepts who are suppose to typically be unbeatable gods, are in fact usually terribly designed with often far to many redundant attack powers they like to have to be flashy in RP story times feeling all butt hurt because they are in fact closer to the side kicks in the power spectrum of things, by their own choices, and then want the option to be more taken away from others.
People where soloing cosmics before the first month of the game. Being a 40 who can solo a cosmic, compared to a 40 who cant even solo something like Tellys tower is a huge gap, one that has and will always exist.
Free form games are far more about theory crafting characters then anything else, or they wouldnt bother with being free form in the first place.
except in the case of champions it is objective fact that starting with the launch day fiasco, and pretty much every time since, every effort to balance things has resulted in greater breaks, and huge gaping losses to the player base.
Nothing about this threads topic is really worth the pages we have had going on, its just another oh I dont like this thing I dont use on my build and want all builds who use it broken so mine becomes better.
That is this thread, thats its whole point, its entirety for being, its destiny the moment the first letter was typed.
If you cant find a way to take down a build, its not their build that is ever the issue, but your own. If your batman cant find a way to take down superman, he wasnt batman just some wannabe.
That is quite a lot of assumption on the intend of devs and players, and misinformation.
And luckily its proved wrong by a lot of nerfs to powers, and items that have made the game much better. The crit/dodge changes made the game a lot better. Changing imbue has made the game a lot better. Nerfing gravity pulse and plasma beam has made the game better. Nerfing revitalize has made the game better. Changes to legacy devices have made the game better. Nerfs to backup devices have made the game better.
With such a good track record, it is not strange people asking for more things to be brought in line with the rest of the game.
Which is only an issue because of previous nerfs. For example in PvP it wouldnt be an issue if they hadnt thrown out crafting or nerfed the old arms lines neutralization grenade into worthlessness.
Nor if they hadnt nerfed the scything blade/swallow tail cut bleed into worthlessness, ok that is abit strong it wasnt worthless but it did get nerfed into pointless to take on any free form build and only remotely useful on the Blade AT.
Or what about making it so soldier type mobs all carry a old school neut grenade on a lengthy cool down, allowing groups of otherwise trivial trash be able to slow down the onslaught of the titans they face.
See its not the combo that is the issue, as always its the lack of counters, in this case ones we once had that where rightly feared because they could threaten all builds from the gimp to the gawd equally. Guess what it was the gawds whod ***** and moan the most about things that hurt their toons supposed superiority.
If our CC is largely worthless against each other, then its always only going to be a DPS arms race in pvp, and in pve even giving a thought to challenging free forms is pointless. You cant challenge them with out making the game pointless to suffer through for most of the ATs.
really because of every thing you list not one thing was so much better that it brought about a new era of life and activity to this game.
In fact I know many who left the game over things like the imbue changes, who now happily play many other games.
Nor do any supposed good nerfs hold any weight or even warrant being mentioned as long as the ruining of powers like Eye Beams and Mini Mines hold true. those where some of the first victims to this QQ over other builds power potential.
I knew a few in the first months who loved Eye Beams, loved them so much it was their only attack power in their build, and where built around the concept of being a cyclops style optic blaster. It was in fact a popular long wanted thing from City Of, with eye beam powers there all being low to moderate dmg early attacks.
It was due to this that many had come from CoH to make those optic blasters here, only to do a great job of it and make Eye Beams become noticed and the misinformed who saw but did not understand shout out for nerf to it, ofcourse the power got ruined, but all the tricks they had used to make it great still worked, so some simply changed the base power, but many more went back to City Of since their entire reason for giving CO a try had been a bait and switch quickly stolen out from under them.
Understand until they actually fix and make truly not just viable but enjoyable to use versions of these 2 powers they broke, any and every other argument for a positive aspect of nerfing is invalidated.
So ask for those 2 to be fixed and then you might have some actual ground to stand upon in this debate, until then you simply do not.
You see this is the reality, that their earlier actions have a spill over effect that only makes even their best efforts turn to shiite. That they must first fix that which was broken by themselves before trying to fix anything that came after.
Cryptic North must first undue the sins of their father, before they can step out of the shadow and be seen as the man they truly wish to be.
So
EYE Beams and Mini Mines MUST be fixed before any other example of a positive nerf can even be brought up and given any level of credibility.
and really what good track record? the game has literally been one endless spiral down. Its not to this day half as fun a game to play as it was in say the open beta weekend just before it went live. The game as it has been since it went live has been and still is to this day an inferior product compared to what was shown to people during beta.
Infact CO is among the only games I can think of that significantly got worse after its beta period.
Then again I and many others frequently laugh at CO as being one of the longest running pay to play test in beta games we have ever seen.
Could the game be good, sure it could, has it ever been? nope, will it ever be? not bloody likely. Do I hope it will? Well its that flicker of hope that keeps me keeping tabs. Its my lack of faith in those that hold the power over the object of my hope that keeps me yelling at the skies hoping one day the powers that be will answer my cries.
How easy it was to stack dodge on every build was completely out of whack.
Gravity pulse and plasma beam were beyond any control.
Legacy devices were joke both in PvE and PvP and had to be limited somehow.
Backup devices also were a bit overpowered.
The only thing dubious was that said nerfs were introduced not soon enough after introducing related items.
Funny how many people here thinks that CO is some kind of special snowflake not subject to the same reality as any other mmo under the sun and does not need to at least try to be balanced... When even CoH/V went that route at least once.
Thing is, I can recall each and every topic about all mentioned balance changed and said topics weren't filled only with protests. It's not like entire playerbase is on the one position.
It's all subjective.
Following its own special route regarding balance did not turn very well for CO, though.
Seems like being a special snowflake not always works in practice.
Can't say I saw purely objective and non-opinion-based proof against the suggestion either.
The closest thing approaching it is maybe crowd control.
And then there's the thing when each bit of new content is introduced there are always cries for making it more challenging, followed by equally loud cries for not making it more difficult for everyone.
Which is precisely the effect of a lack of balancing.
It just breaks older content and makes balancing a new one impossible.
The counterarguments were more in line with "no because no, PvE doesn't matter."
No the counterpoints where
1: In a free form game like this theory crafting is itself the main game that most play. Hence the huge number of open altaholics in this game.
2: Due to ATs even existing, and inherently limited compared to the most optimal free form builds especially the ATs lacking self healing, they can never build content to challenge optimal min maxxed free forms while being playable by ATs.
3: Even within free form builds, the potential character power gap is huge, infact impossible to plan content around the wide margin, and for a casual niche game like CO catering to the larger casual playerbase primarily composed of ATs while letting the free form vets pwn is the only practical option.
4: unless they wish to remove aspects of free form like creating an auto granted slot for an AO, an AD, a passive defense, etc then there is no point to trying to reign in free form builds and out right punishing a portion of theory crafters who inherently strive to create cosmic solo killer builds only drives those type away when making such is infact one of the cornerstones of playing in a super hero genre.
5: When each persons main goal is their own power, there are two ways to enjoy the game, live and let live, by letting each person enjoy the game however they wish, and trying to tear down others so they themselves feel empowered. This is not one giant fish bowel we all share, the city isnt crawling with heroes, for each person there really is in their personal story one hero, and maybe a few side kicks. This is a city of individuals each meant to be able to single handedly save the world. while content should challenge the B team ATs, and the minor league front liners, in the end even the biggest and baddest in DC really dont last that long against superman if he is full throttle on them, something so rare, when witnessed it is enough to make batmans fingers itch for the kryptonite in his belt.
This has nothing to do with wanting or not wanting game balance, nerfs, buffs, challenge, or anything in this post.
Having a base line that all powers were balanced around would make the gap much smaller and making challenging content even for FFs easier to do. As someone who plays with ATs, this game would need the difficulty ramped up out the wazoo before it became too hard for ATs.
How does balancing powers punish theory crafting? If anything, making more things viable and attractive would increase the amount of theory crafting because there are more options to consider. People were making toons that could solo 5 man content before perma ADs were a thing. Hell, they were doing it before the major buff that was OnAlert.
I don't know what your point is in this paragraph.
Balancing powers is much more reasonable than buffing everything. People are unhappy with how easy this game is even for ATs right now. Difficulty comes up as a topic every other week. Cryptic is and will make content more challenging, but if they only buff powers instead of balancing them, they will just end up with a huge amount of content that sucks because it can be blown through with a rank 1 EB that they need to revamp. That sounds like a crap load of work. Why would you ask the devs to put themselves in that position?
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
When you are talking about game balance and such, EVERYTHING will be subjective. To demand only completely objective analysis and responses is ludicrous. Being subjective does not make a person's arguments moot.
Second, game balance.
Before coming to CO, I used to be a DM on a Neverwinter Nights "persistent world" server. The server has rules and scripts to keep character levels to top off at around 15, and magic items from being too powerful. Even with that, it was always tough as a DM to run an adventure that was challenging enough for players at the upper levels. It became even harder when you'd have a group with varying levels (being an RP server, it was very likely that you could have a level 5 hanging around a level 15).
There were certain spells that were practically an "I win" button for the player using them. This made things less fun for everybody. No challenge for the caster of the spell. Exploiting the spell on pre-loaded spawns to farm for XP and loot (upsetting power levels more and upsetting the game's economy). The solution could not be "make other spells just as powerful". That doesn't solve what's wrong, and just makes it worse (even less challenge, more XP for levels and more loot for gold). We had to adjust the overperforming spells.
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Wait, isn't that another game you've been using as a comparison? Why are you allowed to support your opinion with other games but no one else is?
This is the equivalent of saying "learn2play" and no one takes that seriously either.
Hey, who remembers become devices? You know, the ones like Black Talon, Vampire, and Wolf that were pretty good before OnAlert? You know how they cost, what, $3 less than a premium AT? And now totally suck? I mean, worse than any of the free ATs? How there is no reason to take them into Alerts because that content is a big step up in difficulty? Content more suited to a super buffed player? Content that is actually more challenging than the rest of the game?
That's how much power creep OnAlert introduced in one fell swoop. Good Becomes are now trash. Sounds like one hell of an over buff that ruined an aspect of the game that people are expected to pay for. Not only did this huge buff ruin part of the game for Silver players that wanted an alternative to their AT, but to theme players that wanted to be shapeshifters or have an alternative to their FF.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
You say it isn't, others say it is.
We can argue forth and back, but the topic itself is just a suggestion made to point dev's attention at the issue.
In the end it will be only up to Cryptic if they consider it an issue serious enough to balance it, or will they leave it as it is.
I really doubt we can influence them anything more than "Oh, look, I think it might be an issue. Can you look at it and decide?".
And yeah, Sterga has a point as well. When power creep starts to hurt monetisation in an f2p game it might be a red light.
By the way and entirely off topic - it sounds more like an issue with people who don't know/are too lazy to replace standard NWN classes and spell lists with custom ones and are trying to run low power DnD campaign with standard set of rules.
That's not an issue with low magic setting at all, more like a failed execution.
OH ok you want to throw down using 3E + D&D as your bckground. Well Ive DMd for more then a decade both RPGA official games at cons, and with many a table top group experiencing so many falvors of house rules it is astounding more so to see how similar such rules can be when made by groups on the other side of the country or even from another country all together.
But as is pointed out immediatly by another, especially in 3E D&D but in all versions actually, without a heavy magic item loot setting, warrior classes ALWAYS fall behind casters, starting at lvl 5 when spells like fire ball come into play, and by the time someone can access an insta kill spell, like say simple phantasm killer will wreck most equal level players and those things that challenge them. Especially if the caster smartly focussed on his spell casting stat for optimal DCs for his spells
And personally I only played on persistant worlds for NWN very little because most running them where like yourself terrible DMs who didnt live by the RPGA code which to me is something of a must for anything but kitchen table house ruled friend groups because the RPGA code is the only wide spread one known to the masses, and one of its hard line rules is DMs can not ever alter base line numbers of such things as spells. While a DM is always free to regulate the drops of items in the world, the mechanics of the universe are not meant to be malleable in a general sense.
I mean sure I know plenty who house ruled haste still aging you in 3E+, I know guys didnt like classes like the samurai who where independent of the DM when it came to having a good personal magic weapon kit. personal bias can and will certainly play an impact on how a given DM works. But ultimately why most persistant NWN worlds tended to be ****ty small pops of mostly those who where friends with the founder of it was because they where dictatorships rather then the democracy of a table top where all the group will have their say and come to a consensus of what is and isnt good for the game.
So your ranting on being a DM for a NWN persistant world isnt something to shout out about to me, it paints you actually in a very negative light and tells me you have little interest in others and just want what you want no matter what, as most DMs who ran persistant servers proved themselves to be in my personal experience, which is the only experience that matters ofcourse.
Especially because you seem to think there was some kind of balance to be had. In D&D a game built in most additions on what is known as the reverse balance spectrum, where in the early game warriors rule, clerics offer back up battle and support mojo, and arcanes keep their head down, in the mid levels the game pretty much belongs to the divine warriors, mainly clerics who armed with faith and steel are leagues ahead of common warriors who will spend weeks healing after a bad beating. then by the high lvls the game belongs to the arcanes who rival gawds and can even create their own demi planes and pocket dimensions to create life in and rule over. At this point a wizard can litterally offer simple favors to extremely powerful planar beings to go wipe out entire armies of high lvl warriors.
So really what was your point for bringing up D&D 3E+ again? Because all it does is show a system where in the end power rules, and mortal men are cannon fodder at best.
Personally my typical 3E characters would be casters, find builds that granted unlimited spell casting power, and saving throw DCs so high no reasonable threat to the rest of the party could have a chance against me. Id do this as actually combat in PnP bores me to tears and I like to make them as short as possible when playing to focus on the fun of RPing. As a DM I am largely feared as a PKer because I do expect my players to go all out in tactics and making well rounded characters, and those who come to my table from groups who over specialize tend to go through a number of characters before they make one that doesnt die. Mostly because Im not a coddler who makes it so when they step through random TP traps the warrior doesnt automatically end up in the room with a obviously warrior challenge.
Ironically 3E+ D20 D&D is also mainly loved by players for theory crafting, while loathed by DMs who hate trying to balance a campaign around people who can pretty much go any direction they want over time with various PRC, feats, and special abilities. Hence the division mainly between regular DMs and regular players in the 2nd ed vs 3E debate. 2nd ed put more power in the hands of the DM simply by denying options to players. in 3e players are actually directed by official materials to actually plan out their entire character before play even begins. that they dont just role up a lvl 1 and see what happens, they roll up a lvl 1 and already have his entire life planned out.
Remember the #1 rule for a DM is to keep the players at the table, to keep them having fun, if even one person walks off from your table, if even one person files a complaint against you with the RPGA you will likely lose your RPGA DM status.
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That is quite funny, if that was a nerf, limiting AD/AO cycling would be a buff.
Wow... not here to make friends I see...
Funny because Id call the post I responded to very much a lecture no different really then my own to you.
As for personal attacks, the closest I see to one in my post to you is where due to phrasing it may indeed sound like I am specifically calling you a ****ty GM rather then actually speaking of GMs of the persistent world servers as that in a general sense. If you took it as a personal attack I am sorry for my lack of proper phrasing. Bad English is my first language.
However if you feel my speaking passionately about D&D and 3E D20 is somehow purely a lecture to you rather then making points for all reading to gather and make a choice for themselves I am sorry your very much confirming some of my initial impressions. As DMs who cant debate about the very foundation of D&D the reverse spectrum balance system it has been built upon in every edition except the much hated upon 4E or table top WoW as its called by most Ive met doesnt show themselves to be great DM material.
You tried to hold up D&D as some kind of shining example of across the spectrum balance, when it very much is not the case
That is fine and all, but the question was "So do you think the toggle revision slightly after On Alert was a buff to player damage and energy management or a nerf to available power slots?", and you know your answer, it was partly a nerf. Which then (objectively) leads to removing AD/AO chaining is partly a buff, since that will free up 2 power slots.
So then saying there is no recompense is directly disagreeing with yourself. So I hope we can now go back to accepting these kind of discussions are partly or mostly subjective.
No, you read MUCH more into what I was trying to convey. It was just an anecdotal example of how game balance is much more than just, "buff the underperforming thing".
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