Toxic/CC

jimhsua

I'm trying to think of a build that uses infernal supernatural with strong CC, because

a) Concept, and
b) Potential to shore up some of the deficits of epidemic (that is, waiting for the DoT to take effect)

Ideas? Passive would most likely be pestilence. I'm completely new to CC.

Just brainstorming:
1) Primary? STR and EGO are probably primary (heh) contenders right now. PRE? Secondaries would probably be CON/INT.
2) From what I read, stuns are probably the way to go. Have to see whether thunderclap, TK maelstrom, or something else fits theme. Light melee (might or bestial) also fits theme = no weapons though.
3) Other powers with good synergy?

Unconventional build ideas welcomed. I'm also open to switching to darkness instead, if that synergizes better.

Also, since I'll be leveling from scratch, I'll probably roll with a standard DE/Epidemic and retcon in the mid levels. Advice on when to do this also appreciated.

williamkony

I'm actually currently looking over options involving the use of crowd control with Venomous Breath. Venomous Breath's advantage makes it Stun enemies, while also piling on Deadly Poison. It's just a small chance of each normally, but on bleeding targets, the Stun is guaranteed and the poison chance is doubled.

Unfortunately, Venomous Breath does not trigger Manipulator, so you'll need some other way to keep your energy going. Supernatural Power would keep it up easily.

If you're focusing heavily on the crowd control portion, Presence primary is definitely the way to go. Lemme know how your build goes, because I've been considering a switch to poison, myself. I'm just not sure the poison damage alone is enough to make up for the losses I'd have to sustain.

jimhsua

Yea, I just realized that thing about venomous breath ... shame that one of the best ways to apply bleed (submachine gun) is totally OOC. Open to other ideas, however; devices included.

Objective of this build is alert/lair survivability. Won't focus on DPS that much, as I have a toon roster that handles that pretty well. Still want Pestilence for theme ... but I'm open to other suggestions that may work better.

helbjorn

Flashfire with Sweltering Heat would at least snare mobs and also synergizes with Toxic.

flowcyto

Unfortunately, many Infernal SN powers won't proc Manip. Since ya mentioned Bestial SN, I cooked this up:

PowerHouse (Link to this build)

Archetype: Freeform

Super Stats:
Level 6: Presence (Primary)
Level 10: Constitution (Secondary)
Level 15: Dexterity (Secondary)

Talents:
Level 1: The Master
Level 6: Shrug It Off
Level 9: Finesse
Level 12: Acrobat
Level 15: Quick Recovery
Level 18: Lasting Impression
Level 21: Impresario

Powers:
Level 1: Infernal Bolts
Level 1: Pestilence (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 6: Supernatural Power
Level 8: Epidemic (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 11: Manipulator
Level 14: Thunderclap (Rank 2, Collateral Damage)
Level 17: Devour Essence (Rank 2, Phlebotomist)
Level 20: Resurgence (Rank 2)
Level 23: Shred (Rank 2, Penetrating Strikes)
Level 26: Bite (Rank 2, Furor Venenum)
Level 29: Ascension
Level 32: Masterful Dodge
Level 35: Palliate (Rank 2, Absolve)
Level 38:

Travel Powers:
Level 6: Athletics
Level 35:

Specializations:
Presence: Repurpose (1/3)
Presence: Selfless Ally (2/2)
Presence: Dominion (2/2)
Presence: Moment of Glory (3/3)
Presence: Force of Will (2/2)
Sentinel: Torment (2/2)
Sentinel: Sentinel Aura (3/3)
Sentinel: Moment of Need (3/3)
Sentinel: Wither (2/2)
Brawler: The Glory of Battle (2/3)
Brawler: Penetrating Strikes (2/2)
Brawler: Ruthless (2/2)
Brawler: Setup (2/2)
Brawler: Offensive Expertise (2/2)
Mastery: Sentinel Mastery (1/1)

Only TC can build Manip here, though I left a power slot ya can add something else to also build it if ya like. Fortunately, w/ SP EU ya won't really need the toggle's energy for most things, so TC would be for the AoE stun and to keep Manip at 8 stacks.

For single-target ya can use Bite for a bleed + stun, and Shred just for Brawler's setup and a decent ST filler + debuff between stuns or bites. Setup also works for TC, so there ya go.

AoE will be just alternating between TC and full Epidemic maintains. Tank cds and DE/heals can keep ya going till lvl 40.

Self-less Ally seems to interact well w/ Ascension in groups (could also trade both for 3/3 Repurpose and ES/NM if ya dun care about ally healing as much). Also threw Palliate in there cause it works w/ Pres and all the healing-related boosts, plus as a potential threat wipe.

3rd SS I'm unsure about. There's not a huge need for Int here w/ Pres around (can be made up for w/ CDR gearing) and Dex helps w/ dps and self-heals from DE and the like. I haven't fully tested such a build, so consider that stat a wildcard (could even be Str for knock resist and some melee dmg, or Rec for more energy from SP- I dunno, depends on ur priorities).

Sentinel Mastery works very well w/ Epidemic and Pestilence. You'll find any healing from that in a group of mobs that are stunned from TC (or TK maelstrom or w/e) to be pretty damn hilarious once ya hit lvl 40.

If ya not too focused on dps for this build, then ya may want to run in Hybrid role for the healing bonuses, and because the dps roles get a CC penalty.

jimhsua

Interesting, that definitely looks workable (still going to try out Thunderclap vs. TK Maelstrom, and we'll see).

What exactly procs manipulator? As I've never used it before in a build...

flowcyto

jimhsua wrote: »

What exactly procs manipulator? As I've never used it before in a build...

Unfortunately most powers that don't have a CC/hold effect baseline but get one from a special adv will NOT proc Manip (for Infernal SN that includes DE's adv root, Condemn's paralyze/stun adv, and Venom Breath's bile stun). The normal CC spells in Infernal that do work w/ Manip- Crip Coils, Soul Mes (best w/ Glossol adv), and Locust Swarm- are all holds that can still break early to dmg and don't do much dps themselves.

Anything that stuns, roots, sleeps/placates, or holds baseline is likely to proc Manip. Good candidates are: Eldritch Blast (on each use), Experimental Blaster (also on each use, even taps), Mental Storm, Ego Storm (upto 6-7 ticks per use), Ego Sleep w/ adv, Thunderclap (stun), TK Maelstrom (stun), Sonic Arrow w/ adv (stun), Bolas, Storm's Harvest, Crashing Wave Kick (stun), Dragon Kick (stun), Ego Placate w/ adv, Bullet Beatdown (1-3 per combo, some stuns), Brute Strike w/ adv (stun + trauma), R1 Hex of Suffering (not R2) w/ lethargy adv, and Cave In charges (on staggered, stun). Most of the rest that work are pure CC spells (ie. charged/channeled holds).

Best CC for dps/grouping are stuns since they don't break early to damage (but have shorter max durations vs. holds). When solo ya can do w/e ya want cause you control what ya hit

jimhsua

Sorry, another question: what exactly interrupts? I'm talking of course about rampage/alert bosses, legendaries and cosmics. Figured if I can't contribute that much to single target dps, might as well do something.

I think I know of ice grenades and ice cage w/ adv; anything else useful?

That said, will probably pick something that works at range for bosses when it comes to attempting CC (for sentinel mastery).

williamkony

jimhsua wrote: »

Sorry, another question: what exactly interrupts? I'm talking of course about rampage/alert bosses, legendaries and cosmics. Figured if I can't contribute that much to single target dps, might as well do something.

I think I know of ice grenades and ice cage w/ adv; anything else useful?

That said, will probably pick something that works at range for bosses when it comes to attempting CC (for sentinel mastery).

Two of the relatively-new Telepath DoT powers have interrupts (when ranked, they get lower cooldowns, making it a little more spammable). Power Gauntlet also has an interrupt, but it's just a chance, not a guarantee.

Ice Cage puts some sort of effect on its target when it has the Interrupt advantage. I'm not certain, but my assumption is that it prevents further Ice Cage interrupts until it's expired, thus preventing it from being spammed. When I tested it a while back, it certainly wasn't interrupting every time I hit it. So, having a rotation of interrupts would probably be nice.

flowcyto

I actually think that ice grenades and cage w/ adv working on some bosses is not intended. From my understanding, when they made CC passes they made the move to disable all interrupts on boss-level mobs cause it was too potent and getting in the way of the intended design they had for each boss, and its likely those two were missed.

jimhsua

At lvl21, picked up most of the core powers (including manip and TK maelstrom). Though thunderclap has a shorter cooldown, I couldn't reliably lock down an average-sized alert blob with it, so switched to TK. A knock-to power could help here, but I really don't want a 3rd AOE. Also, cooldown reduction at 40 + increased stats should make that easily manageable.

Very different type of gameplay ... liking it so far. Took BCR for an early survival power; might probably retcon it later down the road when I seriously gear PRE and survivability no longer becomes an issue. Then again, R3 BCR is quite insane with PRE and bonus healing running (as in each stack is easily competitive with a nec elixir)...

Manip is a lot easier to keep at 8 stacks compared to, say, Enraged ... just tap the power every minute or so (the stacks also last that much longer), even with no enemies around.

flowcyto

Yeah, one oft over-looked perk to Manip is how easy it is to keep it at 8 stacks no matter how long between combat periods. Manip builds can start at 8 stacks where most builds start at 1. Ofc, its lower dps in the long run, but it won't be a huge difference for most optimized FFs, and the control vs. non-boss enemies can be fantastic. It also helps make Pres a more viable stat option for non-healing builds (though Int PSS can replace it).

Ya prob won't need to stomach BCR's dmg penalty and can opt for Conviction. Up to you, but once ya get Sentinel Mastery at lvl 40 it can replace BCR pretty easily.

jimhsua

Here's some changes I made. Because of all that lovely PRE and sentinel/mastery, I decided to take the "support but not support" route and added a few powers in that direction. Iniquity makes sense as a team heal, and with the whole "torturing oneself" theme. Mental storm works as a CC for sentinel mastery when it's "inconvenient" to get close (gravitar anyone?) - could also swap for Hex of Suffering w/ adv, or Ice cage w/ adv for the lulz. That said, are there any good 100 foot CCs? Might keep the rez, or swap it out.


PowerHouse (Link to this build)

Name:

Archetype: Freeform

Super Stats:
Level 6: Presence (Primary)
Level 10: Constitution (Secondary)
Level 15: Recovery (Secondary)

Talents:
Level 1: The Master
Level 6: Shrug It Off
Level 9: Finesse
Level 12: Acrobat
Level 15: Quick Recovery
Level 18: Lasting Impression
Level 21: Impresario

Powers:
Level 1: Infernal Bolts
Level 1: Pestilence (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 6: Supernatural Power
Level 8: Epidemic (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 11: Manipulator
Level 14: Conviction (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 17: Devour Essence (Rank 2, Phlebotomist)
Level 20: Resurgence (Rank 2)
Level 23: Masterful Dodge
Level 26: Telekinetic Maelstrom (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 29: Ascension (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 32: Iniquity (Rank 2, Justice)
Level 35: Hex of Suffering (Rune of Lethargy)
Level 38: Redemption

Travel Powers:
Level 6: Athletics (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 35:

Specializations:
Presence: Repurpose (1/3)
Presence: Selfless Ally (2/2)
Presence: Dominion (2/2)
Presence: Moment of Glory (3/3)
Presence: Force of Will (2/2)
Sentinel: Torment (2/2)
Sentinel: Sentinel Aura (3/3)
Sentinel: Moment of Need (3/3)
Sentinel: Wither (2/2)
Sentry: Fortified Gear (3/3)
Sentry: Precise (2/3)
Sentry: Fortify (2/2)
Sentry: Stalling Tactics (3/3)
Mastery: Sentinel Mastery (1/1)

flowcyto

Sniper Rifle stuns.. but doesn't proc Manip - same w/ Sonic Device. There's Sonic Arrow or Taser Arrow, which do proc Manip and apply CC. Exp Blaster procs Manip, but isn't really a CC on tap (same w/ Eldritch Blast). The confuses are also 100ft, but they.. uh, suck.

Pretty much everything that CC's is 50ft or less.

jimhsua

I noticed that after removing the Shred/Bite combo (as I understand, that too wouldn't proc Manip), that I should adjust the spec trees somewhat. Changed to Sentry for now.

And there's no block power ... but frankly, I might not even need one here, given the style of gameplay (my other support toon also neglects to take a block). I could afford to swap out one of the ADs or the rez for one, though...

Also ... might add in the adv for Epidemic in place of R3. With the time I'll be spending in non-DPS roles ... it could actually be worth it.

jimhsua

Hm. Well, at 40, this build really is something. Full powerhouse = no ADs used, no conviction used, health bar full. Grab alert = same thing, health bar pegged at max. The combination of the AoE hold + AoE attacks + pestilence makes healing inside mobs faster than healing outside. Absurd.
PowerHouse (Link to this build)

Name: Tarrisaeth The Tormenter

Archetype: Freeform

Super Stats:
Level 6: Presence (Primary)
Level 10: Constitution (Secondary)
Level 15: Endurance (Secondary)

Talents:
Level 1: Abyssal
Level 6: Ascetic
Level 9: Boundless Reserves
Level 12: Prodigy
Level 15: Shrug It Off
Level 18: Survival Training
Level 21: Amazing Stamina

Powers:
Level 1: Infernal Bolts
Level 1: Pestilence (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 6: Supernatural Power
Level 8: Epidemic (Rank 2, Outbreak)
Level 11: Manipulator
Level 14: Conviction (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 17: Devour Essence (Rank 2, Phlebotomist)
Level 20: Unbreakable
Level 23: Ego Surge (Nimble Mind)
Level 26: Telekinetic Maelstrom (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 29: Ascension (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 32: Mental Storm (Rank 2)
Level 35: Force Shield (Rank 2, Force Sheathe)
Level 38: Redemption (Salvation)

Travel Powers:
Level 6: Flight (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 35:

Specializations:
Presence: Repurpose (3/3)
Presence: Selfless Ally (2/2)
Presence: Dominion (2/2)
Presence: Moment of Glory (1/3)
Presence: Force of Will (2/2)
Sentinel: Torment (2/2)
Sentinel: Sentinel Aura (3/3)
Sentinel: Moment of Need (3/3)
Sentinel: Wither (2/2)
Sentry: Fortified Gear (3/3)
Sentry: Sentry Aura (2/3)
Sentry: Fortify (2/2)
Sentry: Stalling Tactics (3/3)
Mastery: Sentinel Mastery (1/1)

(corrections: took ES/NM instead of masterful dodge, adv instead of R3 on epidemic). TK Maelstrom can be switched w/ Thunderclap.)

With PRE and repurpose, my conviction also crits for as much as a Resurgence at my current health (hence why I ditched resurgence). 3 second cooldown, too.

flowcyto

jimhsua wrote: »

Hm. Well, at 40, this build really is something. Full powerhouse = no ADs used, no conviction used, health bar full. Grab alert = same thing, health bar pegged at max. The combination of the AoE hold + AoE attacks + pestilence makes healing inside mobs faster than healing outside. Absurd.

Yup, as I think I mentioned early in the thread, it's a pretty hilarious combo. The more mobs (that are CC'd) the merrier. Hope stunsville has been a fun ride :x

jasinblaze

a toxic build with ice form and other ice cage producing powers
maybe manipulator toggle with that

tdits

This has given me an idea for an Archery build, assuming that Toxic Device applies to all targets when combined with Sonic Arrow. How much Offense do you need before not having any Severity from specs stops being an issue?

flowcyto

tdits wrote: »

This has given me an idea for an Archery build, assuming that Toxic Device applies to all targets when combined with Sonic Arrow. How much Offense do you need before not having any Severity from specs stops being an issue?

Offense and Crit Sev rating haven't been shown to DR each other directly- they are just in the same layer as far as final dmg calculations. The spec severity gains are flat and DR-free, but severity rating does diminish on itself (why mixing severity gear_mods w/ Dex Mastery is not a good idea).

If ur asking how much Offense it would take to replace, say, 10% flat severity, I wouldn't know, but I imagine it depends on the crit rate. Unfortunately, its a loss either way cause any offense you could use to 'make up for' on gear could also have been added to the build that had higher severity from the specs.

What spec options were ya considering? Cause things like Vulnerability and Wither can makeup for losing the dps/severity oriented specs. Alternatively, something like spec-ing for Bulwark and Protector Mastery would lower ur dps, but also increase ur survival innately so more stats can go to dps to help get some back.

tdits

I was thinking INT/Sentinel/Sentry.

flowcyto

Well, as long as ya have something to roll Wither, could be fine. Sentry does have Precise for a nice 9% dmg boost, but only to ST attacks- so could be an okay setup as long as ST attacks were ur strong-point or main priority. Also as long as ya not using a DUC to render Detec Invuln redundant in most (not all) content.

tdits

Wait, you mean that those damage boosting specs aren't additive?

flowcyto

Can't double-check now, but pretty sure they aren't additive. At least Overseer's Administer seemed to be non-additive on blasts when I was testing, and Trapped seemed to be multiplicative.

jimhsua

Typical DPS (first stage, bank robbery).



For a manipulator toon, those numbers are ... pretty competitive.

jimhsua

Sample F&I run. For having no targeted healing powers, beating a dedicated healer in the numbers is ... pretty impressive. In DPS role - lol. (For sentinel mastery, add my numbers as well as Kenina and Frosticus's for the total heal). That comes out to ... 117331.

Kai was tank on this one; made up just about a quarter of her healing. Obviously I won't beat a dedicated healer in less, erm, effective groups.

flowcyto

Yup, Sentinel Mastery is great.

The healing itself comes in small amounts, though, so you could argue that its less important than having an actual healer who can quickly patch up large chunks of dmg. I mean, if there's content that SM can solely heal a team through, then its prob not too challenging a content to begin with.

pantagruel01

jimhsua wrote: »

Sample F&I run. For having no targeted healing powers, beating a dedicated healer in the numbers is ... pretty impressive.

Lindale mostly uses bubbles which probably don't show up on hps (you'll note that Frosticus did 1.66 million raw damage and only 252k real damage, kai doesn't have 550% mitigation), and Athena was idle the majority of the time (that 400-odd hps is almost entirely passive).

jimhsua

Yep, all good points. Wouldn't dare take this as a dedicated healer (I have other toons for that). But for grabs and such, and even 5-man APs, passive healing can be all you need for those.

Which brings to mind ... I wonder if rez is the best team-based power to have in here, or if something would be more helpful (bubbles, for instance)?

flowcyto

Rezes, imo, are good for pugging the Rampages w/ .. not so much for organized groups. AoRP or AoPM may be the best team-power for organized groups (since there's not that many buffs in the game as is).

pantagruel01

flowcyto wrote: »

Rezes, imo, are good for pugging the Rampages w/ .. not so much for organized groups.

People die even in organized groups, though dedicated healers often have a res and the bandwidth to use it. Actually, a tank with res would probably be good with Gravitar, Gravvy likes to shoot at ressers.

flowcyto

pantagruel01 wrote: »

People die even in organized groups, though dedicated healers often have a res and the bandwidth to use it.

Yea that's what I mean. In an organized group, having a dedicated healer is much more likely, and beforehand ya can check or clear-up to see who has rezes or w/e.