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Did Lucas really destroy Star Wars with the Prequels?
cybersoldier1981
Posts: 2,501 Arc User
Its a heated debate among Star Wars fans, one thats never likely to go away until someone actually does something worse (no pressure at all, JJ Abrams). The truth is
most people will make a few valid points:
-The Prequels did seem to flat out shoehorn in things for no reason at all. In other words, where we could have seen interesting characters, races, or even events it became uncomfortable when the Universe became a bit smaller, just to elicit a few people saying Oh, cool, its Chewbacca! He's in this one! It shows him!.
-When the Prequels did feature things relative to the continuity, it didnt seem to flow. It actually seemed more like a quick patch-over to fill tiny gaps between special effects. You have to admit, the desire to protect his loved ones and ensure that even a Sith Lord got a fair trial is hardly a fall to the Dark Side.
-And even still, there was that whole killing children thing. Im still not even sure how this happened, because Anakin seemed to have little to no reason to outright murder the Tusken children- it seemed forced, with zero escalation to xenophobia, considering that Anakin was close to several non-humans. Worse, it seems it took even less to murder the Jedi Padawan children.
These are just three big complaints. On top of this; theres Jar-Jar, random lightsaber flourishes for no reason during a fight, reducing Boba Fett to a clone instead of following his previous Lucas-Approved origin that made him an established badass veteran and brought Mandalorians into the Clone Wars, the lack of chemistry between Padme and Anakin, the obvious marketing toward children rather than a mature crowd, the list goes on and on. Its really hard to argue this.
What bothers me a lot isnt the sheer amount of faults with the Prequels. Its the fact that the Expanded Universe works night and day to mend the fractures and holes in the lore. And the reason this bothers me is simple- George Lucas decided to write the Prequels in such a way that he figuratively dropped his trousers, squatted, and pitched a turd right on top of the very Expanded Universe that he blessed and supported, just to make a buck with terrible writing for a rushed Prequel trilogy.
But that isnt even what bothers me the most. Theres something else that gets under my skin and makes me grind my teeth. Its a phrase, just 4 little words
George Lucas original vision
Its used to excuse the random leaps in technology from the Classic Trilogy to the Prequels, and any other bizarre random stupidity in the Prequels (and the remastered Classic Trilogy). And I dont buy it, not for one second. And Ill tell you why. Its a dirty little secret that most people dont know, but Ill share it with you.
George Lucas didnt have an original vision.
Oh, no- Im not saying he didnt have an idea that turned into Star Wars. He did have that. But it was by no means original. And it was by no means anything like the Classic Trilogy or Prequels.
The Hidden Fortress is a little-known Samurai movie. George Lucas often states that it inspired him, but a lot of sources say that his original vision was pretty much The Hidden Fortress in Space. Fortunately, a lot of people around Lucas helped him tailor the script away from that just a bit.
Also, imagine a setting where everyone has laser swords, and its basically a guy named Starkiller out to defeat an evil space samurai thats really his father all while winning the love of a space princess. Thats what Lucas story was going to be. As you can see, its so un-original it might as well have a lead character named Qui-Gon Generic. It wouldnt have stood out among the other stories at the time; itd have been another dumb space fantasy with better special effects and itd be forgotten long ago. Fortunately, brighter minds steered the project away from this as well.
And here we have the other things- see; Lucas never wanted the Star Wars universe to have that whole space antique look that so many things have that make the setting special. The look of certain environments, the costumes of certain people, the rugged semi-antique look of blasters and some of the equipment, even the simplicity of the lightsaber blade wasnt a work of creativity on Lucas or Spielbergs part. It was a small budget, a few trash bins, and a few creative people in a prop shop and effects studio trying to put together something similar to Lucas brainchild and hope it didnt get canned in production. Fortunately, for whatever reason it worked.
Not only that, but if you follow along with the story of the Classic Trilogy, it starts to become painfully obvious that some of the plot changes later in the saga werent intentional- they were made up on the fly and shoehorned in. Additionally, watching a few parodies of Star Wars outright draws attention to the glaring plot holes.
So, while some will agree- I can tell you what Lucas did. He didnt ruin Star Wars with the Prequels. He barely got by with the Classic Trilogy, and deserves very little credit for its success. George Lucas unrealistic expectations accidentally produced an amazing setting with visual appeal. And for that, he deserves some gratitude.
But not much.
Remember, this is the man that sold out to Disney and let them toss Star Wars 1313 in the trash bin, despite the fact that it would have been the first mature adventure in the Star Wars Universe that put you into the boots of a young Bounty Hunter and didnt force the story to revolve around galactic empires, Jedi, or anything of the sort.
This is the man that took his ball and went home when Knights of the Old Republic 2 didnt become a cash-cow monster success to his expectations, and got butthurt when the games story actually shattered the entire image of the black-and-white duality of the Force and actually had people thinking about what the Force truly is and what it can do. Nope, George Lucas wants it simple and dumb.
This is the man who took the galactic badasses, the Mandalorians, and transformed them into isolated little space knights living in boxes on a desert world under the rule of a Queen for a childrens show and declared it unquestionable canon despite the Mandalorians already having Expanded Universe lore that clearly described and outlined their entire culture, none of which mentions them being led by anything other than a Mandalore. Nope, not lame enough, better drop a Lucas turd on that.
This is the man that took the Classic Trilogy and butchered it to shoehorn flashy CGI where it wasnt needed and make sure Greedo shot first and missed at point blank range, because in Lucasworld having a weapon pointed at your face isnt reasonable cause to use deadly force in self-defense despite the Police and Military in every civilized country in the world completely disagreeing with him.
In summary, George Lucas didnt destroy the Star Wars saga with the Prequels. He launched a half-baked idea that was somehow miraculously appealing thanks to other peoples influence and effort, made crap up as he went along, and then somehow made it his lifes goal to completely destroy it every time he placed his greasy money-grubbing hands on it afterward despite everyone elses best efforts.
-The Prequels did seem to flat out shoehorn in things for no reason at all. In other words, where we could have seen interesting characters, races, or even events it became uncomfortable when the Universe became a bit smaller, just to elicit a few people saying Oh, cool, its Chewbacca! He's in this one! It shows him!.
-When the Prequels did feature things relative to the continuity, it didnt seem to flow. It actually seemed more like a quick patch-over to fill tiny gaps between special effects. You have to admit, the desire to protect his loved ones and ensure that even a Sith Lord got a fair trial is hardly a fall to the Dark Side.
-And even still, there was that whole killing children thing. Im still not even sure how this happened, because Anakin seemed to have little to no reason to outright murder the Tusken children- it seemed forced, with zero escalation to xenophobia, considering that Anakin was close to several non-humans. Worse, it seems it took even less to murder the Jedi Padawan children.
These are just three big complaints. On top of this; theres Jar-Jar, random lightsaber flourishes for no reason during a fight, reducing Boba Fett to a clone instead of following his previous Lucas-Approved origin that made him an established badass veteran and brought Mandalorians into the Clone Wars, the lack of chemistry between Padme and Anakin, the obvious marketing toward children rather than a mature crowd, the list goes on and on. Its really hard to argue this.
What bothers me a lot isnt the sheer amount of faults with the Prequels. Its the fact that the Expanded Universe works night and day to mend the fractures and holes in the lore. And the reason this bothers me is simple- George Lucas decided to write the Prequels in such a way that he figuratively dropped his trousers, squatted, and pitched a turd right on top of the very Expanded Universe that he blessed and supported, just to make a buck with terrible writing for a rushed Prequel trilogy.
But that isnt even what bothers me the most. Theres something else that gets under my skin and makes me grind my teeth. Its a phrase, just 4 little words
George Lucas original vision
Its used to excuse the random leaps in technology from the Classic Trilogy to the Prequels, and any other bizarre random stupidity in the Prequels (and the remastered Classic Trilogy). And I dont buy it, not for one second. And Ill tell you why. Its a dirty little secret that most people dont know, but Ill share it with you.
George Lucas didnt have an original vision.
Oh, no- Im not saying he didnt have an idea that turned into Star Wars. He did have that. But it was by no means original. And it was by no means anything like the Classic Trilogy or Prequels.
The Hidden Fortress is a little-known Samurai movie. George Lucas often states that it inspired him, but a lot of sources say that his original vision was pretty much The Hidden Fortress in Space. Fortunately, a lot of people around Lucas helped him tailor the script away from that just a bit.
Also, imagine a setting where everyone has laser swords, and its basically a guy named Starkiller out to defeat an evil space samurai thats really his father all while winning the love of a space princess. Thats what Lucas story was going to be. As you can see, its so un-original it might as well have a lead character named Qui-Gon Generic. It wouldnt have stood out among the other stories at the time; itd have been another dumb space fantasy with better special effects and itd be forgotten long ago. Fortunately, brighter minds steered the project away from this as well.
And here we have the other things- see; Lucas never wanted the Star Wars universe to have that whole space antique look that so many things have that make the setting special. The look of certain environments, the costumes of certain people, the rugged semi-antique look of blasters and some of the equipment, even the simplicity of the lightsaber blade wasnt a work of creativity on Lucas or Spielbergs part. It was a small budget, a few trash bins, and a few creative people in a prop shop and effects studio trying to put together something similar to Lucas brainchild and hope it didnt get canned in production. Fortunately, for whatever reason it worked.
Not only that, but if you follow along with the story of the Classic Trilogy, it starts to become painfully obvious that some of the plot changes later in the saga werent intentional- they were made up on the fly and shoehorned in. Additionally, watching a few parodies of Star Wars outright draws attention to the glaring plot holes.
So, while some will agree- I can tell you what Lucas did. He didnt ruin Star Wars with the Prequels. He barely got by with the Classic Trilogy, and deserves very little credit for its success. George Lucas unrealistic expectations accidentally produced an amazing setting with visual appeal. And for that, he deserves some gratitude.
But not much.
Remember, this is the man that sold out to Disney and let them toss Star Wars 1313 in the trash bin, despite the fact that it would have been the first mature adventure in the Star Wars Universe that put you into the boots of a young Bounty Hunter and didnt force the story to revolve around galactic empires, Jedi, or anything of the sort.
This is the man that took his ball and went home when Knights of the Old Republic 2 didnt become a cash-cow monster success to his expectations, and got butthurt when the games story actually shattered the entire image of the black-and-white duality of the Force and actually had people thinking about what the Force truly is and what it can do. Nope, George Lucas wants it simple and dumb.
This is the man who took the galactic badasses, the Mandalorians, and transformed them into isolated little space knights living in boxes on a desert world under the rule of a Queen for a childrens show and declared it unquestionable canon despite the Mandalorians already having Expanded Universe lore that clearly described and outlined their entire culture, none of which mentions them being led by anything other than a Mandalore. Nope, not lame enough, better drop a Lucas turd on that.
This is the man that took the Classic Trilogy and butchered it to shoehorn flashy CGI where it wasnt needed and make sure Greedo shot first and missed at point blank range, because in Lucasworld having a weapon pointed at your face isnt reasonable cause to use deadly force in self-defense despite the Police and Military in every civilized country in the world completely disagreeing with him.
In summary, George Lucas didnt destroy the Star Wars saga with the Prequels. He launched a half-baked idea that was somehow miraculously appealing thanks to other peoples influence and effort, made crap up as he went along, and then somehow made it his lifes goal to completely destroy it every time he placed his greasy money-grubbing hands on it afterward despite everyone elses best efforts.
Post edited by cybersoldier1981 on
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And some prequels are just better at everything.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
If you would have found me when I was 10 years old, and said that in 2009 they would make a GI Joe movie and a Star Trek movie- and that I'd hate the GI Joe movie and love the Star Wars movie, I'd have laughed and called you a liar. But, nope.
GI Joe Retaliation was a huge improvement, though.
Did you just typo Star Trek with Star Wars U__U
Phasers on spleen kick!
Though to be fair Revenge of The Sith was a good movie its just the two before it are awful
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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It honestly felt like the most rushed movie, to me. I wanted to see more of the Clone Wars (not the series) in the second movie, and wrap it all up in the third. I would have rather seen Anakin fall to the Dark Side through the horrors of a war, not over what pushed him.
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And I never got the whole "I'm the good guy, but I'm going to leave you here with no legs while you scream in agony and burn alive until the Emperor turns you into a giant murder cyborg tyrant. And then I'm going to lie to your kid about this lightsaber and say you wanted him to have it."
The guy lost it. They'd just tortured his mother to death, he lost it and gave in to the dark side. Anger, hate, suffering, you know the deal.
By that time he was already neck deep in the dark side.
Anyone who's ever written a story for the Expanded Universe knows that they have to follow Lucas' rules. Further, while all of the Expanded Universe is "accepted" by Lucas, he's not bound to adhering to any of it at all. The writers of Expanded Universe know all this. There's no reason to go all Karen Traviss about it.
My version is "It's his movie, not yours, he can do what he wants with it."
The audacity of some people to say that he shouldn't work on his own stories because "Star Wars belongs to everyone now," makes me want to start throwing backhands. As a writer and artist, if someone told me I'm doing my own stories wrong - I mean, don't get me wrong, I can and will take criticism - but telling me that I shouldn't work on my own stuff anymore because I'm a moron is liable to get you five across the eyes.
I can't blame him. This guy's been attacked for fifteen years about the franchise. He reached his breaking point and said "Fine, let someone else have it."
And I think maybe you're using the term "selling out" wrong. I doubt he was hurting for cash.
It ain't true canon until Lucas says it is. The only true fact that anyone at all should rely on about Mandalorians is that Boba Fett was one, whatever that was. As a matter of fact, I'm not entirely sure that the word Mandalorian was ever in the original trilogy, so, yeah whatever.
Actually, this brings me to something I really dislike about the Expanded Universe. "Many Bothans died to bring us this information." Really? Some Bothans got information? Great, they're a species of conniving spies. Yep, all of them.
Don't ever tell Han Solo the odds? Racial trait. Don't ever tell any Corellian the odds, ever.
"Cut the Chatter Red 2" Henceforth Wedge will always tell his pilots to cut the chatter. Obviously holding a grudge.
Greedo the bounty hunter dies? Awesome, all Rodians are bad at bounty hunting.
The Expanded Universe is not without its poo.
My opinion of the prequels? They were fine. They had some cool fight scenes, race scenes, lasers, explosions, beheading, woohoo! I'm a big fan of Star Wars, because they were fun movies. I don't try to dissect them, I watch them for what they are. People hate Jar Jar? Who cares, the original trilogy had a golden robot whose sole purpose was to be annoying, and nobody ever said boo about it. Jar Jar's hate is just internet bandwagoning, in my opinion. NOOOOooOOooOOooOOOooOOOooo was a bit silly, but so was this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZBevXohCI
People just need to not give so much of a poo about it. A couple of "bad" prequels doesn't remove the fun you had watching the movies in your Underoos.
And Biff (aka Vegeta Jr) makes some good points. It was his franchise, not anyone else's. He allowed people to write stories about it but they were never canon. His vision of Star Wars is his vision. While it's obvious his view points have changed, as all do when people get older, he has a right to do that with his work. It's no one else's and it baffles me why people suddenly believe that Star Wars didn't belong to him.
I may not have liked the movies, but that wasn't because I thought Lucas didn't understand his own work, but because I was never wrapped up in Star Wars to begin with. The first trilogy were quaint stories to me, but they weren't some epiphany invoking tale that shined light and gave me insight into anything that Star Wars fans seem to believe. In fact I often found the dialog and storytelling of the originals shaky at times to begin with. The difference between the prequels and the original is the pacing, the prequels were too slow and prone to causing exhaustion while the original were fast paced and didn't draw things out.
It's like the difference between 2009 Star Trek and Into Darkness. Into Darkness was good, but it's problem was it was too damn long and just exhausted you. You had no desire to see it again because you just felt warn out because there was too much action and each action scene was grossly drawn out.
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It's not like it ever was deep franchise in any incarnations.
It's all about lasers, space ships and 'splosions. Always was.
All of this, with a side of chili cheese fries. It's canonization over-simplified to a tragic fault.
What kills me is how they did the exact same thing for the Old Republic (in general, not just the MMO). All the same races, the same droids, the same ships, the same planets, the same internal cliches Biff just mentioned. Everything looks and behaves exactly the same, except it just looks different, like it's a parallel universe where Virgil Exner was the galaxy's most influential designer instead of Harley Earl. But it's not set 36 years before A New Hope, not 360 years, but 3,600 years! And the various writers are still petrified of deviating from the movie canon in the slightest way. So they have to create some bullpucky "stagnation" excuse, which only compounds how lazy and condescending they've been to the audience to begin with.
And Nepht, I will go to my grave cursing JJ Abrams for the pathetic, stupefying $#!^show of a new timeline he's created for Star Trek. My expectations for the Roberto Orci-directed 3rd JJ Trek movie couldn't possibly be lower. I'll end my rant here before I write something that consumes more server space than the entire STO forum.
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
One thing I liked about Knights of the Old Republic 2? It stated that the Force is not what determines morality, nor does it really act like addictive crack when you do something wrong- it's what we choose to do with the Force, that we are in control.
I'll say she did some pretty good work- not all of it. And if I'm not mistaken, Lucas did say they were canon at first and then just sort of stopped giving a damn, and- I'll agree with you again, a lot of the EU was trash. Tales from Jabba's Palace couldn't have been more awful unless it was printed on used toilet paper from Chipotle.
You are right- but, I'll say this. If you say "Cyber, you can actually write stories about stuff in my universe as long as you don't mess with X, Y, and Z and I will respect your work"- it's pretty lousy if you just up and un-make what I contribute.
Doubtful. The optimist in me wants to believe he actually wants to see what other creative minds can do with his universe, and he's listened to reason.
Except Lucas did say the KotOR and SW:ToR stories were canon.
Oh, don't get me started. The 'sequel' in the EU was pretty much a repeat of the classic trilogy. And there were a lot of things through the universe that struck me as absolute garbage.
Everything you said here is why I took EXTREME caution in reading the EU. I wasn't even too thrilled with the Revan book.
Jensaarai? Cool. Mandalorian history? Awesome. Old Republic and before? Also awesome.
That's the thing, none of it is true canon until it appears in the movies (or the shows).
Problem is, the writers are supposed to know that anything they do can be considered canon only when it goes into film or show. Absolutely anything you make can be undone by a single decision by him. The thing is, he wants to do the story his way. But since people want to write Star Wars stuff, he says "Fine, do it, but I don't have to adhere to anything you write." He can use your ideas and make them official canon, but you should know, going in, that anything you write that comes into conflict with anything he comes up with, sorry but his version takes precedence. I think he doesn't even read Expanded Universe stuff, he just lets people play in his sandbox. And he doesn't really owe it to anyone to have a fact-checker see if anything contradicts canon, because again, the writers go in knowing anything they do isn't canon until he says so.
Got a quote? Not trying to be snarky or anything, I just never heard of that happen.
Pretty much everything in Expanded Universe is considered canon, but just a lower level of canon than the films/shows. Those are the true canon, and everything else can be superseded by anything in the true canon.
@Chimerafreek
That's basically it, there's Lucas canon, which supersedes all other canon, and the rest of the canon, none of which can supersede Lucas canon. But if he did indeed say that those games are actual Lucas canon, that's a different story.
Its not some secret GL had alot of ideas that thankfully never made it into the final version of the original films. The fact he had to call upon some of the greatest minds of sci fi dom to among other things ghost write the script and novels that where written and published on the heels of the films.
I mean I am pretty sure we are all glad luke didnt end up some old man with a robot head and han end up some wind and the willows stunt double reject of mr toad.
Some things like the prop guy and his use of a paltry budget to jump start an entire prop company using a mixture of old military surplus items from a shop and old junk from around the set itself like ofcourse the classic camera grip things used for the lightsaber handle are the stuff of legend among the industry and fans alike.
Then there is the fact that while the prequels didnt exactly out and out go against canon they most certainly went overboard on alot of the fan service tryng to fit in way to much call back to the originals. While things like seeing chewy where not impossible the situation felt rather improbable and far fetched. After all a wookie lives around 400 years and chewy had spent long decades in forced labor to the empire before becoming the companion of a human scoundrel.
The fall of anakin was so poorly done its well past the need to harp on about it but I shall none the less.
Anakin was just too young in the first film, the fact he was virtually an entirely new character for the 2nd shows how pointless starting him as a kid was. In fact it largely was forced and while technically not going to much against those bits of background given in the various novels over the years, it did not feel right.
Things said by old obi wan in the originals tended to hint at a relationship more akin to how luke and han met and became friends. two adults while of differing pasts and temper who found friendship in common ground.
In fact I would have based on those things I read long before the prequels imagined them meeting after the clone wars began or near the time they first broke out and it would of been more along the lines of 2 young men eager for adventure and to prove to themselves their own mettle.
Ofcourse nothing Id ever read suggested mandorians had much to do with the clones themselves, since all Id read suggested the clone wars where more about fighting a war against clones who due to instability within the clones aused by disharmony with the force because of their unnatural origin went mad. I never read anything that ever suggested the clone wars had a connection with the rise of the empire itself.
Even the end of anakin at the hands of Obi Wan from what little was written about it in the years prior to the prequels suggested that the injuries of anakin had been more the result of collateral dmg to the plant they where fighting in causing anakin to be hit by a wave of molten metal that only his sheer mastery of the force allowed him to endure and survive. Now keep in mind he was barely a jedi knight at this time in his career, and as a master jedi Luke was able to do things like fully endure volcanic lava with his absorb energy skills.
So the big long drawn out 45 minute battle between them was well beyond absurd to the point of hilarity.
As for his fall well I could find b movie cult classics that did the fall of a good man to temptation and darkness far better then the prequels did.
Oh and if anyone hasnt seen them, totally check out harry S plinketts reviews of the prequels on red letter media. they do a job better then anyone else ever could of tearing those abominations a hole bigger then their plot holes.
KOTORs good ending with a female as revan is if I recall the official canon from the game but I could be wrong, myself I always went the darkside route with a male and tend to prefer my own personal canon for that bit of history;)
The only canon in SWTOR is the ending choice, and that is only for those games. None of the EU, as has been officially announced, is non-canon. Lucas tended to dance around it but he made it clear whatever appeared in EU he was never beholden to, so people expecting Lucas to bow down and follow some of the badly written novels is being silly. Lucas has also confirmed, contrary to long standing fan rumor, Lucas has never read any of the EU.
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Revan's good ending as a male was canon. The Exile's good ending as a female was canon.
Canon in their respective games, not to Star Wars as a whole.
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Which is also canon in the novels, which is canon until the movies say otherwise.
Did you not read my link? Lucas has been saying that the EU was NOT canon for years, and Disney has already come out and publicly said that the EU and games are NOT canon. EU has not and never has been canon. While people have made up stories that Lucas has personally read every EU novel and story line to every EU game, Lucas says he has never read any of that stuff.
So, when you say when they finally make it official, they did that. At the end of last year I think the announcement was, or early this year.
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You're quite the snark sometimes, y'know. Fine, it is EU canon, perhaps not film canon.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Canon
Scroll down to the Canon in the Holocron continuity database section. This is mainly what Cyber and I are discussing, the levels of accepted canon. It wasn't until the beginning of this year that anything other than the movies and tv stuff became officially non-canon. Before that time, most of the Expanded Universe stuff was accepted as canon by the fans, since they tried very hard to keep everything consistent and such.
The whole thing with the Mandalorians, I can see why people would be upset, but if they're getting worked up over what's canon and what isn't, they should know enough about the different levels of canon, and who can change it officially. It's unfortunate, but it's like (and please forgive the analogy, I don't want to turn this into Analogy Wars) someone comes over to your house and builds a sandcastle in your sandbox, then tells you you can never tear it down. Not really fair, is it?