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Post-nerf Recognition Gearing

helbjornhelbjorn Posts: 678 Arc User
edited July 2014 in Power Discussion
Before the controversial nerf to crit and dodge, all my level 40's were decked out in Silver Recognition gear. Due to the prevailing DR at the time, all had Gloves of Agility (crit chance) and Breastplates of Elusiveness (avoidance).

Now that the changes have been here a while, are these still the most efficient choices, or has Piercing or even Offense become more beneficial? Is Agility more contributory than Elusiveness?

What are the general numbers? And more importantly, am I going to have to grind hundreds of additional recognition? :frown:
Post edited by helbjorn on

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    flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 12,752 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Only major gearing change the crit/dodge nerf made to most of my toons was ditching the dodge/avoid gear for defense/HP options. Some of them run w/ the TBD/AS loop and Fort Gear, so the Defense gear is mix of reliable dmg resist and some small %offense boost.

    Final %dmg resist still has a natural DR, though. If damage resist is already high from something like Defiance or Juggernaut + Con, adding more Defense has a greatly diminished effect on final damage resist vs. for a squishy build- at that point more health or dodge/avoid is prob better (unless ya want to feed the TBD/AS loop further, but Offense also has a DR and doesn't multiply off of severity). Favoring more health if there's much healing in the build cause it lessens over-heal chances.

    As far as the crit nerf, it mainly made non-Dex/crit SS builds catch up in crit% and slapped the DR heavily at around 32-35% unboosted general crit, but itself didn't really change my gearing much. I get Piercing (severity) since severity mods are rare and can't effectively go past r5. But ya can slot a r7+ gamblers in Precision to get the best of both worlds. I'd consider Agility gloves for chars using Dex Mastery and/or ones that are very crit% reliant (things like avenger mastery, KI/HI, FotT, cold snap), and possibly if using the DUC, but it wouldn't be my default choice.

    So no real concrete answer from me I guess, as there's a bit of variance w/ the build and goals I have for the character.
    <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // A basic FF building guide (see 1st reply) // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
    - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
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    flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 12,752 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Also, for more pure numbers (which were updated w/ the crit/dodge nerfs), there's always Ayonachan's 'gift horse' for a reference:

    http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=250771
    <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // A basic FF building guide (see 1st reply) // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
    - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
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    helbjornhelbjorn Posts: 678 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Yes, I know the numbers from the charts, but it doesn't speak to the DR that may make a choice like Piercing insignificant. For example, the chart states that Piercing (+4.6) will boost you from base 50% to over 63% severity, which is a lot, but what about stacking 27% from spec choices on top of that? Does it diminish Piercing's contribution through DR? If so, how much? My experience with adding severity through Piercing prior to the nerf was that it was useless compared to crit chance.

    Unfortunately, Cryptic is still mixing % stats with meaningless number contributions, which is confusing.
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    tditstdits Posts: 666 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    helbjorn wrote: »
    Yes, I know the numbers from the charts, but it doesn't speak to the DR that may make a choice like Piercing insignificant. For example, the chart states that Piercing (+4.6) will boost you from base 50% to over 63% severity, which is a lot, but what about stacking 27% from spec choices on top of that? Does it diminish Piercing's contribution through DR? If so, how much? My experience with adding severity through Piercing prior to the nerf was that it was useless compared to crit chance.

    No, piercing gives a rating number, the percentages from specs are flat (except for Dex mastery, and a couple of others that give rating). Only rating causes DR. The rating is added together and then its percentage is determined based on DR, then it's added to your base severity, then the percents from specs are added in.
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    helbjornhelbjorn Posts: 678 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    tdits wrote: »
    No, piercing gives a rating number, the percentages from specs are flat (except for Dex mastery, and a couple of others that give rating). Only rating causes DR. The rating is added together and then its percentage is determined based on DR, then it's added to your base severity, then the percents from specs are added in.

    So the flat percentage contributions don't affect the DR of ratings? Good to know.
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    flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 12,752 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    helbjorn wrote: »
    So the flat percentage contributions don't affect the DR of ratings? Good to know.

    Yup, its partly why I take it on many builds w/o Dex Mastery (which also gives severity rating instead of %).
    <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // A basic FF building guide (see 1st reply) // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
    - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
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    helbjornhelbjorn Posts: 678 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I was able to satisfy my curiosity regarding Piercing gear on the PTS. With a Rank 7 Gambler's mod, Piercing is about a 3% DPS loss over Precision with the same Gambler's mod. This is with my usual non-DEX build using STR PSS and Brutality. And that's on paper. In actual parsing, it averages around a 5% loss.

    The severity gain is only about 3.3%, but the crit chance loss is about 4.9%.

    This unexpectedly low severity gain seems to imply that there is some DR effect between layering rating and flat percentages.
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    flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 12,752 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    3.3% sev gain from SCR Piercing is very low. Something seems off to me about that.

    I tested Severity's DR on live a while back, and I didn't find any evidence of a hidden DR for flat and rating bonuses. I got the results that the char sheet said I would:

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AvnMmKme9UuIdGkzbF84bjlsVmc1dkZrLTJGb084Zmc&usp=drive_web#gid=4

    Your findings are in direct contrast to what I observed. Did they do some hidden changes, or is this a PTS thing?


    edit: Oh wait, I think I know the discrepancy- my tests were done w/ 0 Offense. Yours prob weren't.

    Also ur build doesn't sound like it had high innate crit rating to still get that much from Agility. If its STR PSS w/ Juggy then crit/Dex won't be high into its DR (and ya prob also have really high offense if using TBD/AS loop).

    Yeah, unlike for you, those aren't my 'usual' builds, but it is more stuff to add to the 'Flow's gotta test it' pile.. which is getting quite large these days :/
    <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // A basic FF building guide (see 1st reply) // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
    - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
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    tditstdits Posts: 666 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    STR primary would also likely have at least 100% severity to begin with, so the extra cirt chance benefits it more than the severity. Especially since Severity is on the same damage layer as Offense.
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    flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 12,752 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Will do some testing when I get the time/energy, though the main issue w/ parsing full-on builds is that there is much more random variance to deal with per test that can throw off expected values. Will prob have to cut down to the basics, but that could also make the results less relevant.

    Yea, my assumption is that you want to gear crit/Dex till its heavy into DR (~33-34% listed). Whereas for Severity, you may want to pick either it or heavy Offense gearing- not both. Although Offense and Severity work to diff mechanics on the dmg formula, since they are on the same layer they mine as well be treated as an 'effective' shared DR, of sorts. I (or anyone) will have to see if that assumption holds water, though.
    <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // A basic FF building guide (see 1st reply) // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
    - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
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    helbjornhelbjorn Posts: 678 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    tdits wrote: »
    STR primary would also likely have at least 100% severity to begin with, so the extra cirt chance benefits it more than the severity. Especially since Severity is on the same damage layer as Offense.

    It does, but all of it is from spec-derived percentages (Brutality, Ruthless, and Merciless). The only severity rating in the whole build comes from the single piece of Piercing gear.
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    helbjornhelbjorn Posts: 678 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    flowcyto wrote: »
    Will prob have to cut down to the basics, but that could also make the results less relevant.

    From a previous post, it sounds like you've already done that. Now it seems a potential DR relationship with Offense needs to be investigated.
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    flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 12,752 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    helbjorn wrote: »
    From a previous post, it sounds like you've already done that. Now it seems a potential DR relationship with Offense needs to be investigated.

    Well, I didn't compare critR vs. severity in the test, and not for dps purposes. It was just to see what was happening w/ severity at the core since some posters here thought they saw some odd behavior with it (turns out, that odd behavior is prob the revamped Offense and Cryptic Math striking again).

    Yeah I'll prob start just by looking at what happens at various interactions between severity and offense. Will mix crit rating in there later. I doubt its a formal DR between the two- more just the funky shared layering behavior making them less palatable when mixed vs. critR, the latter not being in that same layer.
    <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // A basic FF building guide (see 1st reply) // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
    - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
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    monsterdaddymonsterdaddy Posts: 774 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I solve the severity issue. Longer post in EvilTaco's thread but basically you have DEX mastery with 10 severity rating already. The extra 4.6 is adding an extra 3.1% due to this.

    With DEX Mastery I would skip gearing for severity.
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    selpheaselphea Posts: 1,229 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    monsterdaddy wrote: »
    I solve the severity issue. Longer post in EvilTaco's thread but basically you have DEX mastery with 10 severity rating already. The extra 4.6 is adding an extra 3.1% due to this.

    With DEX Mastery I would skip gearing for severity.

    He said he was using a PSS Str build though, which is the strange part...
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    monsterdaddymonsterdaddy Posts: 774 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Helbjorn said he was using the original build which is Dex.
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    flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 12,752 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Although that may have been true in eviltaco's thread, in this one:
    I was able to satisfy my curiosity regarding Piercing gear on the PTS. With a Rank 7 Gambler's mod, Piercing is about a 3% DPS loss over Precision with the same Gambler's mod. This is with my usual non-DEX build using STR PSS and Brutality. And that's on paper. In actual parsing, it averages around a 5% loss.

    The severity gain is only about 3.3%, but the crit chance loss is about 4.9%.

    So its apparently a Str PSS build w/ Brutality he's citing here (and prob Juggy + TBD/AS loop).
    <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // A basic FF building guide (see 1st reply) // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
    - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
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    tditstdits Posts: 666 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    helbjorn wrote: »
    It does, but all of it is from spec-derived percentages (Brutality, Ruthless, and Merciless). The only severity rating in the whole build comes from the single piece of Piercing gear.

    The difference between 100% severity and 113.7% severity is only 7% DPS to begin with, and that difference gets even smaller when you add in offense being on the exact same layer. This has nothing to do with DR on severity rating.

    Of course the crit chance is going to give you more DPS.
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    selpheaselphea Posts: 1,229 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    flowcyto wrote: »
    Although that may have been true in eviltaco's thread, in this one:



    So its apparently a Str PSS build w/ Brutality he's citing here (and prob Juggy + TBD/AS loop).

    What I want to know is why it's a 3.3% severity gain. A 3.3% net DPS difference might make more sense, but with Juggy and TBD AS I still get the full 13.7% on character sheet from Legion's Piercing and 11.7% from Justice Precision using any tree - Dex with a non-Dex Mastery mastery, Strength or Ego.

    Something is off here - perhaps the old double spec tree bug? What else gives Severity rating? Can't be a Severity core since the OP claims to be using Gambler's.
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    flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 12,752 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    selphea wrote: »
    What I want to know is why it's a 3.3% severity gain. A 3.3% net DPS difference might make more sense, but with Juggy and TBD AS I still get the full 13.7% on character sheet from Legion's Piercing and 11.7% from Justice Precision using any tree - Dex with a non-Dex Mastery mastery, Strength or Ego.

    Something is off here - perhaps the old double spec tree bug? What else gives Severity rating? Can't be a Severity core since the OP claims to be using Gambler's.
    Yeah, I dunno either; that aspect of it still strikes me as odd. Obv if one is getting only 1/3rd-1/4th the normal benefit listed then yea it's going to be an inefficient option. I'm just not sure if I can replicate that scenario.
    <CO stuff> .: Petco :. // A basic FF building guide (see 1st reply) // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
    - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
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    tditstdits Posts: 666 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    selphea wrote: »
    What I want to know is why it's a 3.3% severity gain. A 3.3% net DPS difference might make more sense, but with Juggy and TBD AS I still get the full 13.7% on character sheet from Legion's Piercing and 11.7% from Justice Precision using any tree - Dex with a non-Dex Mastery mastery, Strength or Ego.

    Something is off here - perhaps the old double spec tree bug? What else gives Severity rating? Can't be a Severity core since the OP claims to be using Gambler's.


    Yeah, that does seem off. I wish he would post his exact gear & specs.
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    monsterdaddymonsterdaddy Posts: 774 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    You know, if he is using Brutality and 2/2 in Ruthless how can he possibly have only 78.1% in severity. Something is way off.
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    helbjornhelbjorn Posts: 678 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    selphea wrote: »
    What else gives Severity rating? Can't be a Severity core since the OP claims to be using Gambler's.

    Actually in my tests, I'm simulating a Piercing piece by putting the +4.6 severity core from Debugger in my Gloves of Precision. Would that make a difference? Why would it? It's still the only severity rating in the build.
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    helbjornhelbjorn Posts: 678 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    monsterdaddy wrote: »
    You know, if he is using Brutality and 2/2 in Ruthless how can he possibly have only 78.1% in severity. Something is way off.

    You're confusing the threads here. 78.1% severity is with eviltaco's build, not my PSS STR build. It has almost 100%.
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    selpheaselphea Posts: 1,229 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    helbjorn wrote: »
    Actually in my tests, I'm simulating a Piercing piece by putting the +4.6 severity core from Debugger in my Gloves of Precision. Would that make a difference? Why would it? It's still the only severity rating in the build.

    Not sure but if you look at my stat testing spreadsheet (seriously that thing is coming in useful for more things than I originally thought of)

    According to the character sheet I have 114.8% Severity in a Kinetic Manipulation Str/Con/Int build with a combined 634 points in Secondary SS. 11.7% of that came from Justice's Severity boost, and that's with Ye Olde Wardicator. Without Justice's Severity it should be 103.1%

    And for the actual numbers breakdown:

    7467 Non-crit / 1.17 Offense-boosted normal hit = 6382
    6382 x (1 base + 1.148 Severity + 0.17 Offense) = 14793 expected crit damage

    Compared to the actual crit damage of 14765, that's a 0.19% deviance, which can be attributed to rounding in the character sheet.

    So I can't say what happened with you, but something definitely happened, because Severity seems to be working fine for me. What is your Severity without a Piercing item or Severity Core?

    The average breakdown for a Primary Str with Wardicator character should be 50% Base + 25% Wardicator + approximately ~25% Brutality depending on secondary SS for something close to 100%.
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    monsterdaddymonsterdaddy Posts: 774 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I think it's time for a screenshot.
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