Heavy weapons with a touch of fire

jimhsua

Hi,

In the process of retconning my might build (might is nice, but doesn't "feel" powerful enough). Experimenting with heavy weapons (a tree that I'm not familiar with).

PowerHouse (Link to this build)

Name:

Archetype: Freeform

Super Stats:
Level 6: Strength (Primary)
Level 10: Recovery (Secondary)
Level 15: Constitution (Secondary)

Talents:
Level 1: The Savage
Level 6:
Level 9:
Level 12:
Level 15:
Level 18:
Level 21:

Powers:
Level 1: Wield Earth
Level 1: Unstoppable (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 6: Mighty Leap
Level 8: Conviction (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 11: Enrage (Endorphin Rush)
Level 14: Demolish (Below the Belt)
Level 17: Annihilate (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 20: Brimstone (Rank 2, Aftershock)
Level 23: Thermal Reverberation
Level 26: Bountiful Chi Resurgence (Resurgent Reiki)
Level 29: Ego Surge (Nimble Mind)
Level 32: Masterful Dodge
Level 35: Unleashed Rage (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 38: Energy Shield (Laser Knight)

Travel Powers:
Level 6: Acrobatics
Level 35: Flight

Specializations:
Strength: Physical Peak (1/3)
Strength: Quick Recovery (2/2)
Strength: Aggression (2/2)
Strength: Brutality (2/2)
Strength: Juggernaut (3/3)
Warden: Fortified Gear (3/3)
Warden: Ruthless (2/2)
Warden: Upper Hand (2/3)
Warden: The Best Defense (3/3)
Vindicator: Aggressive Stance (2/2)
Vindicator: Merciless (3/3)
Vindicator: Focused Strikes (3/3)
Vindicator: Modified Gear (2/2)
Mastery: Strength Mastery (1/1)

Performance in powerhouse is ... better than expected. I usually don't like running offensive passives in powerhouse. Energy management is awesome.

Q:

1. I'm focusing on CON equipment for juggernaut, as well as a little strength. That OK?
2. Can someone explain the heavy weapon single attacks? I don't like the 120 degree 10 foot cones, so Brimstone (and synergy w/ Thermal reverb).
3. Suggestions what to rank for those last 5 points? (2 for the travel power, so 3).
4. I really want to try something else other than laser knight ... so Parry synergy w/ BCR? (but I don't have DEX). EV? etc.

flowcyto

Unstoppable will help ur energy management w/ some Rec added in. Unfortunately, Thermal Reverb won't be adding much extra energy since ur not stating much End for it. Can still work as is, ofc, cause Unstoppable + Enrage should give most/enough energy in themselves.

Might is technically better for single-target dps than HW, cause of Haymaker, but HW can still do okay- more for aoe dps, though. Demolish's buff will help a good bit. Brimstone can keep a flashfire patch on the ground for TR energy, but its not as good a dps spell for single-target to have in the rotation. Eruption's magma burst adv can also proc clinging flames, but its a low rate and not really reliable, so it wouldn't work well for TR by itself.

After some initial testing on my Devastator, Onslaught adds a good bit more dps than Juggernaut w/ decent enough Strength, but Juggy is quite better for defense w/ Con (comparing roughly 1 Str : 1 Con here)- up to you what to prioritize.

Single-target rotation for pure HW would be: refresh Arc of Ruin's debuff + disorient, use Eruption on/near cd, Annihilate in between. Since ur using a Might/HW mix, you'd be refreshing Below the Belt w/ Demolish, using Brimstone to keep TR rolling, and otherwise using Annihilate. If ya want to quickly build up 3x knock resistance on CC-able mobs so Annihilate doesn't KB, ya can tap Brimstone 3 times on them.

Extra adv points can go into ranking up Ego Surge, the block, or BCR- or get NttG on the lunge. If ya have one extra point floating ya can put accel metabolism on the end builder, or just rank up the 2nd travel power once.

Any block can work. LK is good for the build, Parry would be okay too. Other options w/ some side benefits are Retaliation_Guard, Force Shield/Sheath, and Ebon Void w/ VD.

(I dun think Upper Hand is working properly, btw, but I'll need to test that a bit more to make sure; a good option is Elusive, or Tenacious when solo).

Oh, and ya can build up energy w/ TR out of combat just by full-charging Brimstone w/ Aftershock and standing near the fire patch. Dun need to wait till combat to start at full energy in Alerts.

jimhsua

Thank you. Had fun testing out the build in a Warlord alert (Melee role) after the entire team ditched ... almost made it with 3000 HP to go, but got knocked into a fire patch. Though no, soloing Warlord/Grav/whatever was not what I had in mind for this build; have other toons for that.

TR efficiency or no, Brimstone made a large difference in energy management ... def. feel the constraint when a patch wasn't up. Of course force shield + sheath can mitigate that, but as DPS I can't reliably depend on getting hit.

Still debating annihilate vs. haymaker. Love the hits for haymaker ... not the energy efficiency. Both fit with concept. Going to try haymaker again with the better energy management in this build.

helbjorn

Don't forget about Burning Chi Fist - it's a high DPS melee punch that, knock-resistant mobs aside, has higher DPS than Haymaker and no knock.

jimhsua

helbjorn wrote: »

Don't forget about Burning Chi Fist - it's a high DPS melee punch that, knock-resistant mobs aside, has higher DPS than Haymaker and no knock.

Good suggestion ... though I still need something to build enrage. Need to see how well brimstone taps by itself does that in combination with single target powers and effective DPS.

I added EV, but may decide to remove it, because I can't depend on getting hit (and maintaining stacks). Probably Parry or ES/LK then because those work when attacking. On the other hand, if I get threat, it really does help a lot.

jimhsua

Updates:

Swapped out TR for MSA and changed SS from REC to INT. Conviction and lunge have short cooldowns, so that works. Not having Brimstone in rotation ups DPS just a bit on long boss fights.

Settled again on Energy Shield + LK for the block. EV wasn't proccing, and I get more DPS if I don't have to block, even with the dmg penalty.

Swapped out BCR for Ascension ... wasn't dodging much if at all, and ascension also boosts conviction healing. Will pick up an elixir sometime or another if I can convert my stash of 1M Q into something actually useful, and for the overly inflated Q prices to drop a bit.

jimhsua

Updates:

Survivability on grav is still not where I want it to be (yea I know, melee DPS is supposed to be rough on that particular content). Three things I'll try:

A diff offensive passive: Earth Form or Stormbringer. Earth Form especially seems to be well suited to gravitar, as well as most PvE content.

Night Warrior: Always wanted to try it out. And the % bonus to charge can come in handy w/ Haymaker. How do rampage bosses handle stealth though?

AOPM: As always. Fits thematically, but does it really fit a might toon? Would help w/ energy though.

I'll probably have the passive as a last choice, to facilitate swapping. Also a block in 2nd to last, in case I decide to take force sheath to handle any remaining energy problems.

flowcyto

I use Earth Form on one of my HW dps toons- specifically for Gravi. Makes the fight way easier just by itself. Does lower the fire dmg aspect, but if Gravi is a priority, that's a smaller price to pay.

Warden's Elusive works well vs. all the AoE she does. I haven't found Upper Hand to actually work as the tooltip states, so I'd skip that for Elusive.

NW, like Quarry, I dun find to be good enough defensively for Gravi w/ a melee dps. If tackling her w/ it, I'd add at least TK or EM's dodge buff and BCR/RR + MD.. else the dodge rate is too low and too prone to RNG spikes. I'm not sure she ignores NW's stealth if you attempt to LoS_out-range her, but it strikes me as too iffy a prospect. Palliate and EM do still work if you get their aggro drops to work if ya want to reset her (she'll be healed to the next highest bar of health she was at, then). Any build can get out-of-combat healing by LoS_out-ranging her, though that's ofc not a threat wipe.

AoPM is also rather weak in terms of defenses. The health boost is good, and the energy boosts are great, but she'll still hit you pretty hard if ya dun block. I find I usually dun have too many energy issues vs. her as HW melee, just cause ya gotta block so many times and that gives ya extra energy (moreso if using an EF like Earth Form vs. the crushing dmg).

tdits

I was under the impression that Elusive didn't affect bosses. Particularly Gravitar.

salutage14xx

helbjorn wrote: »

Don't forget about Burning Chi Fist - it's a high DPS melee punch that, knock-resistant mobs aside, has higher DPS than Haymaker and no knock.

If that attack can hit more then 20K as much as my haymaker does i would be impressed.

flowcyto

tdits wrote: »

I was under the impression that Elusive didn't affect bosses. Particularly Gravitar.

Well, from my brief test of it a while ago, it seemed to be working vs. Gravi, at least to some degree. It may be subject to some amount of DR w/ really high passive dmg resist (like from blocking), but it seems to work at least at base:

http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=268561

tdits

flowcyto wrote: »

Well, from my brief test of it a while ago, it seemed to be working vs. Gravi, at least to some degree. It may be subject to some amount of DR w/ really high passive dmg resist (like from blocking), but it seems to work at least at base:

http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=268561

Oh, cool.

jimhsua

More updates on this build: Swapping Earth Form in place of Unstoppable, energy management is no longer where I want it. Current INT is 100 or so for MSA. Current DPS is just under 3K (with LK though). Gearing currently mostly Heroic, 5xCON, 1xSTR, assorted secondaries.

Stats:



Overall dmg:



Haymaker:



Note the dips - that's where I ran out of energy (between MSA and enrage procs)

Energy gain:



Seems OK at glancing, but haymaker just takes too much energy.

Will try CoAP later if that's the only option; I lose mobility, but powerhouse testing should establish if that's important.

PS As you can tell .. I like data.

carrionbaggage

Could you post the current build (or did I miss it in the thread somewhere?) along with a specific gear list?

jimhsua

This should be it from the top of my head. Don't remember the exact talents though.

PowerHouse (Link to this build)

Name:

Archetype: Freeform

Super Stats:
Level 6: Strength (Primary)
Level 10: Intelligence (Secondary)
Level 15: Constitution (Secondary)

Talents:
Level 1: The Savage
Level 6: Physical Conditioning
Level 9: Body and Mind
Level 12: Healthy Mind
Level 15: Relentless
Level 18: Negotiator
Level 21: Covert Ops Training

Powers:
Level 1: Wield Earth
Level 1: Unleashed Rage (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 6: Mighty Leap
Level 8: Conviction (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 11: Molecular Self-Assembly
Level 14: Demolish (Below the Belt)
Level 17: Enrage (Endorphin Rush)
Level 20: Haymaker (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 23: Brimstone (Rank 2, Aftershock)
Level 26: Ascension (Rank 2)
Level 29: Ego Surge (Nimble Mind)
Level 32: Masterful Dodge
Level 35: Earth Form (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 38: Energy Shield (Rank 2, Laser Knight)

Travel Powers:
Level 6: Acrobatics (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 35: Flight (Rank 2)

Specializations:
Strength: Physical Peak (3/3)
Strength: Aggression (2/2)
Strength: Brutality (2/2)
Strength: Juggernaut (3/3)
Warden: Fortified Gear (3/3)
Warden: Ruthless (2/2)
Warden: Elusive (2/2)
Warden: The Best Defense (3/3)
Vindicator: Aggressive Stance (2/2)
Vindicator: Merciless (3/3)
Vindicator: Focused Strikes (3/3)
Vindicator: Modified Gear (2/2)
Mastery: Strength Mastery (1/1)


Equipment:
Heroic Precision - 1xSTR, 1xCON, 2xImpact
Legion's Def - 2xCON, 2xImpact
Legion's Efficiency - 2xCON, 2xImpact

Secondaries: Purple STR/Crit, Purple Int/Def, Purple Rec/93cooldown/46cost

Energy data:

SOURCE TYPE DAMAGE BASEDAMAGE ENCDPS AVERAGE MINHIT MAXHIT HITS AVGDELAY CRIT% BLOCK% DODGE% RESIST%
All All 2,662 0 13.24 21.64 16 30 123 1.63 0% 0% 0% 0%
Molecular Self-Assembly 1,178 0 5.86 19.00 19 19 62 3.21 0% 0% 0% 0%
Wield Earth 794 0 3.95 20.89 16 22 38 4.98 0% 0% 0% 0%
Enraged! 690 0 3.43 30.00 30 30 23 8.54 0% 0% 0% 0%



What I would like to do is try STR/DEX/CON and see if any form of energy management will enable sufficient uptime. May not be a realistic goal however unless I go AOPM and the like... I could try Thermal Reverb again with Brimstone with minimal investment in END (not as a SS), and see how that parses.

jimhsua

Swapped INT above for DEX, took CoAP instead of MSA. DPS increased from 3K to 3942.21, virtually all because of energy. (Still heavily geared for defense). Still have the same secondaries. Rotation is 1xDemolish, 3xHaymaker, AOs when available.

SOURCE TYPE DAMAGE BASEDAMAGE ENCDPS AVERAGE MINHIT MAXHIT HITS AVGDELAY CRIT% BLOCK% DODGE% RESIST%
All All 2,748 0 17.05 13.74 11 25 200 0.82 0% 0% 0% 0%
Circle of Arcane Power 1,749 0 10.85 11.00 11 11 159 1.02 0% 0% 0% 0%
Enraged! 700 0 4.34 25.00 25 25 28 5.73 0% 0% 0% 0%
Wield Earth 299 0 1.85 23.00 23 23 13 9.20 0% 0% 0% 0%

flowcyto

Makes sense it increased that much w/o energy issues. Its tough to afford Haymaker w/o AoPM, Unstoppable or Defiance energy, or something more drastic like CoAP.

jimhsua

Well I got 2 pieces of Justice from F&I, and took Unstoppable now that grav's out of the rotation. (Retconning back and forth should be pretty cheap since it's the last power). DPS up to 4807.52 (even with bad luck on crits), defense still at 100%. Finally happy with might for now. Going to try content next; works fine in F&I (even though I took some big AOEs), trying on others.



Exact build:

PowerHouse (Link to this build)

Name: Elcaryn Ebonwing

Archetype: Freeform

Super Stats:
Level 6: Strength (Primary)
Level 10: Dexterity (Secondary)
Level 15: Constitution (Secondary)

Talents:
Level 1: The Savage
Level 6: Acrobat
Level 9: Martial Focus
Level 12: Physical Conditioning
Level 15: Impresario
Level 18: Quick Recovery
Level 21: Covert Ops Training

Powers:
Level 1: Wield Earth
Level 1: Unleashed Rage (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 6: Mighty Leap
Level 8: Enrage (Endorphin Rush)
Level 11: Conviction (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 14: Masterful Dodge
Level 17: Ego Surge (Nimble Mind)
Level 20: Demolish (Below the Belt)
Level 23: Brimstone (Rank 2, Aftershock)
Level 26: Haymaker (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 29: Ascension (Rank 2)
Level 32: Energy Shield (Rank 2, Laser Knight)
Level 35: Circle of Arcane Power
Level 38: Unstoppable (Rank 2, Rank 3)

Travel Powers:
Level 6: Acrobatics (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 35: Flight (Rank 2)

Specializations:
Strength: Physical Peak (3/3)
Strength: Aggression (2/2)
Strength: Brutality (2/2)
Strength: Juggernaut (3/3)
Warden: Fortified Gear (3/3)
Warden: Ruthless (2/2)
Warden: Elusive (2/2)
Warden: The Best Defense (3/3)
Vindicator: Aggressive Stance (2/2)
Vindicator: Merciless (3/3)
Vindicator: Focused Strikes (3/3)
Vindicator: Modified Gear (2/2)
Mastery: Strength Mastery (1/1)

carrionbaggage

It sounds like you've found some nice solutions. Tweaking Haymaker builds is always rough, since there are so many viable variations. For what it's worth, this might be an alternative to CoAP. In the STR/CON/INT version with MSA, you could stabilize the energy by:

-getting STR to around 400. If you can complete that Justice set, you should be able to retain 10k health by swapping Aggression for Swole. You could swap out that REC secondary gear, unless you're trying to fire Unleashed Rage from resting equilibrium.
-replacing Demolish with Rising Knee (Flowing Strikes) and running a chain of Rising Knee>Haymaker>Haymaker. Leave no groin un-smashed.
-replacing one or both of the Impact Prisms in your primary utility with Gambler's Gems.

You would lose some DPS compared to your posted CoAP version (down to around 4k, I would guess, depending on your gear; could go higher with a Depleted Uranium Core), but it would be far more user-friendly for content that requires you to move out of the Circle. Worth consideration, I suppose.

bravehoptoad

With Unstoppable wouldn't STR/CON/REC be pretty much a complete energy solution?

carrionbaggage

bravehoptoad wrote: »

With Unstoppable wouldn't STR/CON/REC be pretty much a complete energy solution?

It's certainly a viable option, but one of the frustrating things about Haymaker energy management is the internal cooldown on the energy returns from both Enrage and Unstoppable. When charge-spamming Haymaker, you'll get an energy return every 2 Haymakers. It can definitely work, but in my experience it usually requires gearing more cost discount than some other alternatives. That's not necessarily a bad thing, though, as Unstoppable works better with the Demolish>Haymaker x3 chain compared to an MSA-reliant build.

I think the biggest disadvantage is that you're stuck with Unstoppable's rather lackluster damage absorption, as opposed to the defensive benefits of Earth Form or Way of the Warrior. Though that's a moot point if you don't mind the hassle of switching to a different passive with CoAP for hard-hitting rampages, as the OP is considering.

Lots of pros and cons to consider, depending on what kind of content you want to run.

jimhsua

carrionbaggage wrote: »

It sounds like you've found some nice solutions. Tweaking Haymaker builds is always rough, since there are so many viable variations. For what it's worth, this might be an alternative to CoAP. In the STR/CON/INT version with MSA, you could stabilize the energy by:

-getting STR to around 400. If you can complete that Justice set, you should be able to retain 10k health by swapping Aggression for Swole. You could swap out that REC secondary gear, unless you're trying to fire Unleashed Rage from resting equilibrium.
-replacing Demolish with Rising Knee (Flowing Strikes) and running a chain of Rising Knee>Haymaker>Haymaker. Leave no groin un-smashed.
-replacing one or both of the Impact Prisms in your primary utility with Gambler's Gems.

You would lose some DPS compared to your posted CoAP version (down to around 4k, I would guess, depending on your gear; could go higher with a Depleted Uranium Core), but it would be far more user-friendly for content that requires you to move out of the Circle. Worth consideration, I suppose.

Thanks, I was just talking to Selphea about Rising Knee actually ... Would be a good starter for an unarmed/might build. Maybe when I decide to burn another retcon in the future...

selphea

jimhsua wrote: »

Thanks, I was just talking to Selphea about Rising Knee actually ... Would be a good starter for an unarmed/might build. Maybe when I decide to burn another retcon in the future...

If you're only going halfway down 200G should be able to cover it. That's about 1 hour of Normal Viko farming during G hour, or rather, if I farm during G hour I just stop at 200. Too monotonous. That said, it wouldn't be a half bad build test either

flowcyto

I have a toon that uses the RK/FS combo w/ Haymaker and MSA. Its good, but he doesn't have the gear to make it work w/o some energy building (not using Unstoppable). Dropping Demolish/BtB does fix the energy issue, but yea it's sub-optimal dps either way.

If I had to pick between the 2 options, I'd prob find a way to stick w/ Demolish just cause its debuff is much more helpful in groups vs. RS's.

Too bad the only combo that works w/ Enrage is Cleave, cause Setup could be another option to go w/ Haymaker that's prob not as energy-intensive.

carrionbaggage

flowcyto wrote: »

Too bad the only combo that works w/ Enrage is Cleave, cause Setup could be another option to go w/ Haymaker that's prob not as energy-intensive.

Though the faster combo attacks don't directly synergize with Enrage, one nice side-effect of using a combo between Haymakers is how it works with the internal cooldowns on Enrage/Unstoppable. Where you'd normally only get an energy return every other Haymaker, you get an energy return every Haymaker if you add a combo in-between.

Just to throw it out there, STR/CON/DEX with Form of the Tiger (mods split evenly between DEX and CON) is another workable variation, running a chain of Dragon Uppercut>Haymaker>Haymaker>Demolish. DPS is roughly on par with the Demolish>Haymaker x3 chain with Enrage, due to the extra Crit Strike from DEX and Crit Severity from Brutality. The downsides, compared to the Enraged route, are lower knock resist and the loss of Endorphin Rush.

jimhsua

carrionbaggage wrote: »

Though the faster combo attacks don't directly synergize with Enrage, one nice side-effect of using a combo between Haymakers is how it works with the internal cooldowns on Enrage/Unstoppable. Where you'd normally only get an energy return every other Haymaker, you get an energy return every Haymaker if you add a combo in-between.

Just to throw it out there, STR/CON/DEX with Form of the Tiger (mods split evenly between DEX and CON) is another workable variation, running a chain of Dragon Uppercut>Haymaker>Haymaker>Demolish. DPS is roughly on par with the Demolish>Haymaker x3 chain with Enrage, due to the extra Crit Strike from DEX and Crit Severity from Brutality. The downsides, compared to the Enraged route, are lower knock resist and the loss of Endorphin Rush.

Yes, Form of the Tiger is an option I considered as well.

I'll see if I can't get some testing done on PTS with these suggestions sometime (and make these pretty graphs while I'm at it). You're welcome to participate / contribute your own combatlogs.

selphea

I meant test driving the build not test driving the scaling :O!