I'm not going to bother replying to 3 walls of text. Suffice to say whatever I bring up is just going to be a rehash of what I said before, so I'm done here. All the best with your case to the devs.
Fair play, it is quite a lot to address. I think it was both refreshing and tiresome to have this debate all over again, but thanks for sticking with it as long as you have.
Thanks for the well wishes also, I'm sure to say they are tired of hearing this argument would be a pretty large understatement, so whatever they plan on doing with PFF in order to fix it and bring it up to scratch is their business.
I just hope it all turns out well. Just for the record, I don't think Compassion should boost PFF shield strength, it doesn't boost Regeneration's healing so it shouldn't boost PFF.
I guess it's fair to say we see PFF in two very different lights, you seem to view it as okay because you can super support it.
I don't use these unnecessary powers because I don't have to build that hard around other defensive passives to make them work.
Maybe we just want different things for PFF. I want it to be on par with other defensive passives, you want more/better band-aids.
Oh well at the end of the day, I'll say it was very nice to see how good supporting powers can be used in conjunction with Compassion and 2GM and Ebon Sigils!
It would have been nicer to see you run a real and more representative PFF build in relation to defensive passives, but since you seem unwilling I'm not going to badger you for it nor make a vid to prove my point which is already a blatant fact, besides it's your time which has been taken to make these builds and vids.
It's just unfortunate that you haven't proved what you set out to, at least in my own estimation.
You can test what we're saying any time you like, I don't need proof from you that it's bad, I've worked through it enough to acquire that knowledge, without the use of "Go Go Compassion + Super Bubble Spam + Ebon Sigils etc"
On topics other than PFF.
What I'm trying to prove
Honestly I was trying to find what PFF can do that no other defensive passive is able to do, and that's what I found. No other defensive passive can "Go Go Compassion + Super Bubble Spam + Ebon Sigils etc" while bringing Lightning Storm down.
Once you see the stat split you'll know that the combination I used cannot possibly be done with any other passive - a Hybrid with the EHP of a Tank and the energy management of a Support character while retaining decent DPS. No other passive gets the same kind of mileage out of Six Rec Mods:
Attack choices
For attack choices I was feeling my way around there. I could easily have replaced it with something else because with 466 Rec to get energy returns from Overdrive and Compassion, the build doesn't really need to worry about energy.
So yea, could've been done with Lightning Arc, Conflag, Assault Rifle, TK Assault... I just settled for 2GM because the set I tried before that was Epidemic/Devour Essence and it turns out DE is kind of buggy for building Compassion. I wanted Lifedrain too but Lifedrain doesn't build Overdrive, same with Sword Cyclone and Celestial Conduit. I swear the powers that I want to use with PFF give me more problems than PFF itself.
On builds using support powers
It's funny you bring up Crystal's main build when it actually uses a ton of support powers as well. They're called synergies and I do build with a LOT of them for every character, whether Shadow Form with Smoke Bomb and Radiant Sigils or Lightning Reflex with Thundering Kicks and CWK and so on.
2: dex/con/rec defiance can totally throw out any power you want it to. PFF is not special in that regard. And if we're gonna say "use defiance without con" I suggest you adapt it to "use defiance without enrage". Because nobody's saying don't use PRE as a superstat. They're saying don't use a form, and enrage goes with defiance really well, just like compassion and pff. However, a defiance cascader with concentration is totally doable. I've got half a mind to do a double blade pff user with tech swords and laser knight, just to prove that you can get the same level of efficacy with a theme build. But, again, it involves a ton of protecting the passive.
Do me a favor, if you don't mind? Try that build you're running, but remove pff entirely from your bar. Lemme know if you're still surviving the same. I think *that* is really what the issue is here. I've run double bubblers in pvp before, you could have AoAC as a passive for all your passive matters with one of those things. I've seen one tank capture the flag for 15 minutes straight, with AoPM. Even as someone who will only take 3 attack powers at the most for most of their characters, I still think the amount of support you've got on that is a bit extreme. My tanks take offensive clickies and maybe a defensive panic button. Some self healing, but nowhere near 5-6 powers just to drop support on myself. My offensive characters take defensive clickies to hybrid themselves. I've *never* had to stack that much tank on top of a tank, do you even have an active offense? How much damage are you throwing?
Seems like you might even be better off just stacking AoRP on that thing and calling it a day. You're already a healer in just about every respect.
In game, I am @EvilTaco. Happily killing purple gang members since May 2008. RIP Caine
That's not the usual PFF build at all, that's a DPS/Support hybrid. You'd frankly be better off running one of the aura powers in Hybrid role. Or even, gasp, Medical Nanites. Hell with that build you probably don't even need a passive. I have a question though, if you're gonna be stacking REC that hard, and REC scales Compassion, why Primary PRE when you can Primary DEX and get Expose Weakness & Deadly Aim?
Also, I'm not even sure why they let PFF scale with Compassion. They don't let Regen scale with heal buffs. I think they should remove PFFs direct interaction with Shield % buffs and then buff the base shielding & regen on it, and give it a % resistance that goes up as the shields go down. Or flat damage reduction that scales up as the shield goes down. I'd rather not have dodge though because I'd prefer if PFF's innate defense was reliable without having to pick up Evasive Maneuvers.
PS. Ravenforce, all of my suggestions for PFF have assumed that the in combat regen bug is going to be fixed regardless.
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That Dork In The Suspenders, signing out.
That's not the usual PFF build at all, that's a DPS/Support hybrid. You'd frankly be better off running one of the aura powers in Hybrid role. Or even, gasp, Medical Nanites. Hell with that build you probably don't even need a passive. I have a question though, if you're gonna be stacking REC that hard, and REC scales Compassion, why Primary PRE when you can Primary DEX and get Expose Weakness & Deadly Aim?
^ This. Exactly my point Selphea. You haven't run a normal PFF build nor showcased what PFF can do. As I pointed out in my three walls o text.
Also, I'm not even sure why they let PFF scale with Compassion. They don't let Regen scale with heal buffs. I think they should remove PFFs direct interaction with Shield % buffs and then buff the base shielding & regen on it, and give it a % resistance that goes up as the shields go down. Or flat damage reduction that scales up as the shield goes down. I'd rather not have dodge though because I'd prefer if PFF's innate defense was reliable without having to pick up Evasive Maneuvers.
Yup. Said this countless times before, but nothing has changed. I've never liked the fact that Compassion grants PFF a false increase, which is why I never take Compassion with PFF.
PS. Ravenforce, all of my suggestions for PFF have assumed that the in combat regen bug is going to be fixed regardless.
As have my own, suggestions I see on forums now are basically some version that either myself or a few others have suggested in the past and even then the shield regen bug wasn't fixed lol.
This bug is referred to as an active bug so whenever they apply some sort of fix to it, it either adapts or generates a new bug with the passive. My guess is now they are taking their time.
2: dex/con/rec defiance can totally throw out any power you want it to. PFF is not special in that regard. And if we're gonna say "use defiance without con" I suggest you adapt it to "use defiance without enrage". Because nobody's saying don't use PRE as a superstat. They're saying don't use a form, and enrage goes with defiance really well, just like compassion and pff. However, a defiance cascader with concentration is totally doable. I've got half a mind to do a double blade pff user with tech swords and laser knight, just to prove that you can get the same level of efficacy with a theme build. But, again, it involves a ton of protecting the passive.
Glad to see I'm not the only one who has taken issue with this.
I did say Selphea needs to test an original/normal PFF build. The concept for that vid is a support tank. Why should PFF be forced only to be a support tank role by taking nearly every possible power to buff and stack on it in such an extreme fashion? <-- Same question I asked in my wall o texts...
Do me a favor, if you don't mind? Try that build you're running, but remove pff entirely from your bar. Lemme know if you're still surviving the same. I think *that* is really what the issue is here. I've run double bubblers in pvp before, you could have AoAC as a passive for all your passive matters with one of those things. I've seen one tank capture the flag for 15 minutes straight, with AoPM. Even as someone who will only take 3 attack powers at the most for most of their characters, I still think the amount of support you've got on that is a bit extreme. My tanks take offensive clickies and maybe a defensive panic button. Some self healing, but nowhere near 5-6 powers just to drop support on myself. My offensive characters take defensive clickies to hybrid themselves. I've *never* had to stack that much tank on top of a tank, do you even have an active offense? How much damage are you throwing?
You seriously do not need a passive with that much build around. Hell...you could take Electric Form with that. PFF isn't doing anything here but increasing overall bubble strength...and even then your stacking bubbles out classes your PFF by a reasonable amount.
If anything all that video is done is to show people how much PFF requires help.
Seems like you might even be better off just stacking AoRP on that thing and calling it a day. You're already a healer in just about every respect.
TI have a question though, if you're gonna be stacking REC that hard, and REC scales Compassion, why Primary PRE when you can Primary DEX and get Expose Weakness & Deadly Aim?
2 reasons really. For one, Dex isn't going to give you 316.9 Defense for 75% Resistance.
For another, I originally went with primary Ego using Shadow of Doubt instead of Ebon Sigils. It was actually good enough for Andrith at that point, but I'm aiming for Frosty-rated tanking here, so I figured might as well throw in Pre and Ebon sigils - they have very similar specs - and try to facetank Valerian's Soulstrike. That's the only easily-accessible extreme single target DPS on PTS.
And yes, in that regard I really don't care whether this is a "normal" tank or whether it fits into anyone's notions of a "PFF build" or not. What I do care is whether I can hold aggro with just 2 attacks (will likely put CC and CS in final build) and whether 9k bubbles and Ebon Sigils are enough mitigation for Frost Dagger.
As I said, I'm still feeling my way around here so there's no theme... yet. I am thinking Dual Claws with Warden Mastery for the final build, or maybe straight up Fireball UA and Conflag. The obvious choice for Frosty would be Thundering Kicks of course but I do what some theme (and damage) in there. Otoh Ascension as an AO is probably overkill. Pity Imbue has no Break Free though. Will probably go with Intensity since Dex is so low
And yes I could easily have done what everyone else is doing i.e. EM, Laser Knight but well... that's what everyone else is doing :O It's not how I roll. I heal with Concentration form. I use Shadowform TK DPS when the meta is all about Ice/Fire and Lightning Arc. And next up I want to tank Frosty with PFF :O
Okay, just to clear things up here. This is, as far as I can tell, how the argument has gone so far.:
You've given the impression that you don't believe PFF really needs to be fixed outside of the regen bug, because it works for your build.
Your build would function just as well with no passive and do better with any Aura or Medical Nanites.
No one else thinks that's a valid test case.
You refuse to make a PFF build that doesn't rely on the current (IMHO poorly thought out) heal % interactions and double bubbles.
You still think this proves that PFF isn't broken.
Is any of this incorrect? If so, please clarify.
PFF needs a fix.
I don't care whether this is a "valid test case" or not. I don't want to waste time arguing for or against this issue. Fixing the game is the dev's job and if you want a change to happen please talk to the devs about it, not me. I am not a dev.
Despite needing a fix, I want to use PFF to tank Frosty in its current form. I don't want to wait potentially years to tank a boss that is here right now if the capabilities to tank that boss with PFF that are here today. When a buff happens, tanking Frosty gets better. Win-win.
If you want to tank Frosty with no passive or Aura or Medi-nanites please feel free. I would love to see new innovations in builds but I do not claim to have the knowledge to do so at present and make no claims nor guarantees about the efficacy of my build under those conditions.
I am very disappointed that PFF "experts" seem more intent on arguing about the build's validity than helping to think of ideas to tank Frosty and other high end content.
Well, if its ultimately about Frosty, as I've prob mentioned before, EB/VD maintenance can pretty much make any generic tank build much more Frosty-viable w/o many/any other changes- in contrast to 100% dodge builds which are more restrictive, and LK which requires constant melee and better gear to get the most out of the 25% multiplier. Aggro may still be an issue (it would also be if ur spamming bubbles on urself, though), but there's some means to work around that.
Its what I use to make Regen work vs. daggers, and its fine if done right. I imagine w/ even half the support you took (say the sigils and one extra bubble) and VDx10 ya could make PFF work vs. him- provided ya still have good ADs and max HP to fall back on (as most tank builds vs. him should).
How about without blocking? Any idea how much his damage drops with Ebon Sigils?
The idea is I want an improvement over the LR tank. The LR tank is vulnerable when Spired, but with access to two ADs and if pre-double-bubbled I'd imagine PFF to be safer if it works.
The issue is whether base damage after Sigils and Crippling Challenge, -9k from double bubbles +1400EHP per 3sec is low enough for PFF to withstand 4 undodged Daggers (one covered by the 10k Field Surge bubble) and 5 dodged Daggers (MD) before the next Field Surge.
I am very disappointed that PFF "experts" seem more intent on arguing about the build's validity than helping to think of ideas to tank Frosty and other high end content.
Hey, I'm not arguing anything. People play the builds they want to play. I have no problem with that. As far as tanking high end content. No problem for my PFF tank. What *is* the problem is that I have to change *my* build to tank Frosticus. Honestly, that's f-ing stupid that I should have to do that. You want to tank Frosticus with a PFF build of your design, by all means. Go for it. I salute your dedication. After over three years of fighting for PFF and, as you said, TALKING TO THE DEVS...we can clearly see that nothing that was fixed stuck around. So I'm done. If anyone else wants to fight for the fixing of the power, more power to them. I'll be around for build advice.
Advocating this power has completely drained me of the will to even log in some days.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
Can't say about the ebon sigils since I haven't tired it vs. him yet (I've read before that the -dmg% portion of it doesn't affect him, but that source could have been wrong- and I hope it is). Ya could also add Ego Sleep w/ adv for both Fear and Disorient debuffs in one simple move.
And keep in mind ya dun have to continually block to maintain VD- once its stacked ya can refresh it just by taping it during an ice cage tick or w/e.
Me and a group tested Ebon Sigils. They work exactly as advertised subject to the regular DR formula: (Regular Base Damage/(1+ total debuff%) = Net Damage)
I will note that the Combat Logs were wonky. Usually I can see the debuffs in the (#####) portion, i.e. with CC and Fear his 20,000 gets turned into (15,384). With Ebon Sigils (and CC/Fear) it went down to ~12K-13K which does NOT jive with the amount of Sigils debuffs. BUT, my net damage was reduced by an unknown 33% more so...
Overall net, the final damage number made sense per the formula above. Usually, Elle the Ghost Blade gets hit for ~5K undodged, with Sigils it was ~3K, very nice debuff!
@selphea, all tanks are more vulnerable when Spired -- Parry, Laser Knight, Ebon Void all go bye bye. Simple solution is to save MD for a Spire. I can attest that his Spires come only once every 50+ seconds, probably every 60 seconds is the actual recycle time.
Me and a group tested Ebon Sigils. They work exactly as advertised subject to the regular DR formula: (Regular Base Damage/(1+ total debuff%) = Net Damage)
I will note that the Combat Logs were wonky. Usually I can see the debuffs in the (#####) portion, i.e. with CC and Fear his 20,000 gets turned into (15,384). With Ebon Sigils (and CC/Fear) it went down to ~12K-13K which does NOT jive with the amount of Sigils debuffs. BUT, my net damage was reduced by an unknown 33% more so...
Overall net, the final damage number made sense per the formula above. Usually, Elle the Ghost Blade gets hit for ~5K undodged, with Sigils it was ~3K, very nice debuff!
@selphea, all tanks are more vulnerable when Spired -- Parry, Laser Knight, Ebon Void all go bye bye. Simple solution is to save MD for a Spire. I can attest that his Spires come only once every 50+ seconds, probably every 60 seconds is the actual recycle time.
Thanks! Sounds like this might actually be doable :O
Whelp, at least now we have yet another option to add to the pile for Frosty: Ebon Sigils w/ Pres gearing. Cool
It actually works very well for the sigils cause the only AoE I think Frosty does is the ice cage, and that's prob low enough dmg and too small to reach em. The shatter may also reach, but I dun find those to hit hard either. May have to watch out for the Kenina tank not standing near them, though. I've seen some Kenina 'tanks' that like to run to Frosty when she does her AoE spells to splash it to him. Normally that could be fine, but it could kill the sigils.
I don't care whether this is a "valid test case" or not. I don't want to waste time arguing for or against this issue. Fixing the game is the dev's job and if you want a change to happen please talk to the devs about it, not me. I am not a dev.
You don't care? Then why didn't you state this outright or even make a different thread about Compassion/Double Bubble Spamming/PFF support tanking? I don't recall anyone asking for that here.
It did come off as if you were against it, this was only reinforced when you produced that build and video, which in my own estimation didn't help your case if you were coming from the angle that PFF is fine.
Despite needing a fix, I want to use PFF to tank Frosty in its current form. I don't want to wait potentially years to tank a boss that is here right now if the capabilities to tank that boss with PFF that are here today. When a buff happens, tanking Frosty gets better. Win-win.
I am very disappointed that PFF "experts" seem more intent on arguing about the build's validity than helping to think of ideas to tank Frosty and other high end content.
There is very little to argue when it comes down to PFF. You've already stated it needs a fix, and instead of focusing on that, you've created a build which can be applied to any defensive passive, Invuln in particular (since absorb is above shields) and possibly any passive in game.
By creating this and making a video, you've given off the impression that PFF is "fine". When taken up on this you haven't denied it and continue to brush it off.
There was no intention on this thread to think of new ways to tank Frosty and other high end content, perhaps that's the real issue here, you've come expecting something else than what is actually being discussed and as a result there has been a rather unnecessary and lengthy discussion.
The whole point of this thread was (well after the purpose was changed) was to discuss how to improve PFF...yet again.
Diversity of building can certainly join the party whenever it feels like it, but I'd rather have my passive working before being forced into changing my build and concept to make my passive "work".
Which even then it doesn't work that well, so there is clearly an issue. I don't recall there being any call for the creation of a support tank build with regards to PFF so why it was brought up...*shrugs*...I have no idea. Nor do I see it as a valid test for saying PFF is fine.
If saying that "PFF is fine" wasn't your intention...then it would be great for some clarification.
I addressed all this in those three walls of text I posted.
But yes, I'll echo Cyrone's sentiments here, it is sooo draining and he's been doing this longer than I have. At this point all I can do is wait really. It'd be a shame if I had to change my build just so I can enjoy it more or rather worry about PFF less.
You don't care? Then why didn't you state this outright or even make a different thread about Compassion/Double Bubble Spamming/PFF support tanking? I don't recall anyone asking for that here.
It did come off as if you were against it, this was only reinforced when you produced that build and video, which in my own estimation didn't help your case if you were coming from the angle that PFF is fine.
There is very little to argue when it comes down to PFF. You've already stated it needs a fix, and instead of focusing on that, you've created a build which can be applied to any defensive passive, Invuln in particular (since absorb is above shields) and possibly any passive in game.
By creating this and making a video, you've given off the impression that PFF is "fine". When taken up on this you haven't denied it and continue to brush it off.
There was no intention on this thread to think of new ways to tank Frosty and other high end content, perhaps that's the real issue here, you've come expecting something else than what is actually being discussed and as a result there has been a rather unnecessary and lengthy discussion.
The whole point of this thread was (well after the purpose was changed) was to discuss how to improve PFF...yet again.
Diversity of building can certainly join the party whenever it feels like it, but I'd rather have my passive working before being forced into changing my build and concept to make my passive "work".
Which even then it doesn't work that well, so there is clearly an issue. I don't recall there being any call for the creation of a support tank build with regards to PFF so why it was brought up...*shrugs*...I have no idea. Nor do I see it as a valid test for saying PFF is fine.
If saying that "PFF is fine" wasn't your intention...then it would be great for some clarification.
I addressed all this in those three walls of text I posted.
But yes, I'll echo Cyrone's sentiments here, it is sooo draining and he's been doing this longer than I have. At this point all I can do is wait really. It'd be a shame if I had to change my build just so I can enjoy it more or rather worry about PFF less.
Honestly?
Give it a rest. Save your frustration for the devs. It's not my fault your passive isn't working the way you want it to.
I guess the takeaway here is that we can all at least agree that pff has issues and needs help? We know it can be made passable, Cyrone and Raven have shown that and obviously a support bubbler can handle the job. Not sure if you can tank frosty with it yet, although a high-hp high-sheild bubble build might be the only way to accomplish it at the moment.
I know from my perspective, it kinda sucks to have to rely on that many patches to keep the passive functioning. It reminds me of the old invuldodge tanks that were basically dodge-monsters to make invul work about the same as defiance did. It's much better now that it just does, and you've got other options for powers. That said? Dubble support *is* pretty damn effective. It's definitely one route to take. I just wish there were more options for tanking high end content like frosty, because even tweaking self-bubble and debuff to the extreme might not work. PFF is the only defensive that requires so much work, and I know that's really my beef. Not trying to knock the build that was presented, more lamenting the fact that this kinda build is really the only option right now. That's probably why there are so many 100% dodge LR builds vs PFF builds. A frosty tanking PFF build would pretty much have to be able to do the job without a passive at all, because after one dagger they will be. And to be clear, I am *not* questioning the build's validity or anything. I actually think it's a great showcase of the state of pff right now, because it does work. It just has to run really really far away from traditional tanking to do so, and required some serious theorycraft.
There are a LOT more options with dodge, because dodge isn't nearly in the sad shape that pff is right now. Seems like our choices to be tank-viable (and anyone else feel free to chime in here) are:
double bubble support tank
eye of the storm/dodge stacking/unbreakable (maybe with laser knight)
lead tempest/shuriken storm dodge stacking
unarmed dodge stacking
And notice how "force" doesn't really show up in there? Field surge, maybe idf, prot field, force shield. Anything else will cut down on the dodge stacking/bubbling/etc... That pff needs to survive. It mystifies me that a passive in a set would be so inefficient to use with that actual set. I'm also sure only one of those options even has a chance of tanking frosty.
Could be worse though. Kinetic manipulation... Who thought it was a good idea to have your set's hallmark ability completely strip your passive? It's like the design devs just decided "you know what force needs? a specific mechanic where you don't have a passive half of the time".
In game, I am @EvilTaco. Happily killing purple gang members since May 2008. RIP Caine
Could be worse though. Kinetic manipulation... Who thought it was a good idea to have your set's hallmark ability completely strip your passive? It's like the design devs just decided "you know what force needs? a specific mechanic where you don't have a passive half of the time".
I still think that the way this should work is that, when applied to passives like KM, the removal of energy forms by Force Cascade & co. should only remove the energy form and not the rest of the passive. If that's too hard to do, then the energy form should be removed from the passive itself and replaced by an energy form buff that's granted by the passive.
That way you only lose the cost discount and not the passive itself.
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That Dork In The Suspenders, signing out.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
Here's why blocking is the best thing you can do to make your PFF last in combat. Happened to come out of the radiation ringleader cave right into Grond's face on one of my impulse alts. Level 22. only had enough time to hit protection field and start blocking.
[Combat (Self)] Your Inertial Dampening Field absorbs 0 (33) damage.
[Combat (Self)] Your Protection Field absorbs 385 (94) damage.
[Combat (Self)] Your Personal Force Field absorbs 761 damage.
[Combat (Self)] Grond deals 40 (3785) Crushing Damage to you with Radiated Ground Throw.
[Combat (Self)] Your Force Shield gives 15 Energy to you.
[Combat (Self)] Your an unknown ability gives 73 Energy to you.
[Combat (Self)] Your Inertial Dampening Field absorbs 0 (33) damage.
[Combat (Self)] Your Personal Force Field absorbs 631 damage.
[Combat (Self)] Grond deals 33 (3555) Crushing Damage to you with Radiated Ground Throw.
[Combat (Self)] Your Force Shield gives 14 Energy to you.
[Combat (Self)] Your Inertial Dampening Field absorbs 0 (33) damage.
[Combat (Self)] Your Personal Force Field absorbs 817 damage.
[Combat (Self)] Grond deals 43 (3642) Crushing Damage to you with Radiated Ground Throw.
[Combat (Self)] Your Force Shield gives 15 Energy to you.
[Combat (Self)] Your Inertial Dampening Field absorbs 0 (33) damage.
[Combat (Self)] Your Personal Force Field absorbs 179 damage.
[Combat (Self)] Grond deals 9 (904) Crushing Damage to you with an unknown ability.
[Combat (Self)] Your Force Shield gives 12 Energy to you.
[Combat (Self)] Your Inertial Dampening Field absorbs 0 (33) damage.
[Combat (Self)] Your Personal Force Field absorbs 86 damage.
[Combat (Self)] Grond deals 5 (501) Particle Damage to you with Grond Pound.
[Combat (Self)] Your Force Shield gives 12 Energy to you.
[Combat (Self)] Your Inertial Dampening Field absorbs 0 (33) damage.
[Combat (Self)] Your Personal Force Field absorbs 861 damage.
[Combat (Self)] Grond deals 45 (3827) Crushing Damage to you with an unknown ability.
[Combat (Self)] Your Force Shield gives 16 Energy to you.
[Combat (Self)] Your Inertial Dampening Field absorbs 0 (33) damage.
[Combat (Self)] Your Personal Force Field absorbs 863 damage.
[Combat (Self)] Grond deals 45 (3836) Crushing Damage to you with an unknown ability.
[Combat (Self)] Your Force Shield gives 16 Energy to you.
[Combat (Self)] Your Inertial Dampening Field absorbs 0 (33) damage.
[Combat (Self)] Your Personal Force Field absorbs 441 damage.
[Combat (Self)] Grond deals 779 (1459) Crushing Damage to you with AWAY LITTLE MAN!.
Comments
Fair play, it is quite a lot to address. I think it was both refreshing and tiresome to have this debate all over again, but thanks for sticking with it as long as you have.
Thanks for the well wishes also, I'm sure to say they are tired of hearing this argument would be a pretty large understatement, so whatever they plan on doing with PFF in order to fix it and bring it up to scratch is their business.
I just hope it all turns out well. Just for the record, I don't think Compassion should boost PFF shield strength, it doesn't boost Regeneration's healing so it shouldn't boost PFF.
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On topics other than PFF.
What I'm trying to prove
Honestly I was trying to find what PFF can do that no other defensive passive is able to do, and that's what I found. No other defensive passive can "Go Go Compassion + Super Bubble Spam + Ebon Sigils etc" while bringing Lightning Storm down.
Once you see the stat split you'll know that the combination I used cannot possibly be done with any other passive - a Hybrid with the EHP of a Tank and the energy management of a Support character while retaining decent DPS. No other passive gets the same kind of mileage out of Six Rec Mods:
Attack choices
For attack choices I was feeling my way around there. I could easily have replaced it with something else because with 466 Rec to get energy returns from Overdrive and Compassion, the build doesn't really need to worry about energy.
So yea, could've been done with Lightning Arc, Conflag, Assault Rifle, TK Assault... I just settled for 2GM because the set I tried before that was Epidemic/Devour Essence and it turns out DE is kind of buggy for building Compassion. I wanted Lifedrain too but Lifedrain doesn't build Overdrive, same with Sword Cyclone and Celestial Conduit. I swear the powers that I want to use with PFF give me more problems than PFF itself.
On builds using support powers
It's funny you bring up Crystal's main build when it actually uses a ton of support powers as well. They're called synergies and I do build with a LOT of them for every character, whether Shadow Form with Smoke Bomb and Radiant Sigils or Lightning Reflex with Thundering Kicks and CWK and so on.
2: dex/con/rec defiance can totally throw out any power you want it to. PFF is not special in that regard. And if we're gonna say "use defiance without con" I suggest you adapt it to "use defiance without enrage". Because nobody's saying don't use PRE as a superstat. They're saying don't use a form, and enrage goes with defiance really well, just like compassion and pff. However, a defiance cascader with concentration is totally doable. I've got half a mind to do a double blade pff user with tech swords and laser knight, just to prove that you can get the same level of efficacy with a theme build. But, again, it involves a ton of protecting the passive.
Do me a favor, if you don't mind? Try that build you're running, but remove pff entirely from your bar. Lemme know if you're still surviving the same. I think *that* is really what the issue is here. I've run double bubblers in pvp before, you could have AoAC as a passive for all your passive matters with one of those things. I've seen one tank capture the flag for 15 minutes straight, with AoPM. Even as someone who will only take 3 attack powers at the most for most of their characters, I still think the amount of support you've got on that is a bit extreme. My tanks take offensive clickies and maybe a defensive panic button. Some self healing, but nowhere near 5-6 powers just to drop support on myself. My offensive characters take defensive clickies to hybrid themselves. I've *never* had to stack that much tank on top of a tank, do you even have an active offense? How much damage are you throwing?
Seems like you might even be better off just stacking AoRP on that thing and calling it a day. You're already a healer in just about every respect.
RIP Caine
Also, I'm not even sure why they let PFF scale with Compassion. They don't let Regen scale with heal buffs. I think they should remove PFFs direct interaction with Shield % buffs and then buff the base shielding & regen on it, and give it a % resistance that goes up as the shields go down. Or flat damage reduction that scales up as the shield goes down. I'd rather not have dodge though because I'd prefer if PFF's innate defense was reliable without having to pick up Evasive Maneuvers.
PS. Ravenforce, all of my suggestions for PFF have assumed that the in combat regen bug is going to be fixed regardless.
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^ This. Exactly my point Selphea. You haven't run a normal PFF build nor showcased what PFF can do. As I pointed out in my three walls o text.
Yup. Said this countless times before, but nothing has changed. I've never liked the fact that Compassion grants PFF a false increase, which is why I never take Compassion with PFF.
As have my own, suggestions I see on forums now are basically some version that either myself or a few others have suggested in the past and even then the shield regen bug wasn't fixed lol.
This bug is referred to as an active bug so whenever they apply some sort of fix to it, it either adapts or generates a new bug with the passive. My guess is now they are taking their time.
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Glad to see I'm not the only one who has taken issue with this.
I did say Selphea needs to test an original/normal PFF build. The concept for that vid is a support tank. Why should PFF be forced only to be a support tank role by taking nearly every possible power to buff and stack on it in such an extreme fashion? <-- Same question I asked in my wall o texts...
You seriously do not need a passive with that much build around. Hell...you could take Electric Form with that. PFF isn't doing anything here but increasing overall bubble strength...and even then your stacking bubbles out classes your PFF by a reasonable amount.
If anything all that video is done is to show people how much PFF requires help.
Mhmm.
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2 reasons really. For one, Dex isn't going to give you 316.9 Defense for 75% Resistance.
For another, I originally went with primary Ego using Shadow of Doubt instead of Ebon Sigils. It was actually good enough for Andrith at that point, but I'm aiming for Frosty-rated tanking here, so I figured might as well throw in Pre and Ebon sigils - they have very similar specs - and try to facetank Valerian's Soulstrike. That's the only easily-accessible extreme single target DPS on PTS.
And yes, in that regard I really don't care whether this is a "normal" tank or whether it fits into anyone's notions of a "PFF build" or not. What I do care is whether I can hold aggro with just 2 attacks (will likely put CC and CS in final build) and whether 9k bubbles and Ebon Sigils are enough mitigation for Frost Dagger.
As I said, I'm still feeling my way around here so there's no theme... yet. I am thinking Dual Claws with Warden Mastery for the final build, or maybe straight up Fireball UA and Conflag. The obvious choice for Frosty would be Thundering Kicks of course but I do what some theme (and damage) in there. Otoh Ascension as an AO is probably overkill. Pity Imbue has no Break Free though. Will probably go with Intensity since Dex is so low
And yes I could easily have done what everyone else is doing i.e. EM, Laser Knight but well... that's what everyone else is doing :O It's not how I roll. I heal with Concentration form. I use Shadowform TK DPS when the meta is all about Ice/Fire and Lightning Arc. And next up I want to tank Frosty with PFF :O
You've given the impression that you don't believe PFF really needs to be fixed outside of the regen bug, because it works for your build.
Your build would function just as well with no passive and do better with any Aura or Medical Nanites.
No one else thinks that's a valid test case.
You refuse to make a PFF build that doesn't rely on the current (IMHO poorly thought out) heal % interactions and double bubbles.
You still think this proves that PFF isn't broken.
Is any of this incorrect? If so, please clarify.
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PFF needs a fix.
I don't care whether this is a "valid test case" or not. I don't want to waste time arguing for or against this issue. Fixing the game is the dev's job and if you want a change to happen please talk to the devs about it, not me. I am not a dev.
Despite needing a fix, I want to use PFF to tank Frosty in its current form. I don't want to wait potentially years to tank a boss that is here right now if the capabilities to tank that boss with PFF that are here today. When a buff happens, tanking Frosty gets better. Win-win.
If you want to tank Frosty with no passive or Aura or Medi-nanites please feel free. I would love to see new innovations in builds but I do not claim to have the knowledge to do so at present and make no claims nor guarantees about the efficacy of my build under those conditions.
I am very disappointed that PFF "experts" seem more intent on arguing about the build's validity than helping to think of ideas to tank Frosty and other high end content.
The LR thread was a lot more positive in that regard. Today there is a lot of diversity in 100% Dodge LR builds. Sadly no one wants to make that happen here.
Its what I use to make Regen work vs. daggers, and its fine if done right. I imagine w/ even half the support you took (say the sigils and one extra bubble) and VDx10 ya could make PFF work vs. him- provided ya still have good ADs and max HP to fall back on (as most tank builds vs. him should).
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
The idea is I want an improvement over the LR tank. The LR tank is vulnerable when Spired, but with access to two ADs and if pre-double-bubbled I'd imagine PFF to be safer if it works.
The issue is whether base damage after Sigils and Crippling Challenge, -9k from double bubbles +1400EHP per 3sec is low enough for PFF to withstand 4 undodged Daggers (one covered by the 10k Field Surge bubble) and 5 dodged Daggers (MD) before the next Field Surge.
Hey, I'm not arguing anything. People play the builds they want to play. I have no problem with that. As far as tanking high end content. No problem for my PFF tank. What *is* the problem is that I have to change *my* build to tank Frosticus. Honestly, that's f-ing stupid that I should have to do that. You want to tank Frosticus with a PFF build of your design, by all means. Go for it. I salute your dedication. After over three years of fighting for PFF and, as you said, TALKING TO THE DEVS...we can clearly see that nothing that was fixed stuck around. So I'm done. If anyone else wants to fight for the fixing of the power, more power to them. I'll be around for build advice.
Advocating this power has completely drained me of the will to even log in some days.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
And keep in mind ya dun have to continually block to maintain VD- once its stacked ya can refresh it just by taping it during an ice cage tick or w/e.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
I will note that the Combat Logs were wonky. Usually I can see the debuffs in the (#####) portion, i.e. with CC and Fear his 20,000 gets turned into (15,384). With Ebon Sigils (and CC/Fear) it went down to ~12K-13K which does NOT jive with the amount of Sigils debuffs. BUT, my net damage was reduced by an unknown 33% more so...
Overall net, the final damage number made sense per the formula above. Usually, Elle the Ghost Blade gets hit for ~5K undodged, with Sigils it was ~3K, very nice debuff!
@selphea, all tanks are more vulnerable when Spired -- Parry, Laser Knight, Ebon Void all go bye bye. Simple solution is to save MD for a Spire. I can attest that his Spires come only once every 50+ seconds, probably every 60 seconds is the actual recycle time.
Thanks! Sounds like this might actually be doable :O
Now to get a new set of 24 tokens...
It actually works very well for the sigils cause the only AoE I think Frosty does is the ice cage, and that's prob low enough dmg and too small to reach em. The shatter may also reach, but I dun find those to hit hard either. May have to watch out for the Kenina tank not standing near them, though. I've seen some Kenina 'tanks' that like to run to Frosty when she does her AoE spells to splash it to him. Normally that could be fine, but it could kill the sigils.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
Yes. Yes it does.
You don't care? Then why didn't you state this outright or even make a different thread about Compassion/Double Bubble Spamming/PFF support tanking? I don't recall anyone asking for that here.
It did come off as if you were against it, this was only reinforced when you produced that build and video, which in my own estimation didn't help your case if you were coming from the angle that PFF is fine.
There is very little to argue when it comes down to PFF. You've already stated it needs a fix, and instead of focusing on that, you've created a build which can be applied to any defensive passive, Invuln in particular (since absorb is above shields) and possibly any passive in game.
By creating this and making a video, you've given off the impression that PFF is "fine". When taken up on this you haven't denied it and continue to brush it off.
There was no intention on this thread to think of new ways to tank Frosty and other high end content, perhaps that's the real issue here, you've come expecting something else than what is actually being discussed and as a result there has been a rather unnecessary and lengthy discussion.
The whole point of this thread was (well after the purpose was changed) was to discuss how to improve PFF...yet again.
Diversity of building can certainly join the party whenever it feels like it, but I'd rather have my passive working before being forced into changing my build and concept to make my passive "work".
Which even then it doesn't work that well, so there is clearly an issue. I don't recall there being any call for the creation of a support tank build with regards to PFF so why it was brought up...*shrugs*...I have no idea. Nor do I see it as a valid test for saying PFF is fine.
If saying that "PFF is fine" wasn't your intention...then it would be great for some clarification.
I addressed all this in those three walls of text I posted.
But yes, I'll echo Cyrone's sentiments here, it is sooo draining and he's been doing this longer than I have. At this point all I can do is wait really. It'd be a shame if I had to change my build just so I can enjoy it more or rather worry about PFF less.
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Honestly?
Give it a rest. Save your frustration for the devs. It's not my fault your passive isn't working the way you want it to.
I know from my perspective, it kinda sucks to have to rely on that many patches to keep the passive functioning. It reminds me of the old invuldodge tanks that were basically dodge-monsters to make invul work about the same as defiance did. It's much better now that it just does, and you've got other options for powers. That said? Dubble support *is* pretty damn effective. It's definitely one route to take. I just wish there were more options for tanking high end content like frosty, because even tweaking self-bubble and debuff to the extreme might not work. PFF is the only defensive that requires so much work, and I know that's really my beef. Not trying to knock the build that was presented, more lamenting the fact that this kinda build is really the only option right now. That's probably why there are so many 100% dodge LR builds vs PFF builds. A frosty tanking PFF build would pretty much have to be able to do the job without a passive at all, because after one dagger they will be. And to be clear, I am *not* questioning the build's validity or anything. I actually think it's a great showcase of the state of pff right now, because it does work. It just has to run really really far away from traditional tanking to do so, and required some serious theorycraft.
There are a LOT more options with dodge, because dodge isn't nearly in the sad shape that pff is right now. Seems like our choices to be tank-viable (and anyone else feel free to chime in here) are:
double bubble support tank
eye of the storm/dodge stacking/unbreakable (maybe with laser knight)
lead tempest/shuriken storm dodge stacking
unarmed dodge stacking
And notice how "force" doesn't really show up in there? Field surge, maybe idf, prot field, force shield. Anything else will cut down on the dodge stacking/bubbling/etc... That pff needs to survive. It mystifies me that a passive in a set would be so inefficient to use with that actual set. I'm also sure only one of those options even has a chance of tanking frosty.
Could be worse though. Kinetic manipulation... Who thought it was a good idea to have your set's hallmark ability completely strip your passive? It's like the design devs just decided "you know what force needs? a specific mechanic where you don't have a passive half of the time".
RIP Caine
I still think that the way this should work is that, when applied to passives like KM, the removal of energy forms by Force Cascade & co. should only remove the energy form and not the rest of the passive. If that's too hard to do, then the energy form should be removed from the passive itself and replaced by an energy form buff that's granted by the passive.
That way you only lose the cost discount and not the passive itself.
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Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
PFF won't even work for the gods!
Maybe one day.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
[Combat (Self)] Your Inertial Dampening Field absorbs 0 (33) damage.
[Combat (Self)] Your Protection Field absorbs 385 (94) damage.
[Combat (Self)] Your Personal Force Field absorbs 761 damage.
[Combat (Self)] Grond deals 40 (3785) Crushing Damage to you with Radiated Ground Throw.
[Combat (Self)] Your Force Shield gives 15 Energy to you.
[Combat (Self)] Your an unknown ability gives 73 Energy to you.
[Combat (Self)] Your Inertial Dampening Field absorbs 0 (33) damage.
[Combat (Self)] Your Personal Force Field absorbs 631 damage.
[Combat (Self)] Grond deals 33 (3555) Crushing Damage to you with Radiated Ground Throw.
[Combat (Self)] Your Force Shield gives 14 Energy to you.
[Combat (Self)] Your Inertial Dampening Field absorbs 0 (33) damage.
[Combat (Self)] Your Personal Force Field absorbs 817 damage.
[Combat (Self)] Grond deals 43 (3642) Crushing Damage to you with Radiated Ground Throw.
[Combat (Self)] Your Force Shield gives 15 Energy to you.
[Combat (Self)] Your Inertial Dampening Field absorbs 0 (33) damage.
[Combat (Self)] Your Personal Force Field absorbs 179 damage.
[Combat (Self)] Grond deals 9 (904) Crushing Damage to you with an unknown ability.
[Combat (Self)] Your Force Shield gives 12 Energy to you.
[Combat (Self)] Your Inertial Dampening Field absorbs 0 (33) damage.
[Combat (Self)] Your Personal Force Field absorbs 86 damage.
[Combat (Self)] Grond deals 5 (501) Particle Damage to you with Grond Pound.
[Combat (Self)] Your Force Shield gives 12 Energy to you.
[Combat (Self)] Your Inertial Dampening Field absorbs 0 (33) damage.
[Combat (Self)] Your Personal Force Field absorbs 861 damage.
[Combat (Self)] Grond deals 45 (3827) Crushing Damage to you with an unknown ability.
[Combat (Self)] Your Force Shield gives 16 Energy to you.
[Combat (Self)] Your Inertial Dampening Field absorbs 0 (33) damage.
[Combat (Self)] Your Personal Force Field absorbs 863 damage.
[Combat (Self)] Grond deals 45 (3836) Crushing Damage to you with an unknown ability.
[Combat (Self)] Your Force Shield gives 16 Energy to you.
[Combat (Self)] Your Inertial Dampening Field absorbs 0 (33) damage.
[Combat (Self)] Your Personal Force Field absorbs 441 damage.
[Combat (Self)] Grond deals 779 (1459) Crushing Damage to you with AWAY LITTLE MAN!.