combine dps roles

aiqa

The melee dps role was created at the time of the big melee patch to give melee builds a bit of an edge. But with on alert all the advantages of the melee dps role were made into specs, leaving the two dps roles basically copies but one buffing only melee and the other only ranged damage.

I think it is best to make them into one role again like they started out, to make it easier for dps builds that use both melee and ranged attacks.

meedacthunist

Good idea.
I never liked CoH/CO division between melee and ranged DPS roles. It's a needlessly complicated system. And I can't recall it popular in other mmos, for a reason.

Now, melee could use some power-ups to compensate for generally easier play for ranged toons. But this could be done with powers themselves.

But having two different roles for dps, especially when the hybrid role exists, seems redundant.

crypticbuxom

Don't the two DPS roles have different bonuses and penalties to energy return? Wouldn't this change make ranged DPS easier and melee DPS alternatively harder?

aiqa

Ranged role has better energy, which is quite unfair in itself, the rest is all the same.

flowcyto

Well, their reasoning for the energy differences may be that melee powers tend to be slightly more efficient (dpe and eps -wise) than ranged powers of the same tier (are exceptions ofc). The melee end builders also give more eps when in-range (ofc, not when out- and forced to use the taunt). But then again, ranged has better EUs, where melee is expected to do weirder or more gimmicky things for more energy.

So I wouldn't really be against combining them at this point- making the energy return closer to Ranged's atm. Then maybe the Night Avenger could be made a dps AT (Hybrid role mostly holds it back atm).

tdits

Damage Role:

Characters in the damage role receive a large damage bonus from the primary super stat, a small damage bonus from secondary super stats, and a small threat generation reduction from super stats. The damage role also grants:

+15% all damage
+10% melee damage
+30% energy building strength
-20% control power strength
-50% energy from blocking

Hows this?

tdits

gradii wrote: »

ehh no, because so many builds arent based on the primary stat.

What? That part is exactly the same in both of the current damage roles. In fact, every role in the game has the primary superstat give better bonuses than the secondaries baring spec tree. The only thing that's different in what I posted from ranged damage role are the multiplicative passive damage bonuses.

selphea

tdits wrote: »

Damage Role:

Characters in the damage role receive a large damage bonus from the primary super stat, a small damage bonus from secondary super stats, and a small threat generation reduction from super stats. The damage role also grants:

+15% all damage
+10% melee damage
+30% energy building strength
-20% control power strength
-50% energy from blocking

Hows this?

I would feel bad for Archery and Darkness characters if this happened.

tdits

selphea wrote: »

I would feel bad for Archery and Darkness characters if this happened.

Archery and Darkness probably need buffs anyway.

selphea

tdits wrote: »

Archery and Darkness probably need buffs anyway.

I won't say they're fine as-is, but the situation they're in is quite tricky, because Archery's AoEs are the only 100ft mobile AoEs in the game, while Darkness' hardest hitting attack is the only 100ft Trauma applier in the game.

tdits

selphea wrote: »

I won't say they're fine as-is, but the situation they're in is quite tricky, because Archery's AoEs are the only 100ft mobile AoEs in the game, while Darkness' hardest hitting attack is the only 100ft Trauma applier in the game.

Yes, but they also have some of the most underperforming ranged powers in the game. Particularly, with Archery's single target attacks. I'm not suggesting we buff the already good archery & darkness powers, just that we buff the not-so-good ones a little.

And yeah, Gas Arrow needs a major buff. Like big time.

selphea

tdits wrote: »

Yes, but they also have some of the most underperforming ranged powers in the game. Particularly, with Archery's single target attacks. I'm not suggesting we buff the already good archery & darkness powers, just that we buff the not-so-good ones a little.

And yeah, Gas Arrow needs a major buff. Like big time.

Thing is, they happen to be good, they just don't happen to be good at DPS. How many 100ft attacks are there that don't self-root or slow you? Even Straight Shot lets you move around while charging, while Snap Shot lets you kite away unlike Ice Blast tap spam.

Darkness' Ebon Ruin doesn't hit very hard at all in the grand scheme of things - compared to 2GM, Ice Blast, Lightning Arc, TK Mental Storm etc. On the other hand, it comes with a 10% damage debuff and Trauma. The trouble with the 10% debuff though, what power in the Darkness set is going to take advantage of that to hit hard?

Anyway, my greater point is, why are you arbitrarily suggesting 15% to all damage, and then an additional 10% to melee? Is ranged so strong across the board that this is necessary? I don't think so - at the top end, the outliers are Strafing Run and Rimefire and Ice Blast + Hard Frost with an easy to apply and maintain -30% from Fire Snake, but outside of Fire/Ice you'll be hard pressed to find a ranged combo that's competitive with Demolish/Haymaker and Shred/Massacre with NPGs thrown in.

aiqa

selphea wrote: »

I won't say they're fine as-is, but the situation they're in is quite tricky, because Archery's AoEs are the only 100ft mobile AoEs in the game, while Darkness' hardest hitting attack is the only 100ft Trauma applier in the game.

I agree darkness is tricky, but for archery, I dont think weak single target damage should be compensated by good AoE. That is not done for other sets like pistols or lightning either, LT is one of the best aoe attacks, and TGM one of the best single target attacks.
For selfrooting attacks I think a 10% higher damage would be good enough compared to attacks that allow you to move arround, but even getting half the single target dps on archery compared to lightning/pistols/tk as hard, that is a much bigger difference than I'd like.

gradii wrote: »

actually straight shot is pretty good due to the built in debuff, I've heard it said that Archery is more the "swiss army knife" of ranged sets, so although it falls behind in dps, its got a lot of stuff in it, stuns, knocks, single target, long range mobile aoe.

We are playing a freeform game, while it is ok powers doing less damage due to having some added utility, that generally goes on a power by power basis, not set by set. And the stun/root/knock powers do have a low dps, but powers like snapshot, or focused shot, or straight shot only do damage, and low damage at that.

alexandrafreya

gradii wrote: »

actually straight shot is pretty good due to the built in debuff, I've heard it said that Archery is more the "swiss army knife" of ranged sets, so although it falls behind in dps, its got a lot of stuff in it, stuns, knocks, single target, long range mobile aoe.

Doesn't might have lots to offer in terms of these kind of things asvvell though?...A click AOE stun?...Large AoE Ranged attacks, Snares, endless amounts of knocks...and still holds strong Single target Damage?

I knovv is mostly Melee but if you are looking at sets in a vvhole then it's fair I think?

Also Telekinesis has just as much to offer here and doesn't suffer from it as badly?

Anyvvay I do think Archrey needs better Single target DPS at least..AoE I'll give you but I don't think Sets should be judge as a vvhole thing, Look Telepathy it has shields and heals...should also means the DPS attack in that set should be any less than other?

Sorry I just really like Archery but are forced outside the set for attacks because it refuses to let me vvork vvith it :P

I can understand things are alittle different on a PvP side of things..since DPS is less important there and Archery holds a good spot for kiting....and even in PvE these things do have some nice uses...Kiting Mobs isn't the same but it still holds something I agree vvith.

Just....I think povvers should balance on a povver by povver thing and not a set as a vvhole...and Snap Shot, Focused Shot, Straight Shot..are all vvay under povvered....removing any form of Single target DPS from Archery, I have tried many times to get those povver to deal some kind of damage but failed everytime...maybe I'm building it vvrong and If I am sorry...

In any case I just think it's unfair to use one attack in a set to keep other attacks lovver...No one ever brings up UR vvhen talking of Haymaker...or Bullet Beatdovvn vvhen talking about Lead Tempest....and I knovv vve are talking about Arcthery as a vvhole but...It's alittle tricky to explain...ermm...I just think Povvers should be based one on One and not "this set has that" and "That set has this"

Sorry I vvernt on abit..

Alexandra.

selphea

aiqa wrote: »

I agree darkness is tricky, but for archery, I dont think weak single target damage should be compensated by good AoE. That is not done for other sets like pistols or lightning either, LT is one of the best aoe attacks, and TGM one of the best single target attacks.
For selfrooting attacks I think a 10% higher damage would be good enough compared to attacks that allow you to move arround, but even getting half the single target dps on archery compared to lightning/pistols/tk as hard, that is a much bigger difference than I'd like.

My original point was about Archery's AoEs, it was later that single target was brought in. Their single target does need a buff, although in its current state I wouldn't recommend a buff to take it to within even 10% of the top end. I think Cryptic needs to establish how certain advantages/disadvantages affect a power's DPS, like:

- Melee vs 50ft vs 100ft vs 120ft
- Self-root vs Self-snare vs Full mobility
- Ramp/Charge vs Tap/Constant damage
- Energy cost
- The metagame, e.g. effect vs Gravitar's Kinetic Manip, and synergy with passives that resist most bosses like Stormbringer
- Requirement of status effects to reach maximum potential, e.g. Ions, Fear
- Availablility of damage debuffs for the damage type like Fire Snake, Demolish, Mental Storm
- Range mismatch, e.g. the main power is 100ft, but the required debuff/status applier is 50ft
- Stacking/rupture mechanics
- Energy Unlock-friendliness

And so on.

The problem with Archery - even single target, is it has a LOT of quality-of-life benefits: ease of use due to absence of silly stacking/rupture, high mobility, long range, low energy cost. Much like where 2GM was before it was buffed, except 2GM is 50ft, doesn't have its own debuff, and to get the most out of 2GM you need to be in melee range. Trouble is, they're quality-of-life, so the basics i.e. actual DPS went down the drain.

So I agree Archery single target needs a buff but I'd lean more towards something conditional that requires a complex rotation or close range if it wants to keep its current advantages.

alexandrafreya

selphea wrote: »

My original point was about Archery's AoEs, it was later that single target was brought in. Their single target does need a buff, although in its current state I wouldn't recommend a buff to take it to within even 10% of the top end. I think Cryptic needs to establish how certain advantages/disadvantages affect a power's DPS, like:

- Melee vs 50ft vs 100ft vs 120ft
- Self-root vs Self-snare vs Full mobility
- Ramp/Charge vs Tap/Constant damage
- Energy cost
- The metagame, e.g. effect vs Gravitar's Kinetic Manip, and synergy with passives that resist most bosses like Stormbringer
- Requirement of status effects to reach maximum potential, e.g. Ions, Fear
- Availablility of damage debuffs for the damage type like Fire Snake, Demolish, Mental Storm
- Stacking/rupture mechanics
- Energy Unlock-friendliness

And so on.

The problem with Archery - even single target, is it has a LOT of quality-of-life benefits: ease of use due to absence of silly stacking/rupture, high mobility, long range, low energy cost. Much like where 2GM was before it was buffed, except 2GM is 50ft, doesn't have its own debuff, and to get the most out of 2GM you need to be in melee range.

So I agree Archery single target needs a buff but I'd lean more towards something conditional that requires a complex rotation or close range if it wants to keep its current advantages.

I do fully agree on this one, I can understand it could be buffed too high very easily yes and I don't think anyone vvould vvant that.

Plus I love builds that are abit more Complex in their rotation, I get bored very easily spamming avvay at the same povver...so..I might be alittle bias on that idea but still...

Alexandra.