All good, except that the sequencing of the encounters is totally out-of-whack. I've never seen a team that successfully completes round 8, fail round 9 or 10, when you'd expect that the final boss of the arena be, well, hard.
I usually regret invoking TVTropes, but Duraclad is That One Boss.
That's actually quite typical of CO (and even some other games). Not everything is designed to have a straight rising difficulty curve, and there's actually good reasons to do it that way.
The only reason that Forum Malvanum could even be considered "hard" is the fact that the extra stages have a time limit.
Gee, where have I seen that before. DPS Race with a time limit.
Oh right, that's like 98% of all Endgame content in STO. DPS race with time limit.
There's also a lot of super hero movies and other action films that involve time limits Time limits are very heroic you know! (more-so when it's not based purely around number crunching and instead involves objective completion).
Take away the timer. Put in a lock-out upon respawn. Defeated players get a chance to res before a complete wipe takes place. IMO that would be a better implementation. Make the alert about survival rather than a DPS race that is biased towards players built for DPS, Considering that it's a multi-tiered gladiatorial arena, it being about survival makes more sense.
That's the part that has always bugged me the most. Not that there's a timer, but that the timer makes no sense for the 'mission'. Soviets about to launch America's entire nuclear arsenal, yes, put a timer on that. Train headed for area rigged with explosives, yeah, that's time-sensitive.
Interplanetary gladiatorial combat? That's a dumb thing to time. In that scenario, it should be 'two men enter, one man leaves', instead of 'two men enter, but we don't know what really happens at the end because we attached a totally arbitrary time limit to this epic clash'.
I take this quote from a review that I agree with.
"customisation is so linear; everyone is after the optimal dps:survivability ratio with 0 reliance on other players = autonomous gameplay... Players don't need each other anymore... which in my opinion is a bad thing."
That's the part that has always bugged me the most. Not that there's a timer, but that the timer makes no sense for the 'mission'. Soviets about to launch America's entire nuclear arsenal, yes, put a timer on that. Train headed for area rigged with explosives, yeah, that's time-sensitive.
Interplanetary gladiatorial combat? That's a dumb thing to time. In that scenario, it should be 'two men enter, one man leaves', instead of 'two men enter, but we don't know what really happens at the end because we attached a totally arbitrary time limit to this epic clash'.
Explanation is simple: that master of the games guy said there's a time limit, so that's why there is one. He implemented that rule because you were doing too well, and he doesn't want some puny earth heroes winning his famous gladiator thing.
This would be so much better (or at least less infuriating).
Would it? Or would people then just start complaining about the lock-out instead? You know, like they do about every lockout in the game so far... >.>
And wouldn't the "this fight favors dps!" complaint just turn into "this fight favors tanks!" or "this fight requires healers and tanks and trinity!"...
Delete the Timer and make this Alert a LVL 40 Custom alert like Cybermind and lock the defeated members out as Penalty
The Timer is NOT working as Intended!
The Timer is NOT working as Intended!
The Timer is NOT working as Intended!
The Timer is NOT working as Intended!
The Timer is NOT working as Intended!
The Timer is NOT working as Intended!
The Timer is NOT FREAKING working as Intended!!
Because nothing says working as Intended as a Timer that starts counting from the Cutscenes
What kind of Freaking Colloseum handicapes your LVL and puts a freaking timer on Bosses
and Spams you with unskipable cutsenses?
This alert is incredible Horrible Designed
A DPS Race for DPS Wh0res, punishing Support, Hybrids, Tanks and ATs
Honestly this Alert had Potential to be Fun, but NOPE!
POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable and get experimental with Viable FF Theme builds! Running out of Unique FF builds due to the lack of updates and synergies! Playing since 1 February 2011 128 + Characters (21 ATs, 107 FFs) ALTitis for Life!
Provided you have someone to keep the aggro off the ubersquish ATs.
I nearly pulled a team of tanks through as the sole dps on a tempest AT due to the good tanking of the others.
(to be fair said tempest was specced and geared extremely well)
I'm pretty sure if I was in the same situation again I could beat it the next time using the experience I gained from the last round.
That is why I added "with flight TP". Both those bosses are melee, if you fly well out of melee range they'll only do lunges, but they only start doing that at 15 or 20 feet or so. So if you stay between 10 feet and that 15 or 20 feet range, they don't attack at all. They'll only try to walk up to you, which they can't since they can't fly.
Of course the zero gravity makes you gradually lose altitude, so it might require some practice.
Would it? Or would people then just start complaining about the lock-out instead? You know, like they do about every lockout in the game so far... >.>
And wouldn't the "this fight favors dps!" complaint just turn into "this fight favors tanks!" or "this fight requires healers and tanks and trinity!"...
I definitely prefer a "DPS race" to lockouts. All lock-outs seem to do is make it so over-specced individuals get to be the "solo hero".
Would it? Or would people then just start complaining about the lock-out instead? You know, like they do about every lockout in the game so far... >.>
And wouldn't the "this fight favors dps!" complaint just turn into "this fight favors tanks!" or "this fight requires healers and tanks and trinity!"...
Well compared to the absurd DPS wall that the Duraclad fight is, I think a lockout replacing a timer is much more feasible.
The alert is supposed to be team-focused. If anyone wants to complain about the fight favoring tanks and requiring healers and trinity...D-U-H!, it's team content. Expect trinity.
A lockout means that non-DPS roles get to be relevant in the fight. Buffs, heals and drawing aggro would suddenly become much more applicable since it would strictly be about surviving the fight other than a stupid DPS race. Self-sustainable "jack of all trades" builds would perform with no lesser effectiveness.Teamwork would be emphasized on. Suddenly there would be much better challenge and not the fake challenge it is by putting a ridiculous amount of health behind a timer.
I definitely prefer a "DPS race" to lockouts. All lock-outs seem to do is make it so over-specced individuals get to be the "solo hero".
But I was speaking about Duraclad in FM specifically. I don't know about "all" lockouts pandering to the "solo hero", but if I'm interested to know just how many "solo heroes" are out there who have actually soloed Duraclad and actually beat the timer.
And I was speaking generally, but applying it. I wish to participate, win or lose, not sit behind a lock watching. Yes, I know I can carry things to revive me, but then that asks the question, what's the point of the lockout? To make sure you carry something to revive yourself? It seems a rather pointless mechanism to me.
And I was speaking generally, but applying it. I wish to participate, win or lose, not sit behind a lock watching. Yes, I know I can carry things to revive me, but then that asks the question, what's the point of the lockout? To make sure you carry something to revive yourself? It seems a rather pointless mechanism to me.
The point of the lockout is to prevent graveyard rushing. It takes away complacency and gives incentive for the team to work as a team or fail as a team. If you get thrown outside after respawning, then it's either time to find another PUG, attempt the fight again if you're in a premade team, or if stay around you think the remaining members of the team can still win the fight then join in for the next one.
That as a trade-off for getting rid of the timer doesn't look like a bad thing to me. It's not a perfect alternative, but it's much better than the unreasonable DPS wall we have currently.
The debate over whether Duraclad should have a timer in the first place or use some other mechanic is interesting, and I'm not sure I've taken a side yet.
However, I can't believe somebody has to say this to the same damn knuckleheads every damn time Forum Malvanum rotates in:
The timer is working as intended.
Cryptic North had a choice: Fix an engine they were unfamiliar with to allow cutscenes between waves; or leave the engine as-is and add the fixed length of the cutscene to the intended length of the mission timer. Trailturtle and/or LordGar have explained this multiple times.
Now I'm sure CN would rather have fixed the engine then. Maybe if they had time today, they would do it, if only to mollify the players who insist there's some grand conspiracy at work. Maybe, in my wildest dreams, Dan Stahl's Secret 4th Project is actually a complete rebuild of CO on a modern version of Cryptic Engine, not the rusted-out '88 Hyundai of a game engine we have today.
But we do have this '88 Hyundai, and fixing FM to start the Duraclad timer after the cutscene would require regression testing every single mid-mission cutscene in the game. Because if you have your britches in a twist over a timer, how would you react to dying in the middle of a Ghost Veil monologue?
</software-development-rant>
Choose your enemies carefully, because they will define you / Make them interesting, because in some ways they will mind you
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
However currently the timer is the only thing making the ironclad/duratok fight remotely challenging unless you're in a full team of glass cannons with minimal to no self healing and defense.
it doesn't need to be as tough as it is now, I think firewing could use more attacks and hitpoints (and also no timer) but the way the alert is balanced now the timer is why people ever fail.
You know, when it gets to a point where I'm convinced to think "Yep, Duraclad. That's where this alert is going to end." each and every time I do FM, it's not challenge. It's not even "remotely" challenging. It's just me conceding to the fact that the fight is broken as heck and it's not due to the lack of effort on the team's part.
No, the timer isn't the "only" thing making it challenging. It's false challenge / difficulty. It's pigeon-holing players into using specialist DPS builds. There should be better alternatives. Expecting players to take down two bosses within a timeframe that does not justify the collective health + damage soak that they have is ludicrous, unless all team members are seriously optimized for DPS.
I'm okay with the game having a few dps races. This is an mmorpg after all, it's not as if a dps race is even remotely out of place here. Being short on time even fits the genre of this mmorpg.
Not every encounter in the game needs to be exactly the same. Some can be this, others can be that.
And it's not as if you actually fail the alert if the timer runs out, you just didn't win it as much as those other people who got 1G extra reward.
This is the point where I would ask "does failing really hurt that much?" .... but to be accurate I have to ask "Does a slightly less rewarding victory hurt that much?".
The annoying thing about FM is that the most difficult stage isn't the final stage. If you can get past Duraclad, Firewing won't be a problem (though amusingly, Firewing's DoTs appear to continue functioning during the cut scenes, I managed to die during the cut scene of him being defeated and teleporting out).
I'm okay with the game having a few dps races. This is an mmorpg after all, it's not as if a dps race is even remotely out of place here. Being short on time even fits the genre of this mmorpg.
Not every encounter in the game needs to be exactly the same. Some can be this, others can be that.
And it's not as if you actually fail the alert if the timer runs out, you just didn't win it as much as those other people who got 1G extra reward.
This is the point where I would ask "does failing really hurt that much?" .... but to be accurate I have to ask "Does a slightly less rewarding victory hurt that much?".
There's a difference between a DPS race and a stupidly unfair DPS race. Smash alerts (for the most part) represent fair DPS races. Duraclad does not. Smash alerts are very winnable even if the team doesn't consist of heavy DPS builds. That isn't the case with Duraclad. If the fight is so broken that it makes non-DPS focused builds irrelevant then it's a problem.
As Pantagruel has mentioned, Defeating Firewing as the final boss is nowhere near just how absurdly difficult it is to defeat Duraclad. It makes no sense that the final boss is so much easier than a mid-level boss. Considering that FM is a tier-based gladiatorial arena and all about throwing more and more difficult opponents at you, this makes no damn sense at all.
There's a difference between a DPS race and a stupidly unfair DPS race. Smash alerts (for the most part) represent fair DPS races. Duraclad does not. Smash alerts are very winnable even if the team doesn't consist of heavy DPS builds. That isn't the case with Duraclad. If the fight is so broken that it makes non-DPS focused builds irrelevant then it's a problem.
Smash alerts don't represent a fair dps race... they represent a cakewalk. They represent "why is there even a timer on these?". If that's your baseline, then you're basically just back to saying there should be no dps races in the game.
FM is actually fair. What's not fair about letting you win before you ever even get to the timed part? That's the part you seem to want to keep ignoring... before that timer ever starts, you've already won the alert.
QUOTE=jennymachx;4497301]
As Pantagruel has mentioned, Defeating Firewing as the final boss is nowhere near just how absurdly difficult it is to defeat Duraclad. It makes no sense that the final boss is so much easier than a mid-level boss. Considering that FM is a tier-based gladiatorial arena and all about throwing more and more difficult opponents at you, this makes no damn sense at all.[/QUOTE]
Except that there are many examples in this game and others of an encounter's difficulty curve peaking at the middle.
If you're saying that Firewing should be more difficult, then that specific part is something I agree with, he could be a bit more lethal since his really dangerous attacks are entirely avoidable.
Duraclad is fine though - some people can beat it, some can't, and that's perfectly okay because it's a challenge round, it's only there for people who want that challenge (whatever type of challenge that specific challenge might be, since sometimes challenges are specific and not just general "fits all definitions of challenge" challenges). Like I said, your entire group could just stop and let the first timer run out and you would still win the Alert, so you can't really make the argument that the alert is unfair when victory is handed to you like that.
The other thing that would be nice is if there was actually a meaningful ramping up of difficulty other than the Duraclad fight. Say, grant NPCs in rounds 6, 7, and 9 some sort of buff (perhaps Hard, Very Hard, and Elite buffs, since those already exist).
Smash alerts don't represent a fair dps race... they represent a cakewalk. They represent "why is there even a timer on these?". If that's your baseline, then you're basically just back to saying there should be no dps races in the game.
I already mentioned why I consider them fair DPS races because you don't need a team of DPS-specialist players to take down the boss villain's health within the time limit. I've only used Smash as a baseline because like Duraclad, they're both timed fights. It only made sense to.
Smash alerts aren't "cakewalks". There's still a very probable risk of failure. Grab alerts are the cakewalk alerts since you have unlimited tries at the boss via respawn rushing with no time limit, no matter how many times you faceplant, outside of the whole team quitting. That undeniably screams "cakewalk".
As to "why is there even a timer on these?" Isn't it obvious that it's to hinder respawn rushing, also considering that you spawn right next to where the boss villain is?
FM is actually fair. What's not fair about letting you win before you ever even get to the timed part? That's the part you seem to want to keep ignoring... before that timer ever starts, you've already won the alert.
If you're saying that Firewing should be more difficult, then that specific part is something I agree with, he could be a bit more lethal since his really dangerous attacks are entirely avoidable.
Duraclad is fine though - some people can beat it, some can't, and that's perfectly okay because it's a challenge round, it's only there for people who want that challenge (whatever type of challenge that specific challenge might be, since sometimes challenges are specific and not just general "fits all definitions of challenge" challenges). Like I said, your entire group could just stop and let the first timer run out and you would still win the Alert, so you can't really make the argument that the alert is unfair when victory is handed to you like that.
Not beating Duraclad is not "winning" the alert. Defeating every opponent thrown at you in the arena and coming out as the ultimate victors is winning the alert, especially with defeating Firewing, the final boss. What you're saying is akin to me playing Megaman 3, defeating all stage bosses on the grid then turning off the console and claiming victory without even trying to reach Dr. Wily.
There's a difference between a consolation "you tried your best" award and actual victory.
I never said that FM is unfair as a whole. I was saying that Duraclad is an unfair fight specifically for all the points already mentioned that I don't feel like repeating. Everything else about FM I have nothing against.
You get a reward circle and quest credit. What's the point of a staged challenge if you're always going to reach the end?
The reward is besides the point. My main focus is on about making Duraclad a fairer fight, as in not pigeon-holing players into needing specialist-DPS builds to ever expect a chance of winning while making other roles irrelevant. I don't believe that the fact that there's a reward justifies the way Duraclad currently is.
The point of a staged challenge is all about reaching the end. There's always an end point and that end point is always the goal. Yes, you have small little victories at each completed tier, but ultimately it's still about reaching the end. The goal is there for players to try to reach otherwise why even bother creating an end point?
Also I never implied that there had to be 100% assurance to reaching the end. I suggested an alternative that could still make the fight challenging and where losing the fight would still be a possibility. If you're saying that I'm implying that it's an entitlement for players regardless of whatever is involved in the fights then you're mistaken.
Your personal subjective opinion of what winning the alert means or doesn't mean is irrelevant because the game very objectively defines the victory conditions for the alert by completing the mission for it and providing a reward circle. This is the clearest way the game can communicate to you that you were successful - if you choose not to listen, that's your problem.
Anyone can see that the extra rounds are just that, extra - if dps challenges aren't your cup of tea, then you're not the intended audience for those extra rounds (just like if survival challenges aren't your cup of tea, then Gravitar wasn't made for you). And that's fine, because everything doesn't have to be made for everyone. In fact, making specific challenges brings a very healthy amount of diversity to the game, especially when they formulate it like FM and let you objectively win via a more general challenge before you ever get to the specific challenge.
Your personal subjective opinion of what winning the alert means or doesn't mean is irrelevant because the game very objectively defines the victory conditions for the alert by completing the mission for it and providing a reward circle. This is the clearest way the game can communicate to you that you were successful - if you choose not to listen, that's your problem.
Yes, there's a minimum criteria for completing the alert. Success was achieved in that manner. The game rewards you for it. It doesn't cancel out the fact that an end point was implemented beyond Duraclad for the alert regardless and was designed for players to see through the whole alert to get there.
You view the stages after Duraclad as extra bonus rounds, I see them as part of the actual run.
Anyone can see that the extra rounds are just that, extra - if dps challenges aren't your cup of tea, then you're not the intended audience for those extra rounds (just like if survival challenges aren't your cup of tea, then Gravitar wasn't made for you). And that's fine, because everything doesn't have to be made for everyone. In fact, making specific challenges brings a very healthy amount of diversity to the game, especially when they formulate it like FM and let you objectively win via a more general challenge before you ever get to the specific challenge.
So okay, clearly there's an "intended" audience for Duraclad's exceptionally high DPS wall and everything after it, and yet for some reason anyone regardless of whatever build and role they're using somehow are able to participate?
The fight isn't gated to a specific type of player or role. It's accessible to everyone. That doesn't come off as it having an intended audience. Other MMOs have certain content that require the player to meet a certain stat/gear rating before they can even participate. Those MMOs have clearly defined the sort of audience intended for those content types. That's not the case with with Duraclad. If it was, you would find no argument from me.
If presentation of the alert is that anyone would be allowed to participate in the fight without a gate, and the game gives players the opportunity to use varying roles, then it's only natural to expect that there's a fair chance of winning the fight using a mixture of those varying roles and not forcefully bottleneck players into specific ones.
Yes, there's a minimum criteria for completing the alert. Success was achieved in that manner. The game rewards you for it. It doesn't cancel out the fact that an end point was implemented beyond Duraclad for the alert regardless and was designed for players to see through the whole alert to get there.
You view the stages after Duraclad as extra bonus rounds, I see them as part of the actual run.
Yes, we have our opinions which are meaningless; I mean hell someone could have the opinion that you win the alert just by showing up, and someone else could say you can never really win the alert no matter how many things you defeat.
All irrelevant because the game clearly defines at which point you win the alert. It's not that I consider them extra rounds, it's that the game defines them as such by not requiring them for victory conditions to be met.
So okay, clearly there's an "intended" audience for Duraclad's exceptionally high DPS wall and everything after it, and yet for some reason anyone regardless of whatever build and role they're using somehow are able to participate?
Yes. Just like everything else in the game. Even if they wanted to how could they gate people who can't complete the alert out of the challenge when people have made it all the way to the end of FM with builds that would in no way qualify as "min/max'd dps builds"? Given that reality, how do you define someone who can't do it?
The fight isn't gated to a specific type of player or role. It's accessible to everyone. That doesn't come off as it having an intended audience. Other MMOs have certain content that require the player to meet a certain stat/gear rating before they can even participate. Those MMOs have clearly defined the sort of audience intended for those content types. That's not the case with with Duraclad. If it was, you would find no argument from me.
Not letting people enter a certain tier of raid dungeons before they have a certain level of gear doesn't define a particular audience, because having a certain level of gear does not define your tastes, it only defines at what stage in the game's progression you're at. Not only that, it isn't even put in place to prevent people who can't complete the content, or who wouldn't enjoy it, from getting in (as evidenced by the many many videos of guilds completing content they don't have gear for). That sort of progression gating is put in place purely to extend the longevity of content.
If presentation of the alert is that anyone would be allowed to participate in the fight without a gate, and the game gives players the opportunity to use varying roles, then it's only natural to expect that there's a fair chance of winning the fight using a mixture of those varying roles and not forcefully bottleneck players into specific ones.
Again, people have made it to the end of FM using all of those varying roles. So how would you define players who should be gated out? Furthermore, given that reality, what basis is there for even putting such a gate into place?
I mean what, are you suggesting they implement some sort of dps test where the game tests if you have enough dps to beat the fight? They already have that... it's called the fight itself.
Some people will beat this, and they will do so using a variety of builds and roles, and some people will not - that doesn't make the fight unfair.
Yes. Just like everything else in the game. Even if they wanted to how could they gate people who can't complete the alert out of the challenge when people have made it all the way to the end of FM with builds that would in no way qualify as "min/max'd dps builds"? Given that reality, how do you define someone who can't do it?
I can't think of anything else in the game that puts so much emphasis in a specific role the way Duraclad does with DPS. Everything else in the game doesn't have any intended audiences that are role-related apart from level gates, unlike Duraclad. No, not even Gravitar with her 5-digit damage orange bubbles and instant full-charge cascade spams. The team doesn't specifically need dedicated healers or buffers to counter that for success. A dedicated tank isn't crucial either, just anyone who can take the beating.
Boss-level fights that I've come across always have had the different roles apart from DPS being relevant, maybe except CC, but that's not the fault of the player.
Again, people have made it to the end of FM using all of those varying roles. So how would you define players who should be gated out? Furthermore, given that reality, what basis is there for even putting such a gate into place?
Some people will beat this, and they will do so using a variety of builds and roles, and some people will not - that doesn't make the fight unfair.
I have a very hard time believing that teams consisting of casual builds that aren't created specifically for damage or are specially equipped for the fight in general, are actually winning Duraclad fights.
I've been in teams of varying builds and roles, who were obviously very competent, to try to take down even one of them. Nevermind the fact that Ironclad has two defensive passives on him. It became obvious to me I'd have to find a premade of people with the right specialist builds if there's any chance of success.
I mean what, are you suggesting they implement some sort of dps test where the game tests if you have enough dps to beat the fight? They already have that... it's called the fight itself.
I'm suggesting that the fight avoids putting emphasis on dedicated DPS that's enough to make non-DPS players irrelevant.
I have a very hard time believing that teams consisting of casual builds
'Casual' builds and DPS builds aren't the same thing. I would not really have trouble finding an all-tank team who can reliably win the stage, just because they're high end builds.
The CO Veteran Community has enough Power Creeps already, who try to squish every bit of DPS Digit from their Build and Gear
POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable and get experimental with Viable FF Theme builds! Running out of Unique FF builds due to the lack of updates and synergies! Playing since 1 February 2011 128 + Characters (21 ATs, 107 FFs) ALTitis for Life!
'Casual' builds and DPS builds aren't the same thing. I would not really have trouble finding an all-tank team who can reliably win the stage, just because they're high end builds.
If the so-called all-tank team is able to output the DPS needed to win Duraclad, then they're pretty specialized for DPS.
Also I don't recall Fire and Ice being a DPS race.
I didn't say it was. I said it places emphasis on a specific role (more accurately, two), in that it's extremely difficult to do without a good healer and tank.
I didn't say it was. I said it places emphasis on a specific role (more accurately, two), in that it's extremely difficult to do without a good healer and tank.
Right, but in comparison Duraclad places emphasis on just one role: DPS, and sets an alarmingly high bar at that by making it a timed race.
While I don't like losing to Duraclad, I'm not bothered by the timer itself. It's a challenge mission and you still get completion credit even if you don't reach the end. With a random pug that's not optimized, some things are just going to be hard. My issue is the weird difficulty curve and the specificity of the difficulty. It would be different if some people struggled against Duraclad, some struggled against Firewing, some struggled against someone else, and everyone had a different strength. Rather, everyone struggles against Duraclad while they can cleanly beat everything else if they can beat that duo. I'd like to see more variance in that. Also, if it were more visible that extra rounds gave more of a reward, progression would feel better, even if the reward amount was minor.
"Interesting builds are born from limitations not by letting players put everything into one build."
Selling Firewing as the final boss of Forum Malvanum after fighting Duraclad is like selling Marauder Shields as the final boss of Mass Effect 3 after defending the missile launchers in London.
Choose your enemies carefully, because they will define you / Make them interesting, because in some ways they will mind you
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
I'd sure like to meet these "hundreds" of people who get all the way to the end of FM. Only time I ever did was with a vehicle w/ PB before the nerf, and that felt like cheating, so I don't count it for myself.
I'd sure like to meet these "hundreds" of people who get all the way to the end of FM. Only time I ever did was with a vehicle w/ PB before the nerf, and that felt like cheating, so I don't count it for myself.
When pugging I reach the end about 25% of the time, when teaming up with 1 friend and 3 random players that goes to well over 50%. And when it fails, that is often because someone is pulling Duratok and Ironclad all over the map.
Just bring good dps, a fire build works very good, lightning or poison can do quite good too.
And btw, I dislike things like AO/AD chaining, or click powers with a cooldown that are used as dps buffs (MS, SR), so I don't use those. And no frankenbuilds, I only play well designed theme builds.
In order to maintain threat against top end DPS builds in this game you need a lot of DPS on your tank.
And that's why my Earth Tank build (using Challenging Strikes/Cripple Challenge) fails vs Gravitar because she focuses on a glorified 2GM Hybrid build because of pure DPS, something is obviously wrong here.
I take this quote from a review that I agree with.
"customisation is so linear; everyone is after the optimal dps:survivability ratio with 0 reliance on other players = autonomous gameplay... Players don't need each other anymore... which in my opinion is a bad thing."
When pugging I reach the end about 25% of the time, when teaming up with 1 friend and 3 random players that goes to well over 50%. And when it fails, that is often because someone is pulling Duratok and Ironclad all over the map.
Just bring good dps, a fire build works very good, lightning or poison can do quite good too.
And btw, I dislike things like AO/AD chaining, or click powers with a cooldown that are used as dps buffs (MS, SR), so I don't use those. And no frankenbuilds, I only play well designed theme builds.
And that's why my Earth Tank build (using Challenging Strikes/Cripple Challenge) fails vs Gravitar because she focuses on a glorified 2GM Hybrid build because of pure DPS, something is obviously wrong here.
Well, there's issues (most crippling challenge powers don't have enough damage and fast enough tic rates to be particularly useful for threat), but requiring dps to hold threat is not inherently wrong.
Gravitar also has baked in Kinetic Manipulation, so she does have a large chunk of ranged kinetic resistance, couple that with the fact that a Earth build is just plain slow for whatever reason.
Not to mention that those glorified 2GM Hybrids (Hybrid form, Defensive Passive, right?) work well in Gravitar due to the fact that a pure DPS Glass Cannon gets smushed because of random cascades and incidental damage from bubbles.
Fire and Ice is different, as you're not penalized for being a glass cannon in there since it's an actual MMO tank and spank with little AOE and incidental damage, and you're not playing roulette with cascades and bubbles.
jaazaniah1 should know they're probably out there:
I'd sure like to meet these "hundreds" of people who get all the way to the end of FM. Only time I ever did was with a vehicle w/ PB before the nerf, and that felt like cheating, so I don't count it for myself.
I've only made it three times (once the day it came out, and then a couple of times a few months ago). I am SO not "optimal" though, and all three times the group probably could have done it without me. With all the min/maxers in this game, I have no problem believing "hundreds" have made it at one time or another.
Comments
That's actually quite typical of CO (and even some other games). Not everything is designed to have a straight rising difficulty curve, and there's actually good reasons to do it that way.
There's also a lot of super hero movies and other action films that involve time limits
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Interplanetary gladiatorial combat? That's a dumb thing to time. In that scenario, it should be 'two men enter, one man leaves', instead of 'two men enter, but we don't know what really happens at the end because we attached a totally arbitrary time limit to this epic clash'.
I take this quote from a review that I agree with.
"customisation is so linear; everyone is after the optimal dps:survivability ratio with 0 reliance on other players = autonomous gameplay... Players don't need each other anymore... which in my opinion is a bad thing."
Explanation is simple: that master of the games guy said there's a time limit, so that's why there is one. He implemented that rule because you were doing too well, and he doesn't want some puny earth heroes winning his famous gladiator thing.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
/signed
This would be so much better (or at least less infuriating).
Would it? Or would people then just start complaining about the lock-out instead? You know, like they do about every lockout in the game so far... >.>
And wouldn't the "this fight favors dps!" complaint just turn into "this fight favors tanks!" or "this fight requires healers and tanks and trinity!"...
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Delete the Timer and make this Alert a LVL 40 Custom alert like Cybermind and lock the defeated members out as Penalty
The Timer is NOT working as Intended!
The Timer is NOT working as Intended!
The Timer is NOT working as Intended!
The Timer is NOT working as Intended!
The Timer is NOT working as Intended!
The Timer is NOT working as Intended!
The Timer is NOT FREAKING working as Intended!!
Because nothing says working as Intended as a Timer that starts counting from the Cutscenes
What kind of Freaking Colloseum handicapes your LVL and puts a freaking timer on Bosses
and Spams you with unskipable cutsenses?
This alert is incredible Horrible Designed
A DPS Race for DPS Wh0res, punishing Support, Hybrids, Tanks and ATs
Honestly this Alert had Potential to be Fun, but NOPE!
That is why I added "with flight TP". Both those bosses are melee, if you fly well out of melee range they'll only do lunges, but they only start doing that at 15 or 20 feet or so. So if you stay between 10 feet and that 15 or 20 feet range, they don't attack at all. They'll only try to walk up to you, which they can't since they can't fly.
Of course the zero gravity makes you gradually lose altitude, so it might require some practice.
RIP Caine
I definitely prefer a "DPS race" to lockouts. All lock-outs seem to do is make it so over-specced individuals get to be the "solo hero".
Well compared to the absurd DPS wall that the Duraclad fight is, I think a lockout replacing a timer is much more feasible.
The alert is supposed to be team-focused. If anyone wants to complain about the fight favoring tanks and requiring healers and trinity...D-U-H!, it's team content. Expect trinity.
A lockout means that non-DPS roles get to be relevant in the fight. Buffs, heals and drawing aggro would suddenly become much more applicable since it would strictly be about surviving the fight other than a stupid DPS race. Self-sustainable "jack of all trades" builds would perform with no lesser effectiveness.Teamwork would be emphasized on. Suddenly there would be much better challenge and not the fake challenge it is by putting a ridiculous amount of health behind a timer.
But I was speaking about Duraclad in FM specifically. I don't know about "all" lockouts pandering to the "solo hero", but if I'm interested to know just how many "solo heroes" are out there who have actually soloed Duraclad and actually beat the timer.
The point of the lockout is to prevent graveyard rushing. It takes away complacency and gives incentive for the team to work as a team or fail as a team. If you get thrown outside after respawning, then it's either time to find another PUG, attempt the fight again if you're in a premade team, or if stay around you think the remaining members of the team can still win the fight then join in for the next one.
That as a trade-off for getting rid of the timer doesn't look like a bad thing to me. It's not a perfect alternative, but it's much better than the unreasonable DPS wall we have currently.
However, I can't believe somebody has to say this to the same damn knuckleheads every damn time Forum Malvanum rotates in:
The timer is working as intended.
Cryptic North had a choice: Fix an engine they were unfamiliar with to allow cutscenes between waves; or leave the engine as-is and add the fixed length of the cutscene to the intended length of the mission timer. Trailturtle and/or LordGar have explained this multiple times.
Now I'm sure CN would rather have fixed the engine then. Maybe if they had time today, they would do it, if only to mollify the players who insist there's some grand conspiracy at work. Maybe, in my wildest dreams, Dan Stahl's Secret 4th Project is actually a complete rebuild of CO on a modern version of Cryptic Engine, not the rusted-out '88 Hyundai of a game engine we have today.
But we do have this '88 Hyundai, and fixing FM to start the Duraclad timer after the cutscene would require regression testing every single mid-mission cutscene in the game. Because if you have your britches in a twist over a timer, how would you react to dying in the middle of a Ghost Veil monologue?
</software-development-rant>
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
You know, when it gets to a point where I'm convinced to think "Yep, Duraclad. That's where this alert is going to end." each and every time I do FM, it's not challenge. It's not even "remotely" challenging. It's just me conceding to the fact that the fight is broken as heck and it's not due to the lack of effort on the team's part.
No, the timer isn't the "only" thing making it challenging. It's false challenge / difficulty. It's pigeon-holing players into using specialist DPS builds. There should be better alternatives. Expecting players to take down two bosses within a timeframe that does not justify the collective health + damage soak that they have is ludicrous, unless all team members are seriously optimized for DPS.
Not every encounter in the game needs to be exactly the same. Some can be this, others can be that.
And it's not as if you actually fail the alert if the timer runs out, you just didn't win it as much as those other people who got 1G extra reward.
This is the point where I would ask "does failing really hurt that much?" .... but to be accurate I have to ask "Does a slightly less rewarding victory hurt that much?".
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
There's a difference between a DPS race and a stupidly unfair DPS race. Smash alerts (for the most part) represent fair DPS races. Duraclad does not. Smash alerts are very winnable even if the team doesn't consist of heavy DPS builds. That isn't the case with Duraclad. If the fight is so broken that it makes non-DPS focused builds irrelevant then it's a problem.
As Pantagruel has mentioned, Defeating Firewing as the final boss is nowhere near just how absurdly difficult it is to defeat Duraclad. It makes no sense that the final boss is so much easier than a mid-level boss. Considering that FM is a tier-based gladiatorial arena and all about throwing more and more difficult opponents at you, this makes no damn sense at all.
Smash alerts don't represent a fair dps race... they represent a cakewalk. They represent "why is there even a timer on these?". If that's your baseline, then you're basically just back to saying there should be no dps races in the game.
FM is actually fair. What's not fair about letting you win before you ever even get to the timed part? That's the part you seem to want to keep ignoring... before that timer ever starts, you've already won the alert.
QUOTE=jennymachx;4497301]
As Pantagruel has mentioned, Defeating Firewing as the final boss is nowhere near just how absurdly difficult it is to defeat Duraclad. It makes no sense that the final boss is so much easier than a mid-level boss. Considering that FM is a tier-based gladiatorial arena and all about throwing more and more difficult opponents at you, this makes no damn sense at all.[/QUOTE]
Except that there are many examples in this game and others of an encounter's difficulty curve peaking at the middle.
If you're saying that Firewing should be more difficult, then that specific part is something I agree with, he could be a bit more lethal since his really dangerous attacks are entirely avoidable.
Duraclad is fine though - some people can beat it, some can't, and that's perfectly okay because it's a challenge round, it's only there for people who want that challenge (whatever type of challenge that specific challenge might be, since sometimes challenges are specific and not just general "fits all definitions of challenge" challenges). Like I said, your entire group could just stop and let the first timer run out and you would still win the Alert, so you can't really make the argument that the alert is unfair when victory is handed to you like that.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
*Go spill some blood on the sand, it will be glorious!*
*Go home Doctore, you're drunk.*
And playing by myself since Aug 2009
Godtier: Lifetime Subscriber
Yes, a reward worth accusations of unfairness for sure!
Yes.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
I already mentioned why I consider them fair DPS races because you don't need a team of DPS-specialist players to take down the boss villain's health within the time limit. I've only used Smash as a baseline because like Duraclad, they're both timed fights. It only made sense to.
Smash alerts aren't "cakewalks". There's still a very probable risk of failure. Grab alerts are the cakewalk alerts since you have unlimited tries at the boss via respawn rushing with no time limit, no matter how many times you faceplant, outside of the whole team quitting. That undeniably screams "cakewalk".
As to "why is there even a timer on these?" Isn't it obvious that it's to hinder respawn rushing, also considering that you spawn right next to where the boss villain is?
Not beating Duraclad is not "winning" the alert. Defeating every opponent thrown at you in the arena and coming out as the ultimate victors is winning the alert, especially with defeating Firewing, the final boss. What you're saying is akin to me playing Megaman 3, defeating all stage bosses on the grid then turning off the console and claiming victory without even trying to reach Dr. Wily.
There's a difference between a consolation "you tried your best" award and actual victory.
I never said that FM is unfair as a whole. I was saying that Duraclad is an unfair fight specifically for all the points already mentioned that I don't feel like repeating. Everything else about FM I have nothing against.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
The reward is besides the point. My main focus is on about making Duraclad a fairer fight, as in not pigeon-holing players into needing specialist-DPS builds to ever expect a chance of winning while making other roles irrelevant. I don't believe that the fact that there's a reward justifies the way Duraclad currently is.
The point of a staged challenge is all about reaching the end. There's always an end point and that end point is always the goal. Yes, you have small little victories at each completed tier, but ultimately it's still about reaching the end. The goal is there for players to try to reach otherwise why even bother creating an end point?
Also I never implied that there had to be 100% assurance to reaching the end. I suggested an alternative that could still make the fight challenging and where losing the fight would still be a possibility. If you're saying that I'm implying that it's an entitlement for players regardless of whatever is involved in the fights then you're mistaken.
Your personal subjective opinion of what winning the alert means or doesn't mean is irrelevant because the game very objectively defines the victory conditions for the alert by completing the mission for it and providing a reward circle. This is the clearest way the game can communicate to you that you were successful - if you choose not to listen, that's your problem.
Anyone can see that the extra rounds are just that, extra - if dps challenges aren't your cup of tea, then you're not the intended audience for those extra rounds (just like if survival challenges aren't your cup of tea, then Gravitar wasn't made for you). And that's fine, because everything doesn't have to be made for everyone. In fact, making specific challenges brings a very healthy amount of diversity to the game, especially when they formulate it like FM and let you objectively win via a more general challenge before you ever get to the specific challenge.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Yes, there's a minimum criteria for completing the alert. Success was achieved in that manner. The game rewards you for it. It doesn't cancel out the fact that an end point was implemented beyond Duraclad for the alert regardless and was designed for players to see through the whole alert to get there.
You view the stages after Duraclad as extra bonus rounds, I see them as part of the actual run.
So okay, clearly there's an "intended" audience for Duraclad's exceptionally high DPS wall and everything after it, and yet for some reason anyone regardless of whatever build and role they're using somehow are able to participate?
The fight isn't gated to a specific type of player or role. It's accessible to everyone. That doesn't come off as it having an intended audience. Other MMOs have certain content that require the player to meet a certain stat/gear rating before they can even participate. Those MMOs have clearly defined the sort of audience intended for those content types. That's not the case with with Duraclad. If it was, you would find no argument from me.
If presentation of the alert is that anyone would be allowed to participate in the fight without a gate, and the game gives players the opportunity to use varying roles, then it's only natural to expect that there's a fair chance of winning the fight using a mixture of those varying roles and not forcefully bottleneck players into specific ones.
Yes, we have our opinions which are meaningless; I mean hell someone could have the opinion that you win the alert just by showing up, and someone else could say you can never really win the alert no matter how many things you defeat.
All irrelevant because the game clearly defines at which point you win the alert. It's not that I consider them extra rounds, it's that the game defines them as such by not requiring them for victory conditions to be met.
Yes. Just like everything else in the game. Even if they wanted to how could they gate people who can't complete the alert out of the challenge when people have made it all the way to the end of FM with builds that would in no way qualify as "min/max'd dps builds"? Given that reality, how do you define someone who can't do it?
Not letting people enter a certain tier of raid dungeons before they have a certain level of gear doesn't define a particular audience, because having a certain level of gear does not define your tastes, it only defines at what stage in the game's progression you're at. Not only that, it isn't even put in place to prevent people who can't complete the content, or who wouldn't enjoy it, from getting in (as evidenced by the many many videos of guilds completing content they don't have gear for). That sort of progression gating is put in place purely to extend the longevity of content.
For obvious reasons, none of that applies to CO.
Again, people have made it to the end of FM using all of those varying roles. So how would you define players who should be gated out? Furthermore, given that reality, what basis is there for even putting such a gate into place?
I mean what, are you suggesting they implement some sort of dps test where the game tests if you have enough dps to beat the fight? They already have that... it's called the fight itself.
Some people will beat this, and they will do so using a variety of builds and roles, and some people will not - that doesn't make the fight unfair.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I can't think of anything else in the game that puts so much emphasis in a specific role the way Duraclad does with DPS. Everything else in the game doesn't have any intended audiences that are role-related apart from level gates, unlike Duraclad. No, not even Gravitar with her 5-digit damage orange bubbles and instant full-charge cascade spams. The team doesn't specifically need dedicated healers or buffers to counter that for success. A dedicated tank isn't crucial either, just anyone who can take the beating.
Boss-level fights that I've come across always have had the different roles apart from DPS being relevant, maybe except CC, but that's not the fault of the player.
I have a very hard time believing that teams consisting of casual builds that aren't created specifically for damage or are specially equipped for the fight in general, are actually winning Duraclad fights.
I've been in teams of varying builds and roles, who were obviously very competent, to try to take down even one of them. Nevermind the fact that Ironclad has two defensive passives on him. It became obvious to me I'd have to find a premade of people with the right specialist builds if there's any chance of success.
I'm suggesting that the fight avoids putting emphasis on dedicated DPS that's enough to make non-DPS players irrelevant.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
The CO Veteran Community has enough Power Creeps already, who try to squish every bit of DPS Digit from their Build and Gear
I didn't claim otherwise.
Also I don't recall Fire and Ice being a DPS race.
If the so-called all-tank team is able to output the DPS needed to win Duraclad, then they're pretty specialized for DPS.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Right, but in comparison Duraclad places emphasis on just one role: DPS, and sets an alarmingly high bar at that by making it a timed race.
-Sterga
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the PWE Community Rules and Policies -Kaiserin
When pugging I reach the end about 25% of the time, when teaming up with 1 friend and 3 random players that goes to well over 50%. And when it fails, that is often because someone is pulling Duratok and Ironclad all over the map.
Just bring good dps, a fire build works very good, lightning or poison can do quite good too.
And btw, I dislike things like AO/AD chaining, or click powers with a cooldown that are used as dps buffs (MS, SR), so I don't use those. And no frankenbuilds, I only play well designed theme builds.
And that's why my Earth Tank build (using Challenging Strikes/Cripple Challenge) fails vs Gravitar because she focuses on a glorified 2GM Hybrid build because of pure DPS, something is obviously wrong here.
I take this quote from a review that I agree with.
"customisation is so linear; everyone is after the optimal dps:survivability ratio with 0 reliance on other players = autonomous gameplay... Players don't need each other anymore... which in my opinion is a bad thing."
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Not to mention that those glorified 2GM Hybrids (Hybrid form, Defensive Passive, right?) work well in Gravitar due to the fact that a pure DPS Glass Cannon gets smushed because of random cascades and incidental damage from bubbles.
Fire and Ice is different, as you're not penalized for being a glass cannon in there since it's an actual MMO tank and spank with little AOE and incidental damage, and you're not playing roulette with cascades and bubbles.
I've only made it three times (once the day it came out, and then a couple of times a few months ago). I am SO not "optimal" though, and all three times the group probably could have done it without me. With all the min/maxers in this game, I have no problem believing "hundreds" have made it at one time or another.