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DC's New 52: Playing Devil's Advocate
cybersoldier1981
Posts: 2,501 Arc User
So, let me say something up front, the bottom line.
If you like something, that's cool. If you don't, it's equally cool. It's perfectly normal to be this way. Either way, there should be no butthurt on either end.
If your reason for liking or not liking something is petty, or you don't have your facts straight, or you just don't know what the hell you're talking about- I honestly don't care if this criticism stings you. It really -shouldn't-, you should probably say 'I'll look into that', or 'I get it, and I'm still not a fan'. But chances are... well, we'll see.
DC Launched its New 52, mainly because the entire DC-verse was rife with absurdity and Grant Morrison didn't have adult supervision. As expected, the fanbase of DC comics welcomed the changes and set out to discover this universe.
Nah, I'm kidding. The fanboys lost their minds and flipped out about everything, making 'New 52' a swear word.
So allow me to blaspheme. I actually am enjoying it.
So, what's the problem? Where are all these fans crying out that DC's New 52 is 'awful'? Well, here's my theory...
1- Most fanboys hate change. Plain and simple, fanboys hate things that change. When things change, you have to actually accept that maybe there' some catching up to do and you're no longer the subject-matter expert until you catch up. Change is good- that means we get new characters, new stories, new depth to existing characters... and in simple terms 'we aren't reading the same crap over and over again'. And when it comes to 'repetitive crap', DC pretty much mastered that years ago. At least now we're getting a Universe that is going to be dynamic and interesting, where we're not comfortable in knowing how everything will end based entirely on 'the tradition'.
Let's face it, when things change- it's a growing experience. I didn't like IDW's GI Joe comics at first glance, then I really got into it... and it's honestly doing the IP justice. Different, but still pretty awesome. I resisted at first, everyone does- but then I embraced it and loved it. I realized that the same old stories, the same old universe... well, it's not aging as well as I thought, so time to put a fresh spin on it.
The guy that runs the comic shop here put it best: "The guys whining about this? Half of them are guys that whined about Crisis, and the other half are new readers that Crisis brought in that the other fanboys hate. It's the one thing that has united them for one massive gripe-fest."
2- Fanboys can be petty. You know what the biggest complaints are in New 52 that I'm finding? Well, aside from the mindless 'why'd they have to go and change it?' whine that has no worth at all and sounds like 'whining for the sake of whining' to me, the complaints are even more petty.
Starfire's mean and slutty! Obviously, this is what happens when the Cartoon Network 'Teen Titans' is the only 'Teen Titans' you know. Wonder Woman and Superman are dating! Amazing how the characters have more chemistry than Lois and Clark half of the time. Their costumes changed! I can't even argue a style preference, but when people are complaining about this, I just shrug (I think they look a hell of a lot better than plain, non-textured tights).
And that's not even the worst complaint. Seriously, get this one: 'Mister Terrific and Power Girl shouldn't be a thing!' Really. An interracial couple in comics, and no one's given me a valid reason (I'd accept 'they lack chemistry' and say that's valid if someone used that). I can't even... just... wake me up when we're a functional society. I'm drinking away the dumb.
We have comics where Kyle Rayner's girlfriend was folded into a fridge to reduce her to a springboard for character development. Hank Pym beat his wife. And we're worried about an interracial couple.
Shoot me.
3- Most fanboys don't even know what they're talking about. Funny thing I found out when researching comic characters I don't really have an interest in (hoping to spark one)? A lot of people get their comics knowledge from Wikipedia and Tumblr. I'm not kidding. And most of the time, this isn't accurate at all.
Even worse- they get their opinions from Tumblr. Most of them 'know enough to hate it', but 'refuse to read it'. It's one thing for something to have no appeal, but it's really hard for me to hate something I don't know anything about. I can read a thing, maybe a few issues, and say 'this is garbage, I hate it' and throw it in the trash just like Marvel Zombies.
If you want to sound like you're 'in the know' with comics? Just borrow a popular opinion, and that popular opinion is that 'New 52 sucks' and the reasons to back that up are pretty much found in this writeup.
CONCLUSION
It's okay to not like New 52. It's okay to not want to read it. If you have your reasons, cool. If you just don't feel interested, cool.
But don't be a whiny neckbeard fanboy. Form your own opinion. Stop borrowing the opinions of self-professed 'critics' (because everyone is a critic) when a good portion of those 'critics' don't know anything outside Wikipedia, Tumblr, or an online character database.
The sad truth is, before comic book movies became a big deal- we didn't have this sort of problem. If you were in the know, it was because you'd read them. You didn't have every random goob out there claiming to be an expert, because being an expert on comics was something that could get you beat up at school.
If you like something, that's cool. If you don't, it's equally cool. It's perfectly normal to be this way. Either way, there should be no butthurt on either end.
If your reason for liking or not liking something is petty, or you don't have your facts straight, or you just don't know what the hell you're talking about- I honestly don't care if this criticism stings you. It really -shouldn't-, you should probably say 'I'll look into that', or 'I get it, and I'm still not a fan'. But chances are... well, we'll see.
DC Launched its New 52, mainly because the entire DC-verse was rife with absurdity and Grant Morrison didn't have adult supervision. As expected, the fanbase of DC comics welcomed the changes and set out to discover this universe.
Nah, I'm kidding. The fanboys lost their minds and flipped out about everything, making 'New 52' a swear word.
So allow me to blaspheme. I actually am enjoying it.
So, what's the problem? Where are all these fans crying out that DC's New 52 is 'awful'? Well, here's my theory...
1- Most fanboys hate change. Plain and simple, fanboys hate things that change. When things change, you have to actually accept that maybe there' some catching up to do and you're no longer the subject-matter expert until you catch up. Change is good- that means we get new characters, new stories, new depth to existing characters... and in simple terms 'we aren't reading the same crap over and over again'. And when it comes to 'repetitive crap', DC pretty much mastered that years ago. At least now we're getting a Universe that is going to be dynamic and interesting, where we're not comfortable in knowing how everything will end based entirely on 'the tradition'.
Let's face it, when things change- it's a growing experience. I didn't like IDW's GI Joe comics at first glance, then I really got into it... and it's honestly doing the IP justice. Different, but still pretty awesome. I resisted at first, everyone does- but then I embraced it and loved it. I realized that the same old stories, the same old universe... well, it's not aging as well as I thought, so time to put a fresh spin on it.
The guy that runs the comic shop here put it best: "The guys whining about this? Half of them are guys that whined about Crisis, and the other half are new readers that Crisis brought in that the other fanboys hate. It's the one thing that has united them for one massive gripe-fest."
2- Fanboys can be petty. You know what the biggest complaints are in New 52 that I'm finding? Well, aside from the mindless 'why'd they have to go and change it?' whine that has no worth at all and sounds like 'whining for the sake of whining' to me, the complaints are even more petty.
Starfire's mean and slutty! Obviously, this is what happens when the Cartoon Network 'Teen Titans' is the only 'Teen Titans' you know. Wonder Woman and Superman are dating! Amazing how the characters have more chemistry than Lois and Clark half of the time. Their costumes changed! I can't even argue a style preference, but when people are complaining about this, I just shrug (I think they look a hell of a lot better than plain, non-textured tights).
And that's not even the worst complaint. Seriously, get this one: 'Mister Terrific and Power Girl shouldn't be a thing!' Really. An interracial couple in comics, and no one's given me a valid reason (I'd accept 'they lack chemistry' and say that's valid if someone used that). I can't even... just... wake me up when we're a functional society. I'm drinking away the dumb.
We have comics where Kyle Rayner's girlfriend was folded into a fridge to reduce her to a springboard for character development. Hank Pym beat his wife. And we're worried about an interracial couple.
Shoot me.
3- Most fanboys don't even know what they're talking about. Funny thing I found out when researching comic characters I don't really have an interest in (hoping to spark one)? A lot of people get their comics knowledge from Wikipedia and Tumblr. I'm not kidding. And most of the time, this isn't accurate at all.
Even worse- they get their opinions from Tumblr. Most of them 'know enough to hate it', but 'refuse to read it'. It's one thing for something to have no appeal, but it's really hard for me to hate something I don't know anything about. I can read a thing, maybe a few issues, and say 'this is garbage, I hate it' and throw it in the trash just like Marvel Zombies.
If you want to sound like you're 'in the know' with comics? Just borrow a popular opinion, and that popular opinion is that 'New 52 sucks' and the reasons to back that up are pretty much found in this writeup.
CONCLUSION
It's okay to not like New 52. It's okay to not want to read it. If you have your reasons, cool. If you just don't feel interested, cool.
But don't be a whiny neckbeard fanboy. Form your own opinion. Stop borrowing the opinions of self-professed 'critics' (because everyone is a critic) when a good portion of those 'critics' don't know anything outside Wikipedia, Tumblr, or an online character database.
The sad truth is, before comic book movies became a big deal- we didn't have this sort of problem. If you were in the know, it was because you'd read them. You didn't have every random goob out there claiming to be an expert, because being an expert on comics was something that could get you beat up at school.
Post edited by cybersoldier1981 on
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Silverspar on PRIMUS
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They did make Nightwing, Batman for a time.
For a time. That's the problem. They didn't stick with it because they were afraid of the backlash from people. As pointed out in the OP people just hate change because it's different in the end.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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They can keep writing Bruce Wayne's Batman themed in the 60s (or before) and a new Batman themed in these days. I think the classic Batman looks better in those years where computers where not common and Internet did not exist.
I love "what if" stories that put characters in the time period they were created, then let them grow and mature through the decades. I also love the classic characters and enjoy seeing them reinterpreted again and again.
DC has a history of rebooting their universe once a decade or so, and in general I'm all for it. My only beef with The New 52 is it didn't clean up a lot of Batman's history with the Robins, all of which apparently took place in a few years now, and in general I don't care for the costumes. Let's face it, it was way past time to stop wearing out underpants over our tights. I love what they did with Superman's costume in Man of Steel, but the New 52 costume feels far less elegant. And all the costumes look the same! It's all high collars and segmented armor with chin straps. I guess they all use the same tailor, or maybe none of them were willing to pony up the Zen to unlock more options.
The poster formerly known as Lightwave!
If they wanted something somewhat iconic, they could redo it into leotard, but retain her emblem instead of boob window.
I was giving IDW a wide berth with their Transformers reboot, especially since some people doing it were also on board with Dreamwave fiasco. Surprise, it turned exceptionally well. I actually like it much more than original Marvel series.
I remember old GI Joe's from Marvel, though I never were a big fan (I had their GI Joe/TF crossovers, though). I think IDW reboot is a good modernisation.
Time will show if I can get used to Megatron wearing Autobot insignia, though...
Sometimes reboots are only for the best, especially when original series are very antiquated (and not in a good "classic" way).
That's pretty much where I stand with it. I'm not an avid reader of DC. So, I'm not invested (or knowledgeable : ) enough to say anything pro or con about it.
What I can say though is I; personally, don't care for reboots, as a reader/viewer. If I'm looking for something fresh, I just read something different.
I'm not saying that IPs shouldn't reboot. It's a good business practice. Just don't do it (or not do it) for my sake. If I'm bored enough to move on, I probably won't come back, even after a reboot.
I would, of course, be delighted to hear that this is no longer correct...
As for fanboys complaining about trivial things just because something's changed - I direct you to those who absolutely hate the Abrams-directed reboot of Star Trek (something for which Abrams is absolutely blamed, as well, even though he didn't write a word of it). Yet when you try to pin them down to what they don't like, what's the one complaint they all share in common? Lens flares. They're peeved that the bridge of the Enterprise looks like an Apple store with even harsher lighting.
(There are other complaints, but seldom shared among many people - for instance, some hate on Pine's performance, while others admit he channeled a young Bill Shatner with eerie precision; some hate the romance subplot between Spock and Uhura, while others can still recall the emotional Spock from "The Cage" and the implied romance in "Charlie X"; some hate the very idea of the reboot, while others say that it may have been necessary due to decades of tangled continuity. But everyone who complains about "JJTrek" hates the lens flare.)
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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The poster formerly known as Lightwave!
And as a diehard DC fangirlthingy this makes me sad.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
What do you mean, In some of the batman comics one of the robins becomes batman, after batman gives up his superhero life to have a kid, who ultimately becomes the new robin, when Bruce suffers a similar fate to his own parents demise, and then there is batman byond, where Bruce is too old to be batman, His story has been told and retold, but there are certain lores where the mantle is passed on?
Except it's already been removed as if it never happened. And Batman Beyond isn't even considered canon. Hell, Bruce Wayne, if you were take his actual age by Batman Beyond, would have been easily been in his 100s and we are talking about a character that has always been at peak physical condition, no matter the injuries he receives, mental scars or even jsut plain aging taking its toll.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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Marvel might be making strides with its roster, but they need to make improvements on their writing. I have not touched a Marvel comic since 2008- sometime around 'One More Day'... and I won't give them a red cent, because Marvel is making all the mistakes DC made and that's inexcusable. I enjoy their movies. They need to stick with movies. But I don't need Mary Sue Spider Man and more forced validation for Wolverine to be a credible character.
Batman Beyond Stupid was a cartoon. Sure there where comic on it but they were not canon. Also that Batman Beyond Stupid guy was Bruce's son ( some sorta oddball clone it was all very beyond stupid and dumb ).
Also the son you mention in that other thing is Damien Wayne and when he grows up he makes a deal with Satan and blows Gotham to hell. Thats heroic stuff right there.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
You mean the mistakes DC keeps making? I dunno about that, since Marvel's writing is honestly way better more often than not compared to DC.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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JJ can point to power-levelers in STO and claim it's canon. :biggrin:
I was able to accept the first film for the re-origin story it was, even if Orci & Kurtzman can't comprehend interstellar distances. (If you're gonna make Star Trek, you might want to get the stars right.)
Star Trek Into Darkness, however, was a [long string of expletives] disgrace. That much fanservice belongs in slashfic, not a $185,000,000 summer blockbuster. I'd love to know who Damon Lindelof has incriminating pictures of, because he $#!^ all over Gene Roddenberry's grave with Into Darkness. I'm going to stop now before I go off on my "Did they forget entire scenes when they shot Prometheus?" rant.
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
You've missed out on Superior Spiderman then , which is a shame cause its great, and it has the line " ready my Equipment. I'm going to perform a Parker'ectomy" .
Vote Otto 2016
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
A decade ago, I'd agree with you.
For reference:
ONE. MORE. DAY.
AKA: "Our fanboy writers are so afraid to progress a character, that we'll actually use ANGRY DEMON MAGIC to un-happen reality and retcon the last 10-15 years of character progress."
Marvel can just keep writing for 15-year-old kids. I don't see myself missing much at all.
Also:
Deathstroke > Deadpool.
Granted, it's a matter of preference. But even when I was a huge Marvel fan, I had to admit my favorite stories were DC. For every 'decent' Marvel story, I'll lay down 5, maybe even 10 DC stories that blow it out of the water.
New 52 is just like that only on a much larger scale. Superman's marriage just went POOF and hes now doing the nasty with wonder Woman and Catwoman forgets who Batman is ...and so on and so on.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
But in my honest opinion? it had a REASON. Spider-man's whole story had no purpose behind it. And honestly, I enjoyed Flashpoint. I honestly thought it was the spring cleaning DC needed. You can say 'they did the same thing', but let's be honest... DC NEEDED it. Spider-Man was rebooted just to appease the fanboy writers that wanted to rewrite the same stories they read when they were kids.
I mean, I'll be honest: Batman does not need 5 different titles, Batman Inc (with supporting characters) and Batman would be just fine. I don't think we need 3 different Leagues. I think DC's major problem in the past has been their inability to let characters go- some of them are really, really bad ideas that got recycled way too often.
Marvel, however, hasn't put out anything that entertains me. Except the MAX series, I kinda liked that. But, behold Marvel's house of (bad) ideas:
Deadpool. Frankenstein Punisher. Heroes Reborn. House of M. Civil War (good idea, bad execution). The list goes on and on, and matches DC in terms of bad ideas, and DC had a huge head start.
IMHO, Marvel and DC aren't really comparable. Marvel strikes me as a comic company geared toward a younger audience, and DC tries to straddle the line but caters more to older readers these days.
You can compare characters, if you want. Swamp Thing will always trump Man-Thing. Deathstroke will always trump Deadpool. John Constantine will always trump Dr. Strange. The list goes on.
Also, if you haven't read Swamp Thing or Hellblazer comics- you are missing out on some great stuff.
I like what I like, and I've TRIED to enjoy Marvel. I read some of the stuff, and just gave up because it was lousy. I've got a reason to dislike it. Tell me ONE good comic to pick up (not Mary Sue Spiderman) and I'll try. But my experience with Marvel before 2009-ish was consistent poor stories and bad decisions.
NOTE: I did flip through Superior, and I haven't been a fan of some of the art in Marvel these days... it's a bit... weird looking. Did I miss something?
When I refer to 'Mary Sue' Spider-Man, I'm discussing the Ultimates. Which probably should have died... when it died.
(Oh and Deadpool's not meant to be a competition to Deathstroke, just a parody.)
You know, Roddenberry isn't the perfect angel everyone believes he is. He envisioned Star Trek, but it wasn't him that continued it forward or even saved it.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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I've heard that it was a respectful nod and friendly jab. Granted, Deadpool got more popular (Marvel's always been better at marketing), and Deathstroke's... uh... 'thing' with Terra didn't do the character any favors.
Company to company? Marvel's made their mistakes. But now, I've lost all interest. I just can't go to Marvel for anything to intrigue me (new budget means I have to save and buy a collected edition at the bookstore).
DC's made theirs, too. Sorry- I don't think Morrison was the greatest thing since sliced bread (DC Blasphemy right there). And the whole fascination with Silver Age characters that should be forgotten? Eh, it's getting a little old. Pass the torch.
Right now, I think the two companies are looking at what each other did. DC seems to be trying to do what Marvel did right, and Marvel seems to be trying to do what DC did wrong. It'll sort out soon.
Side note: I've been ordering DC figures, and I've had to send 2 back already for similar problems- Opened them to put them on my shelf and Deathstroke's head was broken off and Batman's arm was broken. Completely, in the package. Anyone else collect and have these problems?
The smaller comics companies have some pretty cool stuff, anyway....
You're confusing 'loyalty' and 'purchasing products that please me'. Right now, Marvel isn't pleasing me. So, I'm kind of more loyal to whatever is making me happy. It's a company making my comics, not my wife.
Yeah... I trusted a smaller company once.
It was called 'Image'.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
Judging the small market press by Image is like judging all your neighbors by that one neighbor who plays his music too loud. Each one is different.
I know. I was making a joke.
Dynamite wasn't too bad. I enjoyed the Black Terror solo series.
Also, I like the Millarverse comics, even if they do make me feel terrible for enjoying them.
*edit* and Aquaman .....which is strange he has been oddly badass of late :I
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
(Oh, BTW, Bruce Wayne never quit his Batman gig to have a son - Talia al'Ghul, Ras' daughter, bore Damien without telling Bruce, then trained the boy up to kill his father. Damien changed sides at the last minute, and got to be Robin, as Tim Drake had recently moved on. Later, when Bruce was "dead" (like DC would ever kill their cash cow), Richard Grayson came back to don the cowl, with Damien serving as his Robin as well. I haven't read the title for a while, but didn't Damien die recently?)
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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Aquaman's always been badass. It's just that too many people's sole exposure to the character was the Super Friends.
You pretty much nailed it.
But, 'IMPERIUS REX!' is a pretty badass war cry.
It was interesting how ST:JJ played out, because I had always been a fence sitter in the TNG vs TOS, Spock vs Kirk fights. This allowed me to pit both sides against each other, as a true Devil's Advocate would, and enjoyed every juicy minute of it.
Now, I know what you're thinking, Spock v Kirk? You mean Picard v Kirk, right?! No, I mean that TNG was more of a Spock driven universe, especially after killing Kirk in the movies. The only place Kirk-ers had left was TOS, which is why they were so stoked for the reboot by Abrams.
Lo and behold, in one fell swoop O&K annihilated the TOS-verse and TOS-Kirk, giving it the sleek, dazzling veneer of 1980's TNG, with a Spock centered story no-less. It was the greatest victory for TNG-ers. My problem was that it did too good of a job on the TOS-Kirkies. They're now basically playing the 'I'll wait till they retcon everything back. Later gators.' game, which isn't fun for me at all.
I won't say much for ...Darkness, save that it wasn't a good movie, period, and therefore shouldn't really mean much in the Old v New battles ('cause some old stuff stunk too).
Hank Pym gets grief over hitting Wasp, The Wasp could easily break Hank in two U_U , Namor flings a slap towards one of the Marvel Universes most powerful Heroines. Lets be honest Sue Richard is a higher tier than Namor. Both guys where taking their life in thar hands. And they both get called awful, awful fictional peoples .
Read the New 52 SuperGirl form its beginning to current and tell me how many time she has walloped her all very human and normal love interest. That guy doesn't stand a chance against an almost god like alien with DEATH RAY EYES..... and she gets away with it cause shes a girl.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
The fact that it happened once in the comic and he gets labeled a wife beater baffles me. What baffles me more if how people who say they're fans of comics keep referring to it too.
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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Been giving All-New Invaders a shot...I always liked Jim Hammond, but still not sure what to make of the series.
In the last issue of Captain America I read the villain was an elderly hippie with a spout in his head that can produce reality altering LSD fueled mind bubbles...
yeah, freaky stuff.
Make Mine Marvel!