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Making CO more like Champions PnP
nieves
Posts: 25 Arc User
1) Sanctuary: This is the place where all of the good guys and bad guys who are supers can be themselves and not have to worry about fighting, or anybody trying to arrest anybody.
2) Viper: Will the real Viper please stand up? In Champions, you never, let me re-iterate, NEVER see non-powered Viper agents by themselves, and when you do, it's a trap. All Viper units are called 5 Teams, because that is the smallest unit size in Viper. Period. Seeing one, two, or even three Viper agents standing around, waiting to be bagged really makes Viper less of a global threat, with a standing army, cutting edge technology, and the best attorneys that dirty money can buy, backed by several megacorporations from around the globe, and makes them more of a chump organization of dimwits who couldn't flip on a light switch in the dark.
3) Eurostar: Europe had a villain organization that was bad to the bone, with Menton's own little sister, the only psi capable of approaching him in power, in their fold.
4) Professor Muerte: Where is he and the rest of his Dr Destroyer flunkie crew?
5) C.L.O.W.N.: The Criminal Legion Of Wacky Non-conformists made Foxbat look pathetic in the laughs catergory, and the Champions made him look pathetic in the Power category. What gives? Is the closest thing we get to that those mega-flops, the Maniacs?! Seriously???
6) Real Advantages, and even Disadvantages: Being a player fire-based character, I should be able to have a damage reduction available to me vs Fire based attacks. Being made of fire, this goober comes up to me, spits fire and takes me out? No. Fail. I want damage reduction. And, how about having Hunted or Watched, where villains, or even the government are always somewhere in the background, lurking and waiting for their oportunity to make my day just that much more interesting? Or Favors, where I can call upon PRIMUS' resources to help deal with an issue that may be just a tad out of my reach?
The list goes on and on. Just pick up a few Champions books, and you'll see a lot more that can be done to draw and keep the crowd. I love the game, and I think it could be so much more! Of course, I was more of a 1990's, Pre-R.Talsorian Fusion fan; but, I imagine the game, for the most part is very very similar to the way it was.
2) Viper: Will the real Viper please stand up? In Champions, you never, let me re-iterate, NEVER see non-powered Viper agents by themselves, and when you do, it's a trap. All Viper units are called 5 Teams, because that is the smallest unit size in Viper. Period. Seeing one, two, or even three Viper agents standing around, waiting to be bagged really makes Viper less of a global threat, with a standing army, cutting edge technology, and the best attorneys that dirty money can buy, backed by several megacorporations from around the globe, and makes them more of a chump organization of dimwits who couldn't flip on a light switch in the dark.
3) Eurostar: Europe had a villain organization that was bad to the bone, with Menton's own little sister, the only psi capable of approaching him in power, in their fold.
4) Professor Muerte: Where is he and the rest of his Dr Destroyer flunkie crew?
5) C.L.O.W.N.: The Criminal Legion Of Wacky Non-conformists made Foxbat look pathetic in the laughs catergory, and the Champions made him look pathetic in the Power category. What gives? Is the closest thing we get to that those mega-flops, the Maniacs?! Seriously???
6) Real Advantages, and even Disadvantages: Being a player fire-based character, I should be able to have a damage reduction available to me vs Fire based attacks. Being made of fire, this goober comes up to me, spits fire and takes me out? No. Fail. I want damage reduction. And, how about having Hunted or Watched, where villains, or even the government are always somewhere in the background, lurking and waiting for their oportunity to make my day just that much more interesting? Or Favors, where I can call upon PRIMUS' resources to help deal with an issue that may be just a tad out of my reach?
The list goes on and on. Just pick up a few Champions books, and you'll see a lot more that can be done to draw and keep the crowd. I love the game, and I think it could be so much more! Of course, I was more of a 1990's, Pre-R.Talsorian Fusion fan; but, I imagine the game, for the most part is very very similar to the way it was.
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And the issue with Foxy, powerwise, is that GMs keep forgetting to spend his XP. (Villains get XP too, you know.) When I got around to that, back in 3rd ed in the '80s, my players were a tad startled to find that Foxbat wasn't the joke he was when they first met - not with the boot jets to enhance his Gliding, and the gun turned into an OIF built into his sleeve rather than an OAF, and the improved armor, and...
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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Except 'arresting' is the common sense way of telling the manchildren who make RAWR I CANZ KILL ALL HOOMANZ demonlord ninja-assassin mercenary gods to grow the hell up.
But yes, I agree. It would also help with people who think carrying a firearm is illegal. Or that enforce laws that don't exist. Or arrest people in a manner that in no way would hold up in court. Or conduct themselves as a detaining authority and pretty much create their own lawsuit.
TYPICAL CAPE MANCHILD: "I realize that you are in a place surrounded by childish drama-queen superhumans that could melt a Buick with a dirty look, but that .40 Smith and Wesson on your hip is DANGEROUS! I'm going to arrest you!"
ME: "Molon Labe. Also, I'm recording this- get ready for 'leper' status with the American pro-gun-ownership population."
I always thought Viper would be better if someone at Cryptic picked up GI Joe: Cobra from IDW. That's pretty much how they are, and the typical Viper trooper should be able to scoff at a pair of Green Berets.
Respectfully disagree. CO desperately needs to step away from the slapstick chuckle-silly B.S., because for anyone who has actually read a comic this sort of thing is borderline stupid- like an episode of Animaniacs pretending to be superheroes and parody them.
VIPER is based on HYDRA more than COBRA.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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True, because it predates them by... I think 3 years.
I'm just saying. Cobra > Hydra. Read those comics I mentioned.
1) Sanctuary is not a feature of the current official PnP setting. Its role has essentially been filled by Gran Cienelago Island, an artificial island resort in the Caribbean. Its existence is a secret known only within the superhero community, and reinforced by sophisticated cloaking technology. It's only open to heroes, no villains allowed. (The resort is fully described in the book, Cops, Crews, And Cabals.) The concept of Sanctuary -- a publicly-known location where infamous, dangerous criminals sought refuge from the law, and freely mingled with law-and-order heroes -- was deemed by many Champs PnP fans to strain credibility too far. Not unlike CO's version of Club Caprice.
2) The book VIPER: Coils Of The Serpent makes the agents of VIPER its backbone, rather than its supers. They command a host of powerful weapons, vehicles, sophisticated tactics, and a range of highly-trained elite units. I fear that VIPER agents in CO suffer from being cast in the mob role of nameless mooks that the heroes wade through on their way to the "real" boss fight, that's common in so many MMORPGs.
3) No argument about Eurostar. The lore considers them the most dangerous supervillain team on the planet. I'd love to see them in CO. But see also below.
4) In current continuity, Prof. Muerte is dead. Very thoroughly and emphatically dead. His Terror Inc. allies, Scorpia and Feurmacher, treacherously murdered him and dumped his corpse into the sea, then joined Eurostar. Dr. Destroyer does have an official cadre of super-powered flunkies in PnP lore, beyond Gigaton and Rakshasa. I'd love to see them in CO too -- they let you defeat Destroyer's plans without having to face the arch-villain himself.
5) CLOWN was left out of the reboot which launched the current incarnation of the CU, because former Hero Games Line Developer Steve Long hates them. Really hates them. To him, a whole team of comic-relief characters is overkill. The setting does have a few zany solo villains: Foxbat of course, Bulldozer, Zigzag, a few others depending on the circumstances. But Perfect World presumably owns the rights to CLOWN and could bring them back if desired.
6) I don't know enough about the implementation of computer-game mechanics to comment intelligently on this issue. Again, as a PnP Champs fan I'd love to see greater similarities between that game and CO in general.
This... though many players already complain that VIPER is too tough due to brickbusters. I argue they are not tough enough. Facing well trained VIPER agents should put any hero though his or her paces. This is a well-funded and technologically advanced shadow organization - they should have weapons and devices to handle super human threats.
Now of course I want o find and read a copy of VIPER: Coils Of The Serpent. It's been a good two decades since I've touched a Champions PnP book.
One thing I'm still hoping for is that we see the Moon Base Serenity & the Star*Guard! That would really be an awesome addition to the game.
That book contains enough stuff to make opposing VIPER the focus of an entire campaign. Current VIPER is vast, diverse, insidious, and actively pursuing every type of power it can: military, technological, financial, social, superhuman. It has a fascinating backstory, too; its roots and secrets are much older and deeper than almost anyone realizes.
It doesn't sound like you've seen the book Champions Beyond yet. It has a whole chapter detailing the Star*Guard, and others describing the many alien races and powerful entities inhabiting Champions outer space. Another chapter deals with Earth's Moon -- there's a helluva lot happening there.
Eurostar could work as a rampage themed mission, either in MC or VB.
CLOWN would be a good idea for a themed event, like the current FOXCON arc.
Then there are the low-superhuman-class agents; the Draysha serpent-men; the snake-magic-wielding Serpent Mages; and the Takara-Shinja, an order of ninja-like warrior-assassins.
Weaponry is diverse and comes in various sizes, from pistols to man-portable cannons: pulson blasters, lasers, sonics, tanglewebs, flares, tasers, flame throwers, acid sprayers, contact and gaseous poisons, freeze rays, electric power drainers, and neural scramblers. Vehicles include armed motocycles, armored vans, tanks, air-cycles, hovercraft, VTOL gunships, jet fighters, and armed minisubs.
DEMON could start spamming Ebon Ruins, Argent can throw ice nades then call in strafing runs. PSI could have cloaked agents using Ego Sleep into Shadow Strike...
And you wonder why no one takes you seriously
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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Yeah, physics is kind of a big deal.
Backfire flies in a cloud of flame, and can generate fire in a number of forms that oddly still never kill anyone.
Captain Americlown wields a number of different firearms. At least one of them is capable of firing on unarmored targets in sustained-fire mode, and rendering them unconscious (since superheroes don't kill).
Hypernova can lift a truck without breaking a sweat, and without breaking the truck, and can fly at will.
Physics? What's that?
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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That needed to be fixed.
And if there is no physics in your setting, then no firearm has any right to work at all. With nonlethal bullets, or not.
Now, forgive me. Some evildoers need to be welcomed with excessive use of force. If they're lucky, they may even survive, who knows?
Your type of superheroes don't kill. I 100% support you playing whatever superhero you like, any way you like. There is no 'wrong' way to be a hero, unless he's a sexual predator or some self-serving sociopath. However, let me say something...
Too many people have a black-and-white mindset either about characters, or in character in roleplay. I partially blame CO's poor writing and cheesy parody of a superhero setting. And in my opinion, nothing you can say will make me see CO's writing as anything more than a parody, because there is no way that the writers respected comics in any way. If the game was more serious, or rather 'serious about making it feel like a superhero game', we wouldn't have so much of this mindset.
However, my characters work in a way that's similar to the real world when it comes to the way people see things. There are shades of grey, and being too far on either side of the spectrum shouldn't be taken too seriously. After all, I've always believed that if there's nothing in this world worth killing for; then you've never truly loved something, you've never met a real monster, or you're fortunate to never have been placed in a situation where that's your only option. I equal parts pity and envy you.
If a character is more than capable of handling every situation without taking a life, that's less his morality and more his writer (or player) dictating the circumstances. Batman doesn't have to kill people (even though he totally used to all the damned time), but Gotham and the world as a whole would be a hell of a lot better if he killed the Joker- and to this effect Bruce Wayne has placed his personal feelings ahead of the safety and lives of countless innocent people. Superman shouldn't be killing dudes, because really there's not much in this world that poses a real threat to his life, and him murdering a bank robber is outright Super-douchery.
Overall, the entire 'no killing' rule isn't a choice by the writers or the characters- it was forced on them by the Comics Code Authority, which anyone can tell you was a trumped-up scare with no basis. In my personal opinion, the Silver Age was the absolute worst age in comics history and every step we take away from it is a step in the right direction.
That being said, to have any say that 'taking a life in any way is murder' means this person has no right to be enforcing any law on the face of the earth in any civilized country. Don't get it twisted- there's nothing right about just rolling in and slaughtering people in droves like some Psychopath and saying 'they were bad'. The Punisher is shunned for a reason... but at the same time, no one's really stopped the guy, either. Why? because most of the superheroes have enough sense to see the reality of it. Even Red Hood gets sort of a pass from Batman, because Batman doesn't agree with his methods but he sees genuine results (as long as Red Hood stays the hell out of Gotham).
There is a huge difference between wholesale slaughter of 'bad guys' and the harsh reality of having to take the life of an enemy in combat. If your character enjoys taking a life, for ANY reason, he's got problems and needs severe psychological help.
I play a pragmatic character. He doesn't concern himself with bank robbers, street gangs, and other standard criminals. Granted, he'll stop a crime if he's in a position to do something. But he also would rather see an addict get real medical rehab, a thief return what he stole, and any other sort of criminal stand a fair trial and repay their debt to society and rehabilitate. But those aren't his focus- his targets are Nephilim from his parent dimension, deranged mutant cultists worshipping ancient and otherworldly horrors, ravaging cyber-terror killing machines, and rogue superhumans that don't think human law applies to them. Would he kill one of those threats? Yes, and he does. Has he killed regular criminals or other bad guys? Yes, in combat situations where either their numbers or equipment posed a legitimate threat to his life and liberty and the lives and liberties of innocents/teammates. Does he get off on it? No, he'd rather it not be that way- but he's a realist. These things happen. No sane person wants to kill, but no real hero places his personal convictions ahead of the lives of innocent people.
Also, anyone who calls him a superhero usually gets told not to. He's 'doing what needs to be done' because 'if the superheroes did their job properly, I wouldn't have one'. He's also kind of racist against Superhumans, and the truth of the matter is that the role-playing community's response to him inspired me to do this, especially when traditional-ish hero players blatantly told me that he was "A lame, edgy badass-wannabe antihero" and that I "should probably not even try to roleplay". I have these players to thank for helping me give my character a background that added depth to him, one that goes far deeper than what I saw from these players' characters (which was standing around and spouting trope lines and not-so-subtle gay innuendo while thinking they were better than anyone who went to Club Caprice).
Overall, what I'm saying is that to lump every superhero in the same category and hold them to the same standard means that the world of comic books would be boring and predictable, and make the myriad of different characters not a thing.
That being said, the setting needs no-kill heroes. It needs no-gun heroes. It needs them just as bad as it needs maniacal villains and twisted monsters. But to expect there to be nothing between them actually makes the setting a bland and poorly-respected one.
Since she's not a "natural" speedster like Flash or Kinetic, there is no kind of metahuman physics-altering field surrounding her, only huge mass of metal and machinery capable of moving at hypersonic speed.
If there is an armed man brandishing guns at bystanders, and she will run into this man at hypersonic speed, said criminal will die anyway in a very messy manner. Since her hands will also carry this kinetic energy coming from one metric ton of metal moving at this speed. There will be a big wet *splat* and a guy smeared into thin paste and bloody bits, whether she want's it, or not. Physics.
With innocent people around there is no time for slowing to more mundane speed, since some innocent bystander may die...
May as well just shoot the guy. Outcome will be the same, and at least there will be something to put in the coffin. :biggrin:
Well, actually, shooting or cutting of limbs is a more non-lethal manner, since there is at least slight chance for survival.
Yes, my heroes are bound by laws of physics, unless their powers are explicitly overriding said laws.
But Deathlark doesn't cal herself a hero. "I'm not driven by heroism, but by necessity."
However, in a super-hero setting, I let it go... to a point. Especially when it comes to characters interacting with each other and using these powers. You're not going to dodge a sniper's bullet, no matter how fast you are- because bullets move faster than the speed of sound, and you've already been hit before you hear the shot. You're not going to use nightvision to see through a smokescreen. Some things are 'common sense' in the physics world, and I don't call ignoring that God-moding... I call it a blatant disrespect of other players and their characters. Now, I'm not saying 'munitions should faceroll everyone'. Far from it- but if your idea of 'winning' requires you to contribute little to no effort or thought, then you don't deserve to win.
On the level of 'morality and killing', allow me to share an experience...
HERO: "So, you've killed people?"
ARMIGER: "Yes, I was a Marine in Afghanistan. And there have been certain incidents. I'd rather not do that, but sometimes it's just what you have to do."
HERO: "You're a bloodlthirsty killer. If I could, I'd put you in jail."
ARMIGER: "You have no concept of the law in regards to the matter. If I could, I would see to it you aren't allowed out of your playpen without adult supervision and some kind of shock collar."
HERO: "Well, REAL heroes don't use guns, and they don't kill people."
ARMIGER: "Keep talking, Veteran's Day is just around the corner and I'm sure your thoughts will be cherished by many on Youtube."
HERO: "If you want to fight crime, do it the right way. Sure, I like beating those Purple Gangers senseless. But I don't kill them." [character chuckles and grins]
ARMIGER: "So you're saying that you enjoy using your super powers to inflict pain and injury on non-powered street level criminals. This is fun to you, apparently. You do realize that this is a sign of a sociopath, right?"
HERO PLAYER: (Sorry, I'm putting you on ignore because you're just a raging douchebag)
I have to give credit where it's due- people like this help me narrow my search for mature, intelligent players.
If we're going to concern ourselves with physics, then we should all be in prison for the multiple murders of all those street gangsters we had to handle in the opening arc, because there's no way an unarmored thug is going to survive being hit by a superpowered punch/shot multiple times at close range/incinerated by a flame blast/thrown into a wall by a burst of kinetic force/encased in solid ice/hacked with a sword - well, you get what I'm driving at, yes?
Again - physics? What physics?
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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If we're just basing this on gameplay, I've damned near committed genocide because I want someone's trousers to fall off so I can wear them.
EXCESSIVE FORCE
"A police officer or sanctioned superhero who uses excessive force when arresting a suspect can be prosecuted or sued. The test for whether force is excessive is one of objective reasonableness: a particular degree of force is allowable if it would be used by a reasonable police officer on the scene in light of the need for split-second decision-making in a potentially lethal situation. This is a lenient test which disregards the officer's underlying intent or motivation."
DEFENSES TO CRIMES
"People who are attacked have a legal right to defend themselves, but there are some restrictions on how much force they can use. The main distinction is between deadly and non-deadly force. An individual who's without fault can use whatever amount of non-deadly force reasonably appears necessary to protect himself from an imminent unlawful attack. He can use deadly force when he's without fault and reasonably believes he's threatened with imminent death or great bodily harm...
The standards for defending another person are basically the same as those for self-defense. However, the individual claiming a "defense of others" defense must have reasonably believed the person he saved would have had the right to use force in his own defense."
It's worth remembering that in the Champions Universe, law-enforcement has the resources to apprehend superhumans who flagrantly violate these principles, up to and including superheroes sanctioned or employed by the government. Vigilante "heroes" who routinely and deliberately kill supervillains, such as Thunderbird, are considered criminals and actively pursued.
While I sympathize with your point to a degree, a player taking this perspective for his character isn't necessarily guilty of bad role-playing. In the PnP game there are things called "Complications" -- qualities a character can take which aren't beneficial and may even cause the character difficulties, but help define him and may springboard interesting plot developments. "Psychological Complications" reflect the character's state of mind, and one common one is "Code vs. Killing." The magnitude of this Complication can vary based on how strong the character's commitment to it is, depending on the circumstances. At the Total level the character will never kill, nor allow someone else to do so.
There are people in the real world with this kind of commitment, who hold just the sort of opinion you describe of people who have killed, whatever their circumstances. Some of them have a reasonable philosophical basis for their view; others, as you point out, are oblivious to their own real motivations. Whether another person disagrees with the character, or questions the character's motives, IMHO it's a fair approach to take from a role-playing point of view, provided they don't aggressively denigrate differing viewpoints expressed by others, and that all parties accept the distinction between interactions that are IC and OOC.
Over their many years of existence, superhero comic-books have developed their own set of fairly consistent operating principles, which have become so persistent in the genre that people accept them despite their real-world impossibility. Super-strong people can punch someone so hard they're flung back for miles, without the opposite reaction recoiling the puncher an equal distance. Highly-trained people can dodge bullets, provided they can perceive the attack coming and anticipate it. Blasts of energy can hit people like a concussive wave, without necessarily burning them or piercing their skin. These situations are so common, we accept them as part of the genre. But normal people still die when hit with normal bullets. Natural fire burns things and people to carbon. Massive weights crush and flatten non-super things. That's why they need superheroes to save them. :biggrin:
Apparently the same force that makes cars and computers in MC working. You are exaggerating only to make your point, that doesn't stand at all. Physics in comic books is simply very selective. It doesn't mean physics doesn't exist at all.
It's only up to the player how much of it he wants to use with his character.
Obviously goofy characters with clown characterisation work better in setting with less or no realism. Doesn't apply to characters with more realistic approach.
They are usually fighting crime in their home country. Police do not routinely kill criminals.
If your hero is in a war zone, fighting another nation, or perhaps a paramilitary group (like Viper in Serpent Lantern), then different rules, customes, and laws may apply.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.