I want to address some of the additions before I respond to some of the posts here.
First, some bugs that you introduced, along with a few of the 'features'.
Bug: Biosteel endurance regen is now being double counted.
Bug: Damage reduction penetration takes off X percentage of the damage reduction, rather than the actual percentage.
Bug: Mods continue to vary in placement on the tool bar randomly.
'Feature': The vehicle shop does not display any information regarding the vehicles or mods available. It is a showroom without stickers. Want Attack/Def/Speed info? You're out of luck. Want slot information? Out of luck. Want mod information on what actual base damage is, or base energy use, or what a mod actually does - like a description of any skill available via right click dragging? Out of luck. Probably not the best way to convince someone to spend multiple thousands of zen on something.
'Feature': Mark II vehicles provide almost no benefit versus Mark I.
Example tested: Fully modded Desert Fox that I had sitting around in my PTS inventory.
Mark I:
Base HP: 13290 Base Energy: 100
Att 3.5/Def 4.5/Speed 2
5000 damage for railgun. 800 damage for incin. (Using roughly 40% damage increase mods.)
Mark II:
Base HP: 18416 Base Energy: 100
Att 4.5/Def 7.5/Speed 3
Except...as those of us who have tested vehicles repeatedly, the base numbers on Att/Def mean almost nothing when it comes to actual base damage - since that is determined almost entirely by the vehicle platform, and modified by def/support mods.
So this shouldn't be surprising:
5092 damage for rail gun. 814 damage for incin. (Using the same mods as on Mark I).
So basically, for the substantial amount of Zen you're requiring...you get a 1.8% increase in your damage. I could say more about it, but think this speaks for itself.
Freeform characters cost real money. Either a monthly sub or 5000 zen. That's a lot more than a tricked out vehicle.
And this is where there's a major problem for Cryptic in dealing with the remaining few CO whale customers, because this is incorrect.
Point 1:
The average tricked out vehicle has generally cost anywhere between 7000-10000 globals to assemble. The vehicle mod packs have reduced this cost slightly (along with incin prices going down with the fire ant), but at a 1-1 zen/global conversion rate, there are any number of players who have invested far more in vehicles to this point than they have in freeform slots or subs.
Except...just like FF slots, people have bought multiple vehicles and outfitted them. And that, in turn, tends to require actual zen purchases for multiple hundreds of dollars.
Point 2:
What is particularly galling about the Mark II program - and what has not been brought up yet - is that you are now telling people who paid substantial premiums for 8 slot vehicles (especially the specialty lockbox ones) that their premium is worthless, because anybody who has bought a cheap, low end vehicle can now get the EXACT same amount of slots that you paid dearly for - at a much cheaper price.
There can and should be compensation for those players who paid up for 8 slotters.
nerfing vehicle weapon range not needed when we have enemies with AI ALREADY IN GAME which handle that.
Just to be clear, its ok for a power to work in a manner that trivializes or even breaks most encounters in the game so long as there is one foe in the entire game that it does not break ?
Just to be clear, its ok for a power to work in a manner that trivializes or even breaks most encounters in the game so long as there is one foe in the entire game that it does not break ?
Even I understood her point. What she's saying is fix the AI, because its clearly shown in game that the AI can handle it when programmed to.
Vehicles are way out of line compared to players. Please reign in Vehicle health, at best the tanky ones should have 13k health.
Please reign in Hyperkinetic Dampening field. It's a perma rank3 block with no drawback. Vastly reduce its effectiveness, put a long cooldown on it, or change it to something resembling a player block.
Unlike players, vehicles do not have any major self healing available besides a single, long (30 second) recharge heal that provides a 40% or 80% HOT, and also requires the vehicle to stay still and in the field generated. It also reduces the slots available for any other items, not an insubstantial loss.
Thus, toughness should be substantially higher than players. I have no problem with either HPs or shielding being somewhat more effective than on players, since the options available to vehicles to stay alive are far lower.
Regarding the Hyperkinetic Dampening Shield, I would suggest making it a toggle power that would drain mainly 3% of the vehicles energy per second or something while turned on. With a decent weapon rotation, you could basically keep it turned in forever.
(emphasis added)
The issue is not the HK shield energy consumption - which is fine where it is - and never has been. Nor is the issue DPS or 120' range or multiple targets or cooldowns, where the massive changes will produce equally massive unintended consequences at best.
The underlying issue has always been for a certain -few- vehicle mods that the DPES has been badly out of whack since they were introduced. As in, you shouldn't be able to do 50k damage to multiple targets with only a tiny tick down of your energy bar, which a handful of vehicle mods (aka the 'decent weapon rotation') provide.
Unfortunately none of the 'fixes' proposed do a thing about this. I may put together a longer thread on this subject with some better ideas on how to balance vehicles than have been presented so far.
Where are these people? Most posts I see on the forums are either folks that want the vehicles even weaker and ones that just want them to have a equal shake, I don't think I've once seen someone say the vehicles should be better than a hero on foot.
There have been posts along the lines of,"If I pay for it and it's not better than a hero then why should I pay for it," and "I paid money for this so you cannot nerf it."
What's the logic here? If I make for example, Wind themed toon I should /in theory/ have the same chances as an ice user, a fire use, a kung-fu guy, a gun-slinger, a swordsman, a wizard or any other theme* but if I make a toon inspired by The Haunted Tank, SWAT Kats or whatever why should that toon supposed to be inherently inferior.
A Superman inspired toon doesn't get a free pass because he's supposed to be invincible so why does a Tank girl inspired one have to be a second class citizen?
Nope, if you make an Whatever themed TOON it should not be inherently inferior or a second class citizen. Vehicles are NOT toons.
Now granted they have to err on the side of caution to keep the vehicles from being Pay to Win since there's no free ones, aside from the Tsunami which is rare enough we can probably ignore it, but dose that mean they have to be Pay to Lose?
Ok, don't get me wrong on this one since I don't want to sound like P2Lose should be a thing BUT the original requests and the majority of uses from people I know in regards to vehicles was P2Speed, P2Theme, and P2Accessorize. One of the reasons people went up in arms over the Prototypes having their speed nerfed was they kinda bought them for that speed.
Also for the record people mostly wanted vehicles as a TP not the glorified become devices they are, but I got a theory on that. You wouldn't be able to attack from a vehicle, the animations just wouldn't work for a lot of powers, particularly melee ones the devs even mentioned that as being an issue in the past. (though the image of how someone would do Inexorable Tides from a car would probably be hilarious :biggrin: ) Bat Flight and Skull Flight (or whatever it's called, I forget exactly) are TPs that you can't attack from, and what happened when they came out? Complaint after complaint, after complaint I kinda imagine that was what made them decide to go with the current route.
This is not a bad theory. I always wondered why there weren't vehicles(like a motorcycle) where top half animations would work or why the Chariots cannot perform like the hover disks. I know the reason we don't have ground vehicles yet but there are alot of theories on why X couldn't be done and such. Personally, I'm going to call it the difference between night(Cryptic) and day(Cryptic North) and hope I turn out to be right. :biggrin:
For the sake of being on-topic could you maybe think about making the vehicle's a bit bigger, people that liked the Mammoth seemed to like it at least partially because it actuality looked big enough to be a functional vehicle as opposed to the Tanks which tend to look more like a flying dune buggy with a gun on it rather than a..well...tank
I have a few points on this.
1. Please don't do this. Some vehicles, especially the new Mammoth Line, are pretty huge. Also, they're not hover tanks. They're shuttles. Could someone maybe strap a few cannons on the top of these things?
2. If we're heading down the "bigger is better" road could someone set the code so that player hitboxes do not change size when the toon changes shape/size? This would include Magnifiers, Shrinkers, Vehicles, Becomes, and other such things.
2b. Could someone also remove the hitboxes from wings and tails entirely?
2c. Could someone cut the hitbox size on all pets ingame by roughly 25-50%?
Also, run around the game for a while. Scale is kinda off in the majority of it.
For verity, vehicles should be "different" not "more powerful" idealy I'ld like to for example, have a fragile Soldier AT toon hop in a tank and become more...um "tanky" trading some of his higher DPS for toughness, or a melee toon use a hawkwing or bike to get some ranged attacks and they already are basically a third TP particularly for toons that lack a flight power. Also some people would of course get them for the "ooo... shiny" factor, that's the only reason I have any, in my experience they're weak, pathetically weak really but I'm probaly doing something wrong, so I don't use them in actual combat, though I DO have some fun tormenting low end mobs with heavy cannon and tractor beam :biggrin:
Ok, this is gonna be touchy so please please do not take this as any kind of insult because that is not my intention. I see where you're coming from on the utility. Actually I like the comparison with the soldier(which is why I would like vehicles to be somewhere between ATs and FFs). The touchy bit isn't so much what the average player can do with the vehicles. It's what the above average player can do with vehicles and when that knowledge spreads like wildfire. I recall hearing about the whole plasma beam BH thing within hours of the Rampage Review LI going live. I happen to have a Fire Ant which comes with this particular attack so I did some PQ with friends to test it and then reported on the results. I had also done a few PUGs before the PQs got rolling with various toons. The next day I did a few PUGs because I was on when most of my friends were not and everyone and their cousin was packing this thing. I'm not saying it would have been fine had only a handful of people figured it out and basically "exploit horded." I'm saying it was broken and when the news finally hit it spread like wildfire. As for where I'm going with this...look at Kaiserin's videos. I've personally ran extensive tests, as well as helping out others with their tests(I stood in the Ren Center this morning for about an hour and a half letting some people shoot my toon all over the place to see how things worked out). I've taken out MK1 Stock Vehicles and basically facerolled the countryside with them. Sure, they don't all perform on the same level but it's my opinion that on this issue balance is somewhere in the middle. The low and high should meet there.
The average tricked out vehicle has generally cost anywhere between 7000-10000 globals to assemble. The vehicle mod packs have reduced this cost slightly, but at a 1-1 zen/global conversion rate, there are any number of players who have invested far more in vehicles to this point than they have in freeform slots or subs.
Now we might not have the same definition of 'tricked out." I, as previously stated, have a Fire Ant with plasma beam(came with it), IR2(came with it), Quick Reload(Questionite so it was free to me...I have tons of this stuff sitting around), and some R6 Mods(this is likely as high as I will go). The mods cost me nothing because I've been piling that junk up in 2 SG Vault pages since they were introduced..."just in case." I basically bartered to get the Fire Ant in the 1st place so it cost me, ballparkish, 110kQ(again...tons of the stuff). So, while I might not be the "ideal candidate" I all but got mine for free and had it tricked out in like 5m.
Now as for my sub investment....Gold since September 4th 2009. Also, I'm not really keen on the whole global/zen conversion rate. In my world there is no such thing because they both really boil down to luck,time, and dime. Since I rarely have any luck and I'm not interested enough to spend on this....I go with time. As for the whale customers. I buy what the toons need when they need them. I don't go super overboard(ok, I probably do), but I do own every single costume set in the game except the 5k reward ones and those ugly ugly ugly emblem kits.
As for point 2. I saw it as telling people who liked the cosmetic look of vehicle A over vehicle B for theme reasons they could shell out upgrade and not use an inferior vehicle. On the flipside someone with a premium vehicle could not shell out and still remain pretty powerful.
Point 3: Somewhat higher def. Ok. Able to laugh in the face of a giant radiation breathing dinosaur with very little effort...yeah, not so much.
Gradii: Yes we need smarter AI. Will this happen before this pass is complete? Nope. All I can really say on the matter is better luck next go round. Sorry. <shrugs>
And this is where there's a major problem for Cryptic in dealing with the remaining few CO whale customers, because this is incorrect.
Point 1:
The average tricked out vehicle has generally cost anywhere between 7000-10000 globals to assemble. The vehicle mod packs have reduced this cost slightly (along with incin prices going down with the fire ant), but at a 1-1 zen/global conversion rate, there are any number of players who have invested far more in vehicles to this point than they have in freeform slots or subs.
Except...just like FF slots, people have bought multiple vehicles and outfitted them. And that, in turn, tends to require actual zen purchases for multiple hundreds of dollars.
Point 2:
What is particularly galling about the Mark II program - and what has not been brought up yet - is that you are now telling people who paid substantial premiums for 8 slot vehicles (especially the specialty lockbox ones) that their premium is worthless, because anybody who has bought a cheap, low end vehicle can now get the EXACT same amount of slots that you paid dearly for - at a much cheaper price.
There can and should be compensation for those players who paid up for 8 slotters.
I am always impressed by people's ability to over inflate an in game currency that has no value, no matter how they try to justify the value of said dead currency.
No, they don't owe you compensation for something they never promised would be the permanent top dog. Or do you think the video card company that made your video card in your PC owes you compensation because they came out with a new video card that makes your's look pathetic and thus marked your particular card type down in price now after you already bought it?
There are issues, but it seems that most of them come down to lack of resources. I do not think there's any agenda to specifically release OP stuff, make $$, then nerf it.
It's simply a question of coming out with stuff that's OP and not having the time to properly balance it. If they were to put in the time then they would have to come out with even less stuff.
They've already surpassed my expectations regarding the rampage release - I'm pretty impressed actually. I'm having lots of fun playing this game. Sorry.
Unlike players, vehicles do not have any major self healing available besides a single, long (30 second) recharge heal that provides a 40% or 80% HOT, and also requires the vehicle to stay still and in the field generated. It also reduces the slots available for any other items, not an insubstantial loss.
Thus, toughness should be substantially higher than players. I have no problem with either HPs or shielding being somewhat more effective than on players, since the options available to vehicles to stay alive are far lower.
You are forgetting the existence of mods that grant passive health regeneration. They are quite good.
You can also slot multiple ranks of Medic Drone. While it takes up slots, it's an option if you want more health in. You also forgot Mk3 Medic Drone which is 120%. Having two powers that can boop your health to full/near full is not bad.
There's also the regeneration ray, as the limited power spots does suggest that vehicles were meant to work as a team and fulfill roles.
Vehicles already have substantially higher damage reduction than most players. To give some comparison Invulnerability gives about 45% reduction, and Defiance (at 18% a stack) about 52%. Vehicles don't need have vastly higher health on top of respectable damage reduction.
Actually, if anything, the particularly pathetic dribble healing of the regen ray rather counters the idea of a vehicle team, as there are no effective support vehicle builds outside the prototype command ship. Attempting to maintain health with a 'weapon' that is 1/8th the strength of an average healer will get the target - vehicle, player, NPC - killed, and quite likely the nominal support vehicle as well.
I suspect that a designer at Cryptic may have once theoretically intended vehicles to act in teams, but it's pretty clear that concept got ignored in implementation. Regen ray is one of a number of mods that is in bad need of an upgrade, and in general there's plenty of room for improvement for all support vehicle mods.
Vehicles already have substantially higher damage reduction than most players.
The lack of active defenses means this isn't the case either, as the capability of a vehicle to resist spike damage is essentially nil and thus the averaged out DR ends up lower, not higher.
Vehicles are basically DPSers, and fixing balance issues with a DPSer is pretty simple. So far, the proposed "Vehicles 2.0" doesn't accomplish this.
There are obviously players who enjoy them enough to shell out real $$ for them. I also predict the balancing and enhancements we are seeing are going to make them even more popular.
The devs has smartly made the decision that making sweeping decisions, based on forum feedback is a foolish and money-losing practice. I'm far from a huge vehicle fan, but I do see how they've recently re-invigorated the game.
If it keeps the money rolling in and the game open for us all, I'm for it.
if the devs think that ignoring the playerbase is a good idea they are in for a shock.
Is that so? Take a number, get in line, and shut up with all this nonsense. Ignoring the player base is a feature for CO that seems to be breaking now.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
Nope, didn't forget. That's why I specifically mentioned 'major', and I'm not sure anyone would consider Nanite Booster as 'quite good'.
200ish HPS is not bad when you're backed up by that much damage reduction.
Bountiful Chi Resurgence (assuming you're in hybrid) gives 125 hps at rank3. This can be boosted a bit if you're running a dodge build, but BCR isn't regarded as a bad healing power.
Necrullitic Elixir, a much coveted device amongst players, gives 200 hps.
I posted up videos for a reason. Reposting this one as it shows a Widow waddling through the Vibora Bay Graveyard, which is not something a lot of player characters can do and last long, with just the regeneration mods and using the Medic Drone once.
Actually, if anything, the particularly pathetic dribble healing of the regen ray rather counters the idea of a vehicle team, as there are no effective support vehicle builds outside the prototype command ship. Attempting to maintain health with a 'weapon' that is 1/8th the strength of an average healer will get the target - vehicle, player, NPC - killed, and quite likely the nominal support vehicle as well.
Looking at Mk3 backed up by some +healing power mods and it's showing as 423 health every .5 seconds. That's not out of line with the majority of player heals.
I will say that Iniquity blows it away, but Iniquity has been trivializing all other ally heals since its creation.
The lack of active defenses means this isn't the case either, as the capability of a vehicle to resist spike damage is essentially nil and thus the averaged out DR ends up lower, not higher.
Hyperkinetic Dampening Field? Why are people glazing over this obscene ability? Teleiosaurus's breath is one of the hardest hitting abilities in game, and I think I proved my point this with HDF you can pretend it's not there with the 'squishy' vehicle. That is far superior to player active defenses because of its lengthy duration, negligible cost (even with no mods running you won't cripple yourself running it), and permanent availability.
I take this quote from a review that I agree with.
"customisation is so linear; everyone is after the optimal dps:survivability ratio with 0 reliance on other players = autonomous gameplay... Players don't need each other anymore... which in my opinion is a bad thing."
I am always impressed by people's ability to over inflate an in game currency that has no value, no matter how they try to justify the value of said dead currency.
No, they don't owe you compensation for something they never promised would be the permanent top dog. Or do you think the video card company that made your video card in your PC owes you compensation because they came out with a new video card that makes your's look pathetic and thus marked your particular card type down in price now after you already bought it?
This is a silly comparison for a lot of reasons:
1.) The video card company can't push a button to make your old video card performance worse as they introduce the new model.
2.) You own your video card. You can sell it to someone else for actual currency.
3.) You know before-hand what you're buying and exactly what it costs (i.e. it's not obfuscated by a RNG and layers of game currencies.)
No, Cryptic doesn't "owe" in the legal sense anything for past microcommerce transactions. But that doesn't mean that there aren't a range of ways these situations can be handled in consideration of ethical practices and customer goodwill.
LTS since 2009. Author of ACT parser module for CO. Founder of Rampagers. Resident curmudgeon.
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
This is a silly comparison for a lot of reasons:
1.) The video card company can't push a button to make your old video card performance worse as they introduce the new model.
2.) You own your video card. You can sell it to someone else for actual currency.
3.) You know before-hand what you're buying and exactly what it costs (i.e. it's not obfuscated by a RNG and layers of game currencies.)
No, Cryptic doesn't "owe" in the legal sense anything for past microcommerce transactions. But that doesn't mean that there aren't a range of ways these situations can be handled in consideration of ethical practices and customer goodwill.
These excuses are silly because the video card company also tweaks your video card and can and have at any moment discontinue a feature on it, considering many of the features of my old video card such as physx and dx11 were deactivated on it. You can also sell your video card but at a substantial loss compared to what you may have paid for it. I can also sell the stuff on my vehicle, usually for quite a bit more than I actually paid for it if I cared since the weapons and mods don't bind. And really, you aren't buying the weapons you are buying the vehicle, if you are going to argue the real money route.
Really it was an apt comparison. I know exactly what I am buying to because I go to an auction house in game. So again, your argument falls apart before you even get out of the gate.
These excuses are silly because the video card company also tweaks your video card and can and have at any moment discontinue a feature on it, considering many of the features of my old video card such as physx and dx11 were deactivated on it. You can also sell your video card but at a substantial loss compared to what you may have paid for it. I can also sell the stuff on my vehicle, usually for quite a bit more than I actually paid for it if I cared since the weapons and mods don't bind. And really, you aren't buying the weapons you are buying the vehicle, if you are going to argue the real money route.
Really it was an apt comparison. I know exactly what I am buying to because I go to an auction house in game. So again, your argument falls apart before you even get out of the gate.
Give me some real-world examples of when a video card manufacturer substantially "nerfed" a video card after it was in the consumers hands.
Tell me how you sell an in-game vehicle back for USD or other real-world currency.
I was referring to a primary microcommerce transaction via lockbox, not an in-game AH acquisition.
LTS since 2009. Author of ACT parser module for CO. Founder of Rampagers. Resident curmudgeon.
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
Give me some real-world examples of when a video card manufacturer substantially "nerfed" a video card after it was in the consumers hands.
Tell me how you sell an in-game vehicle back for USD or other real-world currency.
I was referring to a primary microcommerce transaction via lockbox, not an in-game AH acquisition.
I already did. A company that discontinues a particular application to a card means they stopped supporting it and no longer plan on doing more than basic updates to it, if even that. Companies can and do this quite regularly. If you think it's an isolated incident you are silly. Like how my old video cards SLi support was also disabled.
Furthermore you don't buy the lockboxes for the parts you buy the lockbox for the vehicle itself. You can pull the weapons out of said vehicle and sell them on the auction house or other methods in game with no issue.
I am sorry you think that the weapons are the selling points they are bonus features that change regularly, even in cars, as standards change. If you are trying to say you bought and paid for the weapons then that is your kettle of fish that you must deal with. Saying that it's unfair, maybe, but life isn't fair and video game balance is required whether you like it or not. I am sorry your safety button might require you to risk something now, but considering the game needs a life line for its continued health arguing that you can't freely shoot things out of their respective ranges of attack is not a compelling argument. They are being brought in line, just like any video card that is overclocked so far that it would cause a burn out.
I already did. A company that discontinues a particular application to a card means they stopped supporting it and no longer plan on doing more than basic updates to it, if even that. Companies can and do this quite regularly. If you think it's an isolated incident you are silly. Like how my old video cards SLi support was also disabled.
I'm not seeing any references to a specific example of a video card's performance being substantially diminished by the manufacturer after it's in the consumers hands. Can you post a link? If you mean they stopped doing driver updates after a period of time, that's not at all comparable.
So you agree now that you can't sell an in-game vehicle back for real-world currency?
Do you still think video card obsolescence is a good comparison to in-game vehicles/weapons/whatever?
LTS since 2009. Author of ACT parser module for CO. Founder of Rampagers. Resident curmudgeon.
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
I'm not seeing any references to a specific example of a video card's performance being substantially diminished by the manufacturer after it's in the consumers hands. Can you post a link? If you mean they stopped doing driver updates after a period of time, that's not at all comparable.
So you agree now that you can't sell an in-game vehicle back for real-world currency?
Do you still think video card obsolescence is a good comparison to in-game vehicles/weapons/whatever?
Wow you're trying to twist words... you are arguing vehicles when you been arguing weapons. Make up your mind. Or can you because you know you don't have ground under you? And yes, driver updates after a time is comparable to this exact situation.
Also since your argument hinges on the belief that they made a promise nothing would ever change, why don't you produce that as well. And do try to keep to one thing. Your argument was about the weapons themselves, not the vehicles because the vehicles don't matter in this argument. And if you are going to argue about the speed tone down because the servers can't handle it, then your apt comparison there is a vehicle recall. But since you aren't losing the vehicle then what do you need compensation for?
Wow you're trying to twist words... you are arguing vehicles when you been arguing weapons. Make up your mind. Or can you because you know you don't have ground under you? And yes, driver updates after a time is comparable to this exact situation.
Eh? The only thing I'm arguing about is your comparison of virtual item microcommerce transactions to video card obsolence, and it really doesn't matter if it's in-game vehicles or weapons. I'd love to hear how you think one is different from the other in terms of this comparison though.
Do you really need me to explain how no longer providing new updates to drivers (that you optionally install) differs from substantially and unavoidably reducing a consumer's video card performance as you roll out a new video card?
Also since your argument hinges on the belief that they made a promise nothing would ever change, why don't you produce that as well. And do try to keep to one thing. Your argument was about the weapons themselves, not the vehicles because the vehicles don't matter in this argument. And if you are going to argue about the speed tone down because the servers can't handle it, then your apt comparison there is a vehicle recall. But since you aren't losing the vehicle then what do you need compensation for?
Uh, what? When did I say anything about promises nothing would ever change, or even vehicles vs. weapons? Are we reading the same thread? Maybe you should spend a little more time on your responses to try to make them a little more coherent.
LTS since 2009. Author of ACT parser module for CO. Founder of Rampagers. Resident curmudgeon.
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
So making it so a power no longer makes something not be able to hit you or do anything technically allowing people to AFK farm easily now makes it unusable?
BUG: Crit chance/severity mods are adjusting the %s on the character sheet only, they're not working on the guns at all. I've tested just about everything with it, and it's not working.
BUG: Wings still flap when you're riding on the bikes.
BUG: Flashbang doesn't appear to properly stack.
Not a bug, but an incredible annoyance: Status effects on the Harbinger, IE: Neg ions, clinging flames, chill. Cause MASSIVE FPS drop, as well as blinding effects. Can these please be disabled on titanic creatures?
Comments
First, some bugs that you introduced, along with a few of the 'features'.
Bug: Biosteel endurance regen is now being double counted.
Bug: Damage reduction penetration takes off X percentage of the damage reduction, rather than the actual percentage.
Bug: Mods continue to vary in placement on the tool bar randomly.
'Feature': The vehicle shop does not display any information regarding the vehicles or mods available. It is a showroom without stickers. Want Attack/Def/Speed info? You're out of luck. Want slot information? Out of luck. Want mod information on what actual base damage is, or base energy use, or what a mod actually does - like a description of any skill available via right click dragging? Out of luck. Probably not the best way to convince someone to spend multiple thousands of zen on something.
'Feature': Mark II vehicles provide almost no benefit versus Mark I.
Example tested: Fully modded Desert Fox that I had sitting around in my PTS inventory.
Mark I:
Base HP: 13290 Base Energy: 100
Att 3.5/Def 4.5/Speed 2
5000 damage for railgun. 800 damage for incin. (Using roughly 40% damage increase mods.)
Mark II:
Base HP: 18416 Base Energy: 100
Att 4.5/Def 7.5/Speed 3
Except...as those of us who have tested vehicles repeatedly, the base numbers on Att/Def mean almost nothing when it comes to actual base damage - since that is determined almost entirely by the vehicle platform, and modified by def/support mods.
So this shouldn't be surprising:
5092 damage for rail gun. 814 damage for incin. (Using the same mods as on Mark I).
So basically, for the substantial amount of Zen you're requiring...you get a 1.8% increase in your damage. I could say more about it, but think this speaks for itself.
And this is where there's a major problem for Cryptic in dealing with the remaining few CO whale customers, because this is incorrect.
Point 1:
The average tricked out vehicle has generally cost anywhere between 7000-10000 globals to assemble. The vehicle mod packs have reduced this cost slightly (along with incin prices going down with the fire ant), but at a 1-1 zen/global conversion rate, there are any number of players who have invested far more in vehicles to this point than they have in freeform slots or subs.
Except...just like FF slots, people have bought multiple vehicles and outfitted them. And that, in turn, tends to require actual zen purchases for multiple hundreds of dollars.
Point 2:
What is particularly galling about the Mark II program - and what has not been brought up yet - is that you are now telling people who paid substantial premiums for 8 slot vehicles (especially the specialty lockbox ones) that their premium is worthless, because anybody who has bought a cheap, low end vehicle can now get the EXACT same amount of slots that you paid dearly for - at a much cheaper price.
There can and should be compensation for those players who paid up for 8 slotters.
Just to be clear, its ok for a power to work in a manner that trivializes or even breaks most encounters in the game so long as there is one foe in the entire game that it does not break ?
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Even I understood her point. What she's saying is fix the AI, because its clearly shown in game that the AI can handle it when programmed to.
Unlike players, vehicles do not have any major self healing available besides a single, long (30 second) recharge heal that provides a 40% or 80% HOT, and also requires the vehicle to stay still and in the field generated. It also reduces the slots available for any other items, not an insubstantial loss.
Thus, toughness should be substantially higher than players. I have no problem with either HPs or shielding being somewhat more effective than on players, since the options available to vehicles to stay alive are far lower.
(emphasis added)
The issue is not the HK shield energy consumption - which is fine where it is - and never has been. Nor is the issue DPS or 120' range or multiple targets or cooldowns, where the massive changes will produce equally massive unintended consequences at best.
The underlying issue has always been for a certain -few- vehicle mods that the DPES has been badly out of whack since they were introduced. As in, you shouldn't be able to do 50k damage to multiple targets with only a tiny tick down of your energy bar, which a handful of vehicle mods (aka the 'decent weapon rotation') provide.
Unfortunately none of the 'fixes' proposed do a thing about this. I may put together a longer thread on this subject with some better ideas on how to balance vehicles than have been presented so far.
There have been posts along the lines of,"If I pay for it and it's not better than a hero then why should I pay for it," and "I paid money for this so you cannot nerf it."
Nope, if you make an Whatever themed TOON it should not be inherently inferior or a second class citizen. Vehicles are NOT toons.
Ok, don't get me wrong on this one since I don't want to sound like P2Lose should be a thing BUT the original requests and the majority of uses from people I know in regards to vehicles was P2Speed, P2Theme, and P2Accessorize. One of the reasons people went up in arms over the Prototypes having their speed nerfed was they kinda bought them for that speed.
This is not a bad theory. I always wondered why there weren't vehicles(like a motorcycle) where top half animations would work or why the Chariots cannot perform like the hover disks. I know the reason we don't have ground vehicles yet but there are alot of theories on why X couldn't be done and such. Personally, I'm going to call it the difference between night(Cryptic) and day(Cryptic North) and hope I turn out to be right. :biggrin:
I have a few points on this.
1. Please don't do this. Some vehicles, especially the new Mammoth Line, are pretty huge. Also, they're not hover tanks. They're shuttles. Could someone maybe strap a few cannons on the top of these things?
2. If we're heading down the "bigger is better" road could someone set the code so that player hitboxes do not change size when the toon changes shape/size? This would include Magnifiers, Shrinkers, Vehicles, Becomes, and other such things.
2b. Could someone also remove the hitboxes from wings and tails entirely?
2c. Could someone cut the hitbox size on all pets ingame by roughly 25-50%?
Also, run around the game for a while. Scale is kinda off in the majority of it.
Ok, this is gonna be touchy so please please do not take this as any kind of insult because that is not my intention. I see where you're coming from on the utility. Actually I like the comparison with the soldier(which is why I would like vehicles to be somewhere between ATs and FFs). The touchy bit isn't so much what the average player can do with the vehicles. It's what the above average player can do with vehicles and when that knowledge spreads like wildfire. I recall hearing about the whole plasma beam BH thing within hours of the Rampage Review LI going live. I happen to have a Fire Ant which comes with this particular attack so I did some PQ with friends to test it and then reported on the results. I had also done a few PUGs before the PQs got rolling with various toons. The next day I did a few PUGs because I was on when most of my friends were not and everyone and their cousin was packing this thing. I'm not saying it would have been fine had only a handful of people figured it out and basically "exploit horded." I'm saying it was broken and when the news finally hit it spread like wildfire. As for where I'm going with this...look at Kaiserin's videos. I've personally ran extensive tests, as well as helping out others with their tests(I stood in the Ren Center this morning for about an hour and a half letting some people shoot my toon all over the place to see how things worked out). I've taken out MK1 Stock Vehicles and basically facerolled the countryside with them. Sure, they don't all perform on the same level but it's my opinion that on this issue balance is somewhere in the middle. The low and high should meet there.
Now we might not have the same definition of 'tricked out." I, as previously stated, have a Fire Ant with plasma beam(came with it), IR2(came with it), Quick Reload(Questionite so it was free to me...I have tons of this stuff sitting around), and some R6 Mods(this is likely as high as I will go). The mods cost me nothing because I've been piling that junk up in 2 SG Vault pages since they were introduced..."just in case." I basically bartered to get the Fire Ant in the 1st place so it cost me, ballparkish, 110kQ(again...tons of the stuff). So, while I might not be the "ideal candidate" I all but got mine for free and had it tricked out in like 5m.
Now as for my sub investment....Gold since September 4th 2009. Also, I'm not really keen on the whole global/zen conversion rate. In my world there is no such thing because they both really boil down to luck,time, and dime. Since I rarely have any luck and I'm not interested enough to spend on this....I go with time. As for the whale customers. I buy what the toons need when they need them. I don't go super overboard(ok, I probably do), but I do own every single costume set in the game except the 5k reward ones and those ugly ugly ugly emblem kits.
As for point 2. I saw it as telling people who liked the cosmetic look of vehicle A over vehicle B for theme reasons they could shell out upgrade and not use an inferior vehicle. On the flipside someone with a premium vehicle could not shell out and still remain pretty powerful.
Point 3: Somewhat higher def. Ok. Able to laugh in the face of a giant radiation breathing dinosaur with very little effort...yeah, not so much.
Gradii: Yes we need smarter AI. Will this happen before this pass is complete? Nope. All I can really say on the matter is better luck next go round. Sorry. <shrugs>
Join Date: Aug 2009 | Title: Devslayer
I am always impressed by people's ability to over inflate an in game currency that has no value, no matter how they try to justify the value of said dead currency.
No, they don't owe you compensation for something they never promised would be the permanent top dog. Or do you think the video card company that made your video card in your PC owes you compensation because they came out with a new video card that makes your's look pathetic and thus marked your particular card type down in price now after you already bought it?
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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It's simply a question of coming out with stuff that's OP and not having the time to properly balance it. If they were to put in the time then they would have to come out with even less stuff.
They've already surpassed my expectations regarding the rampage release - I'm pretty impressed actually. I'm having lots of fun playing this game. Sorry.
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You are forgetting the existence of mods that grant passive health regeneration. They are quite good.
You can also slot multiple ranks of Medic Drone. While it takes up slots, it's an option if you want more health in. You also forgot Mk3 Medic Drone which is 120%. Having two powers that can boop your health to full/near full is not bad.
There's also the regeneration ray, as the limited power spots does suggest that vehicles were meant to work as a team and fulfill roles.
Vehicles already have substantially higher damage reduction than most players. To give some comparison Invulnerability gives about 45% reduction, and Defiance (at 18% a stack) about 52%. Vehicles don't need have vastly higher health on top of respectable damage reduction.
Nope, didn't forget. That's why I specifically mentioned 'major', and I'm not sure anyone would consider Nanite Booster as 'quite good'.
...which would go back to my point about losing slots.
Actually, if anything, the particularly pathetic dribble healing of the regen ray rather counters the idea of a vehicle team, as there are no effective support vehicle builds outside the prototype command ship. Attempting to maintain health with a 'weapon' that is 1/8th the strength of an average healer will get the target - vehicle, player, NPC - killed, and quite likely the nominal support vehicle as well.
I suspect that a designer at Cryptic may have once theoretically intended vehicles to act in teams, but it's pretty clear that concept got ignored in implementation. Regen ray is one of a number of mods that is in bad need of an upgrade, and in general there's plenty of room for improvement for all support vehicle mods.
The lack of active defenses means this isn't the case either, as the capability of a vehicle to resist spike damage is essentially nil and thus the averaged out DR ends up lower, not higher.
Vehicles are basically DPSers, and fixing balance issues with a DPSer is pretty simple. So far, the proposed "Vehicles 2.0" doesn't accomplish this.
Vehicles aren't going anywhere.
There are obviously players who enjoy them enough to shell out real $$ for them. I also predict the balancing and enhancements we are seeing are going to make them even more popular.
The devs has smartly made the decision that making sweeping decisions, based on forum feedback is a foolish and money-losing practice. I'm far from a huge vehicle fan, but I do see how they've recently re-invigorated the game.
If it keeps the money rolling in and the game open for us all, I'm for it.
Is that so? Take a number, get in line, and shut up with all this nonsense. Ignoring the player base is a feature for CO that seems to be breaking now.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
200ish HPS is not bad when you're backed up by that much damage reduction.
Bountiful Chi Resurgence (assuming you're in hybrid) gives 125 hps at rank3. This can be boosted a bit if you're running a dodge build, but BCR isn't regarded as a bad healing power.
Necrullitic Elixir, a much coveted device amongst players, gives 200 hps.
I posted up videos for a reason. Reposting this one as it shows a Widow waddling through the Vibora Bay Graveyard, which is not something a lot of player characters can do and last long, with just the regeneration mods and using the Medic Drone once.
If you want survivability, you're going to have to give up a little. Spending half of your tray isn't a crazy investment.
Looking at Mk3 backed up by some +healing power mods and it's showing as 423 health every .5 seconds. That's not out of line with the majority of player heals.
I will say that Iniquity blows it away, but Iniquity has been trivializing all other ally heals since its creation.
Hyperkinetic Dampening Field? Why are people glazing over this obscene ability? Teleiosaurus's breath is one of the hardest hitting abilities in game, and I think I proved my point this with HDF you can pretend it's not there with the 'squishy' vehicle. That is far superior to player active defenses because of its lengthy duration, negligible cost (even with no mods running you won't cripple yourself running it), and permanent availability.
Power, Public Image/Vanity, Pleasure?
I take this quote from a review that I agree with.
"customisation is so linear; everyone is after the optimal dps:survivability ratio with 0 reliance on other players = autonomous gameplay... Players don't need each other anymore... which in my opinion is a bad thing."
This is a silly comparison for a lot of reasons:
1.) The video card company can't push a button to make your old video card performance worse as they introduce the new model.
2.) You own your video card. You can sell it to someone else for actual currency.
3.) You know before-hand what you're buying and exactly what it costs (i.e. it's not obfuscated by a RNG and layers of game currencies.)
No, Cryptic doesn't "owe" in the legal sense anything for past microcommerce transactions. But that doesn't mean that there aren't a range of ways these situations can be handled in consideration of ethical practices and customer goodwill.
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
These excuses are silly because the video card company also tweaks your video card and can and have at any moment discontinue a feature on it, considering many of the features of my old video card such as physx and dx11 were deactivated on it. You can also sell your video card but at a substantial loss compared to what you may have paid for it. I can also sell the stuff on my vehicle, usually for quite a bit more than I actually paid for it if I cared since the weapons and mods don't bind. And really, you aren't buying the weapons you are buying the vehicle, if you are going to argue the real money route.
Really it was an apt comparison. I know exactly what I am buying to because I go to an auction house in game. So again, your argument falls apart before you even get out of the gate.
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Give me some real-world examples of when a video card manufacturer substantially "nerfed" a video card after it was in the consumers hands.
Tell me how you sell an in-game vehicle back for USD or other real-world currency.
I was referring to a primary microcommerce transaction via lockbox, not an in-game AH acquisition.
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
I already did. A company that discontinues a particular application to a card means they stopped supporting it and no longer plan on doing more than basic updates to it, if even that. Companies can and do this quite regularly. If you think it's an isolated incident you are silly. Like how my old video cards SLi support was also disabled.
Furthermore you don't buy the lockboxes for the parts you buy the lockbox for the vehicle itself. You can pull the weapons out of said vehicle and sell them on the auction house or other methods in game with no issue.
I am sorry you think that the weapons are the selling points they are bonus features that change regularly, even in cars, as standards change. If you are trying to say you bought and paid for the weapons then that is your kettle of fish that you must deal with. Saying that it's unfair, maybe, but life isn't fair and video game balance is required whether you like it or not. I am sorry your safety button might require you to risk something now, but considering the game needs a life line for its continued health arguing that you can't freely shoot things out of their respective ranges of attack is not a compelling argument. They are being brought in line, just like any video card that is overclocked so far that it would cause a burn out.
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I'm not seeing any references to a specific example of a video card's performance being substantially diminished by the manufacturer after it's in the consumers hands. Can you post a link? If you mean they stopped doing driver updates after a period of time, that's not at all comparable.
So you agree now that you can't sell an in-game vehicle back for real-world currency?
Do you still think video card obsolescence is a good comparison to in-game vehicles/weapons/whatever?
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
Wow you're trying to twist words... you are arguing vehicles when you been arguing weapons. Make up your mind. Or can you because you know you don't have ground under you? And yes, driver updates after a time is comparable to this exact situation.
Also since your argument hinges on the belief that they made a promise nothing would ever change, why don't you produce that as well. And do try to keep to one thing. Your argument was about the weapons themselves, not the vehicles because the vehicles don't matter in this argument. And if you are going to argue about the speed tone down because the servers can't handle it, then your apt comparison there is a vehicle recall. But since you aren't losing the vehicle then what do you need compensation for?
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Eh? The only thing I'm arguing about is your comparison of virtual item microcommerce transactions to video card obsolence, and it really doesn't matter if it's in-game vehicles or weapons. I'd love to hear how you think one is different from the other in terms of this comparison though.
Do you really need me to explain how no longer providing new updates to drivers (that you optionally install) differs from substantially and unavoidably reducing a consumer's video card performance as you roll out a new video card?
Uh, what? When did I say anything about promises nothing would ever change, or even vehicles vs. weapons? Are we reading the same thread? Maybe you should spend a little more time on your responses to try to make them a little more coherent.
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
Seems legit.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
BUG: Wings still flap when you're riding on the bikes.
BUG: Flashbang doesn't appear to properly stack.
Not a bug, but an incredible annoyance: Status effects on the Harbinger, IE: Neg ions, clinging flames, chill. Cause MASSIVE FPS drop, as well as blinding effects. Can these please be disabled on titanic creatures?
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