The thing that annoys me most about this all, is that there are groups of people now who only want you on their team if you have a vehicle with PB and GP.
The thing that annoys me most about this all, is that there are groups of people now who only want you on their team if you have a vehicle with PB and GP.
Yep, after a day, this became the standard PQ team. Vehicles with PB and/or GP.
Alas.
The reason why only few vehicle powers are in demand is because all the rest are weak. If there was some kind of consistency between all weapon mods, things would be different.
I didn't have any of the elitism in the other Rampages, just with Lemurian Invasion today. And I don't think we'll see this same level of elitism in the other alerts because the other Rampages aren't so blatantly abused by a specific combination like Lemurian Invasion is.
F&I would generally look for healers, tanks, and damage dealers, but not specific powers. Many toons can fill those roles.
I will say, though, I ran private queues with no "must have" statements. They went fine, though it actually took several minutes to defeat the Bleak Harbinger.
I noticed it's performance with 75-100 stacks, I think thats a good cap for it.
I have to agree. 100 stacks is enough to do the intended job, without turning the entire Rampage into something that can finished in 5-minutes if you have full vehicle team. I wouldn't be surprise if this weren't implemented.
And why exactly LI is not to be finished under 5 minutes with full vehicle team?
It's not like Harbinger is a complicated fight anyway, no matter how hard he hits, how many HP he has and how long it takes to kill him. He is, and will remain, a big, stationary tank and spank target.
Making the fight longer will not change anything except for it being longer for the sake of being longer. It's not even a difficulty raise.
Something needs to be done about Alert Bosses, they're getting Steamrolled faster lately (Old Smash, New Grabs)like Vehicles in Lemurian Invasion, make them more interesting to fight then HP Sacks to kick... Maybe bump them up to Elite (Tough?) x3
PS, Pets don't work in Fire & Ice & Using Crowd Control makes them move. O.-.o
I take this quote from a review that I agree with.
"customisation is so linear; everyone is after the optimal dps:survivability ratio with 0 reliance on other players = autonomous gameplay... Players don't need each other anymore... which in my opinion is a bad thing."
And why exactly LI is not to be finished under 5 minutes with full vehicle team?
It's not like Harbinger is a complicated fight anyway, no matter how hard he hits, how many HP he has and how long it takes to kill him. He is, and will remain, a big, stationary tank and spank target.
Making the fight longer will not change anything except for it being longer for the sake of being longer. It's not even a difficulty raise.
The "problem" is that one vehicle weapon outperforms other options by such a huge margin. I have never seen anyone ask for a "defiance/haymaker tank", or a "TGM/quarry dps", or a "iniquity/AoRP healer" for any content. Even though those make for some of the best builds for those roles, they aren't outperforming other options as much as PB does, and to perform at their peak efficiency don't require a full team of similar builds.
If it is decided that harbinger is meant to be killed in less than a minute that would be fine (or not), but that should then be possible for more diverse team setups.
And why exactly LI is not to be finished under 5 minutes with full vehicle team?
It's not like Harbinger is a complicated fight anyway, no matter how hard he hits, how many HP he has and how long it takes to kill him. He is, and will remain, a big, stationary tank and spank target.
Making the fight longer will not change anything except for it being longer for the sake of being longer. It's not even a difficulty raise.
I agree with this. Although I appreciate the effort that went into creating this alert; the cut scenes are well done and the Bleak Harbinger looks awesome; after the first couple of times it's a boring encounter. It's impossible to fail, there's not really any challenge other than trying to see how fast you can do it. I think nerfing vehicles just to make the alert longer (and more boring) would be a mistake.
LTS since 2009. Author of ACT parser module for CO. Founder of Rampagers. Resident curmudgeon.
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
The "problem" is that one vehicle weapon outperforms other options by such a huge margin. I have never seen anyone ask for a "defiance/haymaker tank", or a "TGM/quarry dps", or a "iniquity/AoRP healer" for any content. Even though those make for some of the best builds for those roles, they aren't outperforming other options as much as PB does, and to perform at their peak efficiency don't require a full team of similar builds.
If it is decided that harbinger is meant to be killed in less than a minute that would be fine (or not), but that should then be possible for more diverse team setups.
This does not have anything to do with the fight then, by effect. This is a power balance issue with vehicles. This should be its own thread.
Something needs to be done about Alert Bosses, they're getting Steamrolled faster lately (Old Smash, New Grabs)like Vehicles in Lemurian Invasion, make them more interesting to fight then HP Sacks to kick... Maybe bump them up to Elite (Tough?) x3
PS, Pets don't work in Fire & Ice & Using Crowd Control makes them move. O.-.o
That's not more interesting, that's how to make a hp sack bigger =P
That's not more interesting, that's how to make a hp sack bigger =P
I don't know, Soft Enrage timer, Death Bear Hugs... Killer Cookies!? x3 Suppose up their Damage/attack rate (Like Gravitar) so they're more threatening then Punching Sack.
I take this quote from a review that I agree with.
"customisation is so linear; everyone is after the optimal dps:survivability ratio with 0 reliance on other players = autonomous gameplay... Players don't need each other anymore... which in my opinion is a bad thing."
This does not have anything to do with the fight then, by effect. This is a power balance issue with vehicles. This should be its own thread.
This is only really an issue with the lemurian alert. So it is fully tied to the rampage revamp, and fits in with the feedback to that revamp. And since people are still using the PTS threat for that...
As far as I am concerned the revamp is still part of PTS changes, since it are still actively being tweaked.
The "problem" is that one vehicle weapon outperforms other options by such a huge margin. I have never seen anyone ask for a "defiance/haymaker tank", or a "TGM/quarry dps", or a "iniquity/AoRP healer" for any content. Even though those make for some of the best builds for those roles, they aren't outperforming other options as much as PB does, and to perform at their peak efficiency don't require a full team of similar builds.
If it is decided that harbinger is meant to be killed in less than a minute that would be fine (or not), but that should then be possible for more diverse team setups.
That's precisely problem with some vehicle weapons being just crappy.
Aside of Harbinger, Plasma Beam isn't that good. It has some use with open world bosses, though. But aside of boss fights? This weapon has a very arrow utility.
Pretty much the same with Grav Pulse. Good for clearing trash or farming, but of little use for anything else.
Now, the reason why maybe four vehicle weapons are wanted is because there is no alternative. The rest of vehicle weaponry is pathetic. Bringing down popular weapons to this pathetic level will only make people not using vehicles at all.
Balancing all existing vehicle weapons so that each of them has some degree of utility, not only few of them, is more likely to bring diversity.
What can be seen now with vehicles is exactly what is achieved with excessive nerfing.
I don't know, Soft Enrage timer, Death Bear Hugs... Killer Cookies!? x3 Suppose up their Damage/attack rate (Like Gravitar) so they're more threatening then Punching Sack.
So here's the problem with making the encounter harder IMHO. It punishes the players without vehicles. Something I'm firmly against. Vehicless teams already find the Lemurian Invasion tough. I'm not saying that can't complete it. But lord knows I run enough PUG's that the encounter is plenty challenging.
The issue with this Rampage is that one vehicle power that is over-performing in context. This is due to a simple mechanic, that allows multiple users to stack it highly. The simplest solution is to limit the stacking. 100 stacks will still keep the power working as intended. And those people without vehicles won't be impacted in the slightest.
Teams of people are already farming Mega D and Forum Malvanum by uber-stacking bonus damage in Plasma Beam 2. Making the Lemurian Encounter for the entire playerbase because of this, just wouldn't be fair. Some players without vehicle are already complaining that they feel excluded.
- and this is coming from the guy who really hates nerfs of any kind.
I don't know, Soft Enrage timer, Death Bear Hugs... Killer Cookies!? x3 Suppose up their Damage/attack rate (Like Gravitar) so they're more threatening then Punching Sack.
I was referring to the elite (tough) difficulty comment specifically. Really we need an AI overhaul, otherwise any "difficulty increase" will be fake.
I take this quote from a review that I agree with.
"customisation is so linear; everyone is after the optimal dps:survivability ratio with 0 reliance on other players = autonomous gameplay... Players don't need each other anymore... which in my opinion is a bad thing."
I don't know, Soft Enrage timer, Death Bear Hugs... Killer Cookies!? x3 Suppose up their Damage/attack rate (Like Gravitar) so they're more threatening then Punching Sack.
Don't we have enough bosses that are HP sacks with high damage? Those fights are still boring.
I don't see a problem with vehicles being competitive with players. It would actually be nice way to allow people to fill multiple roles. DPS toon / healer vehicle. But it seems that weapons are either crap or ridiculously powerful. And to those saying that those weapons are only good for bosses or only trash mob, every enemy in the game falls into one of those categories. So basically, if you have them both, you can wreak every enemy in the game. How is that bad or under performing or niche role?
I noticed it's performance with 75-100 stacks, I think thats a good cap for it.
I can't say for sure where the cap should be, but this sounds reasonable at least. I'm certainly not asking to make the weapon useless. Just tune it down some.
And Gravity Pulse... I'm not asking for any nerfs on that. It's working as intended. The only problem with it when a full team's using it is that I feel like I should be hearing some club music in the background...
Don't we have enough bosses that are HP sacks with high damage? Those fights are still boring.
I don't see a problem with vehicles being competitive with players. It would actually be nice way to allow people to fill multiple roles. DPS toon / healer vehicle. But it seems that weapons are either crap or ridiculously powerful. And to those saying that those weapons are only good for bosses or only trash mob, every enemy in the game falls into one of those categories. So basically, if you have them both, you can wreak every enemy in the game. How is that bad or under performing or niche role?
That's provided said enemy does nothing in return, because there is only one good defensive power for vehicles. Plasma Beam kills thing very slowly. That's also provided this enemy is on map accessible for vehicles.
With Grav Pulse is actually quite easy to die on group of tough trash if there is at least one villain with ranged attacks. Another difference is energy management with vehicles, using reload takes enough time to die on tougher groups if there is nobody tanking them.
That's provided said enemy does nothing in return, because there is only one good defensive power for vehicles. Plasma Beam kills thing very slowly. That's also provided this enemy is on map accessible for vehicles.
With Grav Pulse is actually quite easy to die on group of tough trash if there is at least one villain with ranged attacks. Another difference is energy management with vehicles, using reload takes enough time to die on tougher groups if there is nobody tanking them.
Well, if I go guns blazing into a group of trash mobs on my squishy dps toon, I could die there too. That sounds more like punishment for being reckless than an actual problem with the weapons. From my understanding plasma beam is the boss killer that shines when you have more than one person using it. Considering that people only want plasma beam vehicles to kill harbinger faster and not certain player power builds highlights just how effective this power is against bosses. (you know, doing things as a team and all)
Having crappy defense options has no impact on plasma beam or grav pulse's effectiveness. Two gun isn't made terrible by sticking it on a glass cannon.
Vehicles not being allowed on certain maps is another issue.
Seems to me that these two weapons do what they do very well. If they sucked so bad, vehicles wouldn't be used in SC or LI.
Seems to me that these two weapons do what they do very well. If they sucked so bad, vehicles wouldn't be used in SC or LI.
Yes, they work well. So do actual non-vehicle character powers.
The difference between PB/IR/GP is and other vehicle attacks is that, well... They are actually usable.
The rest of vehicle attacks is ridiculous trash not really needed for anything (save for heals, one shield power and maybe taunts).
If all player character powers were gimped to the point when they're performing like, let's say, vehicle version of micromunitions, and only few powers were left alone, they we'd see untouched powers as mandatory on FF toons as some powers are now on vehicles. Because of lack of real choices.
I agree with the Q rate but not the fact that the tokens are RNG based. Even with the sky carrier drop rates I still had to run the thing about thirty times to get the six tokens out of it with the increased rates. Yes, my luck is THAT bad.
hmmm I thought I was doing wuite well to get 2 for 10 runs. Same ratio as you, 1 in 5.
I've seen it happen. my point is, a proper fix would require redesigning the boss fight in the very least.
it takes FOREVER with no vehicles involved. last time I tried that it took us almost an hour just on the boss. if a token drop were guaranteed, that would be ok.
token drops are far from guaranteed sadly.
not an hour for mine but easily near half an hour.
on Sky Command
I know there is a reason for the 8-10 reward circles but when someone is near them and immediately grabs. There isn't always time for everyone to grab everything.
I've been in ones where people are trying to get the last few circles and can't because the timer runs out to leave.
Could you just stick them in one circle? or change the timer
Comments
Yep, after a day, this became the standard PQ team. Vehicles with PB and/or GP.
Alas.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
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I will say, though, I ran private queues with no "must have" statements. They went fine, though it actually took several minutes to defeat the Bleak Harbinger.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
I have to agree. 100 stacks is enough to do the intended job, without turning the entire Rampage into something that can finished in 5-minutes if you have full vehicle team. I wouldn't be surprise if this weren't implemented.
It's not like Harbinger is a complicated fight anyway, no matter how hard he hits, how many HP he has and how long it takes to kill him. He is, and will remain, a big, stationary tank and spank target.
Making the fight longer will not change anything except for it being longer for the sake of being longer. It's not even a difficulty raise.
PS, Pets don't work in Fire & Ice & Using Crowd Control makes them move. O.-.o
I take this quote from a review that I agree with.
"customisation is so linear; everyone is after the optimal dps:survivability ratio with 0 reliance on other players = autonomous gameplay... Players don't need each other anymore... which in my opinion is a bad thing."
The "problem" is that one vehicle weapon outperforms other options by such a huge margin. I have never seen anyone ask for a "defiance/haymaker tank", or a "TGM/quarry dps", or a "iniquity/AoRP healer" for any content. Even though those make for some of the best builds for those roles, they aren't outperforming other options as much as PB does, and to perform at their peak efficiency don't require a full team of similar builds.
If it is decided that harbinger is meant to be killed in less than a minute that would be fine (or not), but that should then be possible for more diverse team setups.
I agree with this. Although I appreciate the effort that went into creating this alert; the cut scenes are well done and the Bleak Harbinger looks awesome; after the first couple of times it's a boring encounter. It's impossible to fail, there's not really any challenge other than trying to see how fast you can do it. I think nerfing vehicles just to make the alert longer (and more boring) would be a mistake.
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
This does not have anything to do with the fight then, by effect. This is a power balance issue with vehicles. This should be its own thread.
That's not more interesting, that's how to make a hp sack bigger =P
I don't know, Soft Enrage timer, Death Bear Hugs... Killer Cookies!? x3 Suppose up their Damage/attack rate (Like Gravitar) so they're more threatening then Punching Sack.
I take this quote from a review that I agree with.
"customisation is so linear; everyone is after the optimal dps:survivability ratio with 0 reliance on other players = autonomous gameplay... Players don't need each other anymore... which in my opinion is a bad thing."
This is only really an issue with the lemurian alert. So it is fully tied to the rampage revamp, and fits in with the feedback to that revamp. And since people are still using the PTS threat for that...
As far as I am concerned the revamp is still part of PTS changes, since it are still actively being tweaked.
That's precisely problem with some vehicle weapons being just crappy.
Aside of Harbinger, Plasma Beam isn't that good. It has some use with open world bosses, though. But aside of boss fights? This weapon has a very arrow utility.
Pretty much the same with Grav Pulse. Good for clearing trash or farming, but of little use for anything else.
Now, the reason why maybe four vehicle weapons are wanted is because there is no alternative. The rest of vehicle weaponry is pathetic. Bringing down popular weapons to this pathetic level will only make people not using vehicles at all.
Balancing all existing vehicle weapons so that each of them has some degree of utility, not only few of them, is more likely to bring diversity.
What can be seen now with vehicles is exactly what is achieved with excessive nerfing.
So here's the problem with making the encounter harder IMHO. It punishes the players without vehicles. Something I'm firmly against. Vehicless teams already find the Lemurian Invasion tough. I'm not saying that can't complete it. But lord knows I run enough PUG's that the encounter is plenty challenging.
The issue with this Rampage is that one vehicle power that is over-performing in context. This is due to a simple mechanic, that allows multiple users to stack it highly. The simplest solution is to limit the stacking. 100 stacks will still keep the power working as intended. And those people without vehicles won't be impacted in the slightest.
Teams of people are already farming Mega D and Forum Malvanum by uber-stacking bonus damage in Plasma Beam 2. Making the Lemurian Encounter for the entire playerbase because of this, just wouldn't be fair. Some players without vehicle are already complaining that they feel excluded.
- and this is coming from the guy who really hates nerfs of any kind.
I was referring to the elite (tough) difficulty comment specifically. Really we need an AI overhaul, otherwise any "difficulty increase" will be fake.
Oops.. I'm sorry sir.
Along with other things.
I take this quote from a review that I agree with.
"customisation is so linear; everyone is after the optimal dps:survivability ratio with 0 reliance on other players = autonomous gameplay... Players don't need each other anymore... which in my opinion is a bad thing."
Don't we have enough bosses that are HP sacks with high damage? Those fights are still boring.
I don't see a problem with vehicles being competitive with players. It would actually be nice way to allow people to fill multiple roles. DPS toon / healer vehicle. But it seems that weapons are either crap or ridiculously powerful. And to those saying that those weapons are only good for bosses or only trash mob, every enemy in the game falls into one of those categories. So basically, if you have them both, you can wreak every enemy in the game. How is that bad or under performing or niche role?
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
And Gravity Pulse... I'm not asking for any nerfs on that. It's working as intended. The only problem with it when a full team's using it is that I feel like I should be hearing some club music in the background...
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With Grav Pulse is actually quite easy to die on group of tough trash if there is at least one villain with ranged attacks. Another difference is energy management with vehicles, using reload takes enough time to die on tougher groups if there is nobody tanking them.
Well, if I go guns blazing into a group of trash mobs on my squishy dps toon, I could die there too. That sounds more like punishment for being reckless than an actual problem with the weapons. From my understanding plasma beam is the boss killer that shines when you have more than one person using it. Considering that people only want plasma beam vehicles to kill harbinger faster and not certain player power builds highlights just how effective this power is against bosses. (you know, doing things as a team and all)
Having crappy defense options has no impact on plasma beam or grav pulse's effectiveness. Two gun isn't made terrible by sticking it on a glass cannon.
Vehicles not being allowed on certain maps is another issue.
Seems to me that these two weapons do what they do very well. If they sucked so bad, vehicles wouldn't be used in SC or LI.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
Yes, they work well. So do actual non-vehicle character powers.
The difference between PB/IR/GP is and other vehicle attacks is that, well... They are actually usable.
The rest of vehicle attacks is ridiculous trash not really needed for anything (save for heals, one shield power and maybe taunts).
If all player character powers were gimped to the point when they're performing like, let's say, vehicle version of micromunitions, and only few powers were left alone, they we'd see untouched powers as mandatory on FF toons as some powers are now on vehicles. Because of lack of real choices.
hmmm I thought I was doing wuite well to get 2 for 10 runs. Same ratio as you, 1 in 5. I'm in Pugs and we usually only have a few vehicles and that is quite enough bright flashs.
not an hour for mine but easily near half an hour.
on Sky Command
I know there is a reason for the 8-10 reward circles but when someone is near them and immediately grabs. There isn't always time for everyone to grab everything.
I've been in ones where people are trying to get the last few circles and can't because the timer runs out to leave.
Could you just stick them in one circle? or change the timer
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