Unstoppable vs Way of the Warrior

superalfgorn

Are there builds where Unstoppable is better the WotW? I do not really see where Unstoppable would be more desirable...

It seems to me that, since the damage boost is the same (bleeds aside), we have to look at the other benefits.

Then, the difference between the two -defense wise- is the abysmal damage absorption and low knock resistance vs the dodge/avoidance boost. Energy-wise I guess that energy on knock is better than energy on enemy dodge.


So... am I missing something? Why should I choose Unstoppable (now that auras are no longer a factor)?

flowcyto

I wouldn't really ever pick Unstoppable in its current state, tbh. The energy return could be nice for certain builds, but there's many other ways to manage or get more energy that I'd rather not significantly lower my passive defenses just for that.

kenteko

Generally speaking, the choices tend to run between WoTW, Unstoppable, and Earth Form (since it boosts physical). Unstoppable's damage reduction, while garbage, is more mitigation then most people tend to give credit for. A loop character may be very well off taking US since they can push it to low numbers or if they primarily solo.

That being said, US is on the bad side of "alright" when compared to its two competitors, simply because dodge can provide a more reliable damage boost against AOE (and it stacks with The Elusive Monk) while Earth Form provides a monumental crushing resist (i.e. Gravitar). US is by and far the best soloing build for normals and such though, as henchmen and their ilk will do very little damage to you comparatively.

cptmillennium

Captain Millennium uses Unstoppable. I prefer Earth Form for overall defense and utility, but energy management is an issue with anything but Unstoppable in my current build. My STR and CON get all my mods, so I went with REC as a third stat, and at only 71 it provides a solid return on every knock.

If you have an alternative form of energy management, I'd go with something else.

crypticbuxom

I can only think that Unstoppable is okay if you don't spec STR and want that knock resist. But that resist is only enough to avoid non boss knocks.

WotW is just too good in comparison even if you don't bleed. Everything dodges reliable so you get energy from potentially everything. And the dodge boost is infinitely better than the flat damage resist of Unstoppable.

Well I guess Unstoppable's damage resist is alright if you hate getting bit by gnats. Just not the ones in CO.

cptmillennium wrote: »

Captain Millennium uses Unstoppable. I prefer Earth Form for overall defense and utility, but energy management is an issue with anything but Unstoppable in my current build. My STR and CON get all my mods, so I went with REC as a third stat, and at only 71 it provides a solid return on every knock.

If you have an alternative form of energy management, I'd go with something else.

With this stat setup and using Earth Form, by dedicating one of your secondaries to Rec and having MSA, your energy problems isn't an issue if you attack with lower costing energy attacks every once in a while.

cptmillennium

I tested extensively with each of the passives, and while each had its advantages, Unstoppable just gave me the most predictable, controllable energy feed. Between it and Enrage I can just about fill my energy bar with each knock. WotW was just too unpredictable.

I do love the big Crushing resist of Earth Form, and may experiment further with it now that the aura is removed. But while the defensive bonus from Unstoppable is small, coupled with Juggernaut from the STR tree it's still been good for me. I do feel the absorption could be higher, doubled even. Unstoppable currently absorbs 33 damage for me. At 60 it would still be less than half Invulnerability's (with no resistance), and be more competitive.

flowcyto

cptmillennium wrote: »

I do feel the absorption could be higher, doubled even. Unstoppable currently absorbs 33 damage for me. At 60 it would still be less than half Invulnerability's (with no resistance), and be more competitive.

yeah unfortunately, Unstoppable's damage shield is a finer tipping point in terms of balance- as it would be easy to over-buff it. Around 55-70 sounds alright vs. IDF and Invuln.

cptmillennium

Right, it can't get higher than that, and I wouldn't be surprised if testing proved anything over 50 to be a problem.

Still, I picked it and prefer it at least in my current build...so it's got something going for it. Maybe it's fine as it is.

helbjorn

cptmillennium wrote: »

Right, it can't get higher than that, and I wouldn't be surprised if testing proved anything over 50 to be a problem.

I would agree with this, considering Rank 1 IDF gives about 92 mitigation at level 40. Even buffing it to 50 would require a slight decrease in the damage buff, IMO.

oniganon

Choosing an offensive passive based on its defensive benefits seems pretty strange to me, especially after the dodge nerf. I always choose based on what damage types I need boosted, and any defensive benefit is a distant afterthought. If I was worried about defense, I'd choose a defensive passive.

But while the defensive benefit of Unstoppable is small, it's very noticeable when you're surrounded by enemies and you block. And knock resist is always nice.


You use Unstoppable if you're using a build where your main attacks have a knock effect. Probably alongside Enrage.

For example: I use it on a Force/Might build where my main attacks are Inexorable Tides, Roomsweeper, Unleashed Rage and Force Cascade, all of which are knocks. Together with Enrage and MSA, I have the energy income necessary to use Cascade.

cptmillennium

oniganon wrote: »

Choosing an offensive passive based on its defensive benefits seems pretty strange to me, especially after the dodge nerf. I always choose based on what damage types I need boosted, and any defensive benefit is a distant afterthought. If I was worried about defense, I'd choose a defensive passive.

Don't think about it as choosing an offensive passive FOR it's defensive benefit. Rather, look at it as a ranking of priorities. Firstly, I wanted an offensive passive so I could run in Melee Damage role, secondly I wanted a passive that augmented the type of damage I'd be dealing. Those first two aren't hard to find, so the determining factor tends to be the tertiary benefits, like the defensive or utility aspects. Earth Form has strong defense and utility with the localized snare, but the energy return from Unstoppable compensated for that to let me get higher DPS overall.

superalfgorn

Very good discussion! And yes since for my build the damge boost between Unstopp. and WotW is the same I was looking more at the secondary benefits.

It looks like the energy return from knocks is significant so I will have to evaluate Defense vs Energy.... I will use Enrage and Knocks and no bleeds, so probably I will use Unstoppable.

oniganon

Note: Unstoppable's energy return scales on Rec.

superalfgorn

Yes REC will be a SSS for this toon.
After all this discussion I mise post the build... :biggrin:

The hero, W.H.A.M., is a governamental undercover operative using an experimental melee power armor (Wetworks Heavy Armor Module). The key power is designed to be Gauntlet Chainsaw.

I will need to gear for Crit Chance.




PowerHouse (Link to this build)

Name: W.H.A.M.

Archetype: Freeform

Super Stats:
Level 6: Strength (Primary)
Level 10: Constitution (Secondary)
Level 15: Recovery (Secondary)

Talents:
Level 1: The Blade
Level 6: Impresario
Level 9: Martial Focus
Level 12: Acrobat
Level 15: Survival Training
Level 18: Covert Ops Training
Level 21: Jack of All Trades

Powers:
Level 1: Hawk's Talons
Level 1: Viper's Fangs (Rank 2)
Level 6: Thunderbolt Lunge
Level 8: Gauntlet Chainsaw (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 11: Unstoppable (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 14: Rend and Tear (Rank 2, Drake's Deliverance)
Level 17: Enrage (Endorphin Rush)
Level 20: Demolish (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 23: Conviction (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 26: Smoke Bomb (Concussive Escape)
Level 29: Aggressor (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 32: Resurgence (Rank 2, Evanescent Emergence)
Level 35: Molecular Self-Assembly
Level 38: Howl

Travel Powers:
Level 6: Jet Pack (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 35: Superjump

Specializations:
Strength: Swole (2/3)
Strength: Physical Peak (3/3)
Strength: Brutality (2/2)
Strength: Juggernaut (3/3)
Warden: Fortified Gear (3/3)
Warden: Ruthless (2/2)
Warden: Upper Hand (2/3)
Warden: The Best Defense (3/3)
Brawler: The Glory of Battle (3/3)
Brawler: Penetrating Strikes (2/2)
Brawler: Ruthless (2/2)
Brawler: Finishing Blow (1/3)
Brawler: Setup (2/2)
Mastery: Strength Mastery (1/1)

avianos

I think they need to BUFF the Damage Absorption of Unstoppable, OR give some Damage Resistance like the Earth Form has, for Physical Damage Attacks

2 Digits Damage Absorption ? GET OUT OF HERE!

Now Check out the Archetypes which Use Unstoppable, The Devastator and The Unleashed

The Devastator is taking MORE advantage of Unstoppable Energy return, since the majority of the attacks are Knocks (this archetypes don't even need a Energy Unlock :biggrin:) I use Eruption or Brimstone and I get a lot of Energy Back from both Unstoppable and Enrage (REC is a great stat!)

Unleashed on the other hand... None of the Dual-Blade attacks have Knocks... it force you to use the Force Snap and Force Snap & Force Geyser (which I absolutly hate to rely on) or using the Energy Builder or taking advantage of the Force Shield + Force Sheathe ADV

flowcyto

If Gauntlet Chainsaw (GC) is to be ur bread-and-butter attack, Superalfgorn, then Unstoppable may not help that much since ur primary attack has no knock component.

I'd actually recommend you pick up a focus/Dex toggle (Form of Tempest is the best for this build) instead of Enrage and getting an ability that grants you Rush (you have rend and tear and viper's fangs in there, so Dragon's Claws would fit that theme, for example), because GC is a big energy hog. That means switching ur gear to primarily Dex instead of Str (though you can still use Str as the primary SS cause its spec tree is great for GC- something like Str/Dex/Con or Str/Dex/Int for MSA could work, picking up some Rec on the side).