I have to get on at a time that isn't 1am and try it, but how managable are the random Rimfires?
I'd be completely with you if they were basically a "Wake up, you're being hit!" type deal, but if they have the same level of substance that Gravitar's Random Bubbles or cascades have, then I'd say this argument falls flat. If mechanics bypass threat, as random targeted attacks do, then Tanks cant keep you from getting hit, and that would cause stuff to start to fall apart.
The Brou Phase wasn't fatal. I believe I was able to move out of the lava plumes which was hitting for 700 ticks. The rimefires hit me for 2k ticks which I managed to survive. Damage was after my 50% reduction and I can't be sure if the numbers were with blocking. The lava plumes are not very visible, what alerted me was taking ticks of damage. But the rimefires will show telegraphed columns like orbital cannon appearing everywhere before it hits you for ticks.
The other mechanic where one falls however was deadly. We initially blitzed Frosticus and that quickly meant the end.
Hey, anyone remember when the cosmics in the game actually felt Cosmic? When Shadow Destroyer actually could wipe out a team if they did not work together?
Can we please not turn this encounter into a borefest of "hit the big bag of hp" like just about every other boss encounter currently in the game?
I am really excited that this will be even a little bit challenging. Let's keep it that way.
Havent had time to test this, but I would like to think this isn't going to be a "Super Tank" version of Forum Malvanum Alert which requires "Super DPS" all round to bust through DuraClad stage, which locks off the rest of the alert for a portion of the player base who may not focus on "Super DPS".
Whilst I do like challenging content (Like the OW Firewing fight), I would like to think it should be made accessible to everyone.
Does anyone have any hints or tips?
EDIT: Due to my lack of testing I am erring on the side of caution, my opinion will likely change once my testing has been complete.
yes but it depends on the level of challenge and the type of challenge. some challenges are simply too much for casuals due to how its designed or how great the sheer challenge is.
That's when you tell those types of casuals get over it and/or wait till it's being beaten by everyone.
I'm not against it being tough, even extremely so. but if its gonna be tough, do it the right way. do it so most builds have a chance if they play smart, don't make it a "dont bother if you arent stacking 400+ CON" type of crap.
its possible with the right mechanics. you don't need to have bosses doing 20k damage a regular attack for something to be challenging.
This is impossible because of the core of the game mechanics. Wait for Cryptic North to get involved in the games powers so they can at least get balance back to a tolerable level.
Hey, anyone remember when the cosmics in the game actually felt Cosmic? When Shadow Destroyer actually could wipe out a team if they did not work together?
Can we please not turn this encounter into a borefest of "hit the big bag of hp" like just about every other boss encounter currently in the game?
I am really excited that this will be even a little bit challenging. Let's keep it that way.
So far no one has requested this to be any less challenging for the scenario of 'tank and spank' to become true, but people need to be reminded that challenge and accessibility need not be mutually exclusive.
The rampage has mechanics in place that a non cohesive team already guarantees failure. And it also has guaranteed one shot kills (80k) that ignores any mitigation that can also lead to a non balanced team's failure. The emphasis on teamwork and team balance is something sorely missed since on-alert.
But in between, it also deprives every AT (except the tank ones supported by a freeform healer) and even freeforms not tailored a certain way a decent fighting chance at it. That's when moderation, or other aspects of the rampage affecting this needs to be looked at.
But in between, it also deprives every AT (except the tank ones supported by a freeform healer) and even freeforms not tailored a certain way a decent fighting chance at it. That's when moderation, or other aspects of the rampage affecting this needs to be looked at.
I think that given how horribly the AT builds were designed there will not be a good way to design the encounter to be both AT-friendly and challenging for freeforms.
I'm hopeful that this will be an encounter where you finally should take a block enhancer....or even GO CRAY and rank it to r3!! Wow!! Or that you'll need to rotate crippling challenge based on who has an active defense off cooldown! Tank and support toons will be useful...the currently completely useless mechanic of threat management will get some love as well.
But ya, stuff like bigger tells for the spike attacks that can one-shot players would be great though.
I think you read a lot into that last post you quoted. Taking a block to R3 is NOT the same as "forced to build in certain ways", at least not the way I think you mean it.
Heck, I do R2 on blocks for the 40s I want to fight Gravitar - especially the tanks or melee. It's not that big a deal in the grand scheme of things at 40.
But yes - if this Rampage is an exercise in damage mitigation - then many 40s won't handle it. Just like Forum Malvanum - the Duraclad round is an exercise in FAST DPS. I've had teams that blasted through the previous rounds just barely fail due to the low timer and the cutscene eating time. It is what it is.
Ideally, every *player* should be able to do all content, although silvers may have trouble unless they get on a prebuilt team. But should every *character* be equally able to do every mission/rampage/instance without having to build for it?
I'm not the best player, I make plenty of mistakes and am far from "Elite". But there are common sense things everyone does to survive things like Gravitar and Therakiel's Temple. One of them is to take a block and rank it up. Block is a damage mitagator everyone get's access to and can help make difficult content a little easier.
I've played the new challenge a few times. Those times it was a failure, but that was mostly because I didn't have one iota of clue about what I was doing. It was the same with Gravitar and Cybermind. But then I practiced tried a few more times and learned from my errors.
The game is already on 'easy mode'. I don't think nerfing the current challenge into applesauce is the smart thing to do. It will be difficult at first, people will adapt and adjust and then it won't be at first. That's the whole point of a challenge, it pushes you to improve and not stay stagnant. We need more challenges in the game, puzzles for people to figure out and conquer. Not less.
Giving debuffs like that would give Celestial Cleansing a reason to be used. That would make sense but would contradict everything in Champions because...IT MAKES SENSE!
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
no its not. Cybermind is an example of how this is possible, although an imperfect one.
No, the cybermind fight was when the devs decided to give a one up to those arrogant soloing tanks, and still failed to level the playing field. Yes, people tanked the rain, bubbles bro.
No, the cybermind fight was when the devs decided to give a one up to those arrogant soloing tanks, and still failed to level the playing field. Yes, people tanked the rain, bubbles bro.
Doesn't take away from the point that it IS possible for them to come up with more interesting mechanics that don't just focus on hp and damage.
Oh wait, that would require them being given the resources to implement such creative ideas.
Silly, me carry on.
If there had never been a COH there would never have been a CO. :cool:
see you think people should be forced to build in certain ways, which is completely contrary to how this game is supposed to be, make the hero you want.
Hey, anyone remember when the cosmics in the game actually felt Cosmic? When Shadow Destroyer actually could wipe out a team if they did not work together?
I would love some fights that are challenging for everyone, but with the current options for players in CO that seems pretty much impossible. Barring one hit kill types of attacks, you can either balance stuff for the min/max builds and make it impossible for theme/unoptimized builds, or balance for a more average build and make it a cakewalk for the strongest builds.
So either we go for one hit kill stuff, accept stuff getting balanced for builds performing at a certain level, or change/limit the options/choices for survivability/damage of players.
To be a devil's advocate, a scaling debuff is an example of a soft enrage which is certainly good in concept, but tends to focus more on maximizing DPS over survivability. Ignoring something like Celestial Cleansing (which would cause said thing to theoretically trivialize the debuffs), forcing someone to build one way (DPS) would not do anything different then forcing someone to build another way (Survival).
The fact of the matter is, certain "tools" need to be considered as omnipresent for certain situations in order to really create a starting point. It's not a bad thing that the devs consider the presence of an Active Defense/Offense, ignoring the AT point, but it's absolutely insane to believe that people should be able to build glass cannon and survive just fine.
Ultimately, something like Gravitar that has absolutely random Force Cascades is a way of doing it wrong. What we should be campaigning for is not the removal of that, but a giant telegraphed sign to say "BLOCK NOW" as was the original intent with stuff like the POW bubbles and the like. If the devs could code it so that a giant bubble popped up in a readily viewable area (like above your hotbar) that said "WATCH OUT!" or something like that a few seconds before you took a hit for more then 50% of your HP, you'd watch stuff like Force Cascade no longer be an issue and unavoidable damage would be much more understandable.
And FYI, all your suggestion fall under the one hit kill mechanics as far as I am concerned. They only have some added fluff to make them look a little different, or have over the years lost their danger (and thus their use) for tanky builds (in the case of Therakiels big charge attack) or people who know how the fight works (for Therakiels hold beam).
To add to what I said. There are some possibilities of adding mechanics to a fight that do not lock you out of the fight, but still need to be used to have any chance of winning. So I'll change that one hit kill requirement, to any mechanic that you need to use to have a chance at winning, and that works more or less independent of your build.
and @aiqua, one of my suggestions was to apply debuffs which would equalize the difference between non min maxed and uberl33t monstrosity builds, debuffs which are avoidable, but theres a limited time window to do so, and it can come from nowhere.
you can't seriously say that's one hit kill. maybe if the debuff lands it is, but that's already not one hit.
What kind of debuff would that be that is works better on all the strongest builds, but does less on weaker builds? We don't need a weird debuff for that, that should just be handled by the devs by nerfing/limiting the silly OP stuff.
And what does it even matter, if you fail to avoid those things, either you are out of the fight due to some debuff (which almost none can remove, so now you have to wait for it to run out or take something like celestial cleansing for 'ONE piece of content'), or you're out of the fight due to dying (and rezzed a few moments later).
people should not have to build just for ONE piece of content. the alert needs to be doable for almost anyone, I know there will always be people too gimped to succeed in stuff like that, it happens.
Who are you arguing here? I don't see anyone saying the alert should only be accessible for certain builds.
if you think tanks and healers are useless there's something wrong with your perception of the game
My perception of the game on Live is that it's so easy that if the mechanics of threat management and healing other players disappeared in the next patch, most people would be fine. And I think that sucks. Which is why I'm excited for a challenge where these mechanics will make a significant difference.
if you think tanks and healers are useless there's something wrong with your perception of the game or you simply have trouble building tanks or healers. I'd be inclined more towards the former.
I would say, "mostly useless," rather than just, "useless."
Oh boy, another dumb **** boss alert issue taking precedence over the much ignored PvP issues. The worthlessness of acclaim, etc. **** bag devs only care about the pve half of their game. Atrocious.
Fixing tanking/healing does not have to come down to making a holy trinity, nobody is in that field. A blanket 100% higher HP for everyone with a blanket 50% damage buff to everything (enemy wise) would go a long way to making healers worthwhile, since there's significantly more of a buffer for non con characters and, relatively, con characters won't be that much better off.
Tanks need a full rework. Threat is really iffy and confusing on top of it being fairly invisible to most people. Couple this with the tank role being fairly bad (damage loss and the energy is an issue for a large amount of builds) and the role of multiple tanks somewhat confusing or redundant. Tanks layering debuffs or sharing communal damage is another way to make tanks relevant without the holy trinity.
Honestly Gradii, people still build the way they want and often do so without con in their super stats or with different/strange builds. Another fight that promotes having high HP is just par the course, so the best thing to do is to suggest a case where pumping con is equal (like a % HP drain) or various other things.
The game does not need changing to make healers feel worthwhile. they already are if you build them as buff characters. there really is no designed niche for pure healers in this game and never was as far as I can tell. sad but true and trying to change everything else around that to carve such a niche would be stupid.
and if frosticus is hitting for the numbers I'm seeing here no one without con will survive.
the way to properly design these encounters is not to change everything around them, nor to make it only doable with certain builds.
use your head. debuffs, synergies beween boss attacks, challenge =/= uber high damage enemies.
I said healers, not buffers. Not every support wants to be a Primal Majesty buff bot. Some people want to use Arcane Clarity, Radiant Protection, and/or Medical Nanites (yea, I know I know) and some people like seeing green numbers. Healers can definitely exist if presence's scaling actually meant more then "How big your aura is" as most heals go from normal to OH GOD OVERHEALING really quick.
And again, there's nothing wrong with debuffs or the like, but you need to realize how much more dependent that makes the game on support/healers. Celestial Cleansing alone, if it works, will suddenly trivialize the entire encounter if you have enough CDR. Slowly stacking uncleansable debuffs are the realm of tank swaps, which the game currently lacks any real sort of ability to do so.
Synergies? Great idea, expand further. Rereading all I've read is varying levels of "This needs to be accessible to everyone" and "Debuffs." You've said Gravitar's bubble and ice cages, but how about some specifics? Is it a 10% debuff? Is it a flat defense debuff? What about dodge/regen/PFF? What about HP stackers? How will it effect one and not the other, or are we looking at some Sunwell Radiance fun times (man I wonder who gets that reference)?
I also hesitate a little when you bring up "Con HP stackers" as being the only way because I've run a melee consistently through Gravitar that not only has no AD, but uses Dark Transfusion as part of her cycle. She has con super stats, but she sits at around 6-7k HP. Not only is it possible, but it's not that bad as long as you play intelligently. Do I still occasionally die to bad luck streaks? Sure, but I don't need anything other then token Con (i.e. building intelligently) to get by. Even if I was Dex/Ego/Int, I could run two ADs as range, or just build Greater Health primary defenses or use the secondaries for it. There is a difference between "Building how you want" and "Building how you want in an intelligent manner" that is often overlooked or flat out ignored.
and you seriously think the answer is the holy trinity where everyone is forced to need a healer?!
if you choose to ignore the simple fact that there's a better way, then go play something else or at least stop trying to steer this game into the abyss of forced healers needed and cookie cutter building.
Content can be both challenging and accessible, especially with ones such as this with mechanics in place to provide challenge by fostering cohesiveness among a balanced team as well as emphasis on reaction.
The problem with the 2 main differing opinions in this discussion is players are so set in their minds that they argue in the extremes. None of which in the recent pages are helpful. Moderation need not mean the squishiest of ATs can tank, nor challenge itself meant to put nigh unkillable builds to the test.
A hybrid AT supported by an AoRP healer getting decent amount of uptime? That to me is accessibility, though many opinions here seem to think otherwise.
Comments
A casual player doesn't necessarily mean they don't want a challenge, and I'd love to try it... if I wasn't silver :P
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I have to get on at a time that isn't 1am and try it, but how managable are the random Rimfires?
I'd be completely with you if they were basically a "Wake up, you're being hit!" type deal, but if they have the same level of substance that Gravitar's Random Bubbles or cascades have, then I'd say this argument falls flat. If mechanics bypass threat, as random targeted attacks do, then Tanks cant keep you from getting hit, and that would cause stuff to start to fall apart.
The other mechanic where one falls however was deadly. We initially blitzed Frosticus and that quickly meant the end.
I'm a casual player.
I'm a casual player who enjoys challenging content.
Wrap your mind around that.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Join Date: Aug 2009 | Title: Devslayer
Can we please not turn this encounter into a borefest of "hit the big bag of hp" like just about every other boss encounter currently in the game?
I am really excited that this will be even a little bit challenging. Let's keep it that way.
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Whilst I do like challenging content (Like the OW Firewing fight), I would like to think it should be made accessible to everyone.
Does anyone have any hints or tips?
EDIT: Due to my lack of testing I am erring on the side of caution, my opinion will likely change once my testing has been complete.
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That's when you tell those types of casuals get over it and/or wait till it's being beaten by everyone.
This is impossible because of the core of the game mechanics. Wait for Cryptic North to get involved in the games powers so they can at least get balance back to a tolerable level.
The rampage has mechanics in place that a non cohesive team already guarantees failure. And it also has guaranteed one shot kills (80k) that ignores any mitigation that can also lead to a non balanced team's failure. The emphasis on teamwork and team balance is something sorely missed since on-alert.
But in between, it also deprives every AT (except the tank ones supported by a freeform healer) and even freeforms not tailored a certain way a decent fighting chance at it. That's when moderation, or other aspects of the rampage affecting this needs to be looked at.
I think that given how horribly the AT builds were designed there will not be a good way to design the encounter to be both AT-friendly and challenging for freeforms.
I'm hopeful that this will be an encounter where you finally should take a block enhancer....or even GO CRAY and rank it to r3!! Wow!! Or that you'll need to rotate crippling challenge based on who has an active defense off cooldown! Tank and support toons will be useful...the currently completely useless mechanic of threat management will get some love as well.
But ya, stuff like bigger tells for the spike attacks that can one-shot players would be great though.
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Spectre beats Eido in an SG run: VIDEO HERE
I think you read a lot into that last post you quoted. Taking a block to R3 is NOT the same as "forced to build in certain ways", at least not the way I think you mean it.
Heck, I do R2 on blocks for the 40s I want to fight Gravitar - especially the tanks or melee. It's not that big a deal in the grand scheme of things at 40.
But yes - if this Rampage is an exercise in damage mitigation - then many 40s won't handle it. Just like Forum Malvanum - the Duraclad round is an exercise in FAST DPS. I've had teams that blasted through the previous rounds just barely fail due to the low timer and the cutscene eating time. It is what it is.
Ideally, every *player* should be able to do all content, although silvers may have trouble unless they get on a prebuilt team. But should every *character* be equally able to do every mission/rampage/instance without having to build for it?
I know my opinion on that...
I'm not the best player, I make plenty of mistakes and am far from "Elite". But there are common sense things everyone does to survive things like Gravitar and Therakiel's Temple. One of them is to take a block and rank it up. Block is a damage mitagator everyone get's access to and can help make difficult content a little easier.
I've played the new challenge a few times. Those times it was a failure, but that was mostly because I didn't have one iota of clue about what I was doing. It was the same with Gravitar and Cybermind. But then I practiced tried a few more times and learned from my errors.
The game is already on 'easy mode'. I don't think nerfing the current challenge into applesauce is the smart thing to do. It will be difficult at first, people will adapt and adjust and then it won't be at first. That's the whole point of a challenge, it pushes you to improve and not stay stagnant. We need more challenges in the game, puzzles for people to figure out and conquer. Not less.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
That just means one player rotating active defenses and spamming CC?
No, the cybermind fight was when the devs decided to give a one up to those arrogant soloing tanks, and still failed to level the playing field. Yes, people tanked the rain, bubbles bro.
Doesn't take away from the point that it IS possible for them to come up with more interesting mechanics that don't just focus on hp and damage.
Oh wait, that would require them being given the resources to implement such creative ideas.
Silly, me carry on.
If there had never been a COH there would never have been a CO. :cool:
Someone Does.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
Someone else does too (probably)
I would love some fights that are challenging for everyone, but with the current options for players in CO that seems pretty much impossible. Barring one hit kill types of attacks, you can either balance stuff for the min/max builds and make it impossible for theme/unoptimized builds, or balance for a more average build and make it a cakewalk for the strongest builds.
So either we go for one hit kill stuff, accept stuff getting balanced for builds performing at a certain level, or change/limit the options/choices for survivability/damage of players.
The fact of the matter is, certain "tools" need to be considered as omnipresent for certain situations in order to really create a starting point. It's not a bad thing that the devs consider the presence of an Active Defense/Offense, ignoring the AT point, but it's absolutely insane to believe that people should be able to build glass cannon and survive just fine.
Ultimately, something like Gravitar that has absolutely random Force Cascades is a way of doing it wrong. What we should be campaigning for is not the removal of that, but a giant telegraphed sign to say "BLOCK NOW" as was the original intent with stuff like the POW bubbles and the like. If the devs could code it so that a giant bubble popped up in a readily viewable area (like above your hotbar) that said "WATCH OUT!" or something like that a few seconds before you took a hit for more then 50% of your HP, you'd watch stuff like Force Cascade no longer be an issue and unavoidable damage would be much more understandable.
How does that even apply to what I wrote?
And FYI, all your suggestion fall under the one hit kill mechanics as far as I am concerned. They only have some added fluff to make them look a little different, or have over the years lost their danger (and thus their use) for tanky builds (in the case of Therakiels big charge attack) or people who know how the fight works (for Therakiels hold beam).
To add to what I said. There are some possibilities of adding mechanics to a fight that do not lock you out of the fight, but still need to be used to have any chance of winning. So I'll change that one hit kill requirement, to any mechanic that you need to use to have a chance at winning, and that works more or less independent of your build.
Thank you for telling me what I think. That's not annoying at all.
I want to make non-useless tanks and healers.
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What kind of debuff would that be that is works better on all the strongest builds, but does less on weaker builds? We don't need a weird debuff for that, that should just be handled by the devs by nerfing/limiting the silly OP stuff.
And what does it even matter, if you fail to avoid those things, either you are out of the fight due to some debuff (which almost none can remove, so now you have to wait for it to run out or take something like celestial cleansing for 'ONE piece of content'), or you're out of the fight due to dying (and rezzed a few moments later).
Who are you arguing here? I don't see anyone saying the alert should only be accessible for certain builds.
My perception of the game on Live is that it's so easy that if the mechanics of threat management and healing other players disappeared in the next patch, most people would be fine. And I think that sucks. Which is why I'm excited for a challenge where these mechanics will make a significant difference.
Ahhh ok...so which one of these quotes do you wanna go with at the end of the day? The one above or the one below?
Unless what you really meant was, "make the hero you want, but they might be useless" - then you could go with both.
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Spectre beats Eido in an SG run: VIDEO HERE
I would say, "mostly useless," rather than just, "useless."
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
I don't appreciate words being put in my mouth like that.
Read between the lines a little less, and read what people actually say a little more.
The last time I did this alert I was using a dps build without con and I was doing fine.
Also the Uzi thigh accessory would be GREAT in leather, and the Uzi weapon would make a great pistol, just saying.
Tanks need a full rework. Threat is really iffy and confusing on top of it being fairly invisible to most people. Couple this with the tank role being fairly bad (damage loss and the energy is an issue for a large amount of builds) and the role of multiple tanks somewhat confusing or redundant. Tanks layering debuffs or sharing communal damage is another way to make tanks relevant without the holy trinity.
Honestly Gradii, people still build the way they want and often do so without con in their super stats or with different/strange builds. Another fight that promotes having high HP is just par the course, so the best thing to do is to suggest a case where pumping con is equal (like a % HP drain) or various other things.
Being both wrong and mean is not a good way to get people to listen to you.
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Spectre beats Eido in an SG run: VIDEO HERE
I said healers, not buffers. Not every support wants to be a Primal Majesty buff bot. Some people want to use Arcane Clarity, Radiant Protection, and/or Medical Nanites (yea, I know I know) and some people like seeing green numbers. Healers can definitely exist if presence's scaling actually meant more then "How big your aura is" as most heals go from normal to OH GOD OVERHEALING really quick.
And again, there's nothing wrong with debuffs or the like, but you need to realize how much more dependent that makes the game on support/healers. Celestial Cleansing alone, if it works, will suddenly trivialize the entire encounter if you have enough CDR. Slowly stacking uncleansable debuffs are the realm of tank swaps, which the game currently lacks any real sort of ability to do so.
Synergies? Great idea, expand further. Rereading all I've read is varying levels of "This needs to be accessible to everyone" and "Debuffs." You've said Gravitar's bubble and ice cages, but how about some specifics? Is it a 10% debuff? Is it a flat defense debuff? What about dodge/regen/PFF? What about HP stackers? How will it effect one and not the other, or are we looking at some Sunwell Radiance fun times (man I wonder who gets that reference)?
I also hesitate a little when you bring up "Con HP stackers" as being the only way because I've run a melee consistently through Gravitar that not only has no AD, but uses Dark Transfusion as part of her cycle. She has con super stats, but she sits at around 6-7k HP. Not only is it possible, but it's not that bad as long as you play intelligently. Do I still occasionally die to bad luck streaks? Sure, but I don't need anything other then token Con (i.e. building intelligently) to get by. Even if I was Dex/Ego/Int, I could run two ADs as range, or just build Greater Health primary defenses or use the secondaries for it. There is a difference between "Building how you want" and "Building how you want in an intelligent manner" that is often overlooked or flat out ignored.
You have a very active imagination.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
The problem with the 2 main differing opinions in this discussion is players are so set in their minds that they argue in the extremes. None of which in the recent pages are helpful. Moderation need not mean the squishiest of ATs can tank, nor challenge itself meant to put nigh unkillable builds to the test.
A hybrid AT supported by an AoRP healer getting decent amount of uptime? That to me is accessibility, though many opinions here seem to think otherwise.
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