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How to Balance some of the OP Powers
chimerafreek
Posts: 411 Arc User
In particular, I'll be targeting 2GM, Ascension and ER.
2GM: This power could really do with a self snare. all anyone does with this is run away while racking up absurd amounts of damage. I WOULD suggest a self root, but that might be too much (and I'm pretty sure I'll be flamed for suggesting it get self snare as it is.) It could also do without the penetration. Though I wont say do both, Either a self snare -or- remove the penetration (leave that to defender.)
Ascension: Really Should NOT be usable in areas where Travel powers are supposed to be deactivated or the user is afflicted by Nailed to the Ground. It should use the same scripts as other travel powers when under one of those circumstances, and not be there as an emergency escape/break the game by flying when Travel powers are disabled.
Ebon Ruin: This one I could PERSONALLY say quite a lot of negative things about, but putting my bias aside, being the only power to have trauma built into it instead of requiring an Advantage (and being the only Ranged power to get it at that) I really feel like this is just the "Trauma tap" button. I think if a power has Trauma built into it like that, then it should at least require a full charge to APPLY the trauma, instead of just being there as a trauma-tap button. That or Make it Require an Advantage like Haymaker and Brute strike.
Thoughts?
2GM: This power could really do with a self snare. all anyone does with this is run away while racking up absurd amounts of damage. I WOULD suggest a self root, but that might be too much (and I'm pretty sure I'll be flamed for suggesting it get self snare as it is.) It could also do without the penetration. Though I wont say do both, Either a self snare -or- remove the penetration (leave that to defender.)
Ascension: Really Should NOT be usable in areas where Travel powers are supposed to be deactivated or the user is afflicted by Nailed to the Ground. It should use the same scripts as other travel powers when under one of those circumstances, and not be there as an emergency escape/break the game by flying when Travel powers are disabled.
Ebon Ruin: This one I could PERSONALLY say quite a lot of negative things about, but putting my bias aside, being the only power to have trauma built into it instead of requiring an Advantage (and being the only Ranged power to get it at that) I really feel like this is just the "Trauma tap" button. I think if a power has Trauma built into it like that, then it should at least require a full charge to APPLY the trauma, instead of just being there as a trauma-tap button. That or Make it Require an Advantage like Haymaker and Brute strike.
Thoughts?
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@Chimerafreek
@Chimerafreek
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Ascension, check.
2GM, decrease the damage by 15% and leave it. Killing mobility would kill the power's fun part, pvp or pve.
(°∇° ) #megalodon2015
The self snare is a bad idea, due to this power's range. There's no reason a 50 range attack needs a self snare, otherwise anyone using it would find themselves at the mercy of anyone with a 100 range attack that doesn't self snare.
The penetration should probably have been a 1 or 2 pt advantage for the power. However keep in mind, that due to its range this power does need to deal more damage than 100 range powers, and that amount needs to at least be significant. 2GM actually isn't as OP as people initially thought after it was buffed.. that's why you don't see everyone using it anymore.
The entire point of Ascension is that it is an emergency escape. It's not like other travel powers because you can't have it on permanently, and it has a cooldown, so of course it should be given special consideration in regards to nailed to the ground. Removing its use as an emergency escape would completely and utterly gut the power, and we don't really need that happening.
All those other "blah" Active Offenses need some pizazz added to them to make them as desireable as Ascension, without forcing everyone to be part-angel.
Side Note: Making the flight be a 2pt advantage seems fair though, just to make it something that people have to invest in rather than just taking the power and being done with it.
I say both. Make Ebon Ruin's Trauma be both a 2pt (or even 3pt!) advantage, AND it requires a full charge to apply Trauma, AND it has an internal cooldown so it only happens once every 30 seconds!
Heck, I even say remove Trauma from Ebon Ruin entirely: Ranged attacks don't need Trauma. Trauma should be a melee exclusive effect.
With Trauma removed, they could just greatly buff the Damage Over Time portion of Ebon Ruin.
I think you have a bone to pick with a certain PvPer who kited your melee character with 2GM and Ascension and kept you from healing through it with Ebon Ruin.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Hell no. The strafing run targeting mechanic needs to be used more if anything. It's a fun mechanic that adds something new to the game besides all the "tab target" gameplay. Getting rid of the targeting mechanic is the same as saying "I just want more of the same old same old, nothing new please".
The reason that it has to be targeted the way it does is the reason it gets to do so much damage. Strafing Run is another power that we saw a whole lot when it first came out, but now we don't see it much anymore. Yes, it can one shot people, but so can Force Cascade, and FC doesn't require any of the setup or aiming that SR does.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
What control scheme are you using, that you can't use Strafing Run? Do you not use a mouse?
Remembering of course, that while controllers are able to be used, they are not a fully supported feature. Gamepad use is not something to be designed around, as much as I'd like that.
If they did make it fully supported, that'd be a happy occurance, but not something likely.
Make all the piss poor, old powers in line with the new balancing formulas applied with F2P.
I managed fine for the past 4+ years using the Xbox 360 gamepad exclusively for gameplay outside of chatting and menu management (easily fixed with binds), most notably combat gameplay. In fact, I'd argue that it's the way to play the game, but that's just me.
What they _could_ do for Strafing Run is to provide a way for gamepad users to do the targetting without a mouse; either with free mouse movement or tab-targetting.
I don't see that big a deal with the free mouse targetting mechanic of it anyway. It gives you the illusion of targetting control, since at the end of the day you're going to just plant the cursor on a group of enemies like a whole bunch of other targetted-AoE powers and the exact same outcome can be achieved with tab-targetting.
Oh and before a rebuttal is made about how you're able to plant the cursor on an area that an enemy group is running into as some sort of advantage, no it isn't. Tab-targetting is still better than that.
Just bind a button to Toggle Mouse Look. Problem solved.
Hit the key, target Strafing Run, fire it, hit the key again.
I'm sure you'll survive the second or two that that takes.
FYI, the "control scheme" I prefer is using my gamepad... soooo... oh look, I'm not talking from the perspective of someone who uses mouse and keyboard and bias isn't an issue here ~_^
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Ebon ruin, it's a 100ft range power, that hits rather hard, has a DoT effect AND trauma by default, and simply put that's over powered, so, give ER a CD OR make trauma a 2 point advantage OR make it apply on full charge only, the number of people that just spam it is stupid.
Ascension...I'm gonna say the flight needs to be an advantage or capable of being effected by NTTG, because simply put as is it's a giant f!ck you to melee players.
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Yeah some things are broken... no I don't use/abuse them.. where would be the fun in that?
And that's why people cherry pick it with their other powers, so they can tap-apply Trauma and then easily out DPS their healing as long as no active defense is up in most cases. Taking this power can basically double the effectiveness of one's build, there's no reason why a single power should be that effective.
Except the power in question is a power you'd NEVER bother to use in PvE. Except those rare moments one decides they want to do an Ao'qephoth alert. But it's honestly easier just to NOT do those.
@Chimerafreek
Indeed... the whole idea of balancing around PvP is flawed... if a power is OP in PvP then the skill should be split for PvE & PvP so that nerfs applied for the sake of PvP don't kill the skills usefulness in PvE.
(°∇° ) #megalodon2015
Not even remotely true. There top DPS powers for PvE differ greatly from the top DPS powers in PvP. The reason behind this is that some debuffs such as Trauma serve little purpose in PvE but when used in PvP they allow you to rip through an opponents defenses... the overwhelming majority of NPCs don't use healing nor do they use high defense passives or forms... let alone the ability to block... very few NPCs block if any.
So when you couple the PvP buffs with high damage you can create powers that's DPS is unmatched in PvP but hardly more than on par with high DPS powers in PvE.
Additionally, many times the buff/debuff when used in PvE provides the opening required for some enemies, and if removed or altered can severely cripple players ability to complete some content.
Moving to the pure DPS side of things, most builds have only one high DPS power. On a side by side comparison these high DPS powers are mostly balanced with eachother. And the majority of them are backbone powers for PvE builds. Nerfing or changing powers for the sake of PvP can and ultimately will break powersets and eventually leave the game mostly unplayable.
Also, apart from mini-mines, requests from the pvp community never lead to destroying a powerset to my knowledge (to my knowledge) so just screaming no no no while covering your ears when someone asks for a power rebalance is wrong. Pvp and pve can cohabitate, yes.
(°∇° ) #megalodon2015
My [Lightning Arc] with Elec build does much better DPS then [2GM] with in 100ft range,
2GM is good only with [Quarry], [Targetting Computer] or [Kinetic Manipulation]. Doesn't have much merritt without Physical Piercing damage bonus.
[Ascension] doesn't do good DPS as instant Offense power.
[Strafing Run] does good DPS but isn't so easy to hit. I can say same thing with on [Plasma Beam].
[Unleashed Rage] and [Mental Storm] must be combined with some other powers to be OP.
Probably [Ebon Ruin] can be fix a bit like highreality have already said but that's all from me.
We don't have any contents annoyed by any OP but Clarence or Takofane, B.A.S.H. or duel. Good for same drop rating in all other contents.
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What does this matter? Without some optimization there are no powers in the game that perform well. But there are still powers that perform much better then others.
In discussions like these TGM seems to be compared to LA time and again, so lets look at that.
You can make a TGM build that does less damage then a LA build, but that probably goes for most powers. When comparing them fairly by making one build optimized for dps using TGM, and one build optimized for dps using LA, the TGM build will do much higher damage (on anything apart from Gravitar).
And TGM doesn't need a support power, like LA does (to add ions), to get that damage.
And TGM has full mobility during its maintain, while LA has non, this is a huge advantage in CO.
And add to that the need for a full 4 seconds maintain on LA (and most other ranged maintains) to get to that high dps while TGM does its full damage from the very first hit.
And TGM adds a single concentration stack for builds that are not using the concentration form itself, that makes TGM work really good on builds using alternative forms (like see below).
All those advantages are by no means countered by a higher range.
You can make a build using UR without using an enrage form, and that will of course not work well. But that is using the power in a way it is not meant to be used. I am seeing more and more people taking enrage on their ranged builds just to have UR. That should tell you something.
Ascension isn't OP because of damage, it is all the other stuff that makes it OP. Stating that damage bonus on ascension is not good, doesn't say anything about the performance of the power.
SR is only hard to hit in pvp, and that is trivialized by a hold, in pve it is insanely OP.
Haymaker already does the highest dps on knock immune targets out of any single melee power. And together with fall damage kills most enemies in pve in one hit. That is fine, there will always be one power that does the best damage, but that power doesn't then need a buff. If you want your might buff there are a lot of weaker powers in might to focus on.
I does 20% more dmg on LA without any support power but slotted passive and same [Concentration] toggle, same gear and similar spec trees.
Try [Lightning Arc](100ft, does hell good DPS with Right Dragon eye core)[Telekinetic Assault](100ft, no lock down)[Epidemic](25feet AoE)[Conflagration][Lightning Storm](50 feet AoE)[Plasma Beam](50ft AoE doing dmg each 0.1 sec)[Sword Cyclone][One Hundred Hands][Gauntlet Chainsaw] by your self and let's talk about TGM again.None of those 9 powers are less DPS then TGM or you wish nerf for everything?
I say this, cause ppl using TGM in B.A.S.H. are now minority and most of them are having TGM not for dealing over powered DPS but themed. You need some Slotted passive even in TGM. Who think Tank or Support using TGM are OP? TGM sin't so magical.
Well, TGM is only good as "starter power" but nothing else.
That is not what my tests show.
This was all tested with the same build, with concentration and dex/int/ego stats and guardian vindicator specs.
(split message due to image limits)
Lightning arc:
Lightning arc + Ball lightning
Lightning arc + Electric form
Lightning arc + Ball lightning + Electric form
Lightning arc + Ball lightning + Quarry
TGM + Targeting computer
TGM + Kinetic Manipulation
TGM + Quarry
Alright, show me a build that doesn't have some energy damage resistance debuff, isn't applying ions, has a free choice of slotted passive, and has LA do more damage then TGM.
Woah woah woah, let's not forget that taking 2GM with a defensive passive is also a potent combo, due to the fact that you're combining that much damage with that much defense (there's a reason that PvP tanks always go for the hardest hitting attacks). Throw support passives like aopm, aoed, and aorp in there too. Hey look, the number of passives where 2GM is a powerful tool is growing!
The question is... in these scenarios is 2GM power because of the combination, or were both halves of the combination already powerful? Since there's no direct synergy in any of these cases, it'd be the latter.
Also, how is the notion that someone might take 2GM with an offensive passive that doesn't buff 2GM's damage even relevent?
Okay sure, I might take 2GM with Fiery Form... but is that really the norm? I think a good enough portion of the player population grasps the concept of "Take an offensive passive that buffs the type of damage your attacks do" (especially since we are now free to do so without worrying that the "aura" of the passive won't fit our theme)...so do we really have to balance around the idea that some people might not grasp that concept?
Is it really smart to balance around the notion of "Well.. I'm sure not everyone can figure out how these combinations work"... because this game isn't actually that difficult to figure out.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I'm not really good a noticing how well some powers are or how weak others are but I have noticed Ascension really isn't being used for the purpose behind it...It really meant as a group panic button for healers I believe....I personally think the self heal part should be removed, a 100 foot 4000-18000 (I have seen myself getting that high with it :P) heal with no target limits is really enough on it's own..the self heal part is not needed, at least on the PvE healer side anyway, I am sure it works on PvP but I really don't know much on that as I don't do PvP much.
Also bare in mind as an AO it has a massive heal and a healing bonus aswell a damage bonus...that's way more than other AOs are giving you (apart from Ego Sure maybe..but well That's a problem on it's own).
Anyway just taking the self heal part away would still leave the Ability alot to work with but help to balance it abit more, maybe I'm wrong there but at least that is how I see it.
I also make use of TGM...though I use it for my PvE healer :P so it's numbers are not that bad...but I run in support role with AORP and Compassion and 10 Ego I can still get 1.5k DPS on it, I have alot of support characters but Seraphim is my main healer and is built around healing with no damage bonus of the sorts, yet I am pulling of more DPS than quite afew of my other support characters who look like they should have better DPS. I have one that is a PA support, with Chest beam, Mini gun, Concussor Beam, Attack toys, Munitions Bots. and her DPS is about the same level as Seraphim..who has TGM :P (both have COmpassion form and yes, her energy is strong enough to maintain everything 100% of the time)
On that I think TGM's damage isn't the problem...it is how easy it is to get good damage from it that it, and it's lack of any real drawback that I find abit much on it.
Sorry if I am wrong but that is just how it appears for me.
Never used Ebon Ruin and don't see it in PvE really...guess that could be a problem on it own?
Just 3 choice isn't called "free" choice.
And LA has a Mod selection called Right Dragon Eye.
Or...Ask Cryptic for moving TGM to Tier 1 and make new Starter power for Munitions. It solves everything.
Which is on the same damage bonus layer as offense and crit severity, so while still nice is not a really big damage increase, well unless you have no crit chance and no offense. So what is this build of yours that does 20% more damage using LA without using ions?
Power creep