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Rebalance active offense/defense
aiqa
Posts: 2,620 Arc User
One of the parts in CO that is not working like I'd want is active offense and defense powers. This has become much worse since On alert since we now have much more cooldown reduction .
My goal here is to further decrease the relative power of ?powerbuilds? and themed builds.
Active defense:
This just needs a nerf, having near permanent MD or chain MD/unbreakable/resurgence is adding much more defense then dodge gear ever did. Most of the nearly unkillable builds are heavily (ab)using this. In my opinion an AD should be something you can use for a short buff when under heavy fire.
Like has been suggested a DR on cooldown reduction would work. But unless you make that a real harsh DR, the effect will be minimal for the ?powerbuilds?, and will affect more themed builds at least as much. I?d be all for adding a DR for more then 100% cooldown reduction, that would stop having one AD up almost permanently. But even with 100% every AD use will just set the cooldown on other AD powers to 15 seconds, so that still means chaining different AD powers is easy.
Another option is to increase the cooldown of the powers themselves, but that just plays out the same as nerfing cooldown reduction.
So additional to a DR on cooldown reduction, I think the only way to change this is to change the shared cooldown. I propose to have every AD use set all your AD powers on a full cooldown.
Active offense:
There are three problems with active offense power.
One is the same as what I explained for AD power, having permanent AO is too much. This can be fixed in the same way as I suggested for AD powers.
Another problem is the balance of AO power, ego surge and ascension hugely stand out as being better then others. I could go on why I feel this way, but I think it is pretty obvious. My proposed change would be remove the CON scaling from the ego surge adv, remove the self healing part on ascension and make it respect travel power blocks.
And lastly what they do for different roles. AD powers stack very very nicely with every build, tank or support or dps. AO powers are adding a lot less to a dps build then what they do for a tank build, this is due to dps builds already being heavily into DR with the damage bonus. This would also be easily fixed by having the damage bonus on AO powers effect the base damage off powers.
My goal here is to further decrease the relative power of ?powerbuilds? and themed builds.
Active defense:
This just needs a nerf, having near permanent MD or chain MD/unbreakable/resurgence is adding much more defense then dodge gear ever did. Most of the nearly unkillable builds are heavily (ab)using this. In my opinion an AD should be something you can use for a short buff when under heavy fire.
Like has been suggested a DR on cooldown reduction would work. But unless you make that a real harsh DR, the effect will be minimal for the ?powerbuilds?, and will affect more themed builds at least as much. I?d be all for adding a DR for more then 100% cooldown reduction, that would stop having one AD up almost permanently. But even with 100% every AD use will just set the cooldown on other AD powers to 15 seconds, so that still means chaining different AD powers is easy.
Another option is to increase the cooldown of the powers themselves, but that just plays out the same as nerfing cooldown reduction.
So additional to a DR on cooldown reduction, I think the only way to change this is to change the shared cooldown. I propose to have every AD use set all your AD powers on a full cooldown.
Active offense:
There are three problems with active offense power.
One is the same as what I explained for AD power, having permanent AO is too much. This can be fixed in the same way as I suggested for AD powers.
Another problem is the balance of AO power, ego surge and ascension hugely stand out as being better then others. I could go on why I feel this way, but I think it is pretty obvious. My proposed change would be remove the CON scaling from the ego surge adv, remove the self healing part on ascension and make it respect travel power blocks.
And lastly what they do for different roles. AD powers stack very very nicely with every build, tank or support or dps. AO powers are adding a lot less to a dps build then what they do for a tank build, this is due to dps builds already being heavily into DR with the damage bonus. This would also be easily fixed by having the damage bonus on AO powers effect the base damage off powers.
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Since all active defenses and offenses have cooldowns, and are supposed to have long cooldowns that mean they need to be used thoughtfully, the fact that cooldown reduction gear has allowed those cooldowns to be reduced so low that active defenses can be used constantly is the real heart of the issue.
Anyone proposing that they nerf the Active Defenses and Offenses themselves is essentially saying that those powers should only really be useful if someone has built in a very specific to reduce their cooldowns so they can be used constantly.
You say that cases where cooldowns are very short are extreme and rare... this just simply isn't the case. This issue is just as widespread as the dodge issue was, and has a similar solution.
Capping active defense cooldowns will not solve the issue, just like capping dodge chance wouldn't have solved the dodge issue; except that here that is even more true, because it's not just active defenses and active offenses that are being overpowered by the current state of Cooldown Reduction. There are many more powers with cooldowns in the game that skyrocket in performance once you've reduced their intended cooldowns to nearly half their level, especially when you consider that this was done through gear with no opportunity cost. The same solution will work here, which is rearranging the entire diminishing returns curve of Cooldown Reduction, as well as shifting the acquirement of cooldown reduction away from gear and back to attributes and powers where it belongs.
The dodge fix worked out fantastically and has greatly improved the game; the cooldown reduction fix will be the same.
I am of the opinion that if someone wants to build in such an extremely specialized way to have extremely low cooldowns, that they should be allowed to do so, but there should be an opportunity cost. Again, you think it's okay to take options away from players, and I just don't think that's okay in a game that is all about customization.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
No, the point is that in my opinion there should never be a way to have an active defense power active permanently. Neither by extreme low cooldowns nor by chaining them one after another.
What do you mean with and opportunity cost? In case you mean having int is a superstat, that is not a big cost. Int work on concentration and MSA, and also has a pvp advantage with a little stealth sight. If it would be the sole option to get good cooldown reduction it starts to look like an almost required superstat.
Making them affect base damage is a huge buff, that would be severely overpowered without some strong limitations.
I know, but the OP proposed these changes which you replied to. Things are not all about you.
I disagree. So long as there is an appropriate opportunity cost, then doing this should be a viable option.
Incorrect; it would only be a required superstat if either everyone had to have short cooldowns to play, or if everyone unanimously decided that they wanted short cooldowns as the focus of their build. Neither of those is the case. The only reason that currently everyone "builds" for short cooldowns, is because there is no opportunity cost to slapping cooldown reduction gear into both utility slots, and then sticking a cooldown reduction mod into that gear. There is no opportunity cost to this, because there are no other options that even remotely come close (this is why legion gear with cooldown reduction on it is vastly more valuable than the others).
Having to stack Int exclusively to get extreme levels of cooldown reduction is where opportunity cost comes in, in that you won't be able to stack anything else meaning you will miss out on the benefits of all other stats. Yes, Int is a good stat, but it's not the only good stat, and a character that has only high Int and low everything else is going to have several important weaknesses that mitigate their ability to cycle cooldowns.
The only reason that chaining/cycling Active Defenses is currently so disproportionately powerful is because of all the other benefits you can have in play at the same time.
Actually, there is something quite OP about these powers when you consider that the lack of opportunity cost means that short cooldown can be paired with anything else. This is just like the dodge issue, because once again it is easily obtained gear standardizing a certain level of power into every single build, with the only builds that don't have it being those where for whatever reason the player decided to take a much worse option.
The problem isn't with active defenses, they are functioning exactly as they should, and if you mess with them you're just breaking one thing to avoid fixing another. Thankfully, the devs realize this as shown by how they handled the dodge fix.
Of course, you know how powerful all those short cooldowns on all those powers other than active defenses is, which is why I suspect you're fighting so hard to aim the nerf bat away from them
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
So what would that cost be? The typical min/max build is taking one or two, maybe three, attack powers and buff those as high as you can? What would you exactly lose out taking at least two AD and two AO powers?
I don't see anything in CO that can compare to that performance increase.
Yes, the game is so easy nothing it needed. But when wanting a high performance build (compared to other builds) it would be pretty mcuh a required SS. That is pretty much the same as crits, if anything more then a minimal crit chance would only be available on a build with dex, that would just push people to use dex. Just like crits, cooldown reduction is just that good.
There will still be plenty of lower-than-6-second cooldown powers for players to use, even without any cooldown rating at all. What makes you think it was ever intended that players should be able to use powers that are intended to have long cooldowns to keep MSA feeding them energy constantly?
Yes, MSA builds will get taken down a notch... and they should; another case where one option is drastically better than the rest due to stat inflation.
Yes, I want to keep the specific effectiveness that I specifically built for, with the understanding that I am paying an opportunity cost elsewhere. I certainly don't want the option to specialize getting removed in favor of making everyone's build more similar.
You'd prefer a nerf which effects the entire playerbase equally...
...but you're against a GLOBAL cooldown reduction fix that would affect the entire player base equally...
...and you're in favor of a restriction on the number of active offenses and active defenses that would only affect players that want to take multiple active offenses and active defenses?
Something doesn't add up there.
You would have to stack Intelligence exclusively; the opportunity cost would be all the other attributes that you then could not stack. You would be knockable, stunnable, have no healing bonus, no ranged or melee damage bonus, no recovery or endurance, and a minimum HP pool. You'd be surprised how quickly that AD rotater build drops when they get knocked and can't get their next AD up... if they have a tiny HP pool, they drop. There's also the fact that MD is only an invincibility button because it's supported by all those other things you can throw into your build when you don't have to throw everything into one stat to get the cooldown reduction needed to cycle ADs like that. Trust me, I play a character that doesn't have all that other stuff that you need, and MD just plain isn't an invincibility button for that character.
Currently, those typical min/max builds work so well because they're being injected with an easy source of massive cooldown reduction, meaning they get the ability to cycle AOs and ADs ALONG WITH all the other stuff they can take because they don't have to invest attributes or powers into getting shorter cooldowns. It's kind of like how dodge was... no one had to invest anything into dodge other than slapping dodge gear and mods into a slot, and then they could pile all sorts of other stuff on top of that. Make them have to pick between getting that cooldown reduction, or all that other stuff.
Wrong again. There are many ways to get a high performance build. Just like crits aren't the only way to do high damage, cooldown reduction isn't the only way to get good defense (should actually be obvious that that isn't the case). Players will not be forced to take Int, unless they want the benefits that Int specifically provides and are willing to give up other benefits in trade.
The reason you might think that "reduced cooldowns are best" is because you've gotten so used to having reduced cooldowns. Kind of like how people said "dodge is best" because they were so used to having that dodge gear for so long... now, you have people building without dodge much more commonly.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Fully agreed.
Then put some actual number in your post, my proposal was to have DR after 100% CD reduction which is enough of a change to CD reduction for anything but AD and AO. You only need 100% CD reduction to chain one AD after another. You can easily get that with hardly any CD reduction from gear.
Just how much INT do you think is needed for how much CD reduction, how much do you think gear should be nerfed. How will that stop having ADs active all the time anyway, and what is the viable alternative to chaining them? And how does that work out with builds using things like AOPM? What are viable alternatives to using int when int is the sole option for decent CD reduction on top of all its other perks?
And having a high performance build without crits is really really hard. As long as you are using powers that can crit you are losing out a lot when not using a few crit rating items. Or like it is now, just having ego surge active most of the time.
It looks like we mean something different when talking about a high performance build. For me that is taking a concept (powerset most of the time) or certain powers fitting a theme, then playstyle and role, and trying get the most out of it. For almost all my build having less then about 30% crit chance is just needlessly crippling my character, as far as I am concerned.
So then you agree with me that the rate of return from cooldown reduction needs to be lowered. Which begs the question... why are you arguing?
Arguing the specific numbers is pointless, since there's no way the devs are going to pluck an arbitrary number that one of us typed in a forum post and just slap that into the game.
So you're worried that the change will affect players differently on the assumption that there are some players who don't know how to lower cooldowns? So then what happens when they hop into zone, ask how to do it, and someone tells them? Oh look, now they'll be affected the same way.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Erm... why am I arguing what? This was even in my OP.
I thought the part we were arguing is if AD and AO needs to be changed or not, and exactly how a cooldown nerf would be implemented. Like I said quite a few times now, I would like to see a DR on anything past 100% cooldown reduction.
Yes, cycling Active Powers is likely against design intention.
No, Global CD reduction DR is not a good idea.
Yes, it should be fixed.
Solution:
Make them toggles FFS! Activate the power, and they are toggled on while other APs are disabled, then when they are de-activated they and any other APs get put on cooldown. Flag it so they can't be dropped or detoggled if you want, and viola.
Congratulations! You don't get the benefit of the power's duration durring cooldown, you don't get the duration of the power durring the shared cooldown of other powers, and you cannot possibly ever chain them, all without screwing over cooldown!
Yay!
That's what I was meaning.
An AD toggle would prevent the player from activating other AD toggles, and set them on cooldown when they de-activate, while AO toggles would do the same for AOs.
Active Powers would remain segregated by Offense/Defense. This would just prevent the chaining of ADs or AOs back to back, without using Nanobots. It wouldn't prevent having an AD and AO active at the same time.
the bigger issue isn't AD/AOs as much as cd reduction in general. Comparing the power of cd reduction to say, cost reduction or (laughs) max energy mods is prob even worse than comparing dodge rating to defense before dodge rating was nerfed.
Oh, and about making AO's multiplicative and unaffected by DR: could just make the base dmg boost start at a flat ~15-20%, and go from there if ur doing that. Obv, things like nimble mind and Imbue's inane Con scaling should be traded for flat increases (neither of the power sets that have those abilities are associated w/ Con or tanking by default, so I never understood this design choice anyways).. that is if we want to start reigning in the outliers.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
that "everything else" is currently broken due to the inflation of cooldown reduction. I know that this one specific thread wants to focus just on how that affects AO and AD, and that that mindset serves your own preferences in power usage very well, but that doesn't change the fact that the problem goes beyond just AO and AD.
Um... I'm gonna blow your mind... but your idea is pointless. Currently, when you active an AD or an AO, it already puts all other AO and AD on cooldown as well. Turning them into toggles wouldn't actually change anything since they would still function exactly the same way as they do now in regards to the effect that they have on gameplay.
I'm not really sure how you convinced yourself that your idea was creative when it really just aims to do the same thing that is currently live, just in a more convoluted way.
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the PWE Community Rules and Policies -Kaiserin
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Mind = Blown
Except not... :rolleyes:
Currently the powers put other ADs and AOs on cooldown immediately on activation. This means the power is cooling down while the effect is active, reducing the actual effective downtime. The goal is to have the cooldown happen after the duration of the effect completes, increasing downtime. So Masterful Dodge is up for 15s, then after it's done, it and all other ADs go on cooldown.
We know they can lockout access to specific powers while toggles are active, interestingly by putting them on cooldown (this is interesting, because it tells us cooldown is an available effect of toggles), and we know they can provide differing effects depending on which activation period it is (we know this because of Eye Beam and some non-toggle powers), so it is completely within the realm of reason to say it should be possible to lockout other ADs while one is active, then set those ADs to cooldown when the duration of the toggle completes, using the last activation period to put them on the long cooldown.
Additionally, the Active defense wouldn't start cooling down until the duration of the toggle was complete, meaning you wouldn't get the benefit of the power's duration durring the AD's cooldown or the shared cooldown, thus preventing chaining.
Of course, using active defense as an example. It would work the same way for Active offenses as well.
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the PWE Community Rules and Policies -Kaiserin
When do you get your yellow name?
Perhaps the devs did intentionally allow the shared cd to start upon activation and wouldn't change that aspect of it. Couldn't say for sure, but the global cd is a sticking point, regardless.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
Yes, in fact nothing is overpowered when you just look at it by itself. You have to start thinking about the way that things are combined, then you'll see where the problem is.
I'm not sure why you think anyone is saying to do that. After all, if we were asking for them to nerf everything that is useful, then we might as well just say "Nerf everything", since fact is... every power in the game is useful. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
If the problem comes from the combination of certain powers with CD reduction, then you must look at those combinations and determine "How do we break this combination without breaking the individual aspects?"
Many of the suggestions that Spinny has shot down actually accomplish the goal of fixing the effectiveness of Actives with CD reduction without impacting the rest of the game.
Another thing to rake into account as well... What is the main reason people stack CD reduction? The answer is actually pretty simple, and it's not "to get shorter cooldowns on everything", nor is it "Because it doesnt cost anything to take it". The real reason is primarily for Active cycling.
Spinny, you preach about how CD reduction and Dodge should have an opportunity cost. But you fail to acknowledge such costs already exist. If your stacking CD Reduction Mods, then you've spent a mod slot that may have been better spent on another mod type...
If you remove the reason for stacking CD reduction then the problem will diminish. People will stop stacking CD reduction if they feel it's less effective than that extra Def Mod or those extra points in their Primary or Secondary Stats...
You don't have to hit CD reduction itself with the nerf-bat to effectively nerf CD reduction. Without the major attraction for it, it becomes another typical "if you want to build that way" enhancement.
^ this right here is a fact. There's a lot of creative opinions in this thread, but this fact points to where the real problem is, and also to where the simplest most effective solution will be found.
They used facts to determine the dodge change.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
You act as if CD reduction is the only option there is. You ever stop and think that there are builds out there that don't even have CDs besides their Active Off/Def? Hell, I've got a couple builds that don't even have those cooldowns... CD reduction is only highly desirable because of Actives and a few very select powers. Don't even try to claim otherwise. There really aren't that many worthwhile powers in the game with CDs and many of the ones that are there have short CDs to begin with. Calling a foul on shortening already short CDs is redundant at best.
That is an opinion not a fact. The "Fact" is CD reduction is only in high demand for a few select powers, and Actives happen to be at the top of that list. You change how viable CD reduction is on Actives alone and you'll see a huge drop in CD reduction demand. Yes it may still be popular for the other handful of powers on that list but it won't be as wide spread anymore.
BTW... this is starting to turn out a lot like how I had predicted it might when mods were first added... First people find the "Optimal mods" then those mods become all that's used.. "NERF" gets cried a million times before finally one of them gets nerfed... after that begins a snowball effect of "Fix this by nerfing the effect of this mod type" until eventually it's all worthless and we are right back where we were before with the old gear.
Stop trying to nerf everything with blanket solutions. Target the actual problems. The actual problem here is that Actives can have their CDs reduced to practically nothing. Remove that capability and then I promise you, you'll see a huge decline in CD reduction usage.
Odds are Cost Discount might be the next most valuable mod type once CD reduction is less desirable... and issues like this will come up again once that happens... the next big complaint will be "Force Cascade can be spammed full charge with Cost Discount & Max Energy mods"...
Seriously, stop and think things through before you cry for a blanket nerf. Hell... regardless of how they fix this issue the "issue" will move on to the next mod type until they effectively nerf and destroy every stat and bonus in the game all in the name of "balance" when it was actually quite balanced to begin with... the only imbalance came from certain powers... rather than nerfing another stat/bonus they need to just fix the real issue here which is how this bonus relates to certain powers.
And by the way, I use a build that revolves around powers with short cooldowns. Getting those powers on as short of a CD as possible makes the build work best for what I use it for, so asking for a nerf to CD's would hurt me more than most people. I still think cooldown reduction should be nerfed. I just wanted to leave my 2 cents in this thread since you seemed to want to say that other utilities were as useful as cooldown reduction in most cases. All of my builds have a near-infinite energy supply and have more than enough energy to use all of their energy-heavy attacks - there's no point in wasting mods on cost reduction or energy management when I can just reduce the cooldowns on my active powers. And oh, look. There is another reason I think cooldowns should be nerfed. The current meta with active power cycling can be pretty broken in my opinion.
Some of you don't agree with me, and I'm fine with that. I don't care how you all want to fix/change it, just leaving my opinion here.
There are many attacks and heals w/ cds that are worthwhile to reduce, though. Just picking ones from my 27 toons: BCR, UR, Conviction, TK Maelstrom, Howl, Eruption, Hex of Suffering, Particle Smash, Fire All Weapons, Gas Arrow, Fire Snake, Strafe Run, Rocket, Torrent of Arrows, Force Geyser, Evasive Maneuvers, Force Detonation, Thunderstrike, Rising Knee, Thunderclap, Summon Shadows, Seismic Smash, Mental Storm, Palliate, Fissure, Ball of Lightning, Ego Storm, Energy Wave, Ice Burst, Flashfire, Rimefire, Res Serum. Prob missing some others, I imagine, and that's ofc not counting an AD like Resurgence or MD that I have at least one of on everyone.
Also doesn't help that many of them use MSA, and cd reduction means faster procs on it- a roundabout way of improving energy management as is.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
I disagree.
I understand you don't like gear playing as large a role in character building as it does, but I like it. It's another layer of consideration to take, and another point of customization. If done correctly.
There is no magic way to say that cooldown has become equivilant to Cost reduction, that's a build by build consideration when Excepting Active Powers and maybe celestial cleansing. GC can't do that by twinking cooldown reduction numbers alone. Also, no matter how much you nerf it, or dodge/defense for that matter, people -still- wont use Sentinel's broaches, meaning balance is still skewed and a chance for creating an actual opportunity cost is lost.
The fact is, sometimes cooldown is better, sometimes Cost is better, Sentinel's or growths are really not going to be better, and until APs are looked at none of that will matter, because it will be the best option.
Look at active powers, then maybe adjust the effects of Sentinel's broaches and Growth Amulets, and then things should shake out a lot better.
That was pretty much the point of why I made this thread. But without changing AD and AO powers you will not change that.
Like explained a number of times already, you need only 100% cooldown reduction to be able to chain one AD or AO after another. So just take your INT superstat, AOPM, vindicator/protector specs. You need to hardly any int, and cooldown reduction gear to get that 100%.
And this is also the reason why I asked for numbers at one point. Without looking at the actual numbers you will never see that only nerfing CD reduction gear will not stop AD/AO cycling.
Exactly the reason why they need to look at the impact of CD reduction on AD/AO specificly and not CD reduction as a whole.
There may be other powers that are heavily impacted by CD reduction, but the vast majority of them either have short CDs to begin with or have an effective CD of 0 or almost nothing... using Flowcyto's list here....
Of those powers, the following already have short CDs
Conviction, Howl, Torrent of Arrows, and possibly a few others
Have effective CDs at 0 or close to:
BCR, Eruption, Hex of Suffering, Gas Arrow, Fire Snake, Strafing Run, Summon Shadows, Mental Storm, Fissure, Ball Lightning, Flashfire
the rest may fall into one of the above 2 categories or be outliers like Actives... (I don't personally use almost half of the listed powers)
There are only a handful of those I listed that I can see a reason to stack CD reduction on. Most noticeable of them being Fire Snake... I can see the allure of summoning multiple firesnakes at once, though I'm fairly certain summoning a second will dismiss the first. I know for a fact this is the case with Summon Shadows however... I actually tried stacking CD reduction on a character who uses that ability in attempt to get a second simultaneous summon... it failed.
Reducing CD on the majority of these powers is mostly redundant... your either reducing the CD of a power that deals damage throughout the full length of it's CD and does not stack with itself, or reducing a CD on a power that hardly had one to begin with. I know some of you may disagree with what I listed as "Short CD" but quite honestly, they are. There really arnt any CDs shorter than them in CO... so by that understanding, they are indeed "Short CDs" and making them shorter really wont impact much.
Sure you can argue till your blue in the face that "Shorter CDs means more energy from MSA" that doesn't change anything. MSA is not an overbearing reason to stack CD reduction. Most builds that take MSA either have CDs on their primary power selections, or can't benefit from any other EU and thus forced CDs into their build (Conviction spam for MSA procs is a forced CD no matter how you rationalize it)