A candid chat with the forum community.

kenpojujitsu3

Greetings heroes.

Before I continue, this is a long, long, and long winded post (one of the longest I've seen, and the longest I've done I think) so if you don't like those press back in your browser now and save yourself the time. There will be no tl;dr at the end. Some of what I want to say is going to prompt a reaction from some of you of "A dev should be telling us this." I'm not getting into who should say what. I'm going to tell you what I feel needs to be said. If you find it offensive hearing certain things from players rather than from devs please stop reading now. I'm not seeking to offend anyone in this post.

For those that have been on these boards for years, I probably need no introduction as this is a small forum and we're familiar with each other's handles at this point. For those that don't know me, I'm Kenpo, a Champions Online player since launch in 2009. Just a regular joe 'round these parts. I want to talk to you all about some recent goings on with the game. Before I get ahead of myself, let me preempt a few things in hopes of initially steering this chat in a productive direction.

1) Many of you know me through my guides, many of you have contacted me for build help on the forums and/or ingame, and several of you have 1 or more characters using an exact (or nigh exact) copy of one/some of my builds. I say this to illustrate that many of you have come to trust me over the years for having a reasonable grasp of the power mechanics and interactions in this game. I'm asking for some of that trust when I say some things later.

2) Many of you know I've spent countless hours testing stuff in the game I don't even like solely so I could help someone with it when they ask, many more hours creating guides and videos over the years to help this game's community, even more hours organizing and gathering builds from other players (shameless plug, links in sig) and still even more hours running a supergroup that was (and still is to a smaller degree) focused on helping newer players get acclimated to the game. I've recently also been holding giveaways in MC zone for various items with no strings attached. I say this to illustrate that I have and have always had this community's interests above my own. I'm asking some of you to consider this for things I'm going to say before you grab your pitchforks and try to virtually hang me. I'm not asking you to agree, just to consider where I'm coming from.

3) Several of you have made claims to attempt to support various positions such as "lifers don't spend money on the game", "people who spend money on the game agree with me", "I spent X amount of dollars, I'm a real customer so my opinions matter", "You guys don't factor in the low level experience". Etc. For starters, I've leveled more characters than many of you, possibly even most. Though I do enjoy speed leveling and trying to break my own person times the vast majority of my characters go through the game normally, and as several of my friends here will tell you. I'm nearly ALWAYS leveling toons. I don't play on my 40's exclusively. As to the notion that people who spend money are the ones with valid opinions and lifers don't spend money on the game...I direct you here and here. That's me, and only in the last month. I think I put more money into the game than many, possibly most, of you. I say all of this to say, speaking only for me, I DO get where many of you are coming from. I'm asking for a small measure of trust that I'm not some elitist LTSer who puts no money into the game, wants everything, forgets what it's like to play through Westside in the low levels and is only thinking of himself.

Now to what I really want to say for those who have endured thus far.

The Devs are listening to you. Many of you have been all over various threads saying things that have been said for years. "The devs aren't listening", "the devs don't read the forums", etc. Some of the time, this may have been the case. Right now is not one of those times. Several of you have taken pot shots at some of "us" who chat with the devs on a fairly regular basis. This isn't entirely fair or cool for a number of reasons. For one, a lot of the people you're take shots at are the same ones several of you have gone to for build help, asked for information on costume pieces and drops, found out about console commands and macros from, asked to tell you about the game's lore and the PnP, depended on for generating the wiki and several guides you openly use, etc. It sucks that people who spend so much time doing things for the community, things that they don't have to, get attacked like that. The second reason it sucks is because a lot of your concerns, particularly the ones some of us don't agree with and many of us won't benefit from, we've directly brought to the devs attention when we have our chats. Some of the threads they've missed on their own, we've pointed out to them. Some things they overlooked considering, we've brought to the forefront. I'm not telling who is in these chats but I'll give some examples of what's been going on recently that everyone can see in patch notes for live and PTS.

A) Veteran Rewards now unlock immediately for Lifetime Subscribers. - I've been pushing for this forever. Several others have as well but I've been mentioning it every chance I've gotten in these chats. The odd part? It doesn't affect me at all. I'm at over 1400 days already. I have the stuff already. I've been pushing this for y'all not for me.

The dodge changes. - Could be a hell of a lot worse. We've been going back and forth with the devs providing lists of powers that needed reworks, test data on the numbers and actual examples in application while this stuff is being tweaked. Some of you complaining haven't even spent 5 seconds doing any of this and it bites that we're doing it for you all and getting attacked for it. I know for a fact that they could cripple dodge completely or flat out remove it from the game and nearly none of us in these chats would really be affected, we'd build around it like we have for years now when things change. But several of you lack the ability (you're playing ATs) or the skill (You're not skilled builders yet) to change and we've been going to bat for you on this for weeks making sure these changes are steered towards a viable path as opposed to the brokenly overpowerd state we have on live right now (Godmode in an easy game). We've been noting that some of the ATs would need a rework and providing information and examples of why. This is not an unknown or something that is being overlooked. I've been telling several of you for a while now the changes aren't going to kill your characters/concepts but you aren't listening...despite some of you asking me for build help. Some of us know just enough to help you when you ask but when we tell something you don't like will actually be fine you talk to us like we suddenly don't know squat. That...sucks. Can't speak for anyone else, but to me it sucks. Since I'm being open, it makes me not want to bother with some of the stuff I've been doing for ya'll in the open and behind the scenes.

C) Favor of the Champions, XP Boost, Resources Boost now stack to 999. - Someone pushed for this HARD last week and earlier this week. Devs listened, it's in the game.

D) Fixed damage absorb for the Invulnerability power on Lemurian Power Armors and Powered Suit become devices. Added invulnerability passive to Resistance Command Leader Robot become device, since it had no passive. Mummy become device: fixed issues related to stat scaling for its Pestilence passive. Both new and existing Doomlord and Celestial become devices have been raised from purple to gold quality. Halloween Treat Bags may now be used straight from your inventory. - Some of these are old issues, but we've got a dev team working with us for a change and they went to town on this.

E) Powerhouse: Added three regenerating supervillain dummies to the powerhouse. They are level 40/skull, and have distinct names. - Was suggested in the chats, several of you I've seen using them and talking about them in powerhouse chat and how helpful they are.

F) Added tail & wing size sliders to the tailor. The "Leg Length" slider now allows for slightly shorter legs. Female characters now have access to a second Beast Leg variant. This variant was previously restricted to NPCs. The following costume pieces now bounce again: Floating Brain, Droopy Antenna, Dual Droopy Antenna. - And numerous other costume changes were brought up in these chats. Someone even mad a mod to do some of this, showed it to the devs and the devs thought "that should really be in the game" and put some of it in there.

G) Power Armor: Unbreakable: Unbreakable now properly lasts its whole duration, even when it takes more damage than the shield can withstand. It is otherwise unchanged. - Directly brought up in chat. Fixed shortly thereafter.

And there's a ton more stuff I could list and a bunch of things ya'll have no clue about because it's not out there yet but the point is the devs are working and they are listening. The devs are reading the boards. The devs are responding to feedback and are bouncing this stuff off of some players rather than just throwing it out there. I know some of you are going to, or already have, take umbrage that the devs aren't all over the forums responding to every post. I'm not speaking for them but giving my take on part of the reason based on some of what I've heard at this point. It's simpler to read the forums, not add to the fires and just actually work on what is seen than to spend that time posting about it and getting immediately dogpiled for it when they could be working on the game instead. It's faster to do it in a chat with a few dozen dedicated players who can provide immediate feedback while they're working on something without personal attacks, CAPSLOCK OF JUSTICE or going off topic than it is to post on a forum and wait, and wait, and wait for people to get around to reading and responding and then sifting through the nonsense to get to the real issues. I've seen too many examples of someone posting something on the boards and the devs asking us "we're not sure what this person means, what's going on in that part of the game?". We look at the post they brought to us and tell them what the deal is, and they've responded "oh, yeah that's not intended adding that to the list" and it's gotten resolved. I repeat, the devs read this and asked for feedback from the players then ran with it and got the fixes done.

Hopefully this doesn't fall on deaf...eyes but seriously. We've got a small dev team that are trying to set the game in a better place both now and in the future. They're listening. They're looking at the forums. They're responding to the feedback and not just stonewalling us with "this is how it's going to be" like some of the past devs have done to disastrous result. Also, whether you guys appreciate it or not, you've got a really good group of core dedicated players pestering the devs on your behalf. From the ones who run lairs all the time, to the ones who level alts all the time to the ones who are just as casual as can be these people are working for ya'll to help make sure the changes coming down the pipe make sense for people at all ends of the power and leveling spectrums...and several of you are sitting here trying to burn all of this effort to ground, claiming everything is to nickle and dime you with no evidence, claiming all this effort is for selfish interests when it's from people who have nothing to gain, claiming to want to see the game flourish while not being willing to spend one iota of the effort the people you're tearing down are and doing nothing but spread misinformation and reposting rumors someone else started like they're facts.

To be blunt, get on PTS and help out or have a seat, have all the seats. That's my challenge to you gold subscribers and LTSers. I'm tired of watching people doing dirty work for you only for you to shovel the dirt in their face because they had the audacity to help with the foundation for your house when theirs are already built. For the silvers who want to and can't test on PTS, it sucks, I know. For what it's worth we've been going to bat for you trying to get you access to it as well...again fighting for something that doesn't directly affect us at all, a recurring theme.

Now, feel free to proceed and tell me what an awful person I am while I try and put some more builds together to share.

purin1

I can't really say much more than "I agree with everything you just posted."

I started playing in 2009, but I've only been subbed for 500 days since I tend to play off and on with huge breaks in between. In those 500 days I've only done what I can to support the game and its devs in the midst of all the doom posts. It most definitely sucks that we can pretty much see the game improving and being worked on before our very own eyes yet so many others can't accept the changes and be glad that a dev team is even responding.

Excellent post, Kenpo.

canadascott

It needs saying, and thanks Kenpo.

spinnytop

People won't stop complaining just because you tell them to, even if you are internet famous around here.

Just keep in mind, there are way way way more people who are happy about all the work you're putting in, way way way more people who know that things are on the up swing. The reason you don't see them as much as the complainers is because the happy people are actually playing the game and having fun.

You're never going to get as much praise as you are flak.. that's just how gaming goes. Get used to it.
/toughtalk

ps - do what you do because you know it will make a better game in the long run, not for the fame and adulation :P

theravenforce

I agree with the sentiments expressed by Kenpo.

I get the impression we have around 3-4 people working on CO directly and what they have done so far, for three people (for the sake of an example) is pretty damn impressive and in a relatively short time frame.

So yes, this did need to be said, whilst not everything has been easy to digest (these dodge changes for example) I believe they do deserve a lot of commendation, if we all think back to before CN were on the scene, it wasn't too great and I personally feel a lot less "abandoned" than I did before CN were on the scene, everything takes time to happen I guess.

All in All, great post Kenpo.

arblaque

Kenpo, I know you and others are very active in getting information to the dev team when possible and the community often. I appreciate the efforts by you and the others. I haven't play tested the new dodge avoidance changes yet been too busy irl right now. I honestly was happiest to see the 999 stacks changes in those pesky bank hog items. I have utilized the tail and wing sliders often also. One of the most important thing for anyone playing any MMO is the ability to adapt because things always change.

spinnytop

arblaque wrote: »

Kenpo, I know you and others are very active in getting information to the dev team when possible and the community often. I appreciate the efforts by you and the others. I haven't play tested the new dodge avoidance changes yet been too busy irl right now. I honestly was happiest to see the 999 stacks changes in those pesky bank hog items. I have utilized the tail and wing sliders often also. One of the most important thing for anyone playing any MMO is the ability to adapt because things always change.

The most important part of this thread is that you just reminded me that I have some bag space to go clear up :O

beldin

Thats the reason that i've started playing CO again after i have played maybe not more than 1-2 hours in the last year .. that it finally looks something more is happening than just Vehicles and Lockboxes.

And even if there are nerfs, at least there actually is something happening now, and thats much better than the staisis we had over the whole last year.

I only hope this will last for longer, and not just a short period of time.

guyhumual

I really like the changes we've seen to CO in the last few months. I suspect that a lot of the negative feedback we've seen as of late is a result of the game being stagnate for months last year. I suspect that if we see continued attention to the game as we've had in the last three months or so I doubt most of this negativity will stay. Having said that there's always going to be negative nellies, folks who will never be satisfied with the game, and for those interested in keeping things civil and respectful it would be best if we ignored such posts.

There's nothing wrong with complaining however, especially if find a bug or something isn't playing as it should, but placing blame or resorting to hyperbole really doesn't help keep discussions calm.

slumpywpg

It really bugs me when people do something out of (supposed) good will and then throw it in the faces of the people they helped when they disagree with their opinion. Seriously obnoxious. :mad:

anyway, wonderful, Cryptic is finally doing the bare minimum. Surely everyone should cease complaining and drop to their knees and bow at the feet of cryptic north for doing what they're paid to do?

:rolleyes:

Seriously, the devs don't need you to come here and make excuses for them. I'm glad the game is finally actually going somewhere but that does suddenly erase the years of neglect and abuse, and forgive me, if I'm not as optimistic that this will be a continuing trend for years to come. I also think it's a little ironic that you're complaining about complaining when it was said complaining and outrage that most likely made cryptic assign this modicum (and that's being generous) of dev attention. But you know, people should cut it out, because it totally achieves nothing! AMIRITE?

And this is coming from someone who isn't usually all that critical of the game/cryptic, but this thread was seriously grinding my gears. if you don't like the complaining, fine, fair enough, but it's much easier for you (yes, you) to ignore it than it is for people to contain their anger and frustration.

And in all honesty if it weren't for the drama this forum would most likely be dead, or dwindle down to the five people who are incapable of criticizing cryptic, patting eachother on the back.

thatcursedwolf

kenpojujitsu3 wrote: »

We've been noting that some of the ATs would need a rework and providing information and examples of why. This is not an unknown or something that is being overlooked.

I have access to FFs but some days I just like the plug and play of ATs so a big thank you for that on top of a general thank you for everything else.

Also, a thank you to the devs that are working on fixing old stuff and making new stuff.

kenpojujitsu3

slumpywpg wrote: »

It really bugs me when people do something out of (supposed) good will and then throw it in the faces of the people they helped when they disagree with their opinion. Seriously obnoxious. :mad:

Tough. Deal with it. Through mincing words with people who don't deserve the courtesy.

Surely everyone should cease complaining and drop to their knees and bow at the feet of cryptic north for doing what they're paid to do?

Nowhere was this said. Nowhere. Read what was written as opposed to putting your own spin on it as is all to common around here from people who do nothing, add nothing and want everything for nothing. See I can add stuff that wasn't said too.

biffsmackwell

slumpywpg wrote: »

I also think it's a little ironic that you're complaining about complaining when it was said complaining and outrage that most likely made cryptic assign this modicum (and that's being generous) of dev attention. But you know, people should cut it out, because it totally achieves nothing! AMIRITE?

And this is coming from someone who isn't usually all that critical of the game/cryptic, but this thread was seriously grinding my gears. if you don't like the complaining, fine, fair enough, but it's much easier for you (yes, you) to ignore it than it is for people to contain their anger and frustration.

I think the main thing to take away from this is that the developers are, in fact, listening to all of us, when people are saying that they don't. It's not saying "people shouldn't complain," rather it's more like "people should complain about the right stuff." Complaining that the developers aren't listening and aren't interested - that's just plain wrong. We've all seen evidence to the contrary.

jonsills

Oh, as long as you get into chats with the devs, could you please ask them to give Fluidity to the Fist AT when the changes come through? It does seem thematic with the concept, after all...

kenpojujitsu3

jonsills wrote: »

Oh, as long as you get into chats with the devs, could you please ask them to give Fluidity to the Fist AT when the changes come through? It does seem thematic with the concept, after all...

That's one of the exact things that was brought up several times by several people actually when we were talking about the ATs needing help with or without the dodge changes.

shadowzero66

I wouldn't worry too much about the people whining about the upcoming dodge changes. They've been the same few vocal people when it was announced on PTS, most of them saying the same things without much to back them them up and whose post histories reveal their opinions ought to be taken with a barrel of salt.

I'm not a big fan of Cryptic's... quality. But the outrage is a vicious cycle. Like any other game forum, there will always be angry posts. But Cryptic's historic lack of attention to this game has fueled it. People get more angry, and then devs are less likely to say something. And the less likely people get dev communication, the more angry people get. The bug stomping and balance fixes were long overdue (I suspect part of the outrage is due to complacency issues). It's a nice thing that might be a prelude to more attention to this game. Old habits and reputations aren't easy to shake off. Maybe they'll make Aura of Arcane Clarity and Medical Nanites less like joke passives to take for fun, maybe Fighting Claws will finally get an AoE attack, maybe Two Gun Mojo will be made comparable to the rest of the T0 powers, maybe Silvers will be able to buy Deeper Pockets, maybe the Nemesis Creator will get fixed, maybe we'll even get the Foundry for CO... but for now, I'll just grab some popcorn and enjoy the ride.

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lovehammer1

Wow. Long post.

But, i read it all. Kenpo, i too have been here since 2009. I too make and test builds all the time. I also care about this game and where it's headed (I'm still here, right) it has not been easy. All of the changes, all of expectations for the future... then Atari said, See ya!

And a whole new hope came and went when PWE got involved.

But, now here is something new yet again. Cryptic North! Fixes. Powers. Communication.
What? A whole new hope, for me at least. I understand the frustration because I've been here. People don't trust Cryptic. People have their reasons, people can be harsh.
But... there are a lot of us who are very grateful and happy for what's coming and the effort put forth in the past couple of months, weeks and days. I will admit, I'm still upset and not very happy about the might set suddenly losing 20% damage without any reason as to why!!

(Could you mention that to the devs? ERGGH) Anyway, thank you for doing what you do.
This game needs all the help it can. And you seem to be helping in a BIG WAY.

Thanks Again.

kenpojujitsu3

gradii wrote: »

the dodge changes need a hell of a lot more work. dodge specs need to be redone. and I don't care what awesome uberl33t builders can do with LR, 40% dodge boost is not enough for the rest of us.

I respect you kenpo, but before I can agree with the changes they must first be worth agreeing with, and not game breaking for most of the community.

Last I checked you haven't tested a single thing. That's what you said. So unless that's changed before commenting on what you think, test something so you can know. If you can't test then wait until you can because all you're doing is looking at numbers and guessing and talking down to people who have actual hands on experience like me. Please don't sit here and say "I respect you" as a follow-up to the sentence you wrote before that... Be better than that.

morigosa

I, for one, appreciate what's been going on; I can't see into the behind-the-scenes, and there are certainly things I'd love to see that aren't in-game (serpent skin texture for female hands, for example), but there's been enough writing on the wall that I recently purchased a subscription - for a game I hadn't previously spent any money on (and, had Cryptic North not started to actually do things, would never have spent money on).

As for the dodge/crit change - I did get on the PTS, and I did even make a comment on it, but mostly I sat back and let more knowledgeable people talk; 95% of what I wanted to say had already been said. And I'm glad to know that there are sensible people who are talking to the devs and can help sort out the wheat from the chaff.

Who knows, maybe I'll actually be online and paying attention the next time you give stuff away. Was very sad to read about people just selling the stuff.

biffsmackwell

Locked by request of thread starter.