Something must be Done

rtma

It's like a Epedemic how unblanced it is, seeing people running with ease thru Alerts (Mainly) with Quarry + 2 gun mojo is pretty much trivializing everything else, Tank, Support, Melee... what can you do?

bwdares

rtma wrote: »

It's like a Epedemic how unblanced it is, seeing people running with ease thru Alerts (Mainly) with Quarry + 2 gun mojo is pretty much trivializing everything else, Tank, Support, Melee... what can you do?

Enjoy the ride to a successful alert? Gets friends and run alerts together without random people?

Are we really complaining about succeeding now?

monaahiru

In case of most Smash alert, Epi+Pesti works as very similar as Fiery Form + Pyre or Electric Form + Sparkstorm or some similar power. Or, Lead Tempest. Works well.
But huge Knock sometime just do mess.

Tank, Melee, plz go to boss. Y U try to do mobs when U have squishy AoE-DPS in team.
I sometime want to scream when melee are going to touch unnecessary Mobs when doing recruiting drive thing for especially.

Support has no place in Smash unless AoED, AoPM or high level. Most of Smash alerts are supposed as DPS speed race. Something wrong about it?

Or, Level-Gating solves everything !
No lowbies in Smash ! Yeaaaah !!

joybuzzerx

rtma wrote: »

It's like a Epedemic how unblanced it is, seeing people running with ease thru Alerts (Mainly) with Quarry + 2 gun mojo is pretty much trivializing everything else, Tank, Support, Melee... what can you do?

Interresting, as I ran an alert with my Telekinetic Assault + PFF with two 2GM users (no idea on their passives) and the alert still failed O.O

Want it to end? Make retcons harder to get, so people don't pick what's consider the best picks then retcon out of it when they hit 40

I wouldn't say it's just 2GM + Quarry though.

That all said, trust me, if they changed 2GM for worse, you'd be back here complaining about a different power combo later. It's not that there aren't other good combo's, and really, physical damage maintain + quarry = go to town, it's that it's the combo considered the best even if it's by just a percentage.

Players have a tendency to flock towards the perceived best set, whether it really is or is and it's only noticable on a spread sheet, it doesn't matter.

roughbearmattach

Some suggestions:

1. If you don't like them, don't do alerts.

2. Make teams of friends and acquaintances before doing alerts.

3. Do missions instead of alerts.

forrksakesexco

Here's one for you...
Did a coupla smashes yesterday w my Night Warrior 2GM toon.
But 2GM involves y'know getting close to the baddy (Al Copop) and he has nasty attacks that could hurt so....
Pulled out the jolly old Sniper Rifle and started doing 3-6k+ hits. Held aggro for entire encounter but he never moved, not one step and he didn't attack me in any way. Thought SR had been nerfed or something or maybe the encounter is busted?
Tried it on Damoiselle Nocturne and she soon started giving me stick, so back to 2GM and blocking.

borg10f9

I've had people in alerts complain about:

My PA toon's Plasma Beam
My Fire Toon's Flash Fire, Conflagration
My Electric toon's Gigabolt/Lightning Storm
My Munitions Toon's Two Gun Mojo

Apparently these are all overpowered, since they work well and heavily contribute towards an alert victory.

Lord knows I am not an Uber Elite builder like some here. But I do know how to load up on End/Rec, Ego and Dex as needed to get the desired effect - which is completing the alert through damage output over a given period of time. Also known as DPS. It seems some people complain if you win too early. Weird.

Balanced is a weird idea for me, coming from a comics perspective. Not sure if the Justice League writers ever worried that Superman, Martian Manhunter, or Shazam were over powered, or that they unbalanced the team. How do you compensate for members that aren't Kryptonian?

Are the Avengers unbalanced having Thor and Hulk? What about the Defenders having Hulk, Silver Surfer, and Dr Strange team with Hellcat and Nighthawk? I don't think any team member was useless, but clearly some members are more effective than others.

When playing a Super Hero based game, do you want to feel equal and balanced, or do you want to feel Super? If you don't feel Super, should we a) force people who've spent time, energy, and virtual cash to become powerful to be scaled down to your level, >or< b) let powerful toons thrive, and let you strive towards that same level of effectiveness?

If I see somebody who just devastates a hard target, I don't think "he's too OP!"

I think "Wow, how'd he do that, and how can I learn to do that?"

If they complain about being too effective, I guess you're doing something right *




*assuming you're not cheating or exploiting.

joybuzzerx

borg10f9 wrote: »

I've had people in alerts complain about:

My PA toon's Plasma Beam
My Fire Toon's Flash Fire, Conflagration
My Electric toon's Gigabolt/Lightning Storm
My Munitions Toon's Two Gun Mojo

Apparently these are all overpowered, since they work well and heavily contribute towards an alert victory.

Exactly. I think 2GM is just an easy concept for people to get around/want, what have you, so you see it easy enough. Plus it just makes more noise.

And as another poster said in another thread, it's easy enough to build around. I've seen some mean Lightning users myself.

ajanus

My fault...I formally apologize for carrying bads and assorted ATs through Smash Alerts and granting them loads of unearned Experience.

I guess the only question is...would you like me to stop? :biggrin:

invinciblegirl

roughbearmattach wrote: »

Some suggestions:

1. If you don't like them, don't do alerts.

2. Make teams of friends and acquaintances before doing alerts.

3. Do missions instead of alerts.

Boom! Spot on! Also if the people you teamed with are lvl 40's with the right combo of buffs and equipment then yeah they gonna destroy everything. Nothing wrong with these powers.

jellycupsowbug

The point is that power imbalance kills the diversity of builds, and makes the game feel monotone as people flock to the few builds that work best. It also turns off many of the new players that haven't learned about the imbalances, but came in expecting a wide range of viable customization. It even turns off long time players, because there are fewer possibilities that are worth exploring.

jonsills

"Worth exploring"? So a character is only worth playing if you can steamroll everything in your path? Nothing except guaranteed victory is worth playing?

jellycupsowbug

The thread was started with pug team play in mind. When taking that into consideration, builds that make a player feel like dead weight are not worth pursuing. Long time players tend to know if a build concept is going to be this way before even attempting to implement it. If you want a piece of the action, your build must meet a certain standard of power. That standard tends to result in frequent victories.

So, sort of yes? How much yes depends on the particular player.

smoochan

This again?

Here's your solution to your problem:

Step 1: Are you in an alert with someone who you think is doing too much damage? If yes, proceed to step 2.

Step 2: Quit the alert.

Step 3: Que again.

Repeat as needed.


Until they actually get to really balancing the game mechanics, the above is actually your best option.

Edit- Alternative: Run an adventure pack, the action is all yours.

monaahiru

smoochan wrote: »

This again?

Here's your solution to your problem:

Step 1: Are you in an alert with someone who you think is doing too much damage? If yes, proceed to step 2.

Step 2: Quit the alert.

Step 3: Que again.

Repeat as needed.


Until they actually get to really balancing the game mechanics, the above is actually your best option.

Edit- Alternative: Run an adventure pack, the action is all yours.

Smoochan you genius!!!

roughbearmattach

jonsills wrote: »

"Worth exploring"? So a character is only worth playing if you can steamroll everything in your path? Nothing except guaranteed victory is worth playing?

I run into this sentiment a lot, Jon. One of the big reasons complain about the "lowbies in alerts" is that they aren't guaranteed a win. Yes, many players expect to succeed on everything the first time.

If your game is about farming rare drops, I guess that makes sense. It isn't the way I play.

Still, people have different expectations. Take Smoochan's advice. Keep trying till you get what you are looking for, or just team up with like-minded folks.

holloweaver

Oooh, long time I didn't read a rage-nerf thread...

bwdares wrote: »

Enjoy the ride to a successful alert? Gets friends and run alerts together without random people?

Are we really complaining about succeeding now?

This.
Just this.
Personally I enjoy every successful Alert and it's not like ranking matters in Alert rewards so... it's all good.

About the roles, this reminds me an old talk when the roles changed and some players were "disappointed" to meet supports who don't heal. But it's part of CO originality, good or bad it depends on how each one looks at it.
Also I would be very curious to watch these Epidemic+Quarry builds in endgame lairs. :cool:

joybuzzerx

jellycupsowbug wrote: »

The thread was started with pug team play in mind. When taking that into consideration, builds that make a player feel like dead weight are not worth pursuing. Long time players tend to know if a build concept is going to be this way before even attempting to implement it. If you want a piece of the action, your build must meet a certain standard of power. That standard tends to result in frequent victories.

So, sort of yes? How much yes depends on the particular player.

I get what you're saying, I ran an alert with someone with a well thought out, nicely written bio and they're powerset did not match their two pistols at all.

I was all o.O

But then, it's not that 2GM is the be all and end all, it's that it's good damage easy maintained.

1) Gunslinger
2) 2GM
6) Killer Instinct
8) Slotted Passive

Ride it till the build you really want to use is in a better build spot (which for them, might be level 40)

smoochan

jellycupsowbug wrote: »

The point is that power imbalance kills the diversity of builds, and makes the game feel monotone as people flock to the few builds that work best. It also turns off many of the new players that haven't learned about the imbalances, but came in expecting a wide range of viable customization. It even turns off long time players, because there are fewer possibilities that are worth exploring.

In PvE, all builds are viable. Hence, in PvE, all builds are worth exploring.

If anything, it's those "super builds" that are the ones that get boring quickly.

roughbearmattach

smoochan wrote: »

In PvE, all builds are viable. Hence, in PvE, all builds are worth exploring.

If anything, it's those "super builds" that are the ones that get boring quickly.

Totally agree. The few times I try some dueling, I usually get beaten, badly.

On the other hand, in solo PvE, I have a fun, challenging time on Elite--I don't always win every mission on the first try.

Also, my toons always contribute to teams in PUG play, teamups, and so forth.

Many people only have fun by always winning. That's great for them.

ajanus

roughbearmattach wrote: »

Totally agree. The few times I try some dueling, I usually get beaten, badly.

On the other hand, in solo PvE, I have a fun, challenging time on Elite--I don't always win every mission on the first try.

Also, my toons always contribute to teams in PUG play, teamups, and so forth.

Many people only have fun by always winning. That's great for them.

That's where some of us differ from each other. Making toons to "contribute" to the team. I don't want to contribute anything...I want to "carry" the team. I have done way too much testing, experimenting, and retconning to merely contribute anything anymore. I make them to win.

I also enjoy Alerts. I have a few friends I run with that also enjoy Alerts. So we run them...a lot. None of us enjoy losing the Alerts...at all. If I run 30 straight Smashes, I expect 30 successes. However, we can't control other people's builds...like the guy that thinks he can dps as a Behemoth...or the guy that thinks he needs to pull EVERYTHING in Recruiting Drives. We DO, however, have complete control over our own toons. So we go above and beyond what we feel is necessary to win in order to make up for anyone else that might be a bit ignorant with their own toons.

Here is a bit of how I see these Alerts:

1. Each boss has X Hit Points
2. Each Alert has Y time limit
3. That means that each team MUST have Z dps to complete it
4. Dividing that between 5, each toon is expected to have or contribute to at least 20% Z dps.
5. My goal for my own dpsers is to reach Z dps.

That is just the way I see it. :biggrin:

borg10f9

ajanus wrote: »

That's where some of us differ from each other. Making toons to "contribute" to the team. I don't want to contribute anything...I want to "carry" the team. I have done way too much testing, experimenting, and retconning to merely contribute anything anymore. I make them to win.

I also enjoy Alerts. I have a few friends I run with that also enjoy Alerts. So we run them...a lot. None of us enjoy losing the Alerts...at all. If I run 30 straight Smashes, I expect 30 successes. However, we can't control other people's builds...like the guy that thinks he can dps as a Behemoth...or the guy that thinks he needs to pull EVERYTHING in Recruiting Drives. We DO, however, have complete control over our own toons. So we go above and beyond what we feel is necessary to win in order to make up for anyone else that might be a bit ignorant with their own toons.

Here is a bit of how I see these Alerts:

1. Each boss has X Hit Points
2. Each Alert has Y time limit
3. That means that each team MUST have Z dps to complete it
4. Dividing that between 5, each toon is expected to have or contribute to at least 20% Z dps.
5. My goal for my own dpsers is to reach Z dps.

That is just the way I see it. :biggrin:

This is true. It's been my approach. No matter what level my toon is on, I want to do as much damage as I can - knowing that most level 12's aren't going to have much damage. I want to make up that difference, so we can win.

I'm not angry when we lose... I'm usually mildly shocked. I expected more.

I'm always looking for some way to improve my toons. So, I was VERY happy that, when searching the AH, I found a <level 13 Legion's Gloves of Offense> for 200 G. I loaded it up with 2 End Enhancement 7's and 2 Growth Amulet 7's, then equipped my level 15 power armor toon with it (the rest are Nemesis Heirloom gear). Plasma Beam with the burn mod is serious now. Now in Alerts, it feels like I've got a level 40. A few hours of serious leveling later, and it's up to level 30, seldom losing an alert. :biggrin:.


Oh, btw nice quote there. George Carlin said that one a lot, one of my favs.

chalupaoffury

I really hope devs continue on their trend of ignoring these threads and don't nerf 2gm. My infernal toon, electric toon, tk blader, and cascader have no problems stripping threat off of one of these builds and holding it. Quarry and 2gm is good because it's also survivable. There's nothing overpowered about considering defense in a build, especially considering some of the people that tend to populate alerts right now, lmfao.

OP, I'm not implying that you're one of these people, so don't think that. But most of the people who've complained about my damage output in alerts are either A: archetypes, which aren't optimized like a freeform can be. B: REALLY bad at the game, and I had to throw that huge nuke at everything just to stay alive. Or C: annoyed that they can't build in a similar manner, and taking it out on people who took time to make their build efficient.

I really don't get the idea of complaining about people who picked up the alert and ran with it. I've had tanks legitimately get mad at my dps/tank hybrid, because he had a shield over his head and I had a bullet over mine. Like, legitimately, in the next alert: He sat at the entrance, because I was on the team, and it wasn't fair. No amount of "I'M BUILT FOR THIS" helped.

If it makes you feel any better, it sucks pretty hard to be on the other side of this topic, too. Don't build efficient, you die. Build too efficient, and people quit team or intentionally leech to spite you.

smoochan

chalupaoffury wrote: »

[...] But most of the people who've complained about my damage output in alerts are either A: archetypes, which aren't optimized like a freeform can be. B: REALLY bad at the game, and I had to throw that huge nuke at everything just to stay alive. Or C: annoyed that they can't build in a similar manner, and taking it out on people who took time to make their build efficient.
[...]

I think they're all probably Handed wins so often that losing isn't even a concern anymore.

I think it would be neat if all the well built people would just take a week or two off from doing alerts. Then, after people start failing smashes left and right, they might complain less.

I mean... the logic here is really simple, and it works out brilliantly.


X = Time alert lasts
Y = DPS that coolguy puts out
Z = amount of enjoyment had by non-coolguys


If I were to graph it, we would see that as Y increases, Z decreases. However, we would see that X also decreases at the same rate that Y increases. This means that when you account for ( X / Z ), or "enjoyment per second", the amount stays constant. Those guys may be causing others to enjoy the alert less, but they're also shortening the duration of the alert proportionately to the amount that they're lessening that enjoyment.

In the end, nobody actually loses out, and all the complaining is really because the people involved aren't doing the math.

rtma

I appreciate the positive feedback guys, thanks.

flamingbunnyman

chalupaoffury wrote: »

If it makes you feel any better, it sucks pretty hard to be on the other side of this topic, too. Don't build efficient, you die. Build too efficient, and people quit team or intentionally leech to spite you.

That's sad. If I see someone doing better than me, my response is to try to one-up them. I never say anything about it, but my goal in an alert is typically to keep the boss punching me. If I see him targeting someone else, I do everything I can to take aggro back.

It's funny when I run into someone who plays the same way. I can tell by how the boss acts when I've got an aggro tug-o-war on my hands. :biggrin:

jarfaru

I really don't understand people like the op. Your upset that someone made a heroic build in a super hero mmo. I would never have a problem teaming up with players that know what they are doing. I could probably learn from them. These types of threads and the people that make them are strange to me. I will never understand this.

gamehobo

"please sir, may I have some more" ~Oliver

roughbearmattach

smoochan wrote: »

In the end, nobody actually loses out, and all the complaining is really because the people involved aren't doing the math.

Nice. I tell my students this all the time.

chalupaoffury

smoochan wrote: »

I think it would be neat if all the well built people would just take a week or two off from doing alerts. Then, after people start failing smashes left and right, they might complain less.

I'm actually on day 4 of that right now. I run with my sg, and that's it. Taking a bit of time because this behavior is actively bugging me. I pop in the queue to help lowbies level and make the mission easy, I shouldn't have to worry about being attacked for it. It straight out amuses me that people will defend level 6's in alerts, and attack the strong 40s that make it possible for that group to win.

jonsills

Yeah, I have to confess, after spending some time in contemplation, I'm still confused about this concept of putting out "too much" damage in an Alert. The drops aren't dependent on damage done; they're either standardized or completely random. The points are no longer awarded based on damage; instead, that list of names at the end is in alphabetical order, and everyone has the same number of points (which, let's be honest with ourselves, are about as meaningful as the points on Whose Line Is It Anyway).

You want to come into my alert with some ridiculously optimized uberbuild and kill everything in sight while I'm still trying to target? Go for it! Please, make my life easier. I'm only in the Alert to get a quick experience boost anyway, because I'm either close to leveling or my lowbie needs that XP Boost. (And yes, no matter what level or build I'm using, I'm doing my level best to carry the Alert, even if it's completely hopeless. Standing back doing nothing is not heroic.)

chaelk

and for those times like yesterday when I'm in a timed alert (recuitment drive)with Level 8,10,13,14

with 2GM I had aggro and was doing the damage.
we won't mention the 8,13,14 (not the same ones) who I got in 2 consecutive alerts, who just stood at the start of the dock and waited for everyone else to attack. The first time I attacked, the second time I saw their names I waited with them until they ran in. (the fifth person left the first time and tried doing damage the second time)


finished levelling that one, started trying my fire/ice one. absolutely crap damage, reverse the results. I was glad for the person with 2GM and the next alert the one with Lightning arc.

The difference between the two groups of lowbies, the first group spread out and made it hard for aoe targeting by Boss, when one got aggro, another helped kill that mob. Once they were all gone, they came over and spread out aroudn the Boss who I still had aggro on. I was flying so no kite problems.

second group- stand and wait, run in, do EB, stand and wait. I feel sorry for the level 19 in the second run, who was also trying to damage, we just kept getting aggro and getting one shotted, while the other 3 stood around.

---

as for wanting to play builds that always succeeed.
You probably wouldn't want to play my L33, mentalist which uses the Dot's from the new powers. IT in no way, shape or form steamrollers anything. It nickle and dimes everything.
It is fun to play as you hope the dots kill things fast enough(fire, back off, fire, rinse and repeat)

or my healer, which is completely useless for damage. L40 now.
my darkness/MA slow damage but stays alive.
any of my straight support ones. Ranged support is designed for damage/buff/debuff.

STILL trying to get a melee thumper to be anything apart from sloooooowwww

ajanus

chaelk wrote: »

and for those times like yesterday when I'm in a timed alert (recuitment drive)with Level 8,10,13,14

with 2GM I had aggro and was doing the damage.
we won't mention the 8,13,14 (not the same ones) who I got in 2 consecutive alerts, who just stood at the start of the dock and waited for everyone else to attack. The first time I attacked, the second time I saw their names I waited with them until they ran in. (the fifth person left the first time and tried doing damage the second time)


finished levelling that one, started trying my fire/ice one. absolutely crap damage, reverse the results. I was glad for the person with 2GM and the next alert the one with Lightning arc.

The difference between the two groups of lowbies, the first group spread out and made it hard for aoe targeting by Boss, when one got aggro, another helped kill that mob. Once they were all gone, they came over and spread out aroudn the Boss who I still had aggro on. I was flying so no kite problems.

second group- stand and wait, run in, do EB, stand and wait. I feel sorry for the level 19 in the second run, who was also trying to damage, we just kept getting aggro and getting one shotted, while the other 3 stood around.

---

as for wanting to play builds that always succeeed.
You probably wouldn't want to play my L33, mentalist which uses the Dot's from the new powers. IT in no way, shape or form steamrollers anything. It nickle and dimes everything.
It is fun to play as you hope the dots kill things fast enough(fire, back off, fire, rinse and repeat)

or my healer, which is completely useless for damage. L40 now.
my darkness/MA slow damage but stays alive.
any of my straight support ones. Ranged support is designed for damage/buff/debuff.

STILL trying to get a melee thumper to be anything apart from sloooooowwww

I would agree to some kind of "participation" bar in order to get any credit at all for Alerts. Those guys that just stand in the starter area really give me the :mad:

However, most of my toons can indeed cover those guys too...we probably ran 100 Alerts yesterday with 100% success. Probably half of those Alerts we did with only 4 because of that random guy with loading issues or some guy that decided is was cool to just use his energy builder and fly around (yes, we paid attention and you know who you are...) All in all, though, was a good string of Alerts and that was with 2 of 5 "built" for it.

Not only that, but we have a little inside joke about getting "fake extra xp" if we can do the Alert before the halfway mark...and we got fake extra xp A LOT last night, even on the 4-man ones.

Here is a list of pros and cons for builds that we kept somewhat track of:

Pros:
1. 2GM Munitions Builds
2. Lightning Arc Electricity Builds
3. Fire Form Toxic Builds (I ran this :biggrin: )
4. Super Hot Bubble Support Builds - I don't know the @handle, but the toon name was Genesis...if you read the forums, I'd love a response from you...that streak of Alerts with your toon was amazing.
5. FF or AT Glacier Tanks that actually tanked things - we saw 1 or 2 this weekend that rocked it (we know they were good because we didn't hold agro the entire Alert)
6. Power Armor tank - might have been Invincible AT, did really well
7. Ego Blades - probably the most successful Melee build of the weekend
8. WotW Dual Blades - honorable mention to this build as well for Melee
9. Builds using Auras - we didn't need a lot of help on the dps, but any build that ran assorted Auras really made us :biggrin:

Cons:
1. Power Armor dps...lacking, even when I ran mine...still never failed, but man, was it a slap in the face to play.
2. Ice dps...just bleh.
3. Pretty much every tank not listed in the Pros go here...all in all, we saw maybe 5-6 different tanks that we "noticed" holding agro over us all weekend. (we both played dps)
4. Darkness builds - pretty much all of them
5. Lack of DoT Telepathy builds...I'd like to see more of them running around really.
6. AoPM dps holding agro. Since Hybrid doesn't reduce threat, it made this dps build a bit difficult to dump agro a lot of times, even with EM-SoM.
7. People that left the Alerts - you guys missed out on a crapload of xp

Most of the things in the Cons list should be addressed...and most of those powersets should be buffed...some of them need extensive buffing, so I know it isn't the players' faults. Overall, those were my notes this weekend in Alerts.

nepht

rtma wrote: »

It's like a Epedemic how unblanced it is, seeing people running with ease thru Alerts (Mainly) with Quarry + 2 gun mojo is pretty much trivializing everything else, Tank, Support, Melee... what can you do?

This isnt a trinity mmo . Its a super hero mmo. Some supers are more powerful than others. Does Batman Cry Cry when Superman flys in and saves his butt. Nope. He goes well done.

Freeforms are like this games omega level mutants or cosmic metahumans.

flyingfinn

But in CO it's Batman who swoops in and saves Supes butt. And then Supes has a nerd rage about Bat's Batarangs and Utilitybelt.

nepht

flyingfinn wrote: »

But in CO it's Batman who swoops in and saves Supes butt. And then Supes has a nerd rage about Bat's Batarangs and Utilitybelt.

DAMINT Finn stop making me LOL my coffee all over the place.

sinistro1978

flyingfinn wrote: »

But in CO it's Batman who swoops in and saves Supes butt. And then Supes has a nerd rage about Bat's Batarangs and Utilitybelt.

1. Batman had prep time
2. Batman is Batman

ajanus

flyingfinn wrote: »

But in CO it's Batman who swoops in and saves Supes butt. And then Supes has a nerd rage about Bat's Batarangs and Utilitybelt.

That's because Superman took Eye Beams...

jellycupsowbug

Power Armor dps is lacking? x3

I think it's just harder to build with. It's not the highest, but it's one of the best. You have to micro manage it though. With Dual Pistols, all you need is one button for trash, and one for bosses. The rest is defense. Infernal is about the same.