Debuffing in CO

gamehobo

Interrupts
Slows
Roots
Holds (stuns, paralyzes, incapacitates)
Remove Resistance
Remove Powers
Remove Heals
Remove Damage
Perception

- -

We all know they are for the most part useless in Champions Online unless they are damage dealing. I'm not going to try to convince you they are not..

But hypothetically.. IF you were a debuff playstyle and had to face a boss in a team. Can you brainstorm any mechanics from Champions Online or other games that would be useful AS DEBUFFS (not as damage) that would be in line with powers in Champions Online.


- -

I ask this as a Hail Mary because there has been a major swing of the pendulum with the new telepathic powers. They are no longer about debuffs, but instead are DPS (with a VERY intermittent debuff).

IF you had to use some debuffs in combat what you hope they did aid you in a fight? (And please don't just say "do more damage"). Apparently we need more people willing to think outside the box. The options I'm seeing right now I can't live with.

I like interrupts for bosses (they were pretty much made specifically for them) but it seems the CO dev team finds them too potent.. So... what else is there?

I am too upheaved at the moment to be able to think clearly.. so if you have ideas.. I truly hope to hear them because at the moment I'm facing certain character assassination with no other options.

gamehobo

Consulting with game designer friends of mine and they've offered suggestions.. note many of them have played CO in its original state:

Here are some Defensive Debuffs that came up in my emergency brainstorm:

• Neuter. Instead of interrupts, severely neuter the attack damage of an incoming attack. I like the idea of mitigation scaling with hold strength.
• Slow Attack Speed. Instead of interrupts, lengthen cast time of the power being used.. providing crucial extra seconds during schtick attacks.
• Slow Attack Frequency. Instead of interrupts lengthen the time between attacks by lengthening cool downs of your enemies (assuming NPC AI works schtick attacks with cooldowns as players do)
• Affect Targeting (this came from a designer who works on a game that doesn't use tab targeting..) dunno how effective this would be in CO where there is no "miss" chance perhaps then increasing dodge chance of person/people attacking a target. Technically making this a buff, not a debuff.

The idea here is to SLOW Damage per second from an enemy without destroying their ability to attack.


Offensive debuffs are pretty well established in CO but my friends came up with some cool ideas I'll share:

• Add penetration against a target
• Mitigate enemy defense to only DoT damage
• Lower enemy dodge chance

And I have always focused on the utility side of the game so I contribute these as well

• Move enemy equilibrium to 0 (already exists, i know)
• A Maintain to sap enemy energy (not health)
• Increase enemy energy cost by a percent

These don't all have to exist in telepathy but they show that there are MANY better options for debuffing than what is currently being offered in my honest opinion.

theravenforce

So do you mean like:

After a successful interrupt...the lockout would transform the interrupt function to "slow charge time" "slow movement"?

If so..multiple debuffs would have to be equal in a way to those amazing despair bomb creatures who slow time :biggrin:

colonelmarik

Nevermind, it was already mentioned...

gamehobo

Interrupt is ONE type of debuff. But I think it has been deemed overpowered (outside of melee).

So INSTEAD of interrupts, what if Shadow of Doubt was a huge debuff to enemy damage output for a short time. (long enough to make a shtick attack do about half as much damage).

What if Mental Leech INSTEAD of interrupting did a enegy sap to the enemy removing their ability to cast the strong attacks (mostly for PvP i'd assume).

- -

Devs are saying interrupts don't work.
I'm saying power lockouts don't work.

So lets brainstorm some debuffs (ways to affect your enemy's ability to fight) that we DO like.

colonelmarik wrote: »

Nevermind, it was already mentioned...

Which one was already mentioned? I'd like to know what players like and what they don't like

cyrone

gamehobo wrote: »

Consulting with game designer friends of mine and they've offered suggestions.. note many of them have played CO in its original state:

Here are some Defensive Debuffs that came up in my emergency brainstorm:

• Neuter. Instead of interrupts, severely neuter the attack damage of an incoming attack. I like the idea of mitigation scaling with hold strength.
• Slow Attack Speed. Instead of interrupts, lengthen cast time of the power being used.. providing crucial extra seconds during schtick attacks.
• Slow Attack Frequency. Instead of interrupts lengthen the time between attacks by lengthening cool downs of your enemies (assuming NPC AI works schtick attacks with cooldowns as players do)
• Affect Targeting (this came from a designer who works on a game that doesn't use tab targeting..) dunno how effective this would be in CO where there is no "miss" chance perhaps then increasing dodge chance of person/people attacking a target. Technically making this a buff, not a debuff.

The idea here is to SLOW Damage per second from an enemy without destroying their ability to attack.


Offensive debuffs are pretty well established in CO but my friends came up with some cool ideas I'll share:

• Add penetration against a target
• Mitigate enemy defense to only DoT damage
• Lower enemy dodge chance

And I have always focused on the utility side of the game so I contribute these as well

• Move enemy equilibrium to 0 (already exists, i know)
• A Maintain to sap enemy energy (not health)
• Increase enemy energy cost by a percent

These don't all have to exist in telepathy but they show that there are MANY better options for debuffing than what is currently being offered in my honest opinion.

I like all of these. The "Affect Targeting" already exists in the form of confuses and placate, which are total crap.

lokaidraxmartis

Ya know the thing super annoys me is that...once upon a time cryptic made another superhero game, and it had a bazillion debuffs, of various kinds were actually EFFECTIVE! they dont have to look to new sources for ideas...they had them all in CoH/V! and ya know what? THEY WORKED! amazingly well!

Accuracy Debuff: increases chance enemies to miss you entirely, and reduced damage slightly. Darkness types could stack this, and made most enemies " miss " when they attacked. Wasnt 100% sure fire and could get some spikes but it WORKED!

Flat Damage Debuff: again another debuff that was in coh/v and was fairly solid one, that worked!

Damage resistance Debuff: reduced bosses damage resistance, so you did more damage

ect ect

not gonna sit and list all the coh/v debuffs BUT most of them could easily be applied to this game, and for the most part it is what made CoH/V non-trinity set ups work. If you didnt have a healer, you stacked enough buffers/debuffers and it didnt matter a lick! since your group just didnt take enough damage to matter.

Wont even get started on how much i MISS my controller and dom from CoH/V and how NO game to date has been able to reproduce the amazing fun of those classes, and probably never will. I know i feel like i'm ranting on how good coh/v was but its not that it was some amazing game... but had ideas and concepts should have been in CO and just seem to be lacking entirely...and i cant figure out why!

pharmaco

The controller/dom/defender style debuffs cannot and will not work in CO for some significant reasons. And please understand that I am not trying to marginalize the controll/buff/debuff play style. Two of my favorite toons from CoX were my plant/nature troller, and my earth/storm troller. I'm just offering an explanation of the status quo according to my opinion.

First, the game is based around two all important mechanics. DPS and AoE. Every build that most players consider ok or better right now has at least 1 AoE, and is as maxed for DPS as the current role allows. While this laser like focus on only two aspects of combat has been around since beta, the focus narrowed even more with the advent of On Alert. The best teams in any of the smash alerts I have done melt the supporting mobs in a matter of seconds, and then it just required a mediocre tank to keep the boss' attention while the DPSers burned him/her down. It all happens so fast that controll and debuff seem kind of superfluous. Also, it seems that some of the controls/debuffs that are functional in the game (Devana Hawke's version of gas arrow) are way too powerful for lowly players to ever have access too.

Second, the free form aspect of CO has made soloing the order of the day, or endless smash alerts till your mind is torched and your brain leaks out of your ears. The net effect is that all "good" builds carry their buffs, debuffs, and healing in a nice little self contained box, which has little to no need to seek assistance from a pure support toon. Hell, my last 40 was an archer that I leveled from 1 to 40 in 22 hours (non contiguous) using the story content, and the occasional smash alert to keep up the xp buff. In the entire time I played that toon I never once encountered a problem or challenge where I thought, "Hey. Some control or a debuff or two would be nice right now."

So, in essence, CO has marginalized several play styles with the way the game is built. The only team that requires a healer is one that is filled with the weaker ATs. The only team that requires a buffer is one where the players did not maximize their DPS. Control is always going to feel useless in this game because the game itself was built with a different idea in mind. That idea was to have full freedom to choose your entire power set up, and that spawned a billion self contained heroes that don't need teams, support, tanking, healing, or anything else for that matter. And the problem is that adding viable controls, debuffs, healers, and such would require rebuilding CO from the first line of code on up.

As much as I liked the buffer play style, the CC master, or the debuff toon that made life for everyone so much easier, the fact is that CO had no room nor need for them from day one. That is why you don't get the same feel as CoX as related to... well... the same feel as CoX period, because the games were designed to do vastly different things.

It kind of sucks that several play styles were pretty much tossed out with the game's design, but until Cryptic revamps the entire way the game runs I do not believe that the control/buff/debuff styles have a chance of being even remotely viable. Again, this is just my opinion, but its the way I see it.

evillegacy1

pharmaco wrote: »

The controller/dom/defender style debuffs cannot and will not work in CO for some significant reasons. And please understand that I am not trying to marginalize the controll/buff/debuff play style. Two of my favorite toons from CoX were my plant/nature troller, and my earth/storm troller. I'm just offering an explanation of the status quo according to my opinion.

First, the game is based around two all important mechanics. DPS and AoE. Every build that most players consider ok or better right now has at least 1 AoE, and is as maxed for DPS as the current role allows. While this laser like focus on only two aspects of combat has been around since beta, the focus narrowed even more with the advent of On Alert. The best teams in any of the smash alerts I have done melt the supporting mobs in a matter of seconds, and then it just required a mediocre tank to keep the boss' attention while the DPSers burned him/her down. It all happens so fast that controll and debuff seem kind of superfluous. Also, it seems that some of the controls/debuffs that are functional in the game (Devana Hawke's version of gas arrow) are way too powerful for lowly players to ever have access too.

Second, the free form aspect of CO has made soloing the order of the day, or endless smash alerts till your mind is torched and your brain leaks out of your ears. The net effect is that all "good" builds carry their buffs, debuffs, and healing in a nice little self contained box, which has little to no need to seek assistance from a pure support toon. Hell, my last 40 was an archer that I leveled from 1 to 40 in 22 hours (non contiguous) using the story content, and the occasional smash alert to keep up the xp buff. In the entire time I played that toon I never once encountered a problem or challenge where I thought, "Hey. Some control or a debuff or two would be nice right now."

So, in essence, CO has marginalized several play styles with the way the game is built. The only team that requires a healer is one that is filled with the weaker ATs. The only team that requires a buffer is one where the players did not maximize their DPS. Control is always going to feel useless in this game because the game itself was built with a different idea in mind. That idea was to have full freedom to choose your entire power set up, and that spawned a billion self contained heroes that don't need teams, support, tanking, healing, or anything else for that matter. And the problem is that adding viable controls, debuffs, healers, and such would require rebuilding CO from the first line of code on up.

As much as I liked the buffer play style, the CC master, or the debuff toon that made life for everyone so much easier, the fact is that CO had no room nor need for them from day one. That is why you don't get the same feel as CoX as related to... well... the same feel as CoX period, because the games were designed to do vastly different things.

It kind of sucks that several play styles were pretty much tossed out with the game's design, but until Cryptic revamps the entire way the game runs I do not believe that the control/buff/debuff styles have a chance of being even remotely viable. Again, this is just my opinion, but its the way I see it.

This.

But if they somehow did controls/buffs/debuffs like COX than those same people would then be complaining that CO ripped of COX mechanics.


Plus having to depend on others just to be a super hero got kind of old. Even Batman, Hulk, Spiderman, Superman and the rest mostly soloed and didnt need buffs pr debuffs to defeat a foe. On occasion they teamed but not all the time everytime everyday to beat up something more powerful than a minion. They basically were written to stand on their own and team when it really really required it. IN COX it was evolution on the player and teaming aspect between MMO classics that required the holy trinity and this game where there is freedom to build your own and walk on your own with your own buffs.

Unfortunately, like COX basically spit on the solo playstyle, by making teaming get the fast track xp gain and boxed in of ATs with certain powers and stuff, is kind of what happened here for buffers when CO gave that freedom of powers and a nod to solo players to make toons that can fight/designed to fight on their own, like actual superheroes without worried about being penalized for soloing compared to teaming in xp gain rate.

xrazamax

There should be some type of powers that allow you to solo while debuffing. I think there already is a bit of that here and there, but there should be more. For example, Ice gives debuffs of sorts with chill, and ego weaponry with Thought Sever to reduce energy, so debuffs powers can be added even with soloing in mind.

How about a maintain power that drains energy, and each pulse has a chance to buff you. The buff can be whatever (reduced enegry cost for example) but a secondary power can "cash out" (similar to Empathic Amplification) on these buffs and deal extra damage. So you steal someone's energy and use it to increase your own damage output. That would both work to debuff and let you solo.

tangent90

lokaidraxmartis wrote: »

Damage resistance Debuff: reduced bosses damage resistance, so you did more damage

The debuffs in CoH wound up being overpowered because they were pretty common, debuffed by significant amounts (20-40 percent was not uncommon) and they stacked. If you had the right powersets on the team (rad, dark, time, etc.), the mobs were so slowed that they couldn't get off more than two attacks before they were dead, they couldn't hit you when did manage to get an attack off, and they melted immediately from all DR debuff and the defense debuffs that made PCs hit every time.

I doubt the CO designers wanted to replicate those design errors, so the debuffs in CO are relatively rare and severely underpowered compared to CoH. I agree that this design makes for more monotonous gameplay, but in the end it all boils down to DPS anyway.

clawsandeffect

tangent90 wrote: »

The debuffs in CoH wound up being overpowered because they were pretty common, debuffed by significant amounts (20-40 percent was not uncommon) and they stacked. If you had the right powersets on the team (rad, dark, time, etc.), the mobs were so slowed that they couldn't get off more than two attacks before they were dead, they couldn't hit you when did manage to get an attack off, and they melted immediately from all DR debuff and the defense debuffs that made PCs hit every time.

I doubt the CO designers wanted to replicate those design errors, so the debuffs in CO are relatively rare and severely underpowered compared to CoH. I agree that this design makes for more monotonous gameplay, but in the end it all boils down to DPS anyway.

All roads lead to DPS.

Whether it is pure DPS in the form this game takes, or the path CoH took doesn't seem to matter much.

The mechanics of both games are identical enough in one respect: To succeed, you must deal enough damage to the enemy to kill it before its damage output kills you.

I don't understand this game's mechanics well enough yet to speak for it, but CoH went about it by giving you multiple options in the form of debuffs (practically every powerset had some kind of debuff or status effect attached to it as a secondary effect).

1-You could herd enemies up into groups with a tank, while the remainder of the team healed or DPSed the mobs to death. (Classic trinity mechanic)

2-Lock everything down to the point that it was incapable of defending itself. Didn't matter how long it took to kill it, because it would never pose a threat to you.

3-Debuff everything into being about as dangerous as your average gerbil. It could swing at you all day and it didn't matter because it stood no chance of actually hurting you.

4-You could just bring overwhelming firepower and wipe the mobs out before they were even fully aware of your presence.

Toward the end of CoH's lifespan, the tactic deemed most efficient was a combination of 3 and 4. It got to the point where taking longer than 10 seconds to wipe out a group of +4 level enemies was called "slow". Most groups were vaporized in less than 5.

It kind of looks like the introduction of Archetypes here was sort of intended to give people playstyle options based on what the mix on a team happened to be. Doesn't appear to have worked based on what I've read so far.

jaybee37

tangent90 wrote: »

I doubt the CO designers wanted to replicate those design errors, so the debuffs in CO are relatively rare and severely underpowered compared to CoH.

I never saw them as design errors. I saw them as additional ways to be awesome. There were other ways to do most stuff, like stacking passive defenses, debuffs, or massive damage. Debuffs allowed support characters to truly come into their own, as opposed to the "healers" of the trinity structure.

Of course you could have part/all of all of the above (fire/dark/whatever troller, how I miss you), but that was what I found elegant about that system. It embraced more styles of play, including a crowd control and debuff system that could make you valuable to a team as a debuffer or crowd controller. It was flexible enough to adapt to multiple playstyles and builds, which was what I liked about it.

Most of the problem is that you just don't need that degree of debuffs in most content. I've seen unassisted DPS roll through Legendary enemies. Why finesse your way through when you can smash through everything like a tsunami?

gamehobo

clawsandeffect wrote: »

3-Debuff everything into being about as dangerous as your average gerbil. It could swing at you all day and it didn't matter because it stood no chance of actually hurting you.

kaneofchaos

Before I post my opinion, I haven't been on CO in like 5 months... So ya...

Percentile health and Mana debuffs are something I don't really see in CO. Things that damage you based on your maximum of either are also missing. There really is no hard counter for health stacking. I would like to see something like superfang from Raticate in CO, that punishes enemies that have far to much health. Or something that cuts your maximum by 25-50% for a moment. Of course that could be very powerful against certain NPCs... Too powerful.

I also like to see stat debuffs. Something to punish people for investing too heavily into 1 or 2 stats. It could be a temporary cut to their primary superstat, or even dropping it to zero for a moment. This might also have various levels of over-poweredness against some NPCs.

I like holds that punish you for breaking as well. If you break it from damages you don't get punished, but if you use Z or a hold break to do it, you take damage or become debuffed. If you can't tell I like PvP as all my suggestions have almost no effect or are extremely over powered against NPCs.

gamehobo

I need someone to post the mathematical equation for calculating debuffs.

My understanding was that a 100% offense debuff removes 50% of enemy damage and 200% offense debuff removes 33% (1/3) enemy damage..

Is this correct? And if so how much damage is 25% debuff to enemy damage? 12.5%?

Last i checked ego placate actually removed 10% of enemy damage.. but that can't be true if Ebon Sigils have a 56% debuff per sigil and there are 5 of them..

Is this a math problem and/or a tooltip problem?