Cryptic likes to gouge. You should see Neverwinter...the equivelant of 7.00 just to change your pants to something you like (appearance change + dyes). It would be 28.00 just to do a costume change.
Am I insane? Did the cost of living go up and I got left behind?
There are now data that tend to support the rumor, although said data hardly constitute confirmation.
Specifically, it looks like another shot at the Telepathy pass is up on Test, along with a couple of new powers. If these are announced as going Live before my deadline (three months from the day I posted it; now I just have to find it so I can remember when that was), I'll be back trying to stop the doomcrying again.
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
Why wait? You're already doing an adequate job by using a quote in your signature that stereotypes such "doomcriers" in the most negative way possible.
I'm actually missing the previous signature that's condescending and self-conceited.
Why wait? You're doing an adequate job by using a quote in your signature that stereotypes such "doomcriers" in the most negative way possible.
I'm actually missing the previous signature that's condescending and self-conceited.
Oh, no, you mistake my point. I'm mocking the self-entitled folks who think that because they spent some money on Zen once, that makes them better than the run-of-the-mill scum who inhabit the game. (There's a lot more of that going on in STO than here, thank Kirby...) And as you can see, I credited the person who came up with it - I just happened to agree with him.
As for the other being "condescending and self-conceited", I'll have to pass that along to Dr. Brin. I'm sure he'll find that amusing, and in its way alarming.
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
What about us self-entitled folks that actually pay a monthly subscription and buy Zen regularly when we get some with our subscription anyway? Are our concerns meaningless and mock-worthy as well?
Oh, no, you mistake my point. I'm mocking the self-entitled folks who think that because they spent some money on Zen once, that makes them better than the run-of-the-mill scum who inhabit the game. (There's a lot more of that going on in STO than here, thank Kirby...) And as you can see, I credited the person who came up with it - I just happened to agree with him.
Yeah, and the signature generally mocks any paying customer who has a complaint. I don't see any suggestion about being better than someone.
As for the other being "condescending and self-conceited", I'll have to pass that along to Dr. Brin. I'm sure he'll find that amusing, and in its way alarming.
Go right ahead. It wouldn't make me think any better of him or his self-proclaimed proteges either way.
Oh, no, you mistake my point. I'm mocking the self-entitled folks who think that because they spent some money on Zen once, that makes them better than the run-of-the-mill scum who inhabit the game. (There's a lot more of that going on in STO than here, thank Kirby...) And as you can see, I credited the person who came up with it - I just happened to agree with him.
As for the other being "condescending and self-conceited", I'll have to pass that along to Dr. Brin. I'm sure he'll find that amusing, and in its way alarming.
Does Dr. Brin study lazy executives being cheered on by freeloaders or something?
Does he work for Cryptic? If so, why doesn't he like money?
What about us self-entitled folks that actually pay a monthly subscription and buy Zen regularly when we get some with our subscription anyway? Are our concerns meaningless and mock-worthy as well?
Perhaps it's the result of over a decade working in retail, but that quote strikes me as the person who goes into McDonald's and buys a 99 cent cheeseburger, then demands a free drink, fries and desert because they're "a paying customer". And should the lowly cashier dare refuse them, they go on a rant about how "I pay your wage, and I want to talj to your manager! I'm going to get you fired!"
Now, there's a certain player who claims to have spent $500 on Zen in order to promote further development in their pet project. I make no claims about the veracity of the statement, nor do I have any reason to dispute it.
However, as I stated in another thread (that's old enough that I can't find it at the moment), a $300 Lifetime Sub gives Cryptic enough money to pay one dev for 6-7 hours work, based on the average wage of a programmer in the US in 2011. Scale that up to $500, and you get 10-12 man-hours of dev work. Of course, 100% of the money doesn't go to wages. Let's assume that 25% does - that's quite reasonable. That means that $500 pays ONE dev to work for 2-3 hours.
At those numbers, it takes $30,000 - or 2000 subscriptions - just to pay one dev's salary.
It doesn't matter how much you pay, you probably aren't the backbone of the company. Just because you bought Zen once doesn't mean you can make any sort of demands. Paying a sub or buying Zen (or both!) gives you more importance to the company, but unless you're spending literally thousands of dollars every month, you aren't making a big enough impact on their bottom line to make demands.
And that's why it's unreasonable to think that you should get everything you want, just because you're a paying customer. Here, or anywhere else.
_________________________________________________ @flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
Perhaps it's the result of over a decade working in retail, but that quote strikes me as the person who goes into McDonald's and buys a 99 cent cheeseburger, then demands a free drink, fries and desert because they're "a paying customer". And should the lowly cashier dare refuse them, they go on a rant about how "I pay your wage, and I want to talj to your manager! I'm going to get you fired!"
This is an unfair comparison, and it does nothing but to help enforce that stereotype. Furthermore, are you implying that anyone who has spent ZEN on the game is demanding extras by default just because they've spent a certain amount of ZEN? Come on.
I'm pretty sure you'd be hard-pressed to apply the same scenario for someone who's actually invested into a monthly-subscription, came across issues that are detrimental to their enjoyment of the game, only to not get the kind of customer support that a gold subscription promises. If that's the case then they'd have every right to be upset.
Now, there's a certain player who claims to have spent $500 on Zen in order to promote further development in their pet project. I make no claims about the veracity of the statement, nor do I have any reason to dispute it.
However, as I stated in another thread (that's old enough that I can't find it at the moment), a $300 Lifetime Sub gives Cryptic enough money to pay one dev for 6-7 hours work, based on the average wage of a programmer in the US in 2011. Scale that up to $500, and you get 10-12 man-hours of dev work. Of course, 100% of the money doesn't go to wages. Let's assume that 25% does - that's quite reasonable. That means that $500 pays ONE dev to work for 2-3 hours.
At those numbers, it takes $30,000 - or 2000 subscriptions - just to pay one dev's salary.
It doesn't matter how much you pay, you probably aren't the backbone of the company. Just because you bought Zen once doesn't mean you can make any sort of demands. Paying a sub or buying Zen (or both!) gives you more importance to the company, but unless you're spending literally thousands of dollars every month, you aren't making a big enough impact on their bottom line to make demands.
And that's why it's unreasonable to think that you should get everything you want, just because you're a paying customer. Here, or anywhere else.
Anyone who has spent an amount of money into the game contributes on some level.
Ironically this kind of breakdown reinforces what Jon was against all along with his intended use of the quote, and that's judging a player's importance based on the amount of money they've spent versus someone who's spent less or nothing at all.
This is an unfair comparison, and it does nothing but to help enforce that stereotype. Furthermore, are you implying that anyone who has spent ZEN on the game is demanding extras by default just because they've spent a certain amount of ZEN? Come on.
I'm not implying anything.
I'm stating outright that those who DO demand special treatment because they "spend money here", regardless of where "here" is, have a gross overestimation of their contribution to the company.
When you pay your subscription, it's spelled out what you're getting for your money. Same thing with Zen. If you make a payment expecting to get Gold account access and/or Zen, then you're doing it right, and I have no beef with you. If you expect your feet massaged and your loins annoited, as per the quote, or you think that some purchase entitles you to make demands of the devs' time, then you're mistaken. The latter is the only one that I'm making the comparison to, and there's nothing unfair about it. You paid for a service. You got said service. You demand something you didn't pay for. You aren't getting it.*
If you want to make demands of the devs' time, then buy their time. Contact Cryptic and/or PWE and negotiate a contract in which you pay their wages while they work on your project.
*That's the general "you", not in reference to anyone specific.
I'm pretty sure you'd be hard-pressed to apply the same scenario for someone who's actually invested into a monthly-subscription, came across issues that are detrimental to their enjoyment of the game, only to not get the kind of customer support that a gold subscription promises. If that's the case then they'd have every right to be upset.
To continue my above analogy, this person paid $5 for the cheeseburger combo, but didn't get their fries. Their purchase was supposed to include something that they didn't get; yes, they have every right to get upset.
Of course, that assumes that you're talking about something that IS included in the sub - like GM support, which is sadly lacking here. If you're talking about additions to the game, or bug fixes, or even server uptime, your subscription purchase does not promise any of this, and even includes a warning that the latter is not guaranteed.
Anyone who has spent an amount of money into the game contributes on some level.[/qoute]
True. But it doesn't matter how many cheeseburgers you buy, or whether or not you eat them. You bought cheeseburgers, you got cheeseburgers, you don't get a free item just because you ordered a lot of cheeseburgers. Especially when that item isn't even on the menu.
_________________________________________________ @flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
If you want to make demands of the devs' time, then buy their time. Contact Cryptic and/or PWE and negotiate a contract in which you pay their wages while they work on your project.
Let's talk about what the devs' "time" should be used for in the most layman of terms shall we?
All of which help to ensure paying player retention. Guess what? They're doing really poor in all three departments right now.
No one has to make special arrangements to "buy" devs' time to do all of these things, especially when devs working on other games do a much more stellar job without any special contractual arrangements between players and them.
To continue my above analogy, this person paid $5 for the cheeseburger combo, but didn't get their fries. Their purchase was supposed to include something that they didn't get; yes, they have every right to get upset.
Of course, that assumes that you're talking about something that IS included in the sub - like GM support, which is sadly lacking here. If you're talking about additions to the game, or bug fixes, or even server uptime, your subscription purchase does not promise any of this, and even includes a warning that the latter is not guaranteed.
Not guaranteed nor promised, but let's be realistic here shall we? MMORPGs need to grow. The product can't stagnate otherwise you're going to lose player retention and overall player interest. The product also has to be improved and maintained adequately in terms of bug fixes for one. Find me a MMO out there that's considered largely successful but at the same time has a poor, minimal amount and quality of content. Yeah, I thought so.
Players do expect that growth and improvement to happen when they invest a monthly-subscription fee, even if "on paper" the companies involved aren't obliged to do it. Saying that it's unreasonable for them to voice their discontent when it doesn't happen just because the companies aren't obliged to is just ridiculous. This isn't about asking for freebies. This isn't about asking for something that players "didn't pay for". This isn't about self-entitlement. This is just fundamental.
Anyone who has spent an amount of money into the game contributes on some level.
-snip-
Wouldn't this only apply to subscription fees since that money is labeled as being specifically for certain games? When buying Zen, PWE gets your money before that Zen is applied to any particular game. A 5000 Zen purchase is simply labeled and billed as a 5000 Zen purchase, not "5000 Zen towards CO, STO, Jade Dynasty, RaiderZ, etc".
Not trying to marginalize Zen purchases or the people who buy it, just don't see how the money spent on buying it would necessarily go towards the betterment of games PWE isn't actively promoting.
Wouldn't this only apply to subscription fees since that money is labeled as being specifically for certain games? When buying Zen, PWE gets your money before that Zen is applied to any particular game. A 5000 Zen purchase is simply labeled and billed as a 5000 Zen purchase, not "5000 Zen towards CO, STO, Jade Dynasty, RaiderZ, etc".
Not trying to marginalize Zen purchases or the people who buy it, just don't see how the money spent on buying it would necessarily go towards the betterment of games PWE isn't actively promoting.
I guess if they wanted to, they could track which game the ZEN is going to specifically to determine that the investment is being made for that particular game.
All of which help to ensure paying player retention. Guess what? They're doing really poor in all three departments right now.
No one has to make special arrangements to "buy" devs' time to do all of these things, especially when devs working on other games do a much more stellar job without any special contractual arrangements between players and them.
Not guaranteed nor promised, but let's be realistic here shall we? MMORPGs need to grow. The product can't stagnate otherwise you're going to lose player retention and overall player interest. The product also has to be improved and maintained adequately in terms of bug fixes for one. Find me a MMO out there that's considered largely successful but at the same time has a poor, minimal amount and quality of content. Yeah, I thought so.
Players do expect that growth and improvement to happen when they invest a monthly-subscription fee, even if "on paper" the companies involved aren't obliged to do it. Saying that it's unreasonable for them to voice their discontent when it doesn't happen just because the companies aren't obliged to is just ridiculous. This isn't about asking for freebies. This isn't about asking for something that players "didn't pay for". This isn't about self-entitlement. This is just fundamental.
I'm really not sure if I'm not being clear, or if you're deliberately talking about something different than I am.
I - and the quote in Jon's sig, as far as I can tell - am talking about people making specific demands of certain things that MUST be done, because they are paying customers, and they say so.
New content, bug fixes? I've only been here about 6 months, and I've seen both, and there's evidence on the PTS of more. Is it exactly what I want? No. And no matter what they put out, virtually no one will be able to answer that question "yes". I certainly would like to see more than the current rate of development.
I want, more than anything else in this game, to see the Foundry added. Do I think that, because I gave them $300 a few months ago, I'm entitled to demand it be added? No. That would be stupid. Will I be happy as a pig in **** if it happens? Hell, yes!
Am I going to post in EVERY thread on the forums telling the people involved that their thoughts and questions are irrelevant because they aren't the Foundry, and spam the forums with claims that it is the only possible thing the devs could work on that wouldn't be a waste of time? No, because that would make me a self-entitled prick.
There's a difference between having reasonable expectations, and acting like you own the company because you make one or two small purchases a month. And as I've said before in this thread, the former are reasonable people; the latter are flat out wrong.
_________________________________________________ @flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
I guess if they wanted to, they could track which game the ZEN is going to specifically to determine that the investment is being made for that particular game.
Sure.
Still I bet a lot of people are having wtf how did I miss that moments.
I did. WE TRANSFER EVERY TIME. From A to B. A has our actual money, B is whatever...oh dear.
I - and the quote in Jon's sig, as far as I can tell - am talking about people making specific demands of certain things that MUST be done, because they are paying customers, and they say so.
And my argument is that paying customers can make certain demands and complaints that are reasonable depending on what those demands and complaints are.
That quote generalizes anyone who has made some kind of investment into the game, and has a certain complaint, especially when it's valid, as some kind of self-entitled whiner who exaggerates their importance. That's my issue with it. Jon claims that it actually is supposed to make fun of people who exaggerate their importance over other less-contributing players, but I don't see it anywhere in that quote.
I'm stating outright that those who DO demand special treatment because they "spend money here", regardless of where "here" is, have a gross overestimation of their contribution to the company.
When you pay your subscription, it's spelled out what you're getting for your money. Same thing with Zen. If you make a payment expecting to get Gold account access and/or Zen, then you're doing it right, and I have no beef with you. If you expect your feet massaged and your loins annoited, as per the quote, or you think that some purchase entitles you to make demands of the devs' time, then you're mistaken. The latter is the only one that I'm making the comparison to, and there's nothing unfair about it. You paid for a service. You got said service. You demand something you didn't pay for. You aren't getting it.*
If you want to make demands of the devs' time, then buy their time. Contact Cryptic and/or PWE and negotiate a contract in which you pay their wages while they work on your project.
*That's the general "you", not in reference to anyone specific.
To continue my above analogy, this person paid $5 for the cheeseburger combo, but didn't get their fries. Their purchase was supposed to include something that they didn't get; yes, they have every right to get upset.
Of course, that assumes that you're talking about something that IS included in the sub - like GM support, which is sadly lacking here. If you're talking about additions to the game, or bug fixes, or even server uptime, your subscription purchase does not promise any of this, and even includes a warning that the latter is not guaranteed.
Anyone who has spent an amount of money into the game contributes on some level.[/qoute]
True. But it doesn't matter how many cheeseburgers you buy, or whether or not you eat them. You bought cheeseburgers, you got cheeseburgers, you don't get a free item just because you ordered a lot of cheeseburgers. Especially when that item isn't even on the menu.
Until reports for years promised unyielded results. We were asked for money and faith. We gave both. And here we sit years later with bupkiss.
You imply money was paid sight unseen and in a vacuum.
I guess if they wanted to, they could track which game the ZEN is going to specifically to determine that the investment is being made for that particular game.
I'm pretty sure they track where bought Zen goes I just don't think they consider any of that transferred Zen as investing equivalent dollar amounts into that game. They already have your money.
I'm pretty sure they track where bought Zen goes I just don't think they consider any of that transferred Zen as investing equivalent dollar amounts into that game. They already have your money.
I would expect that it would be somewhat important to do the tracking to see which game service it is that the paying player is using the ZEN for, to basically determine the value of that game service in terms of player interest, whether or not it's lucrative to keep it maintained and running.
You imply money was paid sight unseen and in a vacuum.
Please go back and read the first sentence you quoted from me. I'll even save you the time of looking for it, and type it again here.
I am not implying anything.
You did not pay for future services. You paid for access to the current services, at the time you made those payments. If you go to McDonald's and buy your 99 cent cheeseburger, and there's a sign saying that next month there will be a new McAwesomeBurger, and you come back next month to find that the McAwesomeBurger has been canceled, was your previous cheeseburger lessened? Was your previous purchase a tacit agreement that next month there would be something new for you?
Look, I'm not saying that Cryptic is doing everything right. I'm not saying that there are no unfulfilled promises, and that the game is perfect as is. I absolutely do not agree that the OP is correct* in that we should all just be positive, and everything will get better.
*Edit: Ignore this bit. For a moment I thought I was in the gotta have faith thread.
What I am saying is that Cryptic owes you nothing more than you paid for, and they are delivering what they owe you. If you feel that you aren't getting your money's worth, then it is your prerogative to stop paying for those services. It's silly to get what you paid for and demand more, because you don't think getting what you paid for was a good enough deal.
It's even more silly to keep giving them money if you feel like you've been repeatedly underwhelmed by the product. I get sick every time I eat at McDonald's. I don't keep going back hoping that one day their food magically gets better. I don't write letters to Head Office demanding that they start making their food to my specifications. I stop paying them for a product I don't want.
_________________________________________________ @flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
Wow, there's a lot of "reading into things" going on here.
FWIW, Bunnyman's analysis is closer to the case. The quote comes from a thread on STO, where people were waxing wroth because for the first few days of LoR there was a queue, and downtimes averaging about an hour a day as bugs were patched. Gold members did indeed get queue priority; there were those Silvers, though, pitching fits about the whole thing because they were "paying customers", and "deserved" more. They'd spent some money on Zen, you see, and that made them speshul. (Some of them even pulled out the claim that LTS players were "freeloading" because they only paid once...)
Then there was all the complaining about how the Romulans were implemented (you're not playing a bad guy, which seemed to upset some people, and they can't decide if you shouldn't be allowed to use your ally's ships, or if you should get them for free - they cost Dilithium). And again, while some of the complaints came from lifers, the majority came from Silvers claiming privilege because they bought Zen.
The apt comparison is would be to someone who went into McDonald's, bought a cheeseburger and a water, then demanded that it be brought to his table rather than him having to wait at the counter because "I'm a paying customer!"
I've probably spent about $200 or so on CO over time - does that mean I get to make demands about what costumes come next, or how the events are run (I gave up on that stupid race, and the Forum Malvanum never gets past round 7)?
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
Wow, there's a lot of "reading into things" going on here.
FWIW, Bunnyman's analysis is closer to the case. The quote comes from a thread on STO, where people were waxing wroth because for the first few days of LoR there was a queue, and downtimes averaging about an hour a day as bugs were patched. Gold members did indeed get queue priority; there were those Silvers, though, pitching fits about the whole thing because they were "paying customers", and "deserved" more. They'd spent some money on Zen, you see, and that made them speshul. (Some of them even pulled out the claim that LTS players were "freeloading" because they only paid once...)
Then there was all the complaining about how the Romulans were implemented (you're not playing a bad guy, which seemed to upset some people, and they can't decide if you shouldn't be allowed to use your ally's ships, or if you should get them for free - they cost Dilithium). And again, while some of the complaints came from lifers, the majority came from Silvers claiming privilege because they bought Zen.
Gee, I wondered why the context of the quote wasn't made absolutely clear. I guess it's all too much for a signature. :rolleyes:
Makes for a pretty poor signature if the intended message didn't get across immediately.
The apt comparison is would be to someone who went into McDonald's, bought a cheeseburger and a water, then demanded that it be brought to his table rather than him having to wait at the counter because "I'm a paying customer!"
I've probably spent about $200 or so on CO over time - does that mean I get to make demands about what costumes come next, or how the events are run (I gave up on that stupid race, and the Forum Malvanum never gets past round 7)?
This is not a good comparison. McDonald's provides fast food. Not an ongoing evolving electronic service.
Remember that time McDonald's was sacked with a lawsuit when they offered a subscription based eating fee promising more variety in the menu on a monthly basis?
And then they didn't follow through on the promises and people complained?
And then the right thinking people (who apparently have no concept of paying for a service) shouted down the hungry disappointed masses and saved the day for McD's?
No?
It's because the idea and the comparison are both patently absurd.
And if money is not relevant, what of your claim to have "spent about $200"?
And if money is not relevant, what of your claim to have "spent about $200"?
You really should have read the entire sentence. Yes, I spent money. No, that doesn't make me privileged; I shouldn't be given anything that isn't available to any other Silver, just because I dropped a little cash in the game from time to time. My opinions about what should be done have no more validity to the devs than anyone else's, and that's how it should be.
Anyway, I'm bored with rising to your bait. If you want to "win" this conversation, congratulations, you win.
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
You really should have read the entire sentence. Yes, I spent money. No, that doesn't make me privileged; I shouldn't be given anything that isn't available to any other Silver, just because I dropped a little cash in the game from time to time. My opinions about what should be done have no more validity to the devs than anyone else's, and that's how it should be.
I tend to disagree with some of the elements expressed here. I believe that the opinions of a businesses customers should have more validity than those who choose not to be customers of the business.
I believe that spending money on the game should give you access to more than those who have not spent money.
I think that having spent money on the game DOES make you privileged in the sense that it gives you access to things that are restricted to those that have spent money.
Having a privilege doesn't make you, or I for that matter, any better than anyone else, and neither does having the money to spend. But, when dealing with a for profit company, spending money on their service does qualify you for greater service, pribilege, whate have you, than those who opt to not spend money on the game.
BLAH BLAH BLAH PATENTLY ABSURD MCDONALDS METAPHOR COMPARING 99 CENTS TO $14.99 PLUS WHATEVER EXTRA SPENT ON ZEN! I PAID $500 ONCE SO THAT MAKES ME RIGHT. BLAH BLAH BLAH.
That's a very nice man made of straw you built there. Excuse me for actually expecting for the money I spend to go towards development on the game rather than wherever they're actually putting it. That's not expecting "freebies," that's expecting that they utilize their capital to support their product.
To use your McDonalds analogy, as piss poor as it is, I'm expecting them to buy new meat to make future sandwiches with rather than making them with old, rotting meat 5 months past its expiration date.
I like how your reinterpretation of my post includes this line:
I PAID $500 ONCE SO THAT MAKES ME RIGHT.
Considering that the person who paid $500 once and likes to bring it up over and over again is NOT me, nor did I ever claim it was, I can only assume you didn't read anything else I posted. Especially since you posted this:
Excuse me for actually expecting for the money I spend to go towards development on the game rather than wherever they're actually putting it. That's not expecting "freebies," that's expecting that they utilize their capital to support their product.
For what, the third time now, the specific people I was calling out are the ones who say that because they've paid money, they get to dictate exactly how the devs spend their time. You obviously feel this applies to you, since you're getting so defensive over it.
Yes, a portion of the subscription/Zen cost should go to development. But until you own the game, Cryptic gets to decide what goes into it. Not you.
And yes, some of the money you give them should be put towards future development. But you are not buying future development. You are buying access to the game NOW, as it currently stands.
Companies only understand one thing: The bottom line. If you give them money, that means that you like their product, and want them to continue as they are. If you stop giving them money, that means you don't like them any more.
IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE GAME, STOP TELLING THEM THAT YOU LIKE IT, THEN COMPLAINING THAT THEY'RE TAKING YOUR MONEY AND GIVING YOU A GAME YOU DON'T LIKE WHEN THEY GIVE YOU WHAT YOU ASKED FOR.
PWE doesn't give a **** what you say you want on the forums. They care about what makes them money. If you give them money, then as far as they're concerned, they're doing it right.
Anyways, I'm tired of repeating myself to people who are incapable of comprehending the language they claim to speak. If I return to this thread, it won't be on this topic.
_________________________________________________ @flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
So don't support the game you want to succeed. Let it rot on the vine and actually contribute to its eventual failure by unsubscribing. Kill the game.
Okay.
I suppose I'll put a bullet in the head of that cat I have that has an indeterminate number of years left because she was born with a condition that is actually slowly killing her.
You must be great at pep rallies. "Just let it DIE!"
So don't support the game you want to succeed. Let it rot on the vine and actually contribute to its eventual failure by unsubscribing. Kill the game.
Okay.
I suppose I'll put a bullet in the head of that cat I have that has an indeterminate number of years left because she was born with a condition that is actually slowly killing her.
You must be great at pep rallies. "Just let it DIE!"
*sigh* That didn't last long. But I really hate being misrepresented, and that's exactly what you're doing.
If you stop giving the company money, they have to choose to either cut off their own foot, or figure out what they're doing wrong and fix it. Hopefully, they'll choose the latter course.
If you continue giving them money, then they have no reason to think that they're doing anything wrong, and they won't change anything.
So choose: Keep paying them to stagnate and ruin the game, or take away their money, and hope that they realize that they're doing it wrong.
A different metaphor, one that maybe you will understand:
A parent has told their child to go clean their room. Instead of doing what they are told, the child pisses in the hallway. The parent gives the child a handful of candy and congratulates them.
So long as you keep giving money for developing the game in a way you don't like, you are the parent, and Cryptic is the child. Would you raise your kids like that?
_________________________________________________ @flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
Except that in business, loss of sales is death for the product. So in your metaphor, you would have me drown the child in the toilet or starve it to death rather than giving it a firm lecture (customer complaint).
So don't support the game you want to succeed. Let it rot on the vine and actually contribute to its eventual failure by unsubscribing. Kill the game.
Okay.
I suppose I'll put a bullet in the head of that cat I have that has an indeterminate number of years left because she was born with a condition that is actually slowly killing her.
You must be great at pep rallies. "Just let it DIE!"
Except that in business, loss of sales is death for the product. So in your metaphor, you would have me drown the child in the toilet or starve it to death rather than giving it a firm lecture (customer complaint).
You really are terrible at metaphors.
Fielding your own strawmen after accusing others of doing that very same thing? You're putting some serious effort into not trying to understand the argument.
No, in my metaphor, the child goes without dinner until he cleans up his mess.
No company run by sane individuals will willingly go bankrupt. If their product begins failing, then they try to turn it around so it becomes successful again.
Customer complaints mean nothing, unless there's a lawsuit attached. Companies have long since learned that most complaints are lodged by idiots who have no idea what they're talking about, or are just trying to get free stuff, so they ignore as many as they can, even the legitimate ones. So complain as much as you like, as long as you keep paying them, you are telling them that they're doing a good job.
_________________________________________________ @flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
Fielding your own strawmen after accusing others of doing that very same thing? You're putting some serious effort into not trying to understand the argument.
No, the argument simply doesn't make sense.
I want the product to have support. How does ensuring its eventual failure help it get support? What do you think happens to a product when it drops in sales, shieldtower? It doesn't just magically go on. It gets cancelled.
No, in my metaphor, the child goes without dinner until he cleans up his mess.
So, starvation then.
No company run by sane individuals will willingly go bankrupt. If their product begins failing, then they try to turn it around so it becomes successful again.
They have freaking STO and NWO! They aren't going to go bankrupt unless people stop subscribing to those as well, but they likely aren't as those get actual development.
I want the product to have support. How does ensuring its eventual failure help it get support? What do you think happens to a product when it drops in sales, shieldtower? It doesn't just magically go on. It gets cancelled.
Except bunnyman isn't advocating strangling it to death, just putting the squeeze on it. His entire point hinges upon Cryptic/PWE going with the idea of "our money flow isn't what it used to be, find out why and fix it" while your point hinges upon them skipping that step entirely and just turning everything off instead.
The MMO gaming industry isn't so binary that bunnyman's tactic would spell the death of a game. Game publisher/developers want your money and will do what is necessary to get it. That's entirely why CO went F2P two years ago. in before NCSoft is somehow the exception to that
A business that sees a downward trend in revenue will generally attempt to determine the cause and address it. Fieryrabbitdude :biggrin: is right.
If someone is buying the product as is there is little reason for the business types to think that person dislikes the current state of the product.
Its pretty rare for a business to automatically assume that a drop in revenue flow means that the product is not worth supporting. The cost of developing a new product is generally much greater than supporting an existing one. So, again in general, a product that is slipping will receive some sort of attention to return it to positive revenue flow.
Now, of course, a business may eventually come to the conclusion that a particular product is beyond salvage and cut it off. This is generally not a response to slipping revenue, but rather to repeated failure to respond to efforts to revive. "If at first you don't succeed, try try again," is a pretty solid description of how things go for businesses with a struggling product (at least until, "don't throw good money after bad," comes into play).
Note that most of the above is predicated on the assumption that the business has access to the resources to attempt the product turnaround. Small businesses without access to extensive credit lines may find themselves in a position of cutting their losses before mom and pop dig themselves into too deep of a hole.
I want the product to have support. How does ensuring its eventual failure help it get support?
Ask yourself that.
Paying them tells them you like the game as it is. If you think that the game is currently failing, then you are paying them to keep going towards failure.
_________________________________________________ @flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
NCSoft is the reason I inserted the word "sane" in what was going to be "No company willingly goes bankrupt".
And thank you to shieldtower and ashensnow for trying to give a clearer spin to what I've been trying to get across. My increasingly tired and frustrated brain is far from peak performance right now.
_________________________________________________ @flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
If any of those assertions were true, I'm pretty sure they would have worked to save it already. I've seen enough "I'm leaving" posts over the last six months to know that this game is hemorrhaging customers. The mere fact that it still gets ignored by Cryptic is evidence that it's going to go the canned route if it loses anymore.
If any of those assertions were true, I'm pretty sure they would have worked to save it already. I've seen enough "I'm leaving" posts over the last six months to know that this game is hemorrhaging customers. The mere fact that it still gets ignored by Cryptic is evidence that it's going to go the canned route if it loses anymore.
They have done such work. Those, "I'm leaving," posts have been around since launch. The game keeps getting adjusted in an, apparent, attempt to restore income.
WE don't know that playerbase shrinkage is being ignored. We have seen attempts to increase revenue and perhaps even interest in the game (even if I personally don't care for the form those efforts have taken) taking place during that time. It is certainly more than we saw during the lead up to STO's launch.
Any supposed ignoring of playerbase shrinkage is not evidence of an intention to can CO if it loses more players. There is no factual link between the two. The only thing I have heard regarding CO's current financial situation was a former CO dev, who now works on another Cryptic title, coming into a private chat channel and mentioning that the introduction of vehicles has been extremely successful for CO.
This game has been hemorrhaging customers for years and trailturtle very recently assured us multiple times that the game isn't in any danger of closing down.
Customer complaints mean nothing, unless there's a lawsuit attached. Companies have long since learned that most complaints are lodged by idiots who have no idea what they're talking about, or are just trying to get free stuff, so they ignore as many as they can, even the legitimate ones. So complain as much as you like, as long as you keep paying them, you are telling them that they're doing a good job.
That's kind of dismissive.
Customer complaints get can something done without the need of lawsuits. There are more than enough examples out there of companies making corrective actions due to customer complaints, even though they've already gotten their money. There also should be more than enough examples out there where companies treated their customers like whiny idiots who don't know any better and eventually tanked. One good example of such a company? Flagship Studios.
This game has been hemorrhaging customers for years and trailturtle very recently assured us multiple times that the game isn't in any danger of closing down.
Yeah that is what the COX devs said( what TT said) shortly before the end.
But yeah from what I hear, the lockboxes for all the dings against them is making a killing. Someone like them lockboxes and seems like it's the number one selling thing so far. So of course the logical thing would be to make more lockboxes to keep them selling.
It's not like new player subs are pouring in by the thousands, but still as fun as this game is, it boils down to business. A business' business is to make money.
Some customers will use the "Well then I'm leaving if they dont do such and such" as if that will change someone. Usually not, because 1) most of the time it's a mere bluff. 2) even if the company did cave and gave in to the I'm leaving demands, then that person will try it again and again, and no matter what the company does to please this person, they going to find something else to say "Well if they dont this or that I'm leaving." and while they busy tryingto please someone that cant be pleased, they are losing actual more customers that find the catering changes bootleg. And the person they are trying to keep will eventually leave any ways. Best thing to do, is let them leave. Now if it's a mass bunch of people actually leaving, that should raise some eyebrows. But one or two, if they are on their way out the door, really, 90% of the time they wouldnt bother announcing it trying to makea big spectacle out of it. They would have just done it already.
Some customers will use the "Well then I'm leaving if they dont do such and such" as if that will change someone. Usually not, because 1) most of the time it's a mere bluff. 2) even if the company did cave and gave in to the I'm leaving demands, then that person will try it again and again, and no matter what the company does to please this person, they going to find something else to say "Well if they dont this or that I'm leaving."
Except they did leave and they haven't come back.
and while they busy tryingto please someone that cant be pleased, they are losing actual more customers that find the catering changes bootleg. And the person they are trying to keep will eventually leave any ways. Best thing to do, is let them leave. Now if it's a mass bunch of people actually leaving, that should raise some eyebrows. But one or two, if they are on their way out the door, really, 90% of the time they wouldnt bother announcing it trying to makea big spectacle out of it. They would have just done it already.
You are what I like to call a sucker. A chump. You wrap your lips around the funnel and swallow whatever bull**** comes from the other side. You'll even smile when they tell you it's chocolate.
I'm beginning to think the cheerleader squad actually hates the game, as they keep telling everyone with legitimate complaints and concerns for the game to leave.
Especially in a free to play game, where a significant number of those players can actually INCREASE profits by stopping playing.
Really? How petty of you. I think it's frankly folks like you that help drive customers away with that kind of attitude. I think if you quit, profits would increase.
WE don't know that playerbase shrinkage is being ignored. We have seen attempts to increase revenue and perhaps even interest in the game (even if I personally don't care for the form those efforts have taken) taking place during that time. It is certainly more than we saw during the lead up to STO's launch.
What? Alerts? Vehicles? Temporary events with 15 minutes of content each? These are the efforts to revitalize the game to bring back customers? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Any supposed ignoring of playerbase shrinkage is not evidence of an intention to can CO if it loses more players. There is no factual link between the two. The only thing I have heard regarding CO's current financial situation was a former CO dev, who now works on another Cryptic title, coming into a private chat channel and mentioning that the introduction of vehicles has been extremely successful for CO.
Of course, he's a Cryptic employee. He's trying to sell you the vehicles.
This game has been hemorrhaging customers for years and trailturtle very recently assured us multiple times that the game isn't in any danger of closing down.
He's the community manager. It's his job to lie to us.
This game has been hemorrhaging customers for years and trailturtle very recently assured us multiple times that the game isn't in any danger of closing down.
as others have said, i like tt, he seems to be trying to do his job under adverse situations, but zillinger was far more upbeat on the future of coh right before the betrayal. so while i do not thing co is more likely to close down now than at any other point in its troubled history, His assurances really don't mean anything. if he can commit to us getting new, permanent content that is not another damned worthless money sucking piece of garbage vehicle, then i will be thrilled, but no dice so far. how about we start small and get a new costume set? haven't had one of them in months
Comments
Cryptic likes to gouge. You should see Neverwinter...the equivelant of 7.00 just to change your pants to something you like (appearance change + dyes). It would be 28.00 just to do a costume change.
Am I insane? Did the cost of living go up and I got left behind?
Specifically, it looks like another shot at the Telepathy pass is up on Test, along with a couple of new powers. If these are announced as going Live before my deadline (three months from the day I posted it; now I just have to find it so I can remember when that was), I'll be back trying to stop the doomcrying again.
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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Why wait? You're already doing an adequate job by using a quote in your signature that stereotypes such "doomcriers" in the most negative way possible.
I'm actually missing the previous signature that's condescending and self-conceited.
As for the other being "condescending and self-conceited", I'll have to pass that along to Dr. Brin. I'm sure he'll find that amusing, and in its way alarming.
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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Yeah, and the signature generally mocks any paying customer who has a complaint. I don't see any suggestion about being better than someone.
Go right ahead. It wouldn't make me think any better of him or his self-proclaimed proteges either way.
Does Dr. Brin study lazy executives being cheered on by freeloaders or something?
Does he work for Cryptic? If so, why doesn't he like money?
This is so confusing
Perhaps it's the result of over a decade working in retail, but that quote strikes me as the person who goes into McDonald's and buys a 99 cent cheeseburger, then demands a free drink, fries and desert because they're "a paying customer". And should the lowly cashier dare refuse them, they go on a rant about how "I pay your wage, and I want to talj to your manager! I'm going to get you fired!"
Now, there's a certain player who claims to have spent $500 on Zen in order to promote further development in their pet project. I make no claims about the veracity of the statement, nor do I have any reason to dispute it.
However, as I stated in another thread (that's old enough that I can't find it at the moment), a $300 Lifetime Sub gives Cryptic enough money to pay one dev for 6-7 hours work, based on the average wage of a programmer in the US in 2011. Scale that up to $500, and you get 10-12 man-hours of dev work. Of course, 100% of the money doesn't go to wages. Let's assume that 25% does - that's quite reasonable. That means that $500 pays ONE dev to work for 2-3 hours.
At those numbers, it takes $30,000 - or 2000 subscriptions - just to pay one dev's salary.
It doesn't matter how much you pay, you probably aren't the backbone of the company. Just because you bought Zen once doesn't mean you can make any sort of demands. Paying a sub or buying Zen (or both!) gives you more importance to the company, but unless you're spending literally thousands of dollars every month, you aren't making a big enough impact on their bottom line to make demands.
And that's why it's unreasonable to think that you should get everything you want, just because you're a paying customer. Here, or anywhere else.
@flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
This is an unfair comparison, and it does nothing but to help enforce that stereotype. Furthermore, are you implying that anyone who has spent ZEN on the game is demanding extras by default just because they've spent a certain amount of ZEN? Come on.
I'm pretty sure you'd be hard-pressed to apply the same scenario for someone who's actually invested into a monthly-subscription, came across issues that are detrimental to their enjoyment of the game, only to not get the kind of customer support that a gold subscription promises. If that's the case then they'd have every right to be upset.
Anyone who has spent an amount of money into the game contributes on some level.
Ironically this kind of breakdown reinforces what Jon was against all along with his intended use of the quote, and that's judging a player's importance based on the amount of money they've spent versus someone who's spent less or nothing at all.
I'm not implying anything.
I'm stating outright that those who DO demand special treatment because they "spend money here", regardless of where "here" is, have a gross overestimation of their contribution to the company.
When you pay your subscription, it's spelled out what you're getting for your money. Same thing with Zen. If you make a payment expecting to get Gold account access and/or Zen, then you're doing it right, and I have no beef with you. If you expect your feet massaged and your loins annoited, as per the quote, or you think that some purchase entitles you to make demands of the devs' time, then you're mistaken. The latter is the only one that I'm making the comparison to, and there's nothing unfair about it. You paid for a service. You got said service. You demand something you didn't pay for. You aren't getting it.*
If you want to make demands of the devs' time, then buy their time. Contact Cryptic and/or PWE and negotiate a contract in which you pay their wages while they work on your project.
*That's the general "you", not in reference to anyone specific.
To continue my above analogy, this person paid $5 for the cheeseburger combo, but didn't get their fries. Their purchase was supposed to include something that they didn't get; yes, they have every right to get upset.
Of course, that assumes that you're talking about something that IS included in the sub - like GM support, which is sadly lacking here. If you're talking about additions to the game, or bug fixes, or even server uptime, your subscription purchase does not promise any of this, and even includes a warning that the latter is not guaranteed.
@flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
Let's talk about what the devs' "time" should be used for in the most layman of terms shall we?
- Bug fixes
- Creating content
- Releasing development update reports
All of which help to ensure paying player retention. Guess what? They're doing really poor in all three departments right now.
No one has to make special arrangements to "buy" devs' time to do all of these things, especially when devs working on other games do a much more stellar job without any special contractual arrangements between players and them.
Not guaranteed nor promised, but let's be realistic here shall we? MMORPGs need to grow. The product can't stagnate otherwise you're going to lose player retention and overall player interest. The product also has to be improved and maintained adequately in terms of bug fixes for one. Find me a MMO out there that's considered largely successful but at the same time has a poor, minimal amount and quality of content. Yeah, I thought so.
Players do expect that growth and improvement to happen when they invest a monthly-subscription fee, even if "on paper" the companies involved aren't obliged to do it. Saying that it's unreasonable for them to voice their discontent when it doesn't happen just because the companies aren't obliged to is just ridiculous. This isn't about asking for freebies. This isn't about asking for something that players "didn't pay for". This isn't about self-entitlement. This is just fundamental.
Wouldn't this only apply to subscription fees since that money is labeled as being specifically for certain games? When buying Zen, PWE gets your money before that Zen is applied to any particular game. A 5000 Zen purchase is simply labeled and billed as a 5000 Zen purchase, not "5000 Zen towards CO, STO, Jade Dynasty, RaiderZ, etc".
Not trying to marginalize Zen purchases or the people who buy it, just don't see how the money spent on buying it would necessarily go towards the betterment of games PWE isn't actively promoting.
I guess if they wanted to, they could track which game the ZEN is going to specifically to determine that the investment is being made for that particular game.
I'm really not sure if I'm not being clear, or if you're deliberately talking about something different than I am.
I - and the quote in Jon's sig, as far as I can tell - am talking about people making specific demands of certain things that MUST be done, because they are paying customers, and they say so.
New content, bug fixes? I've only been here about 6 months, and I've seen both, and there's evidence on the PTS of more. Is it exactly what I want? No. And no matter what they put out, virtually no one will be able to answer that question "yes". I certainly would like to see more than the current rate of development.
I want, more than anything else in this game, to see the Foundry added. Do I think that, because I gave them $300 a few months ago, I'm entitled to demand it be added? No. That would be stupid. Will I be happy as a pig in **** if it happens? Hell, yes!
Am I going to post in EVERY thread on the forums telling the people involved that their thoughts and questions are irrelevant because they aren't the Foundry, and spam the forums with claims that it is the only possible thing the devs could work on that wouldn't be a waste of time? No, because that would make me a self-entitled prick.
There's a difference between having reasonable expectations, and acting like you own the company because you make one or two small purchases a month. And as I've said before in this thread, the former are reasonable people; the latter are flat out wrong.
@flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
Sure.
Still I bet a lot of people are having wtf how did I miss that moments.
I did. WE TRANSFER EVERY TIME. From A to B. A has our actual money, B is whatever...oh dear.
And my argument is that paying customers can make certain demands and complaints that are reasonable depending on what those demands and complaints are.
That quote generalizes anyone who has made some kind of investment into the game, and has a certain complaint, especially when it's valid, as some kind of self-entitled whiner who exaggerates their importance. That's my issue with it. Jon claims that it actually is supposed to make fun of people who exaggerate their importance over other less-contributing players, but I don't see it anywhere in that quote.
I'm pretty sure they track where bought Zen goes I just don't think they consider any of that transferred Zen as investing equivalent dollar amounts into that game. They already have your money.
I would expect that it would be somewhat important to do the tracking to see which game service it is that the paying player is using the ZEN for, to basically determine the value of that game service in terms of player interest, whether or not it's lucrative to keep it maintained and running.
Please go back and read the first sentence you quoted from me. I'll even save you the time of looking for it, and type it again here.
I am not implying anything.
You did not pay for future services. You paid for access to the current services, at the time you made those payments. If you go to McDonald's and buy your 99 cent cheeseburger, and there's a sign saying that next month there will be a new McAwesomeBurger, and you come back next month to find that the McAwesomeBurger has been canceled, was your previous cheeseburger lessened? Was your previous purchase a tacit agreement that next month there would be something new for you?
Look, I'm not saying that Cryptic is doing everything right. I'm not saying that there are no unfulfilled promises, and that the game is perfect as is. I absolutely do not agree that the OP is correct* in that we should all just be positive, and everything will get better.
*Edit: Ignore this bit. For a moment I thought I was in the gotta have faith thread.
What I am saying is that Cryptic owes you nothing more than you paid for, and they are delivering what they owe you. If you feel that you aren't getting your money's worth, then it is your prerogative to stop paying for those services. It's silly to get what you paid for and demand more, because you don't think getting what you paid for was a good enough deal.
It's even more silly to keep giving them money if you feel like you've been repeatedly underwhelmed by the product. I get sick every time I eat at McDonald's. I don't keep going back hoping that one day their food magically gets better. I don't write letters to Head Office demanding that they start making their food to my specifications. I stop paying them for a product I don't want.
@flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
FWIW, Bunnyman's analysis is closer to the case. The quote comes from a thread on STO, where people were waxing wroth because for the first few days of LoR there was a queue, and downtimes averaging about an hour a day as bugs were patched. Gold members did indeed get queue priority; there were those Silvers, though, pitching fits about the whole thing because they were "paying customers", and "deserved" more. They'd spent some money on Zen, you see, and that made them speshul. (Some of them even pulled out the claim that LTS players were "freeloading" because they only paid once...)
Then there was all the complaining about how the Romulans were implemented (you're not playing a bad guy, which seemed to upset some people, and they can't decide if you shouldn't be allowed to use your ally's ships, or if you should get them for free - they cost Dilithium). And again, while some of the complaints came from lifers, the majority came from Silvers claiming privilege because they bought Zen.
The apt comparison is would be to someone who went into McDonald's, bought a cheeseburger and a water, then demanded that it be brought to his table rather than him having to wait at the counter because "I'm a paying customer!"
I've probably spent about $200 or so on CO over time - does that mean I get to make demands about what costumes come next, or how the events are run (I gave up on that stupid race, and the Forum Malvanum never gets past round 7)?
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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Gee, I wondered why the context of the quote wasn't made absolutely clear. I guess it's all too much for a signature. :rolleyes:
Makes for a pretty poor signature if the intended message didn't get across immediately.
This is not a good comparison. McDonald's provides fast food. Not an ongoing evolving electronic service.
Remember that time McDonald's was sacked with a lawsuit when they offered a subscription based eating fee promising more variety in the menu on a monthly basis?
And then they didn't follow through on the promises and people complained?
And then the right thinking people (who apparently have no concept of paying for a service) shouted down the hungry disappointed masses and saved the day for McD's?
No?
It's because the idea and the comparison are both patently absurd.
And if money is not relevant, what of your claim to have "spent about $200"?
Anyway, I'm bored with rising to your bait. If you want to "win" this conversation, congratulations, you win.
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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I tend to disagree with some of the elements expressed here. I believe that the opinions of a businesses customers should have more validity than those who choose not to be customers of the business.
I believe that spending money on the game should give you access to more than those who have not spent money.
I think that having spent money on the game DOES make you privileged in the sense that it gives you access to things that are restricted to those that have spent money.
Having a privilege doesn't make you, or I for that matter, any better than anyone else, and neither does having the money to spend. But, when dealing with a for profit company, spending money on their service does qualify you for greater service, pribilege, whate have you, than those who opt to not spend money on the game.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
That's a very nice man made of straw you built there. Excuse me for actually expecting for the money I spend to go towards development on the game rather than wherever they're actually putting it. That's not expecting "freebies," that's expecting that they utilize their capital to support their product.
To use your McDonalds analogy, as piss poor as it is, I'm expecting them to buy new meat to make future sandwiches with rather than making them with old, rotting meat 5 months past its expiration date.
The basket case, maybe.
Considering that the person who paid $500 once and likes to bring it up over and over again is NOT me, nor did I ever claim it was, I can only assume you didn't read anything else I posted. Especially since you posted this:
For what, the third time now, the specific people I was calling out are the ones who say that because they've paid money, they get to dictate exactly how the devs spend their time. You obviously feel this applies to you, since you're getting so defensive over it.
Yes, a portion of the subscription/Zen cost should go to development. But until you own the game, Cryptic gets to decide what goes into it. Not you.
And yes, some of the money you give them should be put towards future development. But you are not buying future development. You are buying access to the game NOW, as it currently stands.
Companies only understand one thing: The bottom line. If you give them money, that means that you like their product, and want them to continue as they are. If you stop giving them money, that means you don't like them any more.
IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE GAME, STOP TELLING THEM THAT YOU LIKE IT, THEN COMPLAINING THAT THEY'RE TAKING YOUR MONEY AND GIVING YOU A GAME YOU DON'T LIKE WHEN THEY GIVE YOU WHAT YOU ASKED FOR.
PWE doesn't give a **** what you say you want on the forums. They care about what makes them money. If you give them money, then as far as they're concerned, they're doing it right.
Anyways, I'm tired of repeating myself to people who are incapable of comprehending the language they claim to speak. If I return to this thread, it won't be on this topic.
@flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
Okay.
I suppose I'll put a bullet in the head of that cat I have that has an indeterminate number of years left because she was born with a condition that is actually slowly killing her.
You must be great at pep rallies. "Just let it DIE!"
*sigh* That didn't last long. But I really hate being misrepresented, and that's exactly what you're doing.
If you stop giving the company money, they have to choose to either cut off their own foot, or figure out what they're doing wrong and fix it. Hopefully, they'll choose the latter course.
If you continue giving them money, then they have no reason to think that they're doing anything wrong, and they won't change anything.
So choose: Keep paying them to stagnate and ruin the game, or take away their money, and hope that they realize that they're doing it wrong.
A different metaphor, one that maybe you will understand:
A parent has told their child to go clean their room. Instead of doing what they are told, the child pisses in the hallway. The parent gives the child a handful of candy and congratulates them.
So long as you keep giving money for developing the game in a way you don't like, you are the parent, and Cryptic is the child. Would you raise your kids like that?
@flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
You really are terrible at metaphors.
Fielding your own strawmen after accusing others of doing that very same thing? You're putting some serious effort into not trying to understand the argument.
No company run by sane individuals will willingly go bankrupt. If their product begins failing, then they try to turn it around so it becomes successful again.
Customer complaints mean nothing, unless there's a lawsuit attached. Companies have long since learned that most complaints are lodged by idiots who have no idea what they're talking about, or are just trying to get free stuff, so they ignore as many as they can, even the legitimate ones. So complain as much as you like, as long as you keep paying them, you are telling them that they're doing a good job.
@flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
No, the argument simply doesn't make sense.
I want the product to have support. How does ensuring its eventual failure help it get support? What do you think happens to a product when it drops in sales, shieldtower? It doesn't just magically go on. It gets cancelled.
So, starvation then.
They have freaking STO and NWO! They aren't going to go bankrupt unless people stop subscribing to those as well, but they likely aren't as those get actual development.
Except bunnyman isn't advocating strangling it to death, just putting the squeeze on it. His entire point hinges upon Cryptic/PWE going with the idea of "our money flow isn't what it used to be, find out why and fix it" while your point hinges upon them skipping that step entirely and just turning everything off instead.
The MMO gaming industry isn't so binary that bunnyman's tactic would spell the death of a game. Game publisher/developers want your money and will do what is necessary to get it. That's entirely why CO went F2P two years ago. in before NCSoft is somehow the exception to that
If someone is buying the product as is there is little reason for the business types to think that person dislikes the current state of the product.
Its pretty rare for a business to automatically assume that a drop in revenue flow means that the product is not worth supporting. The cost of developing a new product is generally much greater than supporting an existing one. So, again in general, a product that is slipping will receive some sort of attention to return it to positive revenue flow.
Now, of course, a business may eventually come to the conclusion that a particular product is beyond salvage and cut it off. This is generally not a response to slipping revenue, but rather to repeated failure to respond to efforts to revive. "If at first you don't succeed, try try again," is a pretty solid description of how things go for businesses with a struggling product (at least until, "don't throw good money after bad," comes into play).
Note that most of the above is predicated on the assumption that the business has access to the resources to attempt the product turnaround. Small businesses without access to extensive credit lines may find themselves in a position of cutting their losses before mom and pop dig themselves into too deep of a hole.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Ask yourself that.
Paying them tells them you like the game as it is. If you think that the game is currently failing, then you are paying them to keep going towards failure.
@flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
NCSoft is the reason I inserted the word "sane" in what was going to be "No company willingly goes bankrupt".
And thank you to shieldtower and ashensnow for trying to give a clearer spin to what I've been trying to get across. My increasingly tired and frustrated brain is far from peak performance right now.
@flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
Especially in a free to play game, where a significant number of those players can actually INCREASE profits by stopping playing.
@flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
They have done such work. Those, "I'm leaving," posts have been around since launch. The game keeps getting adjusted in an, apparent, attempt to restore income.
WE don't know that playerbase shrinkage is being ignored. We have seen attempts to increase revenue and perhaps even interest in the game (even if I personally don't care for the form those efforts have taken) taking place during that time. It is certainly more than we saw during the lead up to STO's launch.
Any supposed ignoring of playerbase shrinkage is not evidence of an intention to can CO if it loses more players. There is no factual link between the two. The only thing I have heard regarding CO's current financial situation was a former CO dev, who now works on another Cryptic title, coming into a private chat channel and mentioning that the introduction of vehicles has been extremely successful for CO.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Heck, I doubt CRYPTIC would know ahead of time.
Remember City of Heroes?
So you'll excuse me if I don't find TT assurances reassuring.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
That's kind of dismissive.
Customer complaints get can something done without the need of lawsuits. There are more than enough examples out there of companies making corrective actions due to customer complaints, even though they've already gotten their money. There also should be more than enough examples out there where companies treated their customers like whiny idiots who don't know any better and eventually tanked. One good example of such a company? Flagship Studios.
Yeah that is what the COX devs said( what TT said) shortly before the end.
But yeah from what I hear, the lockboxes for all the dings against them is making a killing. Someone like them lockboxes and seems like it's the number one selling thing so far. So of course the logical thing would be to make more lockboxes to keep them selling.
It's not like new player subs are pouring in by the thousands, but still as fun as this game is, it boils down to business. A business' business is to make money.
Some customers will use the "Well then I'm leaving if they dont do such and such" as if that will change someone. Usually not, because 1) most of the time it's a mere bluff. 2) even if the company did cave and gave in to the I'm leaving demands, then that person will try it again and again, and no matter what the company does to please this person, they going to find something else to say "Well if they dont this or that I'm leaving." and while they busy tryingto please someone that cant be pleased, they are losing actual more customers that find the catering changes bootleg. And the person they are trying to keep will eventually leave any ways. Best thing to do, is let them leave. Now if it's a mass bunch of people actually leaving, that should raise some eyebrows. But one or two, if they are on their way out the door, really, 90% of the time they wouldnt bother announcing it trying to makea big spectacle out of it. They would have just done it already.
Except they did leave and they haven't come back.
You are what I like to call a sucker. A chump. You wrap your lips around the funnel and swallow whatever bull**** comes from the other side. You'll even smile when they tell you it's chocolate.
They even admittedly condone it:
Really? How petty of you. I think it's frankly folks like you that help drive customers away with that kind of attitude. I think if you quit, profits would increase.
What? Alerts? Vehicles? Temporary events with 15 minutes of content each? These are the efforts to revitalize the game to bring back customers? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Of course, he's a Cryptic employee. He's trying to sell you the vehicles.
He's the community manager. It's his job to lie to us.
Pretty much.
as others have said, i like tt, he seems to be trying to do his job under adverse situations, but zillinger was far more upbeat on the future of coh right before the betrayal. so while i do not thing co is more likely to close down now than at any other point in its troubled history, His assurances really don't mean anything. if he can commit to us getting new, permanent content that is not another damned worthless money sucking piece of garbage vehicle, then i will be thrilled, but no dice so far. how about we start small and get a new costume set? haven't had one of them in months
I'm curious, increase profits how exactly?