I dunno, you said that once already and look how that turned out
Ikr? lol
Anyway, back on topic:
Apparently, sources tell me that the new boxes have a higher drop rate of legion gear than tako boxes according to PTS. Can anyone confirm this or do we have to wait until it comes to live?
Apparently, sources tell me that the new boxes have a higher drop rate of legion gear than tako boxes according to PTS. Can anyone confirm this or do we have to wait until it comes to live?
Expect to see more people with 96% dodge chance soon!
THEY ARE DUCK DODGERS!
A "true PvPer" plays HG's no matter the current state of the game. Where have you been lately? Saying you would rather Imbue be left as it was, fully broken, is somewhat a surprise coming from you (even tho I know you abused the **** out of it like most of DC.) But alas, to each their own. Personally, I just wanted Imbue to be fixed and to consume on Conviction and Strafing Run (which it didn't, allowing ppl to have perma imbue behind double bubbles, conviction crit heals and a massive 1 shot kill attack.) Instead the devs changed it from an on-next-hit (which it should have stayed as) and changed it into an active. Laziness on the dev's part and not my fault. L2P without exploiting a power, if you are upset with me, at least give me a reason to make you upset.
Nope, not upset with you and you minsinterpreted my post. I use imbue mainly to crit my unleashed rage for 1 shotting which consumes it. It just so happens that it boost my conviction but that is not my main purpose of using it. I totally agree that they should fix the consume on use be it strafing run or conviction. However the fix was as pointed out already, is badly implemented. Given the current state of the imbue vs the prior state, I still maintain my stand that the old imbue was better. At least it was useful enough for people to use it. It boosted many attacks giving the possibility for duels to end faster due to the higher chance of 1 shotting or greatly reducing the HP of another. My point was you were not so much nerfcrying but rather you were calling for a bug fix. I have no issue with bug fixes but I have issues with how it was fixed and that is certainly not within your control.
Smoochan, I get what you are saying and I agree a diverse pvp environment will be most ideal. As long as people are able to accept that there will be still imbalance to some extent although it is possible to narrow this while retaining diversity. A whole balance pass will be ideal but at the same time it will be too massive and there are bound to be many powers which will still fall off the sidelines. We also cannot ensure that people will pick a balanced set of powers (eg passive, ao, ad, spike, maintained dps, heals, cc etc) which work for pvp and not end up self-gimping.
Let's consider a healer build. Yes, we may be able to buff the heals to a point where the healer build can survive. However, what are the chances of it being able to kill? This is precisely my point that the powers are meant to function differently. This is also clearly apparently amongst ATs as their powers and roles are significantly different.
The reason I do not agree with power-by-power nerfing but rather buffing is because we have already seen how badly nerfing is carried out. There are also many implications when there are drastic power changes for people using these powers. The retconning process goes far beyond power changes. A build also consists of gears, mods, devices even and these are all time and effort or even money that others put in. It is basically a post-release nerf pretty much like how the prototype jet's speed was nerfed. Buffing on the other hand allows players with builds which worked to continue using these builds while others joining can choose to use other powers which are brought up to par. For example, while many players have now switched to 2GM, there are those who still choose to stick to ER.
[...]
Let's consider a healer build. Yes, we may be able to buff the heals to a point where the healer build can survive. However, what are the chances of it being able to kill? [...]
Have we really been in our current state that long that we have completely forgotten that pvp at some point in this game was a team sport where the teams healer just healed and didn't personally have to worry about killing?
I guess we have. Throw it on the pile of playstyles that are no longer valid, and fondly remember the players who like that playstyle and left.
"Just deal with it and play" doesn't work. Proof is in the game.
As far as buffing being better than nerfing, it's all relative.
A = 10
B = 20
Oh no, they're imbalanced, let's try nerfing.
A = 10
B = 10
Hey that worked,... let's try buffing!
A = 20
B = 20
Oh look, also balanced. I personally don't care if they nerf or buff, as I'm not married to how big my numbers are, and I won't feel somehow diminished if my numbers get smaller and I won't feel like I'm somehow better if my numbers get bigger; the only thing I care about is how those numbers perform in relation to their in-game parallels.
nerf, buff, meaningless. Balance it.
Though if I had to pick, I would go with nerf. Power inflation is already way out of control, and with the upcoming proliferation of 4 slot gear, it's going to get even worse.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
BASH - no such thing as team healers
UTC - team healer gets low score (queue system is broken)
Stronghold - team healer gets low score (turrets are broken)
KotH - team healer gets low score
ZA - don't be the starting zombie, for that matter, just don't be a zombie healer
Of course you can argue that players do not play for score. The rewards are not important. However, the truth is that healers can still play these games now. The last I checked, healers like Jewel Blueberry and Tala are still pretty able to keep the bosses in stronghold alive with Palliate. People are leaving because there are no one queuing and no one is queuing because there is no purpose to. Come to think of it, many players in Dark Crusade seemed to have stop playing after the Imbue nerf (not sure, just a perception so may not be true).
Now I am starting to see why our opinions differ. You seem to see balance as a simplistic issue of bigger or smaller numbers. Your perspective ignores the different ways the powers function and the different ways they interact with other powers and how players use them.
Let me try to give some specific examples.
Ego Storm: it is not about how much damage that ego storm was dealing throughout its duration vs other holds with no damage which worked for PvP. It was the fact that it was refreshing its hold with the malevolent manifestation hence allowing melee toons to hold a range toon long enough to get close and charge an attack. Range users do not use ego storm. Instead they use EM to reverse lunge out of it. Short of converting all other maintained holds to have an advantage like that, there is no real way to balance. Hence what happened? In the attempt to nerf ego storm the entire hold system gets broken to a point of almost being useless and at the same time causing melee to become almost not viable for PvP due to the kiting.
Ego Sleep: Let's take say someone says it is too powerful and last too long and cannot be broken without an active offense. If we nerf that, shadowstrike becomes instantly useless in PvP. Everyone would tap spam close AoE attacks and shadowstrikers will not even be able to get close.
Imbue (assuming it works as intended without it not getting consumed): Is meant to be an ONH with gives a guaranteed crit hit with a cooldown timer. Players use it to boost their hardest hitting attacks like Unleashed Rage or Force Cascade and made sure it crit. It also allow players who do not stat dex to be able to ensure a crit and use con/pre to boost the crit severity. Now based on the point of which number is bigger or smaller, there are no other powers which functions like imbue. So how do we balance the numbers then? Do we make other powers also function like imbue or do we nerf imbue so that it becomes an AO like it is currently. Notice that there is significantly fewer FC users now?
Ebon Ruin: people utilize it to reduce heal effectiveness. How do we put the numbers to it? It is not about Fireball having larger damage figures and ER having a lower damage. It is used in combination with other powers with high DPS. People now tap ER and follow it with 2GM. They cannot do the same with fireball or ice blast. Hence there was the other thread which suggested putting trauma onto other range attacks (which definitely sounds like a buff to other powers rather than a nerf to remove trauma from ER).
Now it is not to say that looking at numbers (big or small) is wrong. Sometimes, the fix could be that simple (just look at 2GM buff). Most of the time it is not.
As to nerf/buff, I already pointed out that a nerf basically has negative impacts to players using those powers while a buff does not negatively impact players but boost those who use the buffed powers. We should not marginalize players who have spent time, effort and money in building their toons.
You are correct about the power inflation. It is happening. There are many implications for this. Firstly, as a game progress, level cap increase is usually the way to go and people are calling for it. From how things are looking, I have a feeling that CO's engine was not designed with an easy level cap increase in mind and any attempts to may throw us all back to prehistoric time when dinosaurs run over Millennium City. Hence all the gears, devices, mods which are surfacing seem like an alternative to that. Not necessary a good thing, because the gap between a lvl39 and a lvl40 toon maxed out will be very big. At the same time, they seem to need to provide something for players to work towards and costume pieces are not necessarily a thing for everyone.
BASH - no such thing as team healers
UTC - team healer gets low score (queue system is broken)
Stronghold - team healer gets low score (turrets are broken)
KotH - team healer gets low score
ZA - don't be the starting zombie, for that matter, just don't be a zombie healer
Oh look, more examples of how bad game design shaped the playstyles of the players.
More examples of why people felt that "just deal with it and play" was the less desireable option.
Now I am starting to see why our opinions differ. You seem to see balance as a simplistic issue of bigger or smaller numbers. Your perspective ignores the different ways the powers function and the different ways they interact with other powers and how players use them.
I'm stop you right here. Your assumption about how I see balance was wrong... so the majority of your post that follows was unnecessary.
As to nerf/buff, I already pointed out that a nerf basically has negative impacts to players using those powers while a buff does not negatively impact players but boost those who use the buffed powers. We should not marginalize players who have spent time, effort and money in building their toons.
They wouldn't be getting penalized nerf or buff, because in the result of those changes they would still be enjoying the benefits of the time, effort and money that they put into building their toons. A balanced system would not somehow cancel out any of these benefits. In fact, the system as it is right now is cancelling out the benefit that time, effort, and money have for a lot of people who's playstyles cannot be empowered by time, effort, or money no matter how hard they try. Wether the balance gets shifted up or down, gear, knowledge, and skill will continue to be factors... in fact, they will probably factor in even more, especially if the balance is shifted down ( inflated numbers make gear less meaningful for one ).
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
So let me get this straight . In the PvP section theres a thread with the sentences or abbreviations that consist of the words WHAT, IS & THIS and no one has posted a picture of this guy yet....
You guys should be ashamed of yourself -.-
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
Oh look, more examples of how bad game design shaped the playstyles of the players.
More examples of why people felt that "just deal with it and play" was the less desireable option.
OK, so now we are moving beyond power "balancing" into the realms of PvP design which was not the initial discussion. However, that's fine and I agree with you had the game design incorporated for examples, scoring systems for holds, heals, dodge, damage taken etc maybe and just maybe it will promote different styles of play beyond whoever gets the most kills in the duration. However, that is looking at a major overhaul.
They wouldn't be getting penalized nerf or buff, because in the result of those changes they would still be enjoying the benefits of the time, effort and money that they put into building their toons. A balanced system would not somehow cancel out any of these benefits. In fact, the system as it is right now is cancelling out the benefit that time, effort, and money have for a lot of people who's playstyles cannot be empowered by time, effort, or money no matter how hard they try. Wether the balance gets shifted up or down, gear, knowledge, and skill will continue to be factors... in fact, they will probably factor in even more, especially if the balance is shifted down ( inflated numbers make gear less meaningful for one ).
Post release nerfs are always a penalty for players using that power/device/mod/gear. Isn't the prototype jet, backup devices (which were certainly far too OPed) evidence enough. There were people who paid tonnes of Gs to get all the backup devices for example and equipped them on a revitalize build (not me) so they can spam all 5 of them for every other 15 seconds. Subsequently, it got nerfed to useless-ness. So was there any compensation for the Gs spent? Was there any restoration of the bounded devices? How is that not a post-release nerf penalty regardless whether it was outrageously OPed or not.
Let's use a power nerf for another example. If a player has built his toon such that he uses imbue for crit hits hence not devoting any gear or stats into crit chance and instead uses all heal enhancement gear (more specifically, no dex/lucky gem/precision gear for pre/sentinel brooch/rejuvenation gear). A change in a power like that could means regearing, remodding and retconning). If a player uses mediocre gear and has not invested much time/effort/money in it then the impact is not that great. However for those who have then such a post-release nerf is really frustrating and can even drive some players away.
A balanced system on the other hand is totally different. That is the assumption we have a properly, nearly balanced system already. For example all players must have 1 passive, 1 AO, 1 AD, 1 AoE, 1 ST, 1 maintained DPS, 1 spike, 1 CC, 1 heal etc and the powers are more performing at the same level which as I pointed out runs against the grain of freeform.
I understand where you come from when you mentioned that inflated numbers make gear less meaningful but that is also not exactly accurate. Gear influence stats which then gives percentage increase to damage and heals. As such gear still functions as they always did for majority of damage and heal powers. Nevertheless, I am not advocating we should have a power creep. At the same time I do not suggest a downward cycle. A balanced system as you proposed is probably very good for a PvP focused online game. However CO is more of an RPG game. It is like asking for Spider-man to be able to defeat the Hulk/Silver Surfer/Thor or Robin defeating Superman/Green Lantern in a generic situation.
Smooch, stop arguing with one of the legends of Champion's Online, Mr. Wesleytansg. Anything he says and all his opinions about CO and PVP are always correct and they should make him the face and spokesperson for Champion's Online.
Smooch, stop arguing with one of the legends of Champion's Online, Mr. Wesleytansg. Anything he says and all his opinions about CO and PVP are always correct and they should make him the face and spokesperson for Champion's Online.
WESLEYTANSG FOR PRESIDENT!
Please do not say such things there are far more experienced players with much better knowledge like kenpo, snake and sagewithbubble. What I post is based on my own experience in game and my opinions and smoochan has all rights to state his views. That is what forums are meant for and all sensible and logical debates will help to clarify and surface greater accuracy which if implemented would benefit the game. What smoochan says about balance are not wrong it is just that I do not see it as feasible for implementation in CO current context. Some people suggested a set of powers which are balanced for pvp which will be great for genuine pvpers who wish to pit their skills against each other but to seek that level of balance in the freedom system IMO is not really possible.
Please do not say such things there are far more experienced players with much better knowledge like kenpo, snake and sagewithbubble. What I post is based on my own experience in game and my opinions and smoochan has all rights to state his views. That is what forums are meant for and all sensible and logical debates will help to clarify and surface greater accuracy which if implemented would benefit the game. What smoochan says about balance are not wrong it is just that I do not see it as feasible for implementation in CO current context. Some people suggested a set of powers which are balanced for pvp which will be great for genuine pvpers who wish to pit their skills against each other but to seek that level of balance in the freedom system IMO is not really possible.
Lol I has 50% joking wesley, chill I do find your views and opinions and views to be extremely logical and sensible. Maybe because you and I share almost the same views and opinions regarding many topics. In any case, continue your debate with Smooch, I just wanted to lighten the mood up a bit :biggrin:
P.S. I don't agree with some of your choices for "far more experienced players". But I won't mention any names.
All possible prizes:
* 1 Grav Chariot Centurion + 3 pieces of 4-slot gear + 5x one MOD (Rank 7)
* 1 of 3 unique Forum Malvanum Gladiator costume pieces + 1 piece 4-slot gear + 5x one MOD (Rank 6 or 7)
* 1 Gladiator Imperator Become Device + 3 pieces of 4-slot gear + 5x one MOD (Rank 7)
* 25x one MOD (Rank 3) + 1 resource/XP boost
* 25x one MOD (Rank 4) + 1 resource/XP boost
* 25x one MOD (Rank 5)
* 5x one MOD (Rank 6)
* 1 piece of 3-slot gear + 5x one MOD (Rank 6 or 7)
That's cool, you get a device + 3 legions AND r7 mods. At least they did something nice for a change. Watch the drop rate be less than 1% though.
All possible prizes:
* 1 Grav Chariot Centurion + 3 pieces of 4-slot gear + 5x one MOD (Rank 7)
* 1 of 3 unique Forum Malvanum Gladiator costume pieces + 1 piece 4-slot gear + 5x one MOD (Rank 6 or 7)
* 1 Gladiator Imperator Become Device + 3 pieces of 4-slot gear + 5x one MOD (Rank 7)
* 25x one MOD (Rank 3) + 1 resource/XP boost
* 25x one MOD (Rank 4) + 1 resource/XP boost
* 25x one MOD (Rank 5)
* 5x one MOD (Rank 6)
* 1 piece of 3-slot gear + 5x one MOD (Rank 6 or 7)
That's cool, you get a device + 3 legions AND r7 mods. At least they did something nice for a change. Watch the drop rate be less than 1% though.
???
1 piece of 3-slot gear? Like, gear with 3 slots only? Why would anyone buy this, am I missing something?
I feel the need to point out that you seem to be under the mistaken assumption that I am arguing for "over-nerfing", such as they did with Imbue, holds, blocks, etc.
I'm not, so you can stop trying to convince me that over-nerfing is a bad idea... because I already know that it is.
A balanced system on the other hand is totally different. That is the assumption we have a properly, nearly balanced system already. For example all players must have 1 passive, 1 AO, 1 AD, 1 AoE, 1 ST, 1 maintained DPS, 1 spike, 1 CC, 1 heal etc and the powers are more performing at the same level which as I pointed out runs against the grain of freeform.
Power balance doesn't run against the grain of freeform. That's just plain silly. Freeform is about customization, and customization does not require imbalance.
[...] A balanced system as you proposed is probably very good for a PvP focused online game. However CO is more of an RPG game. It is like asking for Spider-man to be able to defeat the Hulk/Silver Surfer/Thor or Robin defeating Superman/Green Lantern in a generic situation.
[...]
Interesting comment. So do you believe that the people who consistently get stomped in pvp due to their desire to play a certain type of character, which is reflected in their build, did so with the intention of playing one of the weaker heroes? Do you believe that CO's system accurately represents what power combinations would "realistically" make a hero stronger, and that this is in fact an accurate simulation of how super powers would function?
If that's the case, then they should ammend power descriptions to add indicators such as "This power is intended for those players intending to play a weak character" so that people who actively want to play a weaker hero can do so more effectively. I would hate to think that someone who wants to roleplay a weak hero might accidentally take a power intended for strong heroes.
Smooch, stop arguing with one of the legends of Champion's Online, Mr. Wesleytansg. Anything he says and all his opinions about CO and PVP are always correct and they should make him the face and spokesperson for Champion's Online.
This discussion is clearly going nowhere. Everyone has their own opinions about the topic. People like myself and Wesley think one way and people like you and Malware think the opposite. The best course of action is to just agree to disagree and move on.
Third time's the charm?
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Smooch, stop arguing with one of the legends of Champion's Online, Mr. Wesleytansg. Anything he says and all his opinions about CO and PVP are always correct and they should make him the face and spokesperson for Champion's Online.
WESLEYTANSG FOR PRESIDENT!
Dude STFU and stop being so CONdescending about people you have no clue about.
Lucy you are harmless...you can't get any kills alone and you know why? 'coz you hit like a girl(no offense)
XD
haha... one of the worst players in pvp says I'm harmless... hahahah *breathe* ahahaha xD
Thanks, br0!
You are so clueless it's unreal. I enjoyed that popcorn moment in pvp channel when you qq'd at soulstrike after he lolrolled you. Even mcnoobing logic'd you! Sad, broseph.
I'm also the only one in the "community" that requires "the magnificent seven" to kill me and lie about how elite they are.
Funny thing is Aphrodite actually is better than they! I thought he euthanized somebody. You should look up 'how to play Champions Online' on google... oh wait.. [nobody will notice that ninja edit]
I'm also the only one in the "community" that requires "the magnificent seven" to kill me and lie about how elite they are.
Funny thing is Aphrodite actually is better than they! I thought you all euthanized him. You should look up 'how to play Champions Online' on google... oh wait..
Go copy something.
Because R.I.P Lucidity II - Part 1 and 2 is definitely 7on1... right. And FYI, Aphrodite hates you more than Malware. We make so much fun of you its pretty jokes
I guess having the veiny shaft of a huge hippo **** deep in your throat distorts your memory and makes you delusional (more than normal).
I don't duel. [well okay maybe the rare time to help a friend test something.] I like to watch it, but I suck at it.
I do like to pvp, but I suck at it, too. Frankly I do expect to die...a lot. And if my friends and I don't get curbstomped once in a while- it takes some of the fun out of it. Who wants to do nothing but win? Where is the challenge in that?
I only do AT only, under level 20, preferably in the cage match, on a team. Tactics are a must. Why? because it is the most fair level to pvp, everyone has the same amount of powers, relative familiarity with them, the difference in level isn't that noticeable, and gear... really doesn't matter. [Unfortunately a lot of people I know go "Eww under 20?" or "Eww AT?" or "Eww team" or simply "pvp is dead, why bother?"- but what can you do?]
A year ago, before on alert, I had a lot of fun doing that. Then my team went to swTOR and never really came back. I'd like to keep doing it, find it a quite amusing pastime, and lots of the people I met are polite and friendly. ...Oddly something I can't say about the few times I've done the unrestricted pvp ques. Maybe I met the bad apples? I'd like to think so.
Anyway, that's my two bits.
No reason to get all grumpy and troll!face people. After all, it is a game, and we're all here because it's fun. Right?
^_____^
I have never assumed that you like over-nerfing. I doubt anyone can see the benefits in that. I am pointing out that Cryptic has demonstrated an impeccable tendency to over-nerf while their buffing seems more controlled.
Power balance doesn't run against the grain of freeform. That's just plain silly. Freeform is about customization, and customization does not require imbalance.
Customization allows a player to choose only heal powers or only hold powers or only tier 1 powers. To be an extremely squishy glass cannon, to pick superstats that do not synergize with their builds because they think it fits their theme more. Customization does not require a player to pick a set of power combinations (as given in my example of pasive, AO, AD, spike, heal etc). Customization allows a player to self-gimp and it is not the business of the devs or any other players to help ensure a self-gimped toon is able to go toe-to-toe with a well built, synergized toon.
If you think freeform does not run against balance, here is a simple test. Remove freeform from the equation. Look at AT PvP. The margin starts to narrow significantly between the balance. But even then, you still have some toons who perform better in PvP. For example, Power Armor (range), Unleashed (FG, DW) , Master (Dodge), Behemoth (Defiance). Wait, what happened to AoPM? What happened to Ebon Ruin? What happened to sleep shadowstrike? What happened to conviction? A whole different set of powers now seem OP.
Interesting comment. So do you believe that the people who consistently get stomped in pvp due to their desire to play a certain type of character, which is reflected in their build, did so with the intention of playing one of the weaker heroes? Do you believe that CO's system accurately represents what power combinations would "realistically" make a hero stronger, and that this is in fact an accurate simulation of how super powers would function?
If that's the case, then they should ammend power descriptions to add indicators such as "This power is intended for those players intending to play a weak character" so that people who actively want to play a weaker hero can do so more effectively. I would hate to think that someone who wants to roleplay a weak hero might accidentally take a power intended for strong heroes.
As a matter of fact I believe there are many areas which can be improved if we want to be more accurately reflecting the power balance in comic. But I think it is clear to see that different powersets are meant for different roles. However the freeform system has already blurred that. From traditional squishy dps, tanky slow hitters, healers, the game has evolved to allow survivable dpser etc. You can still play an inferno AT and get stomped. Do not say an AT cannot be compared to a freeform because any one with a freeform slot can still pick all the powers, stats etc of an inferno.
ROFL that last paragraph can also be rephrase as "can someone post a build which works for PvP since those are all the powers which are stronger". Actually they have added indicators of which powers are weaker. They call it tiers although somewhere along the way it has become muddled and freeform played a big role in messing up the balance.
I also want to point out you seem to have an opinion that I am against balance. I am perfectly fine with balancing something like lightning arc, PBR, TK assault such that they perform relatively on par with each other but we must not forget the potential of those powers intereacting with other powers to give them much greater mileage. I am fine with balancing damage output of tier 4 powers performance. However, once again we need to take into context how they work with other powers, gear, mod etc. This makes the balancing a very futile task. If we wish to balance powers, can you care to provide an example of how nanobot swarm can be balanced with another power since it is the only one with that particular function other than maybe everyone picking the same power? Can you give an example of how Mind Link can be balanced for PvP while retaining its characteristic which is to reflect to all targets in range, a portion of any damage dealt to you or nearby foes while you maintain this power since it is the only one which behaves in such a way. Can you give an example of how you will balance pets for PvP.
Let's go beyond generic talks about balance and get down to the specifics.
this is a rather amusing thread, i think it can be summed up in:
a true pvp'er doesn't care about win or lose, it's all part of the game and his love for pvp. not nerf this op that, that's it. nothing more, nothing less....
the thrill of dominating, the feeling of achievement, with your own prowess and not some one else's build, idea, skills or any of that sort.
kind of like texas hold'em, minutes to learn, years to master.
about the imbue discussion, a flaw in design does not equal nerf, when something is broken... fix it don't nerf it, as in make it consume, when that happends idc in what state or form it comes back as... it won't be there to make a difference since it will be consumed... like all the other ONH powers.
or, make it a proper active offense.
no 6k constant convictions, no nothing. just a onh or an active offense that gets consumed immidietly depending on what it will (if ever) go back to/change to.
all in all, this eternal arguement of who has the bigger shlong is what killed pvp. it's all about ego, and who has more of it. more devices, more balls(even tho they didn't drop yet) more "rushed teenage" behavior despite their age, to show how much of a "true pvp'er" you are...
by posting videos, trying to prove yourselves right, and everyone else who defy your egotistic beliefs wrong, you put yourself in the frontlines of this marching arms race that took pvp to the grave. imbue or not imbue, the community had a big part in killing it... and perhaps, the devs thought the same and decided to neglect for that reason.
so keep on posting those videos, threads, cries, forum bashing... and so on, stick it to the man! it sure worked well so far :rolleyes:
[...]
I also want to point out you seem to have an opinion that I am against balance. [...]
See, the thing is you kind of entered this conversation defending SHaguar's position.. and his position is that the powers are fine and nothing should be changed. That's kind of where I got the impression that you're against the idea of a balance pass, since a balance pass would require a lot of power changes.
If you agree that there needs to be a lot of changes made and that the current state of things is unacceptable, and that the ways that cryptic currently does things with over nerfs and over buffs are a bad idea.... then where's the argument? You could have just said "I agree with you" and then we wouldn't have done all this pointless typing.
Let's agree to agree, lol.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
See, the thing is you kind of entered this conversation defending SHaguar's position.. and his position is that the powers are fine and nothing should be changed. That's kind of where I got the impression that you're against the idea of a balance pass, since a balance pass would require a lot of power changes.
If you agree that there needs to be a lot of changes made and that the current state of things is unacceptable, and that the ways that cryptic currently does things with over nerfs and over buffs are a bad idea.... then where's the argument? You could have just said "I agree with you" and then we wouldn't have done all this pointless typing.
Let's agree to agree, lol.
Actually no, I do not think that CO should waste resources in an attempt at a balance pass for PvP. We can fine tune here and there by buffing some powers (this is what I mean by balancing) but there can never be balance as long as the freeform system remains. An entire overhaul of powers and changing CO into a GW2 kind of game is not the way to it because CO is not meant to be of that genre. A tweak here and a tweak there possibly allows a few more powers into the ranks of pvping but there is no way to ensure that any freeform build will be viable for pvp. I shall borrow some terms here. Freeform can be frankenform or failform.
Actually no, I do not think that CO should waste resources in an attempt at a balance pass for PvP. We can fine tune here and there by buffing some powers (this is what I mean by balancing) but there can never be balance as long as the freeform system remains. An entire overhaul of powers and changing CO into a GW2 kind of game is not the way to it because CO is not meant to be of that genre. A tweak here and a tweak there possibly allows a few more powers into the ranks of pvping but there is no way to ensure that any freeform build will be viable for pvp. I shall borrow some terms here. Freeform can be frankenform or failform.
I also don't want them to turn CO into GW2. Let's agree to agree :biggrin:
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
I also don't want them to turn CO into GW2. Let's agree to agree :biggrin:
LOL yes we should drop this topic. We have presented the arguments and end of the day it is for the devs to decide how to move on. Not like the devs are going to do anything much for PvP.
BTW smoochan, what is your handle in game? I do not think we have made the acquintance.
LOL yes we should drop this topic. We have presented the arguments and end of the day it is for the devs to decide how to move on. Not like the devs are going to do anything much for PvP.
BTW smoochan, what is your handle in game? I do not think we have made the acquintance.
My handle in game is Smoochan of course.
Also, I just wanted to add, my version of a balance pass involves adding a bunch of powers so that all those necessary effects for pvp are present in more frameworks, rather than just one here and just one there, with fun an interesting ways to implement them so they fit in with their framework. Balancing this game would require more than just adjusting a few numbers on the powers that are currently available.
Of course I have no hope that they're going to do any of that, and if any of us were smart we would be making our way to another game that hasn't outlived it's "useful life span" of 3 years.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Comments
Ikr? lol
Anyway, back on topic:
Apparently, sources tell me that the new boxes have a higher drop rate of legion gear than tako boxes according to PTS. Can anyone confirm this or do we have to wait until it comes to live?
k continue. ^_~
Expect to see more people with 96% dodge chance soon!
THEY ARE DUCK DODGERS!
Oh stop talking about ninjas..I prefer boom rawr
She's still in rehab for her steroid addiction.
Nope, not upset with you and you minsinterpreted my post. I use imbue mainly to crit my unleashed rage for 1 shotting which consumes it. It just so happens that it boost my conviction but that is not my main purpose of using it. I totally agree that they should fix the consume on use be it strafing run or conviction. However the fix was as pointed out already, is badly implemented. Given the current state of the imbue vs the prior state, I still maintain my stand that the old imbue was better. At least it was useful enough for people to use it. It boosted many attacks giving the possibility for duels to end faster due to the higher chance of 1 shotting or greatly reducing the HP of another. My point was you were not so much nerfcrying but rather you were calling for a bug fix. I have no issue with bug fixes but I have issues with how it was fixed and that is certainly not within your control.
Let's consider a healer build. Yes, we may be able to buff the heals to a point where the healer build can survive. However, what are the chances of it being able to kill? This is precisely my point that the powers are meant to function differently. This is also clearly apparently amongst ATs as their powers and roles are significantly different.
The reason I do not agree with power-by-power nerfing but rather buffing is because we have already seen how badly nerfing is carried out. There are also many implications when there are drastic power changes for people using these powers. The retconning process goes far beyond power changes. A build also consists of gears, mods, devices even and these are all time and effort or even money that others put in. It is basically a post-release nerf pretty much like how the prototype jet's speed was nerfed. Buffing on the other hand allows players with builds which worked to continue using these builds while others joining can choose to use other powers which are brought up to par. For example, while many players have now switched to 2GM, there are those who still choose to stick to ER.
Have we really been in our current state that long that we have completely forgotten that pvp at some point in this game was a team sport where the teams healer just healed and didn't personally have to worry about killing?
I guess we have. Throw it on the pile of playstyles that are no longer valid, and fondly remember the players who like that playstyle and left.
"Just deal with it and play" doesn't work. Proof is in the game.
As far as buffing being better than nerfing, it's all relative.
A = 10
B = 20
Oh no, they're imbalanced, let's try nerfing.
A = 10
B = 10
Hey that worked,... let's try buffing!
A = 20
B = 20
Oh look, also balanced. I personally don't care if they nerf or buff, as I'm not married to how big my numbers are, and I won't feel somehow diminished if my numbers get smaller and I won't feel like I'm somehow better if my numbers get bigger; the only thing I care about is how those numbers perform in relation to their in-game parallels.
nerf, buff, meaningless. Balance it.
Though if I had to pick, I would go with nerf. Power inflation is already way out of control, and with the upcoming proliferation of 4 slot gear, it's going to get even worse.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
BASH - no such thing as team healers
UTC - team healer gets low score (queue system is broken)
Stronghold - team healer gets low score (turrets are broken)
KotH - team healer gets low score
ZA - don't be the starting zombie, for that matter, just don't be a zombie healer
Of course you can argue that players do not play for score. The rewards are not important. However, the truth is that healers can still play these games now. The last I checked, healers like Jewel Blueberry and Tala are still pretty able to keep the bosses in stronghold alive with Palliate. People are leaving because there are no one queuing and no one is queuing because there is no purpose to. Come to think of it, many players in Dark Crusade seemed to have stop playing after the Imbue nerf (not sure, just a perception so may not be true).
Now I am starting to see why our opinions differ. You seem to see balance as a simplistic issue of bigger or smaller numbers. Your perspective ignores the different ways the powers function and the different ways they interact with other powers and how players use them.
Let me try to give some specific examples.
Ego Storm: it is not about how much damage that ego storm was dealing throughout its duration vs other holds with no damage which worked for PvP. It was the fact that it was refreshing its hold with the malevolent manifestation hence allowing melee toons to hold a range toon long enough to get close and charge an attack. Range users do not use ego storm. Instead they use EM to reverse lunge out of it. Short of converting all other maintained holds to have an advantage like that, there is no real way to balance. Hence what happened? In the attempt to nerf ego storm the entire hold system gets broken to a point of almost being useless and at the same time causing melee to become almost not viable for PvP due to the kiting.
Ego Sleep: Let's take say someone says it is too powerful and last too long and cannot be broken without an active offense. If we nerf that, shadowstrike becomes instantly useless in PvP. Everyone would tap spam close AoE attacks and shadowstrikers will not even be able to get close.
Imbue (assuming it works as intended without it not getting consumed): Is meant to be an ONH with gives a guaranteed crit hit with a cooldown timer. Players use it to boost their hardest hitting attacks like Unleashed Rage or Force Cascade and made sure it crit. It also allow players who do not stat dex to be able to ensure a crit and use con/pre to boost the crit severity. Now based on the point of which number is bigger or smaller, there are no other powers which functions like imbue. So how do we balance the numbers then? Do we make other powers also function like imbue or do we nerf imbue so that it becomes an AO like it is currently. Notice that there is significantly fewer FC users now?
Ebon Ruin: people utilize it to reduce heal effectiveness. How do we put the numbers to it? It is not about Fireball having larger damage figures and ER having a lower damage. It is used in combination with other powers with high DPS. People now tap ER and follow it with 2GM. They cannot do the same with fireball or ice blast. Hence there was the other thread which suggested putting trauma onto other range attacks (which definitely sounds like a buff to other powers rather than a nerf to remove trauma from ER).
Now it is not to say that looking at numbers (big or small) is wrong. Sometimes, the fix could be that simple (just look at 2GM buff). Most of the time it is not.
As to nerf/buff, I already pointed out that a nerf basically has negative impacts to players using those powers while a buff does not negatively impact players but boost those who use the buffed powers. We should not marginalize players who have spent time, effort and money in building their toons.
You are correct about the power inflation. It is happening. There are many implications for this. Firstly, as a game progress, level cap increase is usually the way to go and people are calling for it. From how things are looking, I have a feeling that CO's engine was not designed with an easy level cap increase in mind and any attempts to may throw us all back to prehistoric time when dinosaurs run over Millennium City. Hence all the gears, devices, mods which are surfacing seem like an alternative to that. Not necessary a good thing, because the gap between a lvl39 and a lvl40 toon maxed out will be very big. At the same time, they seem to need to provide something for players to work towards and costume pieces are not necessarily a thing for everyone.
Oh look, more examples of how bad game design shaped the playstyles of the players.
More examples of why people felt that "just deal with it and play" was the less desireable option.
I'm stop you right here. Your assumption about how I see balance was wrong... so the majority of your post that follows was unnecessary.
They wouldn't be getting penalized nerf or buff, because in the result of those changes they would still be enjoying the benefits of the time, effort and money that they put into building their toons. A balanced system would not somehow cancel out any of these benefits. In fact, the system as it is right now is cancelling out the benefit that time, effort, and money have for a lot of people who's playstyles cannot be empowered by time, effort, or money no matter how hard they try. Wether the balance gets shifted up or down, gear, knowledge, and skill will continue to be factors... in fact, they will probably factor in even more, especially if the balance is shifted down ( inflated numbers make gear less meaningful for one ).
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
You guys should be ashamed of yourself -.-
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
OK, so now we are moving beyond power "balancing" into the realms of PvP design which was not the initial discussion. However, that's fine and I agree with you had the game design incorporated for examples, scoring systems for holds, heals, dodge, damage taken etc maybe and just maybe it will promote different styles of play beyond whoever gets the most kills in the duration. However, that is looking at a major overhaul.
OK this is fine too and I made the assumption because in your previous post's examples you mention about bigger and smaller numbers.
Post release nerfs are always a penalty for players using that power/device/mod/gear. Isn't the prototype jet, backup devices (which were certainly far too OPed) evidence enough. There were people who paid tonnes of Gs to get all the backup devices for example and equipped them on a revitalize build (not me) so they can spam all 5 of them for every other 15 seconds. Subsequently, it got nerfed to useless-ness. So was there any compensation for the Gs spent? Was there any restoration of the bounded devices? How is that not a post-release nerf penalty regardless whether it was outrageously OPed or not.
Let's use a power nerf for another example. If a player has built his toon such that he uses imbue for crit hits hence not devoting any gear or stats into crit chance and instead uses all heal enhancement gear (more specifically, no dex/lucky gem/precision gear for pre/sentinel brooch/rejuvenation gear). A change in a power like that could means regearing, remodding and retconning). If a player uses mediocre gear and has not invested much time/effort/money in it then the impact is not that great. However for those who have then such a post-release nerf is really frustrating and can even drive some players away.
A balanced system on the other hand is totally different. That is the assumption we have a properly, nearly balanced system already. For example all players must have 1 passive, 1 AO, 1 AD, 1 AoE, 1 ST, 1 maintained DPS, 1 spike, 1 CC, 1 heal etc and the powers are more performing at the same level which as I pointed out runs against the grain of freeform.
I understand where you come from when you mentioned that inflated numbers make gear less meaningful but that is also not exactly accurate. Gear influence stats which then gives percentage increase to damage and heals. As such gear still functions as they always did for majority of damage and heal powers. Nevertheless, I am not advocating we should have a power creep. At the same time I do not suggest a downward cycle. A balanced system as you proposed is probably very good for a PvP focused online game. However CO is more of an RPG game. It is like asking for Spider-man to be able to defeat the Hulk/Silver Surfer/Thor or Robin defeating Superman/Green Lantern in a generic situation.
Do check out this video. Very cool graphics.
WESLEYTANSG FOR PRESIDENT!
Please do not say such things there are far more experienced players with much better knowledge like kenpo, snake and sagewithbubble. What I post is based on my own experience in game and my opinions and smoochan has all rights to state his views. That is what forums are meant for and all sensible and logical debates will help to clarify and surface greater accuracy which if implemented would benefit the game. What smoochan says about balance are not wrong it is just that I do not see it as feasible for implementation in CO current context. Some people suggested a set of powers which are balanced for pvp which will be great for genuine pvpers who wish to pit their skills against each other but to seek that level of balance in the freedom system IMO is not really possible.
Lol I has 50% joking wesley, chill
P.S. I don't agree with some of your choices for "far more experienced players". But I won't mention any names.
* 1 Grav Chariot Centurion + 3 pieces of 4-slot gear + 5x one MOD (Rank 7)
* 1 of 3 unique Forum Malvanum Gladiator costume pieces + 1 piece 4-slot gear + 5x one MOD (Rank 6 or 7)
* 1 Gladiator Imperator Become Device + 3 pieces of 4-slot gear + 5x one MOD (Rank 7)
* 25x one MOD (Rank 3) + 1 resource/XP boost
* 25x one MOD (Rank 4) + 1 resource/XP boost
* 25x one MOD (Rank 5)
* 5x one MOD (Rank 6)
* 1 piece of 3-slot gear + 5x one MOD (Rank 6 or 7)
That's cool, you get a device + 3 legions AND r7 mods. At least they did something nice for a change. Watch the drop rate be less than 1% though.
1 piece of 3-slot gear? Like, gear with 3 slots only? Why would anyone buy this, am I missing something?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
@Pallih in game
I feel the need to point out that you seem to be under the mistaken assumption that I am arguing for "over-nerfing", such as they did with Imbue, holds, blocks, etc.
I'm not, so you can stop trying to convince me that over-nerfing is a bad idea... because I already know that it is.
Power balance doesn't run against the grain of freeform. That's just plain silly. Freeform is about customization, and customization does not require imbalance.
Interesting comment. So do you believe that the people who consistently get stomped in pvp due to their desire to play a certain type of character, which is reflected in their build, did so with the intention of playing one of the weaker heroes? Do you believe that CO's system accurately represents what power combinations would "realistically" make a hero stronger, and that this is in fact an accurate simulation of how super powers would function?
If that's the case, then they should ammend power descriptions to add indicators such as "This power is intended for those players intending to play a weak character" so that people who actively want to play a weaker hero can do so more effectively. I would hate to think that someone who wants to roleplay a weak hero might accidentally take a power intended for strong heroes.
Third time's the charm?
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Dude STFU and stop being so CONdescending about people you have no clue about.
Pot, meet kettle.
Lucy you are harmless...you can't get any kills alone and you know why? 'coz you hit like a girl(no offense)
XD
Oh joy, a cheat accusation! Please give proof of such cheats! Oh that's right, you're an idiot raging troll who cries "HAX" when you die.
You simply suck at PvP, and that's okay.
I hope 4 hippopotamus' force you to blow them and they all cum on your face simultaneously and you choke on hippo cum and die.
haha... one of the worst players in pvp says I'm harmless... hahahah *breathe* ahahaha xD
Thanks, br0!
You are so clueless it's unreal. I enjoyed that popcorn moment in pvp channel when you qq'd at soulstrike after he lolrolled you. Even mcnoobing logic'd you! Sad, broseph.
#SurroundedByEvil
Um... that smells like Smackbait to me.
ew...did I just imply that I smelled what's going on in that comment?
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Haha idc. I'm sure everyone was already thinking it (or something along the same lines), someone had to say it
Don't listen to him, smooochy, he mad cause you're not a PvP madbro. =P
You can go ahead and brush ya shoulda pads off, ninja; I got you! :P #me0w
maybe if hackware actually talked to me like a human instead of his lame friends he might learn something instead of thinking he knows everything.
*LOL PVPEEN!*
"Champions-Online and Star Trek Online contained hundreds of hours of mediocre content!"
and "nothing was polished".
--Jack Emmert
Omg I got yer phoenix br0! oo ^_^
Error, your kombat tactics score is not high enough to perform a dive-roll.
auuugh! (9_6)
You're the only one out of the community who has that impression of Malware. Maybe you should look up "how to make friends" on google.
Funny thing is Aphrodite actually is better than they! I thought he euthanized somebody. You should look up 'how to play Champions Online' on google... oh wait.. [nobody will notice that ninja edit]
Go copy something.
Because R.I.P Lucidity II - Part 1 and 2 is definitely 7on1... right. And FYI, Aphrodite hates you more than Malware. We make so much fun of you its pretty jokes
I guess having the veiny shaft of a huge hippo **** deep in your throat distorts your memory and makes you delusional (more than normal).
I do like to pvp, but I suck at it, too. Frankly I do expect to die...a lot. And if my friends and I don't get curbstomped once in a while- it takes some of the fun out of it. Who wants to do nothing but win? Where is the challenge in that?
I only do AT only, under level 20, preferably in the cage match, on a team. Tactics are a must. Why? because it is the most fair level to pvp, everyone has the same amount of powers, relative familiarity with them, the difference in level isn't that noticeable, and gear... really doesn't matter. [Unfortunately a lot of people I know go "Eww under 20?" or "Eww AT?" or "Eww team" or simply "pvp is dead, why bother?"- but what can you do?]
A year ago, before on alert, I had a lot of fun doing that. Then my team went to swTOR and never really came back. I'd like to keep doing it, find it a quite amusing pastime, and lots of the people I met are polite and friendly. ...Oddly something I can't say about the few times I've done the unrestricted pvp ques. Maybe I met the bad apples? I'd like to think so.
Anyway, that's my two bits.
No reason to get all grumpy and troll!face people. After all, it is a game, and we're all here because it's fun. Right?
^_____^
I'm going to PvE on their b0lloX.......................... again ^_^
a true pvp'er doesn't care about win or lose, it's all part of the game and his love for pvp. not nerf this op that, that's it. nothing more, nothing less....
the thrill of dominating, the feeling of achievement, with your own prowess and not some one else's build, idea, skills or any of that sort.
kind of like texas hold'em, minutes to learn, years to master.
about the imbue discussion, a flaw in design does not equal nerf, when something is broken... fix it don't nerf it, as in make it consume, when that happends idc in what state or form it comes back as... it won't be there to make a difference since it will be consumed... like all the other ONH powers.
or, make it a proper active offense.
no 6k constant convictions, no nothing. just a onh or an active offense that gets consumed immidietly depending on what it will (if ever) go back to/change to.
all in all, this eternal arguement of who has the bigger shlong is what killed pvp. it's all about ego, and who has more of it. more devices, more balls(even tho they didn't drop yet) more "rushed teenage" behavior despite their age, to show how much of a "true pvp'er" you are...
by posting videos, trying to prove yourselves right, and everyone else who defy your egotistic beliefs wrong, you put yourself in the frontlines of this marching arms race that took pvp to the grave. imbue or not imbue, the community had a big part in killing it... and perhaps, the devs thought the same and decided to neglect for that reason.
so keep on posting those videos, threads, cries, forum bashing... and so on, stick it to the man! it sure worked well so far :rolleyes:
My build directory (work in progress)
Guide list
Freeform Builds
In loving memory of AngelofCaine.
See, the thing is you kind of entered this conversation defending SHaguar's position.. and his position is that the powers are fine and nothing should be changed. That's kind of where I got the impression that you're against the idea of a balance pass, since a balance pass would require a lot of power changes.
If you agree that there needs to be a lot of changes made and that the current state of things is unacceptable, and that the ways that cryptic currently does things with over nerfs and over buffs are a bad idea.... then where's the argument? You could have just said "I agree with you" and then we wouldn't have done all this pointless typing.
Let's agree to agree, lol.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Sidewinder is still trying to figure out why I play action games. LOL
Actually no, I do not think that CO should waste resources in an attempt at a balance pass for PvP. We can fine tune here and there by buffing some powers (this is what I mean by balancing) but there can never be balance as long as the freeform system remains. An entire overhaul of powers and changing CO into a GW2 kind of game is not the way to it because CO is not meant to be of that genre. A tweak here and a tweak there possibly allows a few more powers into the ranks of pvping but there is no way to ensure that any freeform build will be viable for pvp. I shall borrow some terms here. Freeform can be frankenform or failform.
I also don't want them to turn CO into GW2. Let's agree to agree :biggrin:
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
LOL yes we should drop this topic. We have presented the arguments and end of the day it is for the devs to decide how to move on. Not like the devs are going to do anything much for PvP.
BTW smoochan, what is your handle in game? I do not think we have made the acquintance.
My handle in game is Smoochan of course.
Also, I just wanted to add, my version of a balance pass involves adding a bunch of powers so that all those necessary effects for pvp are present in more frameworks, rather than just one here and just one there, with fun an interesting ways to implement them so they fit in with their framework. Balancing this game would require more than just adjusting a few numbers on the powers that are currently available.
Of course I have no hope that they're going to do any of that, and if any of us were smart we would be making our way to another game that hasn't outlived it's "useful life span" of 3 years.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.