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How can relevant rewards be integrated to revive PvP and HG in CO

wesleytansgwesleytansg Posts: 863 Arc User
edited March 2013 in The Hero Games
Sort of inspired to start this thread after putting up a post in Keiko's device/legion rant's thread.

How can we introduce relevant rewards for PvP such that it is easy for Devs to implement and yet have no risk of getting abused? This will be able to provide alternative grinding paths for those who prefer to PvP and would rather PvP grind than PvE grind.

Remember it has to be easy to implement and yet prevent players from fixing matches or throwing games for fast rewards.

Anything I can think of requires quite a programming revamp of the reward system currently in game so if anyone has any good ideas, please few free to put them up. Who knows, maybe a dev would happen to read, pick it up and stick it into the game because it is easy and good.
Post edited by wesleytansg on

Comments

  • s3rjus3rju Posts: 268 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    other games have it, but as it stands right now it isn't achieveable since the system and mechanics are no where near complete.... im talking about resillience and pvp only stats and mechanics, along with pvp only gear. there are many ways we can go with this it's just a matter of how, and possibly when(altough that's something I doubt we'll see the light of)

    just my 2 cents.

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  • pion01pion01 Posts: 758 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    edit: wrong window.
  • mrf0rz1mrf0rz1 Posts: 556 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Putting that kind of stuff would lead the people embracing the whole feature to be more demanding, but at least somewhat okay. The problem is that... They don't want that. In the game's current state they don't want that at all.

  • bioshrikebioshrike Posts: 5,491 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    The biggest urdle to overcome would be to make powers able to affect other players one way, and NPC enemies another. That way, powers can be balanced for PvP without impacting PvE in any negative way.

    Perhaps the concept of a "PvP Build" being added to all characters would entice people to participate more, since they can now have their typical PvE/concept/RP builds, and their PvP "I want to stay competitive" builds. Yes, I realize the two need not be separate, but for many people this would be a godsend. One note, though - the PvP build would only be switched on when dueling or in a PvP match, to avoid people exploiting it just to get 2 builds for the price of one.
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  • wesleytansgwesleytansg Posts: 863 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    bioshrike wrote: »
    The biggest urdle to overcome would be to make powers able to affect other players one way, and NPC enemies another. That way, powers can be balanced for PvP without impacting PvE in any negative way.

    Perhaps the concept of a "PvP Build" being added to all characters would entice people to participate more, since they can now have their typical PvE/concept/RP builds, and their PvP "I want to stay competitive" builds. Yes, I realize the two need not be separate, but for many people this would be a godsend. One note, though - the PvP build would only be switched on when dueling or in a PvP match, to avoid people exploiting it just to get 2 builds for the price of one.

    No, no sir, this thread is not about power balance but how to have rewards such as questionites or Gs be incorporated into PvP without getting abused.
  • gamehobogamehobo Posts: 1,970 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    No, no sir, this thread is not about power balance but how to have rewards such as questionites or Gs be incorporated into PvP without getting abused.

    Not Possible
  • jennymachxjennymachx Posts: 3,000 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Daily questionite rewards like the alert ones. Complete 3 BASH, complete 1 UTC, 1 BASH, 1 Stronghold, etc.
  • wesleytansgwesleytansg Posts: 863 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    jennymachx wrote: »
    Daily questionite rewards like the alert ones. Complete 3 BASH, complete 1 UTC, 1 BASH, 1 Stronghold, etc.

    That certainly sounds feasible. How about any which can be repeated, you know, something like nemcon.
  • lucyinspacewithdiamondslucyinspacewithdiamonds Posts: 1,746 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Why does everyone always want to be rewarded? Kill for the sake of killing! :)
  • monaahirumonaahiru Posts: 3,073 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Why does everyone always want to be rewarded? Kill for the sake of killing! :)

    Reward isn't must but Hero Games queue killed are kinda hell for me. :(

    2 more lvl 40 and my altholic challenge are done. I'll go to take a long break till Hero Game pops like recent days again.
  • prankensteinprankenstein Posts: 194 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    What I would do, as a dev who wanted PvP back, and could only mess with the acquisition of items? I would make Legion Gear either available at 250-500kish acclaim a pop, or I would come out with yet another line of gear, 5-slot, maybe, which is open to the public, but the entire set works only in PvP. Also, I'd fix to make PvP mods not useless.

    Honestly, I'm leaning toward the second option.
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  • vorshothvorshoth Posts: 596 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    I'd do it via Daily Missions from the Hero Games vendors. Simple, equal to same effort in other endeavour rewards, all you have to do is win or participate in a PvP arena.
    Say... 500 Questionite for surviving a zombie apocalypse PvP for a certain amount of time one day..
    The next is 500 Questionite for killing X number of heroes in Zombie apocalypse as a zombie.
    The next is defeat X heroes in PvP generally (including duels, since they are technically a part of the in-verse Hero Games wrestling thing with the duel bomb thing having the logo on it), for less.

    Those kinds of mission.
    Acclaim is gained when you win PvP maps: essentially being your renown on the fighting stage, and should be hard to gain enough to get cool stuff, mainly costume pieces and Power Replacers, I think, since it's wrestling and thus all showwy, since the gear can be shifted to Questionite and Recognition stores.
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  • stergiosmanstergiosman Posts: 717 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    I agree on qnite rewards and legion gear rewards but would also like to talk about another aspect of PvP the low level pvping.
    There should be an award like 10 globals or so for winning in HG as well as a big xp award like 1/10th of the required xp to level up...
    U know...make PvP leveling viable again!
  • lucyinspacewithdiamondslucyinspacewithdiamonds Posts: 1,746 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    I think power balance is more important. Then people will want to get the rewards.
  • stergiosmanstergiosman Posts: 717 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    I think power balance is more important. Then people will want to get the rewards.

    Plz asking for your "balance" will result in further nerfs like imbue and make more builds useless.
  • wesleytansgwesleytansg Posts: 863 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    vorshoth wrote: »
    I'd do it via Daily Missions from the Hero Games vendors. Simple, equal to same effort in other endeavour rewards, all you have to do is win or participate in a PvP arena.
    Say... 500 Questionite for surviving a zombie apocalypse PvP for a certain amount of time one day..
    The next is 500 Questionite for killing X number of heroes in Zombie apocalypse as a zombie.
    The next is defeat X heroes in PvP generally (including duels, since they are technically a part of the in-verse Hero Games wrestling thing with the duel bomb thing having the logo on it), for less.

    Those kinds of mission.
    Acclaim is gained when you win PvP maps: essentially being your renown on the fighting stage, and should be hard to gain enough to get cool stuff, mainly costume pieces and Power Replacers, I think, since it's wrestling and thus all showwy, since the gear can be shifted to Questionite and Recognition stores.

    Not sure about this, the potential for it to be abuse is great. A group of players can just agree to take turns killing each other. However given the low amount of 500 Q it may not be worth the trouble.
  • wesleytansgwesleytansg Posts: 863 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    I was thinking a system like ZA and BASH with a timer may work. Adjust the rewards according to the timer such that the time it takes to earn the rewards for example questionites will be equitable to the rewards from PvE in roughly the same amount of time. Hence the longer the Hero Game, the more Q can be awarded. Some reward for effort could also be given to the losing team but much lower than that of winning. In the case of BASH it will also be based on the time and then the (number of kills minus deaths)/10 will be use to calculate the percentage of the reward based on time of the game. Hence if someone gets 10 kills without any deaths in a short time he will get the full percentage but of a far lower reward quantum because the fight was obviously no challenge for him or it was rigged.

    Sure, players can choose to stand around. However, if that is the case, they might as well be doing PvE because it is about the same time required.

    These 2 games should also allows new players to join throughout the duration. Hence players cannot AFK and clock time without the risk of getting killed.
  • lucyinspacewithdiamondslucyinspacewithdiamonds Posts: 1,746 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    There are good nerfs and bad nerfs. Balancing doesn't always result in bad nerfs, and there are other ways to balance things besides just nerfing. >_>
  • monaahirumonaahiru Posts: 3,073 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Rewarding Questionite for Hero Games isn't a bad idea cause we need much amount of Questionite to Re-Modification.
  • smoochansmoochan Posts: 2,564 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Here's the thing.

    Let's say they did add a questionite reward to pvp in some way. Would that really revitalize pvp? I have my doubts, because you can get questionite elsewhere. Fact is, most people who aren't pvping aren't doing so because there's no reward... they're doing it because they don't enjoy what pvp currently is all about in this game.


    The other thing they could do is implement some sort of reward that you can't get anywhere else, that people would really want. However, this essentially constitutes a trap; just like setting a chunk of cheese on a mouse trap. Forcing people to endure pvp is not the same as enticing people to participate in pvp.

    So basically <Insert a bunch of stuff about how they have to work on balance first>.

    Once that's out of the way, the best way to reward folks for pvping is to give them stuff that pvpers want. From what I understand, pvpers would want Questionite, resources, mods, and silver recognition, as these all directly relate to the things that they want to acquire to get an edge in the arena.

    So the simplest way to do it would be to have it be done through repeatable quests.

    i.e.,

    Quest 1: Participate in 10 hero games matches.

    Quest 2: Win 5 hero games matches ( only counts for UTC, king of the hill, and the prison ).

    Quest 3: Participate in one match of each hero game type.


    When you turn the quest in you get to pick one of the four rewards; resources, mods, silver recognition, or a questionite box. The quests can be repeated infinitely or whatever.

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  • wesleytansgwesleytansg Posts: 863 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    smoochan wrote: »

    So the simplest way to do it would be to have it be done through repeatable quests.

    i.e.,

    Quest 1: Participate in 10 hero games matches.

    Quest 2: Win 5 hero games matches ( only counts for UTC, king of the hill, and the prison ).

    Quest 3: Participate in one match of each hero game type.


    When you turn the quest in you get to pick one of the four rewards; resources, mods, silver recognition, or a questionite box. The quests can be repeated infinitely or whatever.

    Yes these are good ideas as long as mechanics are put in place to prevent abuse by non-pvpers who just want a fast reward. So if a match plays out to a certain amount of time which is somehow comparable to what it takes in PvE for the same amount of rewards, this will deter people from trying to abuse the system.
  • itsbrou#5396 itsbrou Posts: 1,770 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Here's how:

    When you enter the map, chat between non-friendly players occupying the zone will be impossible to see.

    In the time before the PvP game begins, a mission popup will appear, giving you a secondary goal to winning(represented as the agent calling you about an idea to raise ratings of the HERO Games showing), such as "Knock 12 people," "Throw 7 freights at players," "resurrect 3 allies in a match," and more.

    You will only get your Q box if you win and/or accomplish your goal, which will be completely different from other players. Allies knowing your goal will not matter. Since chat will be restricted against unfriendly players, this will ward off the quickest form of coordinated farming.

    The goal is not to completely stop it, but to make it so hard to fix the match that just playing by the rules or doing Gravitar will be more fun and easy.
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  • wesleytansgwesleytansg Posts: 863 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Here's how:

    When you enter the map, chat between non-friendly players occupying the zone will be impossible to see.

    In the time before the PvP game begins, a mission popup will appear, giving you a secondary goal to winning(represented as the agent calling you about an idea to raise ratings of the HERO Games showing), such as "Knock 12 people," "Throw 7 freights at players," "resurrect 3 allies in a match," and more.

    You will only get your Q box if you win and/or accomplish your goal, which will be completely different from other players. Allies knowing your goal will not matter. Since chat will be restricted against unfriendly players, this will ward off the quickest form of coordinated farming.

    The goal is not to completely stop it, but to make it so hard to fix the match that just playing by the rules or doing Gravitar will be more fun and easy.

    Nice to hear a different, unique and interesting idea for PvP. The only issue will be implementation. It has to be relatively painless for the devs to implement. But keep them all coming in and who knows what kind of gems we may find which we can bring to the Trailturtle to feedback to the devs.
  • jennymachxjennymachx Posts: 3,000 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    smoochan wrote: »
    Here's the thing.

    Let's say they did add a questionite reward to pvp in some way. Would that really revitalize pvp? I have my doubts, because you can get questionite elsewhere. Fact is, most people who aren't pvping aren't doing so because there's no reward... they're doing it because they don't enjoy what pvp currently is all about in this game.

    Well allow me to draw a parallel.

    I don't enjoy doing pyramid power burst alerts, especially when I'm expected to complete three of them when the radioactive one just isn't popping up. I find Grab alerts boring and generic. Why would I do them on a daily basis? To get questionite. Why would I keep doing the Red Snake, Green Dragon alert? Because I can't get enough of Red Snake's nasal voice? No, I want to get silver merits so that I have an easier time getting heroic gear for an alt. I don't think it's a bold statement to say that plenty of others share my view.

    Adding a questionite reward would definitely bring more of presence to PVP than it has now. After all what's being suggested is purely participation in PVP to get the reward, and not based on how many wins are achieved.
  • smoochansmoochan Posts: 2,564 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    jennymachx wrote: »
    [...]
    Adding a questionite reward would definitely bring more of presence to PVP than it has now. After all what's being suggested is purely participation in PVP to get the reward, and not based on how many wins are achieved.

    Yeah... as Wesley (<-- edit..I must have shaggy on the brain, lol ) pointed out, that would bring more problems than it would solve. Sure, more people would be queing for hero games, in fact I guarentee you would have the queue popping all day. On the other hand, who wins would basically be determined by who has less leechers on their team.


    The leeching problem is one that has plauged many games. How do you prove that someone is leeching, in technical terms that the game can recognize, and deny them a reward? If you say "okay, anyone who just sits there and does nothing gets no reward"; that's easily solved, they just make a bee line for the other team and try to get killed so the match ends quickly. At that point, the only thing you can prove is that they're not playing skillfully, but it would be very difficult to put a system in place that detects non-skillfull play that is on purpose.

    If on the other hand you deny rewards to those who don't play skillfully, say some sort of comparison of damage dealt to damage taken or something like that, you end up right back where you started with people saying "Oh, I don't get rewards if I don't have a coolguy build... screw this Im out". If you determine who gets rewarded based on wins, you get the same problem; we know that, realistically, the "pros" will get tired of the "newbs" keeping them from getting the rewards, and will band together. End result, pros queing as a team, with no one else bothering to que because they know they won't have a chance.

    It's a real "damned if you do it this way, damned if you do it that way" sort of situation. Reward everyone, result is leechers. Reward the winners, losers don't see a point in playing.

    This is of course if you subscribe to the "people will only pvp if there are rewards" way of thinking, upon which this thread is more or less based.

    Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
  • wesleytansgwesleytansg Posts: 863 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Hmm, a few concerns which Smoochan has raised here to consider.

    One is leeching. From how I see it, in ZA, the number of kills as a zombie and the duration of surviving as a hero will determine the the amount of questionites/globals awarded based on a quantum tied to the entire duration a player spends in the game be it as zombie or player. That way, as a zombie who gets no kill for the entire duration of say 20 minutes, he will get close to no rewards. Or as a player, if they want to leech, then they will still have to spend the entire duration of the game in the instance which they could also have used to gain the same amount of rewards via PvE.

    For BASH, it is based on (number of kills minus deaths multiplied)/10 by a quantum of questionites/gobals which scales to duration of time in the game. Where players whose kill is equal or less than deaths, a consolation amount of questionites/globals could be given based on the time spent.

    These two are the ones which comes to mind, making use of existing systems in the game already without having to drastically create new content etc.

    As long as the Q reward scales to time and pegged to PvE rates, this should discourage abusing of the system since it is just not worth the trouble. At the same time genuinely interested PvPers have alternative routes for obtaining the rewards which they currently can only obtain from PvE.

    The above examples reduces the possibility of leeching.

    Now the second issue of rewarding those who win as a deterrent for those without ultimate builds or are less skilful. Actually I do not see an issue with this. The reality is a large majority of players will PvP to win, especially against worthy opponents. Hence a PvP reward system which gives more rewards to the winning party is just natural. Is it not how any other competitive sports' awards system are structured? This encourage better play and improvement in skills and builds. Do we really want every Tom, **** or Harry builds to go into PvP and faceplant repeatedly just so they can get the same amount of rewards as someone who will actively fight? The purpose is not to pull every player in CO into PvP as acclaim gears did. It is to provide genuine PvPer an alternative route as I pointed out in the above paragraph.

    Also this is not really about saying that "people will only pvp if there are rewards". It has already surfaced that people are saying legion gear, devices etc requires too much grinding and farming in the HG section of the forum. This is especially a problem for PvPers who spend majority of their time fighting in rencen and spending what little Gs they have retconning all the time and do not commit much to farming the PvE aspect of the game. Hence wouldn't this help players who are in such a situation?

    Sure, there are PvPers who PvP for the sake of the experience who will PvP with or without the rewards. With rewards put in, they still will PvP right? But it also means for other players who do not mind PvPing and enjoys it but also want to farm for gear or devices that they do not have to spend double the time and I am sure you can see how this will impact those who have limited playtime each day. There is really no reason to say that PvP cannot be given comparable recognition (rewards) as the PvE aspects of the game.
  • wesleytansgwesleytansg Posts: 863 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Oh, here's another idea for rewards. Put exclusive, nice costume pieces in Acclaim store but do not make them an immediate unlock. Allow them to be sold and transferred. That way PvPer who earn enough acclaims can redeem these for themselves or they can sell them to PvEer as well. It is why I still queue Gravitar because of the costume unlocks which can be sold and also the questionite rewards after hundreds of runs.
  • jennymachxjennymachx Posts: 3,000 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Different tiers of rewards could maybe lessen the leeching.

    For those who do really well, let them earn the highest amount of questionite possible. For those who don't do well, give them questionite still but signficantly less.

    At the end of the day, I think anything is better than giving zero tangible rewards for PVP other than just doing it for the sake of fun.
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