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Seperate Crit Severity
smoochan
Posts: 2,564 Arc User
Seperate Crit Severity into Ranged Crit Severity and Melee Crit Severity.
Have Strength Spec only give melee crit severity, and ego Spec only give ranged crit severity. Dexterity can continue to give both, just less.
Just a thought.
Have Strength Spec only give melee crit severity, and ego Spec only give ranged crit severity. Dexterity can continue to give both, just less.
Just a thought.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
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'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
+ a million.
Alternatively, what if there was some mechanic that increased damaged based upon some formula that worked in contrast to your crit chance - like the lower your crit chance, the more damage this buff provides...
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
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The Ego tree can give you a boost to Crit Severity still. The inherent Crit Severity from Ego was removed.
I think the OP refers to the crit severity bonus which you can acquire from the respective spec tree skills.
Ego blades get bonus melee damage from a ranged damage bonus, the technology exists. Welcome back TK Blades.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
There has to be some downside to versatility, otherwise there's no benefit to specialization.
AoPM.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
I don't think that having a ranged attack and a melee is really more versatile than having just a ranged attack, or just a melee for that matter, in CO. In any case you have an attack which which you can readily damage your foe. Were CO's content designed a bit differently I would agree with your point. But, as designed, there is no significant (if any) advantage to the, "versatility," of spending two power picks and the requisite advantage points to do what could have been done with half the investment.
But, that opinion aside, there is already a benefit for specialization over, "versatility," built into the damage toggles.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Ego blades is dependent on getting crits, having a high crit severity and having Ego high.
And you believe that they couldn't make Ego Blades get melee crit severity from what would in all other cases be ranged crit severity, because currently it is impossible for them to implement a system where Ego Blades get a melee damage bonus from what would in all other cases be a ranged damage bonus. I understand.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Not that it matters greatly, because you can still get atleast 25% crit severity from other specs, aside from ego and str specs or dex mastery
Super Strength making your magic blasts hit harder just seems strange to me.
The fact that so many ranged builds are going primary SS Str, instead of Primary SS Ego, even though Ego also gives crit severity, means that there's a problem that needs fixing.
It's "Be the hero you want to be" not "Be the hero that you have to rationalize yourself being".
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
No, they don't. Ego Blades damage scales with Ego as if they were ranged attacks, but otherwise they still count as melee.
Laser Sword used to count as a ranged attack (for Targeting Computer), even though its damage scaled with Strength, but that was changed with the Power Armor update.
Right.... you basically just explained why this...
Isn't a problem....
and by the way... what you said is exactly the same as when I said...
Full circle.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Maybe the character punches so hard that they send shockwaves through the air that can rupture someone's pressure points and kill them before you can say "you're already dead"?
Yeah, that part is easy to solve.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Maybe they have a concept in which they're a heavy power armored tank type that shoots and can't be knocked around easily?
Not sure why that means they need to take Strength as a Primary Super Stat. That concept could easily be done with Strength as a secondary, or no strength and Constitution as a primary. The problem is, if you look at the numbers you're just plain better off ignoring your concept when you pick your super stats, and that's an issue.
The good part about picking Constitution as your primary in this case is, it doesn't skew you towards ranged or melee. If your response is "oh no, that won't do, constitution primary doesn't give any crit severity!", then you're happily proving my overall point for me.
The point of this whole thing is to create more variety, rather than "everyone take this because the other ones are numerically worse in all cases". This suggestion lets people have their stats match their concept in more cases, rather than having to get really creative to rationalize the super stats they had to pick to get the best numbers ( or more realistically, to avoid just having worse numbers for the privelage of sticking to their concept ).
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
I invite you to read the part of my post about dexterity, and to explain why you would be so loathe to pick that, or ego, as your primary attribute instead of strength.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Nah, it was the best thing that happened since on alert. I personally do not want to add 200 ego just to get severity on a toon that doesn't even have ego as it's ss.
I think the whole "idea" or w/e you may call it, behind this thread is not good.
Less QQ, more... you know. x)
Technically, yes, best thing that ever happened. You don't need to spec for damage anymore as everything you do gets you to be specced for damage. Brawlers can be tanks now and everything has massive crit severity.
I'd also like to mention that raw damage was okay to go for back then, you could be a non-crit DPS, and you could have pushed it further by sacrificating some other features for a bit of EGO, all this is gone.
The whole specialization thing, when it first came out, seemed like it was designed to give us more options and more variety. But now we see that it was rather poorly implemented and there's a lot of pointless filler in the system. The worst part about it is that, numerically, it actually encourages you to abandon any sense of your concept or creativity.
They might as well have scrapped the specialization system and instead just said "okay guys, your secondary super stats give you crit severity, and constitution gives defense...oh and defense and offense buff each other now." and we would have ended up with a more versatile system than what we have now.
The claim with specilizations was that super stat choice would be a bigger decision than it was before that would allow us to define our characters better through the numbers, rather than just being a choice "for the numbers". This didn't pan out.
One of the main focuses today is crit severity, because huge crits are a big deal for obvious reasons. That's why crit severity, and how your super stats provide it, are the first thing that needs to be looked at.
Just the fact that folks in this thread are so worried at the prospect of this change is proof that it would have an impact on how they think about super stat choices.
Yes, we all want all of our numbers to be the biggest they can be! But is that all that this game is really about for you? Having big numbers?
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
There is nothing wrong with crit severity. Show some facts. What exactly is wrong? Did you lose a duel? Ever since i played (some other game), my first rule is : never take any advice of somebody with a post count of 20 per day. People prefer strength over other stats, because it adds knock resistance, which is a good thing for pvp aswell as pve.
Where is the problem?
The problem is that you have absolutely everything on a silver platter if you choose certain stats and specs and that it's completly pointless to go for anything else unless you're a healer (And still, it might still be possible to see some STR CON INT in there too).
Yes yes, we all know that you think the game is 100% perfect and nothing should be changed because you enjoy it the way it is and that you will deliberately shut out all opposing viewpoints and pretend everyone who doesn't agree with you is just a crybaby because you don't want to accept that your viewpoint and play experience isn't the only one that matters.
I don't ever see you putting forth any proof, so I don't really see how you're in a position to demand any.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Not really, I do know what is good or bad, don't worry and your suggestion definitely is not good. It would cripple everybody's spike dmg, leading to tanks being unkillable. 1 + 1 = 2, not 3.
You should post a picture now. ~ BB is watching you, lol.
It would cripple the spike damage of those people currently using Strength as a primary stat on ranged buids... if they didn't for some reason change to either Dexterity or Ego primary super stat. I don't blame those folks for being nervous about the side effects of needing to do that, sometimes getting balanced hurts.
It would also hurt the spike damage of those melee builds using Ego as their primary super stat... oh wait, nobody does that, because nobody's interested in creatively rationalizing the concept for a melee character that has ego as a primary when there's no numerical gain involved.
Currently, 1 + 1 = 4 and 1 + 1 = 1, depending on how badly you want your 1's to look like 1's.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
So people who specialise as the opening poster wants I suppose can get their cake and eat it, but people who want to be a hybrid still have their regular stuff as they are...
That makes sense, right? I'm not much of a stat-worker-outer, it's a bit too mathsy for my nightime gaming sessions to comprehend.
This renders self heals on AT's entirely useless. Bad idea.
Besides, there are melee roles with ranged attacks. I repeat it one more time, i would
not want to add 200 ego into a non ego ss toon, just because the forum keeps on crying
for no reason.
"The battle-mage hero is so physically strong that he uses his immense strength to hurl a magical projectile with such incredible velocity that the force of impact is able to potentially cause severe internal injuries for the recipient."
There you go. I have used power-fantasy logic commonly found in superhero books to justify it. A little imagination and creativity goes a long way.
Leave crit severity alone. Let the ranged / melee hybrids enjoy a universal stat that benefits the hybrid build as a whole.
Also, could someone explain the advantage of SS'ing strength over ego for a ranged build? I only play for fun so haven't gone into any min-maxing, and only choose SS that make sense to my concept/role.
Strength grants knock resistance. It comes in quite handy in pvp aswell as pve.
Smoochan's basically saying that a toon with Strength as main SS gets to unfairly enjoy having their crit severity apply for whatever ranged attacks that toon might have. He thinks that's not logical and wants seperate crit severity ratings specifically for melee and ranged attacks, even though he doesn't realize that being a superhero is all about power fantasy and that superheroes don't have to be pigeon-holed into having specific skillsets.
There are enough examples out there in superhero pop culture who are powerful in both melee combat and energy projection. If we want to use them as templates for our own heroes, the idea of assigning different crit severity ratings for both melee and ranged works against the hybrid concept.
No.
On the first level we would need to split them by "realm", physical magic psionic and supernatural (metaphysical? divine?). Then we would need to apply ranged melee and power origin "modifiers" as appropriate, sometimes down to the separate power sets or even individual powers.
We have to "dumb down" the stats a bit to make it enjoyable instead of just hunting the right pieces of gear for ones specific build.
It has less to do with it being logical, and has more to do with the idea that a bad choice is no choice, and the specilizations system is largely filled with bad choices because primary strength/secondary con is such a great choice by comparison... with that combo, you get monster crit severity along with what amounts to two thirds of the Defiance passive, plus knockback resistance. And all this by just stacking Constitution.
What does Ego as a primary offer in comparison? Oh sure, it also has a defense thing... but you can't get nearly as much out of it, and certainly not while creating a giant pool of hit points. Oh sure, it also has a crit severity thing... but you have to put points into ego for that, meaning you cannot at the same time take advantage of the defense thing. Oh and you get some broken stun resistance.
What does Dexterity offer? A small amount of avoidance and some crit severity...it's about as limp a choice as Ego is. And that's where the problem comes in; yes, you can spend all day long rationalizing why your fireball-flinging hero is super strong and why that somehow translates into him hitting harder with fireballs, hell you can just say that he's literally throwing the fireballs, problem solved. However, that doesn't solve the real underlying problem, and that's the fact that if you don't want to have to rationalize your character like that, you have to settle for worse numbers, or just outright ignore the existence of the numbers meaning you're essentially erasing that entire part of your game expirience.
You should be rewarded for there being some sort of synergy between your concept and your choices, because that meshes with the overall point of the game; sure, for some folks this game, and likely any game they play, becomes all about sticking the various pieces together to produce the biggest numbers. It's hard to believe that the majority of the folks who play this game are here for that though... primarily because it's so easy to do and requires you to compromise so heavily on the other aspect of the game: creating characters.
On the matter of hybrids, fact is I love playing hybrids, that's why nearly all my characters are hybrids. My favorite Archetype was and always will be the Specialist for the very fact that it is a hybrid; it's the only archetype I still play simply because it's the only archetype that completely fits the role of a melee/range hybrid. Before I ever had a freeform, I would fantasize about all the fabulous hybrid characters I would make some day... and then I did it.
However, being a hybrid does not mean being equally strong in both melee and ranged. Being a hybrid means being competent in both. Some hybrids will be stronger with one or the other, some will be even with both meaning they're not as strong in either of them as a more specialized hybrid would be in one. Fact is, one of the reasons that it's currently rather meaningless to be a melee/ranged hybrid is the fact that you don't really get rewarded for "using the right tool for the right job"... really, it's any tool will do, and you're really just pretending that your character is versatile. In all cases, if you just use your ranged attacks all the time and ignore your melee attacks, you'll never really see a downside to it. I personally don't enjoy having to pretend that my choices are meaningful.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Then again I also want to bring back damage types and damage type resistance.
Making crits work worse isn't really a fix to balance to me.
I really think that EVERY SINGLE crit based specialization should be changed to an Offense Rating based specialization.
The spread between Crits and Offense is just too wide to encourage gaming variety
So this basically just boils down to you thinking that the 2-point Brutality talent in strength specialization is overpowered? I haven't looked at the numbers but it seems that it must be fantastic since they would choose that one over the 3-point Follow Through talent in ego specialization when doing a ranged build, considering that they are "gimping" their base damage by doing so. Personally I think that just adjusting the numbers would be sufficient so that ego primary would be equal to strength primary in regards to getting crit severity bonus (a.k.a 2 stat points under 2-point Brutality gives the same as 1 under 3-point Follow Through), which would mean that ego would be a better choice for ranged builds since it would also bring base damage.
However, people who min-max will always find something they can use in such a "complex" system as this one. To effectively remove it the stats would have to be brought down to DCUO's level.
A couple of things:
First, would you mind clarifying what you mean when you say that strength primary with con secondary practically gives you two-thirds of defiance? Are you just saying that it gives great defence bonus, or are you also saying it can be used to recover energy?
Second, are you arguing that str primary is better for most ranged builds, or that it is better for most hybrid builds?
Third, I feel that one of your criticisms of the Ego tree is overstated. You observe that this tree has a defensive power (Force of Will), but argue that as the crit severity power (Follow Through) is based on Ego, you cannot take advantage of both at once.
However, Ego's defensive ability has the advantage of flexibility. Force of Will is a Tier 1 power based off your superstats, while Str's equivalent ability (Juggernaut) is a Tier 2 power based off con alone. Not only does Juggernaut require a specific superstat to work, but being a teir 2 ability, it competes with both the crit severity and the crit chance powers. Ego users do not face this competition.
Forth, this is what going Ego primary gives you:
1. Innate Damage bonus to ranged attacks.
2. Innate Increased energy from blocking
3. Innate Hold resistance.
4. Spec tree Teir 1: cost discount to ranged attacks; defence bonus from superstats (alternatively, one can obtain increased offence from items and/or increased maximum energy).
5. Spec tree teir 2: Bonuses to crit chance and severity (alternatively, once can obtain a next-hit-after crit damage bonus and/or the ability to apply knock bonuses to melee attacks based on ego.)
Whether this is better or worse than what the strength tree can offer depends on one's build and preferences, but I cannot agree that this list of bonuses is so dwarfed by the benefits of a strength tree that it is a non-option.
Finally, are you taking Str for the tree advantages, but actually focusing on Con to maximise the tree's benefits? Don't get me wrong - its a valid strategy, but your argument would be much clearer if you said that.
EDIT: Forgot to mention that I agree with you - to an extent - about the Dex tree. I've tried it, but it just seems so weak. This is compounded by the fact that dex's only purpose is to give you crit chance, which stays frustratingly around the same level in the game. I cannot bring myself to keep pouring points into a stat just to stay the same.
You can get 80% defense resistence out of it. A similarly geared individual with Defiance would get 120% at full stacks. Let's crypticize that up:
80% = 45% resisted damage
120% = 55% resisted damage
It's a difference of 10%. That's a bit extreme, especially when you throw in the crit severity that you can get at the same time from the very same gear. You're basically almost getting a defensive passive, while having an offensive passive (that may itself give dodge and avoidance).
For a lark, here's what happens if you have both the spec and defiance:
200% = 77% damage resisted.
Why would you, as a tank, go Constitution spec, when this option is open to you?
As far as the energy gain, let's be real here, how many years has it been since energy management was actually an issue in this game? If anything, it's less an issue now than it ever has been; I see Energy Surge popping off in more and more alerts every day, and most of the time I can't help but laugh at how redundant it is.
Both.
Juggernaut being a tier 2 ability is meaningless, because if you're taking it ( and you will be ) then you'll be stacking Constitution, not strength, meaning the crit chance spec is useless to you. Fact is, crit chance may have actually been an issue in the past, but at the same time the specs came out, they also came out with gearing options that allow every character in the game to have a minimum of 30% crit chance. Due to this, any contribution that the crit chance spec from strength would make is dwarfed by Juggernaut; if you're squishy, the extra defense is invaluable, if you're a tank you'll happily take the extra damage resistance, and in both cases you're giddy that you get a damage boost along with the defense boost... then throw the knockback resist from Strength itself on top of that.
You say Ego has flexibility, but it's the flexibility to pick one or the other, and in the end to end up with less of both. The end result is, if you do manage to do high amounts of damage, you rip aggro and get stomped. With strength as your primary, and stacking Constitution, you can do the high damage AND survive the aggro that comes with it.
Fact is, in this game, saying "you have to stack constitution" is a demand with no downside. The one thing that Ego has to its credit is the ability to buff the next two attacks after you crit by 30% of your severity... is this worth giving up a massive hit point pool stacked with near DP levels of mitigation? In which part of the game do you benefit more from this extra damage than you would the ability to survive the aggro?
1. Diminishing returns. Makes this mostly meaningless, as does the game's content... repeat question: In which part of the game do you benefit more from this small amount of extra damage than you would the ability to survive the aggro? Furthermore, AoPM.
2. Energy management hasn't been an issue in this game for years... do people really still block for energy?
3. Broken resistance for a broken mechanic. Worthless when compared to any amount of knock resistance. You can pop your active defense to get out of holds; in pve, holds are rare and when they do happen you barely notice...especially if you're Strength spec with con stacked.
4. Cost discount... again with the energy. The cost discount is worthless ( trust me, that 30% discount to all your ranged powers? it's not actually 30%, it's way way less ). Increased maximum energy? Again with the energy...and from stacking Recovery. These are good examples of options that aren't really options, but rather are traps for those who don't bother to check how they really effect the numbers.
5. Yes, dat flexibility again... you can pick between severity, defense, or knock bonuses to melee! Or you could go Strength and have all of the above wrapped up into one neat package. The crit chance is only an option if you're looking for a slight dps increase at the cost of much better options.
The problem is, this really does apply to all builds because of the "all-in-one" nature of Strength spec.
That's the general idea. Which leads to another issue... to get the best out of being super strong, you're not even stacking strength. Go figure.
Please refer to this anytime you or I mentioned specs that give crit chance in this post.
PS - poor other attribute spec trees... they don't even get a mention because they're even worse.
Some sort of adjustment is required. The idea behind how Ego is setup is okay... you're ranged, so you have to pick between massive spikes and massive defense. The problem comes from the fact that to be an effective ranged character, you don't even have to bother with Ego, meaning you can be ranged and take strength, and get all the benefits that were intended for melee characters (high damage + high defense, because they have to close distance in pvp and have to stand close to the danger in pve) along with the benefits of being ranged ( don't have to close distance, don't have to stand close to danger). That's why there needs to be some sort of meaningful range/melee seperation... it can't really be done with the defense ( ranged defense? melee defense? who gets more of what? ) so the next logical thing to look at is severity, especially when you consider the impact that severity has on the game in both pvp and pve. If you were to just buff Ego up to give the same benefits as Strength, then you may have made Ego a viable choice, but at the same time you've made Melee an even worse choice.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Offense is fine the way it is. Linear damage bonuses would be overpowered. If it ain't fixed, don't break it! =P
spreads between offense and crit???
Offense and crit are 2 different stats.
That's cute... that you have no idea what he's talking about and pointed out something he clearly already knows... and in fact is intrinsic to the point he's making.
He's saying that there's no longer a reason to make sheer damage builds. Which is true, since everyone has crits now, and the specialization system is littered with crit severity which isn't hit by diminishing returns the way offense, super stats, and str/ego damage bonuses are.
That offense from Tenacity is actually only giving you a few percent damage increase because you have so much offense already.
Remember when people didn't build their damage entirely around crits?
Do you?
Sure.. if you consider "everyone has tons of it, and nobody has to give up crit chance and severity whatsoever to go deep into offense diminishing returns, so offense is as much a factor now as it was before on alert" as fine.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
That said, it's hard to talk about stat effects without a context. On paper the Strength Tier 2s (T2s) sound strong, but they're not necessarily ideal for all ranged DPS builds.
For example, a primary Int build with Revitalize and Radiance or Wrist Bolter + AA rotating between Masterful Dodge and Eruption can arguably get better survivability even though it has lower Damage Resistance on paper.
A Quarry build will benefit more from Ego/Int/X than Str/Con/X as its superstats (although Ego/Int/X may not necessarily be the most optimal choice either)
An Ice Form/Ice Blast build gets more advantage from primary Ego, Rec, Int or Dex because it needs higher crit chance to reduce downtime between Cold Snap procs.
A Force Det/Force Cascade build may want Ego for the knock strength, and with knock CC it can forgo a bit of defense.
And so on and so forth.
But honestly, if it were up to me, I'd do something like "If you pick X as your primary stat, X will give (this new secondary effect), and your secondary superstats will give (some other secondary effect)". Then do linear specialization trees, like every 1 point into Vindicator gives 1% Crit Severity, at 5 points you get something shiny that does not scale with any stat, at 10 points you cap Vindicator and get another shiny that also doesn't scale with stats.
Also Forms creates a too close disparity between Offensive and Defensive players, offensive players get no real benefits beside the extra multiplicative value on their role sinds defensive builds can get almost the same amount of dmg bonus trough forms but at the same time have a ton more surviability.
A way to partialy resolve this issue would be to turn the Forms (toggles) into base multiplicative value with extra benefits to specific sets a bit how the TK set toggle works right now. By doing this you remove the insane layer of damage bonus players have, making offense more powerfull because it isn't imediatly hitting the diminushing returns cap and also because the multiplicative value of that kind of toggle would add extra power to that same effect, this would also create a biger disparity between offense and defensive players and maybe fix PVP a bit sinds the overall imbalance between damage and defense would be greater depending your role. The overall dmg would be reduced, but who needs to have 8000dps on a character anyways?