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Gas Pellets + Strafing Run. *HOT-BUG*
honestresearcher
Posts: 657 Arc User
Gas Pellets + Strafing Run when used and Critical-Hit, cause ALL of the power to Critical-Hit continueously, causing the power to be overly powerful.
This IS a bug because previously this problem existed with Sigils of Primal Storm, which was later fixed because the power was simply overperforming.
Devs confirmed this behaviour to be un-intended and the problem has arisen again with these two powers, which are doing the same thing, only far greater output than the sigils.
VIDEO OF THE PROBLEM AND ITS EFFECTS IN GREATER DETSAIL: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbcdVgtwhy0
This IS a bug because previously this problem existed with Sigils of Primal Storm, which was later fixed because the power was simply overperforming.
Devs confirmed this behaviour to be un-intended and the problem has arisen again with these two powers, which are doing the same thing, only far greater output than the sigils.
VIDEO OF THE PROBLEM AND ITS EFFECTS IN GREATER DETSAIL: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbcdVgtwhy0
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Now let's consider a revitalize + ego surge build. Near perma ego surge probably won't see much of a difference.
Now a non-revitalize ego surge build may at most benefit from 7 crit ticks from pellets if they hit precisely the second before it ends. A crit dps likely already has half the opportunity to crit, so it's 3.5 extra crit hits and then you subtract say half the damage where a non crit would normally do given a 100% severity. Or with heavy cooldown reduction, you may get at best 4 crit ticks from overlapping the 7 outside of ego surge, which you then subject to the above calculaion as well.
That doesn't sound as broken as it's made to be believed.
The issue I assume you (and others) have with these 2 powers is the damage they do when they DO crit.
And this is where the devs need to decide, given that they are passive damage attacks, should they be considered psuedo summons like sigils, where they don't crit at all? Or bring it more in line with other passive on click AOEs like Flashfire (which by the way crits on activation the same way all of these do, so it isn't a pellets/SR bug), and reduce the base damage directly.
Since they work in the same way as any on click AOE power, it seems that they do work as intended. What remains to be argued is probably balancing damage, which is tricky business already since many powers will come to mind.
Its 8x Gas Arrow, which can crit, has a shorter cooldown, just too much.
It shouldnt crit, because it causes further broken results when mixed with AoED which chain-reacts because Gas Pellets critting, crits 100% continuously, makeing AoED overreact with it.
Stopping Gas Pellets from critting fixes it. As for Gas Arrow, its too weak but thats a whole nother topic.
AoED + commander is as specific a build as revitalise + ego surge to capitalise on powers. (FotM builds will always exist.) This particular one stems from pellets actually being considered summoned pets by AoED, while at the same time is an on click attack.
gas pallets hits harder than gas arrow on the base amount, when they changed gas arrow and all the psuedo pets(thanks to you snake) they also nerfed gas arrow, as in lowered it's dmg.
simply removing gas pallets's ability to crit seems to be the best solution to this, tho im sure you'll still be able to pull crazy numbers with ice form...
speaking of psuedo pets, fire snake still crits for about 800's...
as for strafing fun(run)? i'd give it a fire all weapons cooldown, seems fitting to me, then even revitilize builds won't exploit it to all hell.
thanks again snake :rolleyes:
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Balancing them based on FotM builds is simply removing the competition but doesn't fix the fundamental issue. For example, one can keep crying nerf on the next hardest hitting power or devices on a near perma ego surge build. Another who uses the same power but not the build will take a nerfbat for nothing. We should instead look into plugging the loopholes in them to bring them within reason. For one, why is pellets considered summoned pets by AoED, when it should simply be an on click AOE.
That answer is simply lazy coding. The new powers have very specific characteristics introduced but integrated on existing power frameworks (hence my complaints on bugged boomerangs).
The better option here is fix pellets with AoED.
Now if anyone then still feel they are dealing more damage then they should on legit average or thematic builds, the better solution will then be to reduce base damage.
Why? Because everyone should be able to pick them as a viable on click AOE, and players who decide to have some amount of crit chance should not be penalised, and should actually be rewarded with the corresponding benefit crit damage provides. This is balancing it for the masses.
SR is a good example that should be balanced this way, a power costing as much as Defile should crit hit like Defile and not Force Cascade. Increasing it's CD is plausible too. Pellets has about double the base damage amongst click AOEs of it's type, but it should probably just work as a single AOE, instead of being segregated.
Then again, even starter and tier 1 powers have their cream of the crop, 2GM, AR, LA, DE etc.
For on click AOEs like SR, it is not that different from unleashed rage except the damage is split over time, and you have only 1 chance to dodge UR but a better chance to mitigate partial damage from SR. Sounds good for the player on the receiving end, not that it would matter to those with near perma MD or eruption.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbcdVgtwhy0
first post updated to include video.
As a result, it's very easy to get ludicrous DPS on testing dummies which is not indicative of damage dealt outside the PH.
For example, you can push NPGs to 40k DPS, but they don't do nearly that much throughout most of the game.
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Sure, but that's not what Vixy is referring to. To clarify a bit, I am sure that you would agree that in cases where debuffs and/or buffs are used it is highly important to include the timeframe over which DPS is being measured in order to make sure that a comparison is apples to apples.
For any given build, DPS measured over 12 seconds is very different than DPS measured over 1 minute which is also different than DPS measured over 5 minutes.
Generally people discuss these differences in terms of "burst" DPS vs "sustained" DPS. However there is a wide range in between.
The point about test dummies is that their lack of HP forces this duration over which DPS is being measured to be very low. And that low duration makes a fair comparison difficult....because they die before you have to refresh your debuff/AO rotation.
This difference is further amplified when comparing to performance outside of the PH because then you also have to account for rotating ADs, getting knocked/interrupted etc.
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Spectre beats Eido in an SG run: VIDEO HERE
When it comes to time, do i want to beat a Dummy in 3.5 seconds (Pellets), or 110 seconds (arrow).
I can use the pellets in any situation even though it looks like an AoE, it is too easy to concentrate into a tight DPS pool by manipulating the landscape or area.
Mobs just run at you, or shoot from a distance, but you can pull those with powers or just going round a corner or trashcan.
When soloing elite mobs in TT, I do not have the luxury of positioning or remaining still, neither when teaming to control that environment as I please. At best these mobs get a few ticks of pellets at a time while chasing me around (I have no con).
Soloing any other difficulty, I can combine pellets with a few taps of another aoe to kill mobs outright on the spot. I'm pretty sure the time and effort to lure enitre mobs round a corner to hit them with 6+ pellets against mobs with so little hp to withstand a few taps or charges of another power when parsed doesn't provide as desirable a dps as the alternative (or anywhere near the test dummy).
I have tried suggesting for consideration aspects that can be used by thread starter to make the appropriate arguments for balancing, to get down to whats fundamental eg. pellets working as pets? looking at base damage, and pellets as a single aoe by size. Most of it just fell on deaf ears.
So in point, what's needed is another gas arrow. I can at least hope that Gas Arrow, a power considered under-performing by some can get a needed buff after this.
Ugh... Come on Cryptic... WTF...
:mad:
THIS POST IS WORTH IT'S WEIGHT IN GOLD. QFT!
A very good point. I always test my builds by dueling with friends, and by using the Battlestation, before finalizing them and leaving the powerhouse. Often times I'll find something that looked effective on the dummies was utter crap in a real combat scenario.
Cosmic bosses like Clarence that Vixy most likely used this combo attack on (and then bragged about it on the forums) are not actually what you encounter most often.
Ultimately it all comes back to what I highlighted from Wimpazoid's post above. The underlying problem comes down a number of things, but mainly these three:
A) Champions has freeform, which allows for interactions between stacks, buffs, debuffs, etc. that wasn't thought of by the devs initially.
C) Cryptic lacks a unifying formula baseline. The Scourge and Night Avenger archetypes are prime examples of this. Look how insanely overpowered these two were when they first came out. Initial Epidemic? Initial Ricochet Throw? Need I say more? Initial Gigabolt's Death Arc advantage? Cryptic is, frankly, stupid as hell when it comes to bringing out a new powerset that isn't broken when it's first released. This shows clearly they don't have a baseline for performance when doing QA testing (assuming they do ANY testing).
Good point, but I think he/she already knows that. The key part of Wimpazoid's argument, I feel, is what I QFT'ed above.
Consolidate the currencies! (Please!)
Does your Champion have a theme song? (share it!)
Got a funny in-game screenshot? (share it!)
Please fix the Overdrive energy unlock! (Should help promote thematic build diversity!)
Okay sure, but only average DPS over the course of the time it took to kill the test dummy. The DPS figures would be, presumably, lower if the dummy had 1 million hp and you measured them over that period of time instead.
Or just 1 second with Shadowstrike (i.e. a DPS of 30-40k). But Shadowstrike's DPS measured over the course of 5 minutes is going to fall far short of 40k.
While that is an extreme example, the same applies to just about any DPS measurement.
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Spectre beats Eido in an SG run: VIDEO HERE
Basic statistics math. Yep.
In science we often come up with experimental "standards" which are specific ways in which you test something so that you can do comparisons more fairly, no matter the context.
A real world example is fire rating on materials. It's tested by shooting a flamethrower or woodcrib fire of a known wattage at the surface and measuring a degree temperature rate. A real fire would have a totally unknown wattage, and would be varying as the fire progresses. If the killing factor is smoke fumes (i.e.: carbon monoxide), then it really doesn't matter how much heat is transferred through the wallboards. It matters what the context is. You can't just assume "well these walls are fire rated for 2 hours so I'm safe for 2 hours".
Consolidate the currencies! (Please!)
Does your Champion have a theme song? (share it!)
Got a funny in-game screenshot? (share it!)
Please fix the Overdrive energy unlock! (Should help promote thematic build diversity!)
This is very true, these powers came with the Night Avenger AT, which has a nifty stealth gimmick and is a dex/crit heavy paper dps. Take away the crits and all you have is paper. But they do want to sell ATs.
An AT is essentially the typical average build.
Its hard to tell from the vid but the damage done by strafing run didn't seem all that bad.
Also for terms of proving if something is OP or not I really wish people would use the powers as close to naked as they can by this I mean if your showing how OP gas pellets because it can crit for sill amounts don't muddy the data by buffing it with other powers.
Just look at your build it was using Ice form which boost elemental damage and also (unless its changed) boost crit if thats the case your in my view swaying the numbers
demonstrate the same with no passive.
Same for stats and specs they could have a pretty big effect on a powers performance high dex = more frequent crit, high ego = greater ranged damage boost, high Int = lowered cool downs
basically I would like to see then numbers from just pellets vs A selection of other similar powers not just gas arrow (which could as easily be under performing as pellets are over performing)
Actually yes & no on the yellow part I highlighted.
Yes they want to sell them, but they've not been consistent with that. Tempest for example is gimped. Impulse is a joke.
Consolidate the currencies! (Please!)
Does your Champion have a theme song? (share it!)
Got a funny in-game screenshot? (share it!)
Please fix the Overdrive energy unlock! (Should help promote thematic build diversity!)
Firstly, they are working like pets and getting boosted by AoED.
(This to me should be fixed since they are obviously NOT pets.)
Secondly, instead of individual crit calculation, once it crits, all crit.
(This fix, I think is optional because in the long run, the calculation should even out.)
Thirdly, it is instead of acting like a single AoE, is behaving like multiple small AoEs.
(This is where the major problem comes from. It allows damage up to 8 times what it should be doing against large targets. As Wimpazoid pointed out, there is no need to look at small targets especially mobs since there are much easier ways to kill them fast instead of trying to kite them to a suitable location while Gravitar is not very mobile. It must also be taken into consideration that the energy cost of gas pellet is much higher than gas arrows. Having said that, it is still true to say that the gas pellet is outperforming by a lot. Furthermore, this is enhanced by the fact that it is a click, fire and forget power leaving players to launch many other attacks while the pellets damage away.)
If anything, I suggest that when a single target receives damage from multiple pellets, the damage of remaining pellets beyond the first could be reduced. This way, it does not take away the special element of the game play of getting multiple pellets to hit a target while still controlling the damage output to a reasonable amount. That said, we must still pitch the damage output of the pellets to the energy cost.
It is easy to call nerf or buff but it is difficult to do it sensibly, appropriately and technically.
Oh 1 more thing, I can never understand the poison working on robot thing. At least if they put it as acid damage instead of poison it makes more sense.
Totes p'totes. Not limited to Gas Pellets though. All pseudo-pets appear to be affected.
Vixy would agree regarding the optionality of this fix if there was no way to guarantee crits. But Nimble Mind ensures that even if you pop Pellets at the end of its duration they will all crit.
Also not limited to Gas Pellets. Firesnake and some other "dots" behave the same way. Which makes a fix even more important.
Yarrr!
Vixy thinks that with those 3 things fixed we'll be able to actually evaluate Gas Pellet's performance vs other powers on more even ground.
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You're leaving out ticks from previously activated Pellets which would fall outside of Nimble Mind's duration. The boost to DPS is sizable.
Assuming the fix is made and crit chance is re-calculated for each tick, what matters is how many Pellet ticks occur during Nimble Mind, not the number of power activations.
Yes. If a fix goes through, revitalize will be a more optimal choice, but as things stand it's not needed.
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Spectre beats Eido in an SG run: VIDEO HERE
Ahh yes, you mean for those with very high cooldown and can use the pellets many times within the 15 seconds of ego surge+nimble mind. Now that you mentioned. You are right.
your comparission is off:
your avg gas arrow dmg is without firesnake, and you had no fott stacks(i know they barely affect GA)
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Gas Arrow vs Gas Pellets (Factor in your own critical severity for the pellets)
Multiple attack points.
Walk 3 feet -> negated all damage
Damage-over-time dealing damage every second.
Cannot produce a critical return
Has a Perception debuff that doesn't work on legendary+
Strafing Run vs Orbital Cannon (Factor in your own critical severity for the two)
Hella Long casting time and double the actual time needed for the satellite to target the point.
Walk 5 feet -> negated all damage
Multiple attack points
Rng loves to hate you
Edit: Well there is a 4 img limit for posts SO I cannot show you the force cascade BUT here it is if you are curious
I, however considered that in my 1st reply to this thread. I will give a theoretical example using ayonachan's figure of 900 (rounded) damage, but will use a 4s CD instead (4s is considered heavy CD redux, 3s is extreme CD redux at work, be it gear, stat stacking or otherwise specialisation).
Conditions:
-no dex, only heroic gloves of precision + r5 gambler's ~30.5%
-900 dmg per second ticks
-100% severity
-ideal scenario with no latency and interruptions
-not a revitalise build
-ego surge is rank 2, lasts for 15s
-nimble mind raises crit chance to 100%
-heavy CD redux possible on heroic gear and r5 mods, high int (over 300) and no specialisations, 4s on pellets, 35s on ego surge
10 crit ticks outside of ego surge, 3 removed due to 30% crit chance = 7 extra crits
Given 100% severity minus the 900 dmg from a normal hit = 7x900 = 6300 extra damage
Repeatable occurance every 35s = 6300/35 = 180 dps extra
180 dps occuring in a repeatable period, means an avg of 180 extra dps no matter the duration of the fight.
This however is an ideal scenario, having a crit chance higher than 30% will lower it. Latency and opportunity cost of using other powers or blocking will lower it. Interruptions from cc will lower it. Less than 100% severity will lower it. Not activating pellets exactly as ego surge ends will lower it. Not having a 100% crit chance with nimble mind will lower it. Having lesser CD redux will lower it, and other circumstantial reasons.
Means in real world, the extra dps doesn't even come close to 180. Granted 180 is a nice figure for free, if it ever really hits that figure.
Saying this power is broken and OP by the way it crits is a weak argument compared to my suggestion of fixing the most glaringly fundamental issue, the AOE behaviour, followed by the rest.
What you should actually note is that video doesn't show the argument it was made to support in the 1st post. It isn't explicit, how the crit chance determined on activation has caused pellets to be overpowered.
It however shows how pellets' AOE behavior can be abused in confined space. Something others already mentioned to thread starter should be the overriding issue.
QFT. Except the power in question here isn't critting on every hit. A subsequent activation has the exact same chance to crit as the previous activation, determined by the player's crit chance. (As mentioned before, the power has the same mathematical crit chance).
Now, one can design a build to have said power to crit 100% all the time. I can even say that I've never had to fire a force cascade that didn't crit 100% before the imbue nerf. Some consider such builds exploitation.
Do we call a nerf on said power, or do we examine the build for the loophole, because I remember clearly having to retcon my build to something else, but there was no changes to force cascade.
Have we also decided that any power used on a perma ego surge build that critting all of the time means it's broken and should not crit (according to yours and thread starter's logic)?
I'm also inexperienced with pets, so I'm assuming pets' crit chance are determined by player's (correct me if I'm wrong). So if one can revitalise a perma 80% crit chance then apply Create an opening for a theoretical 100%, does that mean all pets are broken and should not crit?
No idea what this is.
How are you getting only 10 crit ticks outside of Ego Surge?
In your scenario above, you can activate GP 4 times during Nimble Mind. Each Pellet ticks every sec. There are 8 Pellets.
8 ticks per second per activation.
Vixy is not able to open up CO atm, but assuming that duration of GP is 8 secs....each activation results in 64 ticks.
So currently, 4 GPs x 64 ticks = 256 ticks guaranteed to crit.
Now let's look at it if crit chance was applied to every tick instead of every activation. NM = Nimble Mind.
1st GP is activated at 0 secs of NM = 64 crit ticks (lasts until 8th sec of NM)
2nd is at 4 secs = 64 crit ticks (lasts until 12th sec of NM)
3rd is at 8 secs = 56 crit ticks (lasts until 1 secs after NM is down)
4th is at 12 secs = 24 crit ticks (lasts until 5 secs after NM is down)
Running total so far...208 ticks. Assuming that you are hitting GP every 4 secs, you will also have some GPs running prior to NM's activation - let's add those in as well.
4 secs prior to NM = 32 crit ticks (lasts until 4th sec of NM)
Total ticks under NM = 240
So the actual difference is 256-240 = 16 ticks
It's not just this power - hence the need for a fix.
Vixy doesn't agree that the correct fix is for Pellets and other powers like them to not crit. Just like it was incorrect for Sigils. The right fix is to calculate crit chance on every tick.
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I was under the impression that it ticks per second (screenshot on previous page), and I last recall it giving me 8 ticks per pellet (8s). (Likewise I did not launch CO to confirm.)
I gave the example of a single pellet to provide an unbiased assessment of the effect of its crit chance behavior. As explained the segregation of 8 pellets is an issue in itself, a major one. Without it, probably some of you won't even be concerned with the crit behavior. Other than the exception of an enemy large enough for all 8 pellets to hit or have them exploited to be confined to a single spot, the 8 pellets do not compound.
Hrm you may be correct, Vixy just read off of the wiki.
Given that you state your results in terms of DPS output instead of a % difference, the use of a single Pellet severely understates the effect of the problem.
That exemption is the only place where any of this matters.
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Making it the larger issue, no?
For Pellets alone yes. But once you include other powers which are affected by this behavior then no.
To clarify, the issue that Vixy is citing is not that GP's crit chance is set at activation. It's that all power's crit chance is set at activation.
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....im done, you guys spiral this into stupidness and carry on bandwagonning to keep your broken crap or just being anti-vet. Im really fed up of you guys and this whole community not knowing enough about all the powers before you flood the forums with bs. 100% Crit Chance (constant, no ego surge) is very much alive.
That, and there's no pleasing you, no matter what i say no matter how much i SHOW it to you to your face, i could plow solid physical evidence by the truck load, and you just wont get it, like...theres something wrong up their in the brain, that wont accept anything especially if it's from THAT guy who goes to a length (UNLIKE ANYONE ELSE NUDGE NUDGE) to get #### done!
You and a lot of this community are a poison to the game.
Im trying to do this game a favor and youre like "anything everyone else suggests will never work unless its something i said", cant believe i stuck around for 3 and a half years.
...are you serious. How about this, go to the length i have to prove a point instead of muttering "but this, but that" ffs. GROW UP. Got a problem? DO IT YOURSELF THEN!!!!
It is a near INSTANT CAST you can easily get hitting for around 45,000, that costs LESS THAN HALF THE ENERGY of Force Cascade, and does FAR MORE DAMAGE than it.
This is what im sick of...people who dont know enough about the capability of all the powers in the game (with/without synergies), and come on complaining and trolling JUST SO THEY CAN KEEP THEIR BROKEN POWER. Go away!
Screw this infinite battle against stupidity, i dont even know why i gave you guys a 10th chance, you aint changing anytime soon to better the game.
you will never be happy, no matter what anyone else actually bothers to do to help the game, you just whine away.
Bear in mind, I'm not against your stance if individual crits for all of them powers.
I've only showed thread starter and kaizerin, that this crit behavior isn't cause to remove crits completely.
Oh...my...freaking....god...you....are....unbelievable.
The gaspellets page is really derpy.
They should fire whoever made that.
<.< >.>
I'd rather get STO's level of lockbox suck if worthwhile updates come with it. -Buxom
Is it O-K for a power to have more than 1 attack point? Is it O-K for each attack point to have the ability to crit? Is it O-K for the odds in the rng to be overly stacked within the favor of the player?
Remember: NPCs are only as smart as the system allows and the system is only as merciful as the coders allow it to be. And these coders are on the same boat as the people before them who said YES to legacy devices stacking(as well as that one 'feature' within nemcon) and NO to chain holds(as well as the, now, replaced 'reward' from bloodmoon).
Can you clarify what you mean here?
Vixy's opinion is that all powers should be allowed to crit and their base damage/healing should be modified to account for their ability to crit. This allows more powers to be used in more builds.
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So we are arguing to upkeep something we think is wrong to make the game better (as thread starter puts it)?
If the only option here is to adhere to this path, then why should and would you expect anything to be different in any time frame for a better solution to be arrived at?
Ah, but your previous sentiment in your explanation (and this one) does imply hope for a better solution, but are unwilling to voice out change, but rather passively hope some dev becomes aware without anyone bring them up.
I've been pretty clear so far, my replies suggesting further considerations are in context to thread poster's argument. Replying in context, in no way means that I think this is the one power that needs balancing.
C'mon, I doubt you seriously believe that. If it were, you have just invalidated many of your own opinions in this forum, be it balancing powers, hero games, devices. For what reasons do we raise them if not for another to listen and consider.
What I'd like to see as a fix would be to make the power make one big gas cloud instead of many smaller ones that may stack. Additionally, determining crit per tick instead of at activation should happen (with all powers, not just Gas Pellets). Adjusting of Gas Pellets' base damage may be necessary to keep the power useful.
Actually I think the crit behaviour is not what is making GP OP. It is having 8 of them hitting 1 target which basically multiplies its damage 8 fold effectively. One way as you suggest is to make it act like 1 big cloud but the base damage may need to be increased to justify its energy cost and usefulness. I personally prefer and have suggested that the 8 different attacks be kept (it is a very unique quality requiring some strategy to utilize against smaller enemies) but set it such that all additional pellets deals perhaps 10% or 20% of the damage of the first.
Kaizerin, I beg to differ in what we suggest as fixes here. Just because the devs may take a easy way out to fixing powers, does not mean we should just go along and not suggest more appropriate solutions even if they may be convoluted. I mean look at imbue for example, an ONH power with gauranteed crit has been changed into an AO which is still broken instead of heals and a few other powers consuming it.
Sure, it will be fine to fix the crit mode so that each pellet and each hit is rolled separately. However it is not the crux of it being OP. To prevent it from critting is also not the crux of it being OP. So if we wish anything to be fix, then we should suggest how it be solved properly. It is up to the devs how much and how well they can implement it.
Still that is what the devs will have to decide to do but we still suggest what should be a proper fix. As I said, sure they can go ahead and fix the crit for GP, but end of the day it is not the crit that makes it OP it is 8 pellets hitting a single target for 8x full damage vs crit which can give what 2.5x probably with severity of 150%.
Ahhh, I may have missed that post then, apologies. However, I really like the idea where many pellets hitting one target will actually do more damage. It adds a new dimension to the game play. It is how to implement this without being OP and I suggested perhaps additional pellet damage should be only about 10 to 20 percent each.
Then simply consider the multiple posters who suggested it are trying to get it re-evaluated then.
You have made your stance known, and others have the general opposing opinion. Everything can be left at that.
It is up to the devs, whether to lazy fix it or listen to feedback (because others still feel it's worthwhile to speak up).