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What is content?
smoochan
Posts: 2,564 Arc User
Let's nail down a definition so we can stop arguing about what it means.
Is content:
A) Anything that is a part of the game, no matter how large or small.
Anything that you can participate in, such as alerts, missions, zones, and lairs. Not costume packs, vehicles, and other non-participatory items.
C) Zones, missions, and lairs only. Alerts are not content, and neither are vehicles etc.
D) Only stuff I want is content, everything else is garbage.
So ya... vote.. discuss... do what ya do.
Disclaimer: I'm not sure... but I think this may be an excersize in irony. Guess that's up to the responses lol.
Is content:
A) Anything that is a part of the game, no matter how large or small.
Anything that you can participate in, such as alerts, missions, zones, and lairs. Not costume packs, vehicles, and other non-participatory items.C) Zones, missions, and lairs only. Alerts are not content, and neither are vehicles etc.
D) Only stuff I want is content, everything else is garbage.
So ya... vote.. discuss... do what ya do.
Disclaimer: I'm not sure... but I think this may be an excersize in irony. Guess that's up to the responses lol.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Post edited by smoochan on
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But come on, really? *Everyone* knows what people are asking for when they ask for more content in this game, this should not be something we need to hash out a clear cut definition for, it's obvious. The only people who are splitting hairs over this definition are the people who are going to defend the game's direction anyway they can, even by using this definition to make people think they are getting something they are not.
And for those who need it spelled out:
This is also something that has been explained several times in other threads.
Personally, for me its "B" with a hint of "C" (I don't consider Alerts as they are currently implemented to be full fledged "content"), but I will take "C" if given the choice.
EDIT:
This^ too, but those threads are now burried in time... or are they?
While one could quote the dictionary definition as "proof" that content is anything in the game, definitions get reworked constantly in popular culture, so I am not sure that would be a valid argument.
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Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
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Indeed.
people around here who like to correct you about that this isnt corrent or doesn't count for all
and things like that. Much like you should never use words like always without a (nearly)
in front of it or say worlds like all .. and even words like most could be wrong if you can't
represent real statistics.
So .. for maybe some people content means playable content
for some other its maybe grabbags, lockboxes and vehicles
At least before they finally released the vehicles it seems that i was in a minority as somebody
who was not in favour of them. Looks as minds have changed these days, but of course we
have no numbers, so who knows if not the big majority is totally happy :rolleyes:
Abandoned within weeks of opening.
Done once, rarely to be returned to again.
See above. Basically you just listed a ton of work for little payoff. Few new players will be brought in, if any, and we'll be back to the same complaints a month or so later.
Bingo. This is why I think Cryptic is ahead of the curve: Why toil away creating content when you can let your players do most of the heavy lifting for you?
Now its just a matter whether that curve reaches us here in Millenium City or not.
Content is that which gives me something to do when I am logged into the game.
Lock boxes are not content as their inclusion doesn't give me more things to do.
(I don't count "buy something from the cash shop" as "something to do".)
Costumes are content as their inclusion does give me more things to do.
(I do count "edit my costumes because I got new pieces to play with" as "something to do".)
Vehicles are content as their inclusion does give me more things to do. I don't especially enjoy said content as I think the vehicles as implemented are fancy become devices (and I don't like become devices), but they remain content.
Etc, etc, etc ...
There is no such thing as a free lunch. If you aren't paying for it, you aren't the customer; you are the product being sold.
Dollar, dollar, bill, yo. Cash rules everything around you and me.
Only if they insist on making it non-repeatable content and don't give us some alternate reason(s) to go back there once done (such as costume piece farming, special events available through the zone, including Open Missions [which should scale to level and give us more worthwhile rewards so we have an actual incentive to keep doing them], Lairs and Alerts, decent RP locations, etc.)
Doesn't really apply to Lairs if they are engaging enough and provide worthwhile rewards to provide an incentive to play and repeat them, since they're already repeatable content. They provide little payoff if not done correctly and can help retain new players they manage to bring in, as well as bring back some of the older ones that left because they were dissatisfied with the lack of (playable) content.
Also, people ALWAYS complain in MMOs. Stopping development because people might still whine won't stop that.
I don't necessarily disagree with the merits of this part, but don't believe that relying entirely on USG is the answer to this game's problems. EDIT: Also, "we'll be back to the same complaints a month or so later" is also applicable to this one, as can be seen on the STO forums. And in the spirit of clarification of the thread...
"Worthwhile" Rewards: XP and loot of comparable quantity and quality to that gained by regular missions and proportional to the amount of time and degree of difficult involved to complete the content, as well as rewards usuable/desirable to characters of ALL levels so that level capped characters have an incentive to participate.
Alerts are content. They're bite size content that's amusing as a one off while you're doing other stuff, or maybe when you're looking for a fun battle with your favorite villain.
Adventure Packs are content, as are Comic Series which are more or less the same thing spread out. These are your super duper special story arcs, sort of like the various sagas 90s Saturday morning cartoons would dive into from time to time.
Zone content is your meat and potatoes. This stuff is comparable to what most of your Sat Morning Cartoon material was made of. The X-Men weren't always fighting Pheonix, for instance, but the show always followed a progression of sorts, usually small arcs that lead up to a big battle with a known villain, before restarting the cycle.
What is not "content,' would be stuff like Vehicles, a feature, or costume pieces, which are cosmetics and fluff. Content can be integrated with this stuff, working with it or providing it as rewards, or whatever. But it's not the same thing.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
The new Dark Astoria had quite a bit of what you indicate above, and even then it was still a ghost town save for iTrial queues.
New content gets devoured and, unless you can farm it effectively for shinies, gets abandoned within weeks. Its way of how these things go.
The problem with all of what you're asking for, is that you're asking for a dev staff on par with what CoX had and STO currently has. Now the question is can you justify a staff of 50 to 60 for CO? And you won't be growing popularity, at best you're further slowing down player loss.
What the Foundry does is that it gives you a huge selling point that may actually bring in and retain more players, all the while keeping development costs low because now most of the content is in the hands of the players.
As long as it's content that can be used as an alternate leveling path. If it's just questionite then UGC would be a waste of dev resourses as it'll just be abandonded as it is in STO.
If there had never been a COH there would never have been a CO. :cool:
Funny, I recall it being anything other than a ghost town, and I'm not just remembering the iTrial queues. What server were you on?
This...
I always saw the place full of people and not just for iTrials.
But then again Virtue had a high population.
I don't disagree with this either, and that is part of the reason I've been supporting the Foundry lately--I don't have any illusions that we'll actually get any of that any time soon (if ever), so give us some UGC tools at least. But still, ideally speaking that is what I would like, and believe that it is some of the things that this game needs to get back on track (playable) content-wise.
Also agree with this^
As a counter-point, I'll go back to the current popularity of Alerts at endgame and all the 'yes, please' responses to the petition thread. IMO, a setting like Champions or D'n'D would be far more fertile for a Foundry than Star Trek.
See, that's the problem with "everybody knows" - often, it turns out that everybody knows different things...
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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I was on Virtue, and the crowds were always around the portals waiting for the next iTrial to queue. I rarely saw players in DA outside of that cluster.
Well, my Incarnates were on Champion, and I always saw other players outside that cluster.
We need both. The UCG should cater to BOTH questionite farming and as a alternate leveling path.
But I'd argue an alternate leveling path is more needed.
I'd prefer actual endgame contant to be dev created content for my level 40s. Ofcourse I don't run Alerts at 40.
If there had never been a COH there would never have been a CO. :cool:
That's cause the rewards for doing the content in DA were glacial compared to doing iTrials . .. which was the fault of the devs who builit it that way.
Then again endgame content is it's own beast.
I'd prefer more focus be on actual additional leveling paths, as you can tell from my responses in this thread.
If there had never been a COH there would never have been a CO. :cool:
I think you need to go back and read what I said, because your response does not make sense in context.
Should have clarified, that was a response to the idea that the content in the zone wasn't done much. Probably shouldn't have quoted you when stating that. :biggrin:
If there had never been a COH there would never have been a CO. :cool:
If we could have a couple of people on Bugs only, a team for powers, the Zones, one or two on costumes, then a Zone/mission team, we would be in a great position to really make this game what it should be. The number one Super Hero MMO.
anything new in the game is new content
what people mean to say is they want more playable content
its a misnomer really
like when people say prejudice when they mean racially prejudice
one may say this is just semantics
but if you don't use the words correctly people outside of your group won't know what you mean.
that being said i want more playable and visual (costumes)content
This would mean in CO that content is story arc missions, lairs, action packs, comic series, and even alerts. The game world itself, meaning zones, could be considered content as well because you do things in it.
Content is not powers, costumes, or devices, no matter how fancy they're made to be.
/shrug.
I agree. Others would/will disagree.
If there had never been a COH there would never have been a CO. :cool:
I'm just going to point back to my original reply in response to this, it's #2.
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So content here is zones, missions, lairs, adventure packs, comic series etc. Alerts are borderline. While they are technically content, all the alerts together are la lot less content than a single Ap etc, and merely few minute zerg fests.
Hahaha. No.
People LOVE being intentionally obtuse on these forums. They know. They very, very much know. It doesn't suit whatever their ridiculous angle or agenda is, but they know.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
My point was, this does not need to be defined here. The entirety of the CO playerbase cannot be spoken for, only a small vocal minority visit the forums. However among the playerbase that does visit the forums, this has been hashed out over, and over, and over in the forums, and it is not necessary to undercut those discussions by attempting to define it here. You have threads consistently sprouting up asking for new zones, asking for the foundry, asking for more content that generally has a little more meat on its bones and replayability. Please point me to threads where people ask for more alerts or more vehicles or more lockboxes. The sheer amount of threads on this matter paints a very clear picture of what would qualify as content.
So... the answer is to not make content?
I don't think people are even asking for that large a staff. I think they'd be happy with a staff of developers. Two people doesn't really cut it when working on a MMO
Retain? Yes. Not all but, it'd help keep some. Bring in? No. I have a very hard time seeing being able to do the work of the devs as being a key selling point in a MMO. Yes. I'm aware of AE. I'm also aware that a lot of the players there weren't nearly as enamored with it as some remember. Quite the opposite actually. I knew a lot of people that left.
Did you ever consider that the majority of people running the end game arcs in CoH were in instances where you couldn't see them? The game was almost entirely instanced after all.
I can't say I'm for the idea but, since you asked...
http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=198751
I'd suggest taking a peek and casting your vote because out of all the threads on these topics, I can't help thinking this is the one Cryptic would latch onto if they did actually pay attention to these threads.
I have to agree with jonsills that different people have different ideas of what is content and what is not. Sure there is some overlap but there is a differing of opinion when it comes to this sort of thing. I've been playing mmos for a long time and even I regard content differently than some of what has been stated in this thread, mostly because I think there are different levels of content. New zones I see as major content. New powers and such I see as minor content akin to new weapons in your standard fantasy mmo. Alerts fall in the middle. I also regard this game's content in the context of what resources they have available to them, which adds some more complexity to the idea of demanding more content.
I'm all for new zones and stuff but yeah, I don't think there is a consensus on what true content is.
I still hold out hope that the devs will revisit Vibora - remove the requirement of having to do the crisis, (I know you can get there via a VB 'day at the mall' alert), lower the level requirement to 30, and review all the missions to make their duration and rewards more enticing. Instead of having to kill, say, 100 vampires or destroy 50 coffins, maybe only make it 25 and 10. Improve the way the minimap handles the crypt instanced maps, (allow a further level of zoom-out and show all the floors, etc). Also take some of the instanced missions and move them to the open-world, or add a bunch of open-world missions in VB.
Overall, though, one of the biggest issues is how CO handles the sharing of missions amongst teammates - they should give full XP + other rewards, (scaled to player level), and things like Nemesis missions not being shareable needs to be done away with.
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
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Here's the problem with all of these things that have been added, that people have asked for though, they were implemented in place of what was being delivered as content before. We got *one* new exploration zone in the form of Vibora Bay. Which was replaced by smaller adventure packs, which were replaced by even smaller still comic series, which were then replaced by miniscule alerts. With each course we are being served for our money the plates get smaller and smaller. I would not have a problem with Alerts, were they not a replacement for meatier, story driven content that was delivered previously.
Note I said sometimes. The trick to figuring out whether you should plug your ears or actually listen to that sample of people is figuring out a reason why your sample would be in some way different than the larger population it's drawn from. The most common thing I've seen significantly influence it is the method of drawing that sample, assuming there is any significant difference.
Think of it this way: If you cut into a freshly baked brownie, still as one in the pan, and take a slice, what you're going to get is a brownie. Depending on a combination of factors, including where you cut it, how you mixed it, perhaps how it sat in the oven, or any number of other things, you might get a slice with more raisins in it, or more nuts, or you might get a corner piece that's a little crispy, but what you're essentially getting is still a brownie. If what you're specifically asking is "does this taste like proper chocolate" none of these other things even really matter.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
I think the answer is to temper expectations and get a better view of how Cryptic likely sees creation of content.
... The petition thread is just a few lines down. Look at all the 'yes, please' responses. There are a lot of players who want to make content. And AE had its own problems, the Foundry is apples to oranges to what we had.
From my perspective, it always seemed empty save for everyone there for an iTrial. I don't remember many DA teams forming, my friends and I ran it once for our RP guilds and didn't really touch it much afterwards, and it didn't seem as popular as the iTrials. But again, that was my perspective so YMMV.
No one here has disagreed on what "content" is, only what specific type do we prefer, which would be more likely to be provided, and which has the most merit on the long term. But we're still all talking about the same thing--"playable" content.
The request was for threads asking for MORE vehicles, not whether or not people asked for them at some point on this game's history. What people specifically asked for was vehicles as travel powers, then eventually brought up vehicle become devices as a compromise, since travel power vehicles were unlikely to happen. And no one ever asked for vehicles at the expense of new (playable) content.
It was Cryptic who decided to base an entire update around them, and go all the way when it came to vehicles and add in mods and power customization--something they had specifically told us was what THEY would want if vehicles were ever implemented but no one ever cared about or asked for.
Also, people asking about Alerts before they were ever implemented--after Cryptic told us they were planned--is not an indication that the players were asking for them (no one ever did) but rather curiosity about what the devs had in store for the game, from a community that was already starving for content at the time (same as now, one of the most common topics back was still the lack of content--the "playable" variety). And ONE thread with a player giving them praise does not reflect the sentiments of the entire community on this matter.
No, different people have different ideas about what specific type of "content" (of the playable variety) they want. We all know we're talking about "playable" content.
This is a much more accurate comment than the one I quoted previously. To put it simply, if you didn't see people running arcs in Dark Astoria, it was because you didn't associate with people that did. I had numerous friends that would form teams for the express purpose of running those arcs and was in a couple global channels where people would post comments that they were doing the same and were looking for people to join them. Those teams almost always filled quickly at which point they'd have disappeared into an instance where you wouldn't be able to see them.
Replaced? It seems more like they didn't have the resources to put out a full zone so they have been putting out smaller stuff along the way rather than long periods of nothing. I can't really fault them for doing that. I don't see these things so much as mere replacement of content as it is a means to show people that they are still invested in the game.
I think much of the argument that has been had in this thread and will continue on for a few pages is indicative that people need to figure out what counts as content and what they want before making demands. I think it's silly to skip over this part because it's assumed everyone is thinking about the same thing when in the past we've seen the error of assuming what others are thinking.
I still think it will end up being "content people are happy with". It shouldn't be but it will.
Clear enough of a vote?
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
Quote one post in this thread where someone has disagreed on what we normally mean when we use the word "content". Cuz all I've seen so far are different people that seem to agree on what "content" is disagree on which specific type of those various things we agree are "content" should take priority on the unlikely event that the devs actually give it to us. That is not disageeing about what is "content". That is disagreeing about which of the various things we agree are content we should get first, and perhaps which of those things has more "merit".
Which may still beg the question what specific type of content should we ask the devs to cook up next, but it still doesn't mean that we disagree on what content is.
Yeah, I originally had a longer reply that included stuff about the hover bikes, but accidentally closed the tab down after I was practically done and was gonna recheck stuff before posting, then I forgot about them when I had to retype the entire thing all over again.
People have asked for hover bikes, but from the threads I've read about that they've asked for (or perhaps more precisely about) them on the context that they were already under development regardless, so it wasn't so much "Please, build us some hover bikes from scratch" but more like "where are the hover bikes that were already on the works?" I even remember (IIRC) some posters in the threads I read mention that they had no interest on the current vehicles and where not going to buy them because they didn't work for their character's concepts (which doesn't sound too supportive of the vehicle system in general), but would buy the hover bikes.
And while people may have asked for vehicles numerous times over the course of these game's life (which by the way is a point I have made myself before when lots where whining about vehicles, so I'm not saying that the devs pulled the entire thing out of nowhere), requests for them were not as numerous as requests for new playable content, and they mostly died down as time went by and the need for new playable content became greater, since people kept having to play the same thing over and over again. By the time vehicles were announced people hardly brought them up at all, except for the occasional new player that hadn't been around for all the other times people asked for them.
Still the point remains that even taking people that asked for more vehicles or alerts into account, the vast majority (as far as I know) of the threads on regards to content (including the non-playable kind, like costume sets) had been about the non-Alert playable variety.
No, vehicles are not stuff you play, they're stuff you play with. EDIT: Now, if you mean the vehicle alert, THAT is playable content (not a lot of it or something we can get a lot of use of considering that its small, its the only type of vehicle specific content we have and we wont get the most of the experience if we don't buy our own vehicle, but it is still technically playable content).
I realize that. What I meant was no one said "if it comes down to either vehicles or new playable content, give us the vehicles".
I don't disagree with this and in fact I brought up similar points soon after vehicles were released in a thread where people were bashing them. I later changed my stance (slightly) when I took the additional points I made on my last post into consideration. So I while I don't fault Cryptic for thinking vehicles would be a big thing, I think that they took a bad time to add them, and that the way they were implemented went in some ways beyond what people were asking for. So I don't fault the people that asked for them for their implementation either.
In fact, I think that vehicles are a good idea, just with more limited visual customization than some of us would have prefered and bad timing. And also (in relation to timing) not the thing that this game needed the most.
You missed my use of the word "entire" in my post.
I don't disagree that different people consider different content acceptable. What I disagree is that we disagree on what we mean when we use the word "content" without clarifying that we actually mean "playable" content, as I explained at the start of this post.
Quote them so we can argue about them? Sure, why not?
And finally there's mine which is much closer to A but as for what I want from the game I would like to see B and C, but I won't flip out if I get another powerset or another become device. It doesn't change the fact that I consider vehicles, powers, and costumes to be content and thought the devs were making a good effort when they put those out. I'm not going to say someone with a differing opinion is wrong, rather I'm just pointing out the obvious that people regard content differently and have different definitions of it and even want different things.
Anyways I won't bother to address the rest (I don't even get paid for this). I don't think a consensus on what the definition of content is can honestly be reached but at the end f the day it doesn't matter when we each have a specific idea of what we want as it goes for things we want from this game. We may all not want the same thing (I want to see more Become Devices) but there is a good chance of overlap (zones, lairs foundry). If this is what you meant then great minds think alike I guess. If not oh well. I know what I want from the game which is closer to the check list vikaernes posted ( I can sacrifice my unnatural love for Become Devices if it means more zones and stuff like that).
People who try to redefine the concept, trying too assert that the word has multiple meanings, are rightfully pilloried as being fing nuts on other forums, and in virtually every other media piece produced*edit for very good reason.
That's because they know they can get away with that sort of nonsensical rhetoric here.
You know we're content starved when a discussion about "we need more content" gets derailed because some idiots want to split hairs about what is and isn't content. I'm waiting for a new brand of crazy to pop up and ask that question in a more philosophical manner: "What IS content?". /soulsearching