No, it really isn't. But as usual, you're incapable of understanding this.
There are plenty of things that are black and white, and plenty of things that are shades of grey. Sometimes, games fall into that grey area. More often than not, actually. CO has plenty of issues, but it's not Superman 64, to be blunt.
It really is that simple. It's not our job to improve the game, no one's paying us. If our suggestions don't improve the game and it fails to meet our expectations, we can just go play something else.
Don't get so caught up with trying to prove everyone wrong that you forget that CO is just another game.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
It's never that simple. The prime fact is that I overall enjoy and care about the concept of Champions. I want to see it succeed and not be neglected.
"Hey, you don't like it, stop playing," is not really a valid argument when you value and overall enjoy the experience of an MMO, yet are upset about its dearth of content and neglect. I like the general vision, the gameplay, and the fact that it suits my tastes to a superhero MMO, especially now that City of Heroes no longer exists.
So in this dry a market where we have merely two superhero MMO's that cater to creativity, and one of them has a gameplay style I prefer (Champions,) that I want to see better, saying 'oh, well' isn't very prudent when you like the game and want to see the product *improved.*
Communication on the primary vehicle of the forums nabs nothing. A letter writing campaign, maybe? To Perfect World or Cryptic? And if so, will that make a difference in the end? Corporations understand money. Sometimes that's the only way to communicate when they won't listen on other channels.
I don't want to say 'screw it' and watch CO continue to be a graveyard of content. Too much potential goes to waste in a genre that's not very populated right now in gaming alternatives.
However all of this that we are writing here is nothing but crap (no offense): NO ONE IN PWE IS READING THIS. THEY DON'T CARE AT ALL. Does someone think someone in PWE reads for instance the Suggestions thread? Come on!
So sadly for PWE they'll never have my money.
I have to agree with most of this , we just need to make a few adjustments. But I am still going to support Champions for reasons that will become obvious.
People tend to confuse PWE and PW, but as we seen with our new community rep people from PWE do listen and respond to us. But thats PWE not PW they are two different entities.
Our new overlords at PW over in China I really dont think they care about Champions at all. It doesnt matter what Cryptic or PWE say to them PW will still only really be interested in Star Trek Online ( and a tiny bit interested in Dungeons and Dragons). We die hard PnP players in the west might know what Champions is but the rest of the world doesn't. Trek is a bigger IP known world wide it will make them more money.
The sad but true facts are with Into Darkness out this year Trek will be getting most of the love as PW tries to cash in on it.
Don't hold your breath for any new zone next year.
Its as simple as this Cryptic will be given what games take priority and I am guessing it looks like this.
First priority STO then Neverwinter THEN Champions. Both Trek and DnD are bigger brands than Champs and there isnt much you can do about that. If you stop spending on Champions and it stops making profit then it will be closed. And if CO closes that would game over for all things superhero from Cryptic
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
It's never that simple. The prime fact is that I overall enjoy and care about the concept of Champions. I want to see it succeed and not be neglected.
"Hey, you don't like it, stop playing," is not really a valid argument when you value and overall enjoy the experience of an MMO, yet are upset about its dearth of content and neglect. I like the general vision, the gameplay, and the fact that it suits my tastes to a superhero MMO, especially now that City of Heroes no longer exists.
So in this dry a market where we have merely two superhero MMO's that cater to creativity, and one of them has a gameplay style I prefer (Champions,) that I want to see better, saying 'oh, well' isn't very prudent when you like the game and want to see the product *improved.*
Communication on the primary vehicle of the forums nabs nothing. A letter writing campaign, maybe? To Perfect World or Cryptic? And if so, will that make a difference in the end? Corporations understand money. Sometimes that's the only way to communicate when they won't listen on other channels.
I don't want to say 'screw it' and watch CO continue to be a graveyard of content. Too much potential goes to waste in a genre that's not very populated right now in gaming alternatives.
You don't have to stop playing. You also don't have to pay them any money. But just keep in mind, not paying them money doesn't do anything. They don't notice if you're not spending money, because nothing is happening for them to notice. The only thing you can do is give them a "Yes, good job!" by buying something, or do what you need to do for you and not concern yourself with what they're doing. It's just that simple.. simply because, there's nothing else you can do.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
We die hard PnP players in the west might know what Champions is but the rest of the world doesn't. Trek is a bigger IP known world wide it will make them more money.
The sad but true facts are with Into Darkness out this year Trek will be getting most of the love as PW tries to cash in on it.
Oh, no. You didn't just use a movie as justification for lack of developer interest in this game.
When the Avengers raked in more than half a billion dollars worldwide, did this game get any love? When Iron Man, IM2, Thor, and Captain America hit theaters, did this game get any love?
Now I can understand that yes, STO is actually relevant to the movie in that...well...it's STAR TREK.
But when someone searches for "superhero video games".....this and DCUO is what they get. A hint at the Marvel project which I think will tank, simply because you can't make your own hero, and who wants to play as Storm with a team full of wolverines or deadpools? .........wait. Forget I asked that. >_>
I'll be voting with my wallet. If I see support for Champions Online pick up after New Year's, I'll purchase NWN and contribute some UGC for it. If I don't see any support, then I won't.
Umm..the current alternative to this game for the super hero genre is....DCUO. YOU go play that tripe.
Oh, no. You didn't just use a movie as justification for lack of developer interest in this game.
When the Avengers raked in more than half a billion dollars worldwide, did this game get any love? When Iron Man, IM2, Thor, and Captain America hit theaters, did this game get any love?
Now I can understand that yes, STO is actually relevant to the movie in that...well...it's STAR TREK.
But when someone searches for "superhero video games".....this and DCUO is what they get. A hint at the Marvel project which I think will tank, simply because you can't make your own hero, and who wants to play as Storm with a team full of wolverines or deadpools? .........wait. Forget I asked that. >_>
Sadly that is what is going to happen . Seriously If STO doesn't get a major update when Into Darkness comes out I will eat my words and give you a become werewolf device.
Thats my point with your talk of Avengers and stuff we didnt get any love all the love was Trek side.
I wish it wasnt the case CO is a great game that needs more effort put into it :C
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
Sadly that is what is going to happen . Seriously If STO doesn't get a major update when Into Darkness comes out I will eat my words and give you a become werewolf device.
Thats my point with your talk of Avengers and stuff we didnt get any love all the love was Trek side.
I wish it wasnt the case CO is a great game that needs more effort put into it :C
I said it in another thread and I'll say it here as well.
Jack Emmert is the CEO of Cryptic.
He is the one that makes the final call on resource allocation.
I don't think it'd easy to dispute from his interviews that he is someone that gets very excited about doing new things, possibly to the point of neglecting old works in favor of the new shiney.
He also happens to play STO.
Is it any surprise that everybody keeps getting pulled from CO to work on his new favorite project and the game he prefers to play?
I said it in another thread and I'll say it here as well.
Jack Emmert is the CEO of Cryptic.
He is the one that makes the final call on resource allocation.
I don't think it'd easy to dispute from his interviews that he is someone that gets very excited about doing new things, possibly to the point of neglecting old works in favor of the new shiney.
He also happens to play STO.
Is it any surprise that everybody keeps getting pulled from CO to work on his new favorite project and the game he prefers to play?
I DID note a lack of that to myself a couple of days ago. That does shock me. On the other hand, over in the Alerts thread, people are actually calling for such things. :eek:
I DID note a lack of that to myself a couple of days ago. That does shock me. On the other hand, over in the Alerts thread, people are actually calling for such things. :eek:
Sigh, I guess I really AM not in Kansas anymore.
I was actually referring to back when Jack was still working on CoH. There were a couple times where he tried to implement things in an attempt to force players to play the way he wanted them to. I think the only one I actually agreed with was ED. A lot of people threw a fit over it and left the game but, it was ultimately a good thing imo.
You know what was a game that was incredibly buggy, to the point where some of the bugs absolutely trivialized the whole game? A game that, overall, was horribly balanced, with some characters being significantly more powerful than others, and the leveling system as well as items and skills having more exploits than just about any game of its type? You know, what we often complain about in CO?
Final Fantasy 6. Yes, that is correct, the game that's often considered the BEST game in the Final Fantasy series. The same game that is outright heralded as one of the greatest examples of a console RPG of its time, if not all time.
On that note, the one game that's often considered even better than it, Chrono Trigger, was NOTORIOUS for being incredibly easy. Yet the game also garnered an extremely high replay score and still to this day is heralded for its incredible production value, compelling story and terrific gameplay.
Problem is, a product can have flaws, and strengths. Sometimes, a product can have some incredible potential hidden in it, that people hang on to the very end in hopes it will eventually be realized. In some cases, the strengths and potential is so high people are even willing to outright forgive its flaws.
It's quite possible that the same product gets better and worse over time, due to mismanagement, and it's possible that if it gets worse people have already invested in it quite a bit assuming that it would be improving over time.
Naturally, it's a damn shame when that thing never realizes its true potential, and it's quite a sad thing to watch it crumple into a pile of failure when you know for a fact it could have been so very much better.
But that's a finalized product. Not an mmo.
I don't expect something already released like that to get better over time. It's printed on disc and that's it. If I don't enjoy that version I'm sure as hell NOT going to get the editions in later years that they may have released to address bugs. Sorry but no.
For an mmo if it's not getting better over time I stop paying and move on. Full stop.
And if my initial experience with an mmo is that it sucks monkey you know whats (looks at SWTOR and GW2) I stop playing and paying immediately. Full stop.
Too many games out nowadays to put up with the "it has potential" or "wait for the next patch" idiocy I hear from fanboys (and equally from detractors) all the time.
Why pay for something that feels like your getting you teeth pulled? I never understood that.
If there had never been a COH there would never have been a CO. :cool:
Why pay for something that feels like your getting you teeth pulled? I never understood that.
Because if you don't, then the game that has continuously failed to meet your expectations will eventually close down*. But if you continue to pay, that game will go on so that possibly, maybe (theoretically) SOME day at some undisclosed and undeterminable (hypothetical) future date (that we have no guarantee will ever come to be), it MAY finally come to meet your expectations (somewhat).
*since we all know that the game relies entirely on YOUR support (as opposed to just the people that actually want to play it on its current state) to stay alive
I was actually referring to back when Jack was still working on CoH. There were a couple times where he tried to implement things in an attempt to force players to play the way he wanted them to. I think the only one I actually agreed with was ED. A lot of people threw a fit over it and left the game but, it was ultimately a good thing imo.
Sadly that is what is going to happen . Seriously If STO doesn't get a major update when Into Darkness comes out I will eat my words and give you a become werewolf device.
No thanks. I'd never use it, as I'm not a big fan of furries/anthros.
I said it in another thread and I'll say it here as well.
Jack Emmert is the CEO of Cryptic.
He is the one that makes the final call on resource allocation.
I don't think it'd easy to dispute from his interviews that he is someone that gets very excited about doing new things, possibly to the point of neglecting old works in favor of the new shiney.
He also happens to play STO.
Is it any surprise that everybody keeps getting pulled from CO to work on his new favorite project and the game he prefers to play?
Anyone who read any of the interviews Jack did in the 6 months after CO launched would
realize that he washed his hands of this game years ago...
Originally Posted by mijjestic: Ultimately, though, MMO players throwing stones at each other in this fashion is basically one nerd pointing and laughing at another nerd whose glasses are thicker.
It's never that simple. The prime fact is that I overall enjoy and care about the concept of Champions. I want to see it succeed and not be neglected.
"Hey, you don't like it, stop playing," is not really a valid argument when you value and overall enjoy the experience of an MMO, yet are upset about its dearth of content and neglect. I like the general vision, the gameplay, and the fact that it suits my tastes to a superhero MMO, especially now that City of Heroes no longer exists.
So in this dry a market where we have merely two superhero MMO's that cater to creativity, and one of them has a gameplay style I prefer (Champions,) that I want to see better, saying 'oh, well' isn't very prudent when you like the game and want to see the product *improved.*
Communication on the primary vehicle of the forums nabs nothing. A letter writing campaign, maybe? To Perfect World or Cryptic? And if so, will that make a difference in the end? Corporations understand money. Sometimes that's the only way to communicate when they won't listen on other channels.
I don't want to say 'screw it' and watch CO continue to be a graveyard of content. Too much potential goes to waste in a genre that's not very populated right now in gaming alternatives.
And what if you've already waited a year plus for the game to improve and it still hasn't. At what point do you cut your loses and move on?
I get giving them time to improve. I DO NOT AGREE with giving them infinite time. And from the looks of what's going on in game, I'm not alone.
If there had never been a COH there would never have been a CO. :cool:
Because if you don't, then the game that has continuously failed to meet your expectations will eventually close down*. But if you continue to pay, that game will go on so that possibly, maybe (theoretically) SOME day at some undisclosed and undeterminable (hypothetical) future date (that we have no guarantee will ever come to be), it MAY finally come to meet your expectations (somewhat).
*since we all know that the game relies entirely on YOUR support (as opposed to just the people that actually want to play it on its current state) to stay alive
Soooo Masochism.
Good to know. :biggrin:
If there had never been a COH there would never have been a CO. :cool:
Yeah. I should have. I've been keeping really odd hours lately which leaves me feeling kinda sleepy all the time and rarely thinking as clear as I could be.
So, the despicable Mr. Emmert actually -plays- STO? Hrm. This makes me want to roll up a character there just to search for, and grief the man.
Not really. If anything, it makes me want to avoid the game even more.
I kinda -like- Star Trek. I don't want to sully it with what a video game has done/is doing/will do to the lore/genre. Ditto Star Wars.
I don't know... I kinda liked going onto TOR and explaining to people, in detail and citing incidents from the books, PnP, and movies, that the jedi are a group of extremists that created their own worst enemies through religious intolerance and that the movies are actually about a genocidal group that uses lies and half truths to manipulate children into being their foot soldiers and weapons in their war to control the galaxy.
Anyone who read any of the interviews Jack did in the 6 months after CO launched would
realize that he washed his hands of this game years ago...
He's done more than that. By regularly pulling anyone he percieves as good at their job from CO to work on other projects, he's systematically destroying this game's chance of getting better.
And what if you've already waited a year plus for the game to improve and it still hasn't. At what point do you cut your loses and move on?
I get giving them time to improve. I DO NOT AGREE with giving them infinite time. And from the looks of what's going on in game, I'm not alone.
Wow. How'd I not notice this one before.
To put it bluntly, if you've waited a year and a half that's part of the reason why. I've already dumped years of sub money into this game, and more than just that back when they were on track and things looked a bit brighter. There was a point when things really were looking up, and this game seemed like it had a future.
As such, I know my issue is a combination of letting down some friends (who may or may not be joining me now that CoX is completely down) and the fact that I really don't want to give up on this game and write it off as a lost cause after everything I've watched it go through.
It's tempting to just drop my sub and put the immediate money I'd get from that towards say, Starbound or some other cool indie game, though...
For those of you watching at home, if you haven't noticed- I've been on both sides of this argument. Because, quite frankly, both sides are equally represented here, and it's quite a complicated concept that really does tend to work both ways.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
Comments
It really is that simple. It's not our job to improve the game, no one's paying us. If our suggestions don't improve the game and it fails to meet our expectations, we can just go play something else.
Don't get so caught up with trying to prove everyone wrong that you forget that CO is just another game.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
It's never that simple. The prime fact is that I overall enjoy and care about the concept of Champions. I want to see it succeed and not be neglected.
"Hey, you don't like it, stop playing," is not really a valid argument when you value and overall enjoy the experience of an MMO, yet are upset about its dearth of content and neglect. I like the general vision, the gameplay, and the fact that it suits my tastes to a superhero MMO, especially now that City of Heroes no longer exists.
So in this dry a market where we have merely two superhero MMO's that cater to creativity, and one of them has a gameplay style I prefer (Champions,) that I want to see better, saying 'oh, well' isn't very prudent when you like the game and want to see the product *improved.*
Communication on the primary vehicle of the forums nabs nothing. A letter writing campaign, maybe? To Perfect World or Cryptic? And if so, will that make a difference in the end? Corporations understand money. Sometimes that's the only way to communicate when they won't listen on other channels.
I don't want to say 'screw it' and watch CO continue to be a graveyard of content. Too much potential goes to waste in a genre that's not very populated right now in gaming alternatives.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
I have to agree with most of this , we just need to make a few adjustments. But I am still going to support Champions for reasons that will become obvious.
People tend to confuse PWE and PW, but as we seen with our new community rep people from PWE do listen and respond to us. But thats PWE not PW they are two different entities.
Our new overlords at PW over in China I really dont think they care about Champions at all. It doesnt matter what Cryptic or PWE say to them PW will still only really be interested in Star Trek Online ( and a tiny bit interested in Dungeons and Dragons). We die hard PnP players in the west might know what Champions is but the rest of the world doesn't. Trek is a bigger IP known world wide it will make them more money.
The sad but true facts are with Into Darkness out this year Trek will be getting most of the love as PW tries to cash in on it.
Don't hold your breath for any new zone next year.
Its as simple as this Cryptic will be given what games take priority and I am guessing it looks like this.
First priority STO then Neverwinter THEN Champions. Both Trek and DnD are bigger brands than Champs and there isnt much you can do about that. If you stop spending on Champions and it stops making profit then it will be closed. And if CO closes that would game over for all things superhero from Cryptic
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
You don't have to stop playing. You also don't have to pay them any money. But just keep in mind, not paying them money doesn't do anything. They don't notice if you're not spending money, because nothing is happening for them to notice. The only thing you can do is give them a "Yes, good job!" by buying something, or do what you need to do for you and not concern yourself with what they're doing. It's just that simple.. simply because, there's nothing else you can do.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
I would like to seriously think there was something *we* could do as a community, but who knows?
Umm..the current alternative to this game for the super hero genre is....DCUO. YOU go play that tripe.
Oh, no. You didn't just use a movie as justification for lack of developer interest in this game.
When the Avengers raked in more than half a billion dollars worldwide, did this game get any love? When Iron Man, IM2, Thor, and Captain America hit theaters, did this game get any love?
Now I can understand that yes, STO is actually relevant to the movie in that...well...it's STAR TREK.
But when someone searches for "superhero video games".....this and DCUO is what they get. A hint at the Marvel project which I think will tank, simply because you can't make your own hero, and who wants to play as Storm with a team full of wolverines or deadpools? .........wait. Forget I asked that. >_>
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
Sadly that is what is going to happen . Seriously If STO doesn't get a major update when Into Darkness comes out I will eat my words and give you a become werewolf device.
Thats my point with your talk of Avengers and stuff we didnt get any love all the love was Trek side.
I wish it wasnt the case CO is a great game that needs more effort put into it :C
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
I said it in another thread and I'll say it here as well.
Jack Emmert is the CEO of Cryptic.
He is the one that makes the final call on resource allocation.
I don't think it'd easy to dispute from his interviews that he is someone that gets very excited about doing new things, possibly to the point of neglecting old works in favor of the new shiney.
He also happens to play STO.
Is it any surprise that everybody keeps getting pulled from CO to work on his new favorite project and the game he prefers to play?
I didn't know this, but it makes sense now.
(PS: yes I read this whole thread)
Consolidate the currencies! (Please!)
Does your Champion have a theme song? (share it!)
Got a funny in-game screenshot? (share it!)
Please fix the Overdrive energy unlock! (Should help promote thematic build diversity!)
Surprised by it?
I expect it.
The only other thing I expect is him trying to force people to play according to his 'vision'. Luckily, that doesn't seem to have happened here.
Sigh, I guess I really AM not in Kansas anymore.
I was actually referring to back when Jack was still working on CoH. There were a couple times where he tried to implement things in an attempt to force players to play the way he wanted them to. I think the only one I actually agreed with was ED. A lot of people threw a fit over it and left the game but, it was ultimately a good thing imo.
But that's a finalized product. Not an mmo.
I don't expect something already released like that to get better over time. It's printed on disc and that's it. If I don't enjoy that version I'm sure as hell NOT going to get the editions in later years that they may have released to address bugs. Sorry but no.
For an mmo if it's not getting better over time I stop paying and move on. Full stop.
And if my initial experience with an mmo is that it sucks monkey you know whats (looks at SWTOR and GW2) I stop playing and paying immediately. Full stop.
Too many games out nowadays to put up with the "it has potential" or "wait for the next patch" idiocy I hear from fanboys (and equally from detractors) all the time.
Why pay for something that feels like your getting you teeth pulled? I never understood that.
If there had never been a COH there would never have been a CO. :cool:
Because if you don't, then the game that has continuously failed to meet your expectations will eventually close down*. But if you continue to pay, that game will go on so that possibly, maybe (theoretically) SOME day at some undisclosed and undeterminable (hypothetical) future date (that we have no guarantee will ever come to be), it MAY finally come to meet your expectations (somewhat).
*since we all know that the game relies entirely on YOUR support (as opposed to just the people that actually want to play it on its current state) to stay alive
I know. That's why I noted it not being here.
+1 for pure awesomeness! :biggrin:
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
No thanks. I'd never use it, as I'm not a big fan of furries/anthros.
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
Anyone who read any of the interviews Jack did in the 6 months after CO launched would
realize that he washed his hands of this game years ago...
M-O-O-N, that spells @Rhyatt
Originally Posted by mijjestic: Ultimately, though, MMO players throwing stones at each other in this fashion is basically one nerd pointing and laughing at another nerd whose glasses are thicker.
Laws yes!
And what if you've already waited a year plus for the game to improve and it still hasn't. At what point do you cut your loses and move on?
I get giving them time to improve. I DO NOT AGREE with giving them infinite time. And from the looks of what's going on in game, I'm not alone.
If there had never been a COH there would never have been a CO. :cool:
Soooo Masochism.
Good to know. :biggrin:
If there had never been a COH there would never have been a CO. :cool:
Fair enough. But I will still say I was wrong on these forums if STO doesnt get a big update around the time of the new movie XD
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
Fair 'nuff.
So, the despicable Mr. Emmert actually -plays- STO? Hrm. This makes me want to roll up a character there just to search for, and grief the man.
Not really. If anything, it makes me want to avoid the game even more.
I kinda -like- Star Trek. I don't want to sully it with what a video game has done/is doing/will do to the lore/genre. Ditto Star Wars.
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
Jack seems that have that effect on a LOT of people...
"Champions-Online and Star Trek Online contained hundreds of hours of mediocre content!"
and "nothing was polished".
--Jack Emmert
Yeah. I should have. I've been keeping really odd hours lately which leaves me feeling kinda sleepy all the time and rarely thinking as clear as I could be.
I don't know... I kinda liked going onto TOR and explaining to people, in detail and citing incidents from the books, PnP, and movies, that the jedi are a group of extremists that created their own worst enemies through religious intolerance and that the movies are actually about a genocidal group that uses lies and half truths to manipulate children into being their foot soldiers and weapons in their war to control the galaxy.
He's done more than that. By regularly pulling anyone he percieves as good at their job from CO to work on other projects, he's systematically destroying this game's chance of getting better.
Wow. How'd I not notice this one before.
To put it bluntly, if you've waited a year and a half that's part of the reason why. I've already dumped years of sub money into this game, and more than just that back when they were on track and things looked a bit brighter. There was a point when things really were looking up, and this game seemed like it had a future.
As such, I know my issue is a combination of letting down some friends (who may or may not be joining me now that CoX is completely down) and the fact that I really don't want to give up on this game and write it off as a lost cause after everything I've watched it go through.
It's tempting to just drop my sub and put the immediate money I'd get from that towards say, Starbound or some other cool indie game, though...
For those of you watching at home, if you haven't noticed- I've been on both sides of this argument. Because, quite frankly, both sides are equally represented here, and it's quite a complicated concept that really does tend to work both ways.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."