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Making vehicles a bit more viable...
meedacthunist
Posts: 2,961 Arc User1
Ok. I'm pretty sure that now everyone, Cryptic devs including, realises how badly this Reloaded update failed. Simply, there is little demand for vehicles. Sky Command alert is empty most of the time (not really surprising, it gives nothing really interesting), but most accurate indication how unwanted vehicles are is low pricing for vehicle mods at AH.
But I'm hardly complaining about this one. This is a superhero game, not a "world of cybertanks", so if vehicles are in limited usage only - this is even better.
What isn't better is how redundant vehicles are in relation to their price.
We are asked about spending money for something what is a flavour item, but is really subpar even in terms of flavour.
Vehicles are also more expensive than regular becomes, but they are subpar with regular becomes in terms of usability. Yes, player can spend his time for collecting and fusing mods - but why exactly he should bother? This time could be spent as well for gathering normal mods for his character.
Besides - if something is more expensive than ordinary become player has any right for expecting that this thing will be better than regular device WITHOUT spending any additional time for upgrading.
So, combining limited practical usability with poor performance and a little value in the terms of flavour, it isn't even surprising why vehicles failed. They aren't simply that appealing for players.
Too bad, because given how limited is CO's development in terms of manpower and resources, it means nothing more, but wasted effort.
There are two different things to do for ensure that this effort and resources won't be wasted.
First choice is to make vehicles cheaper, pricing them just like regular becomes - but it is very unlikely.
Second choice is to upgrade vehicles and make them really appealing. This could be made in a few ways:
1 - Appearance Customisation.
Sorry to say, dear Cryptic, but I'm afraid that a very limited customisation available with weapon mods (which is barely noticeable anyway) isn't what players were asking for. We need a real visual customisation for our rides, even a really basic one - otherwise we aren't really interested with vehicles.
Now, since vehicles are becomes, a really extensive customisation for vehicles may not be possible. This is understandable.
But we need at least color customisation for our vehicles. Let's say three color channels for chassis camo, and a fourth one for bits like cockpits and canopies. Even if camo pattern's won't be changeable, it would allow us for making a bit more personal camo, or even no camo at all.
A bit more tricky part would be adding an additional layer with emblems to our vehicles, but for now even having only a selectable colors would be better than no visual customisation at all.
2 - Usability.
By all means, vehicles should be ALWAYS limited to the outdoor maps - this is actually quite good approach. No matter how flashy are vehicle powers, as long as these things are unusable in alerts and lairs, it serves as a best way of ensuring that vehicles will never become a pay2win feature - well, unless someone is really thinking that a few outdoor bosses, one vehicle-oriented alert, and open missions are THAT important.
But also vehicles should be usable in ANY outdoor map - not only in the regular gameplay, but also in every adventure pack, crisis, and comic series - this oversight really should be fixed.
3 - Roles.
Give a locked roles to the vehicles. A Tank role to the tanks, a Ranged DPS role to the fighters/bikes, and a Support role to the few support vehicles, regardles of their base chassis, like support fighters/bikes. Maybe a few unique vehicles should be locked in the Hybrid role.
4 - Stats.
Right now vehicles are like a gimped characters without stats and passives. Vehicle mods are not enough for balancing this issue, as they are serving at best as an equivalent to the upgrades. A character without stats and passives would be mediocre even with upgrades.
Even regular become devices have stats, but vehicles don't.
First - base for all vehicle stats should be rather regular 10 instead of 5. Second, every category of vehicles should have one or two "superstats".
This is only an example:
CON/STR for tanks
EGO/DEX for fighters/bikes
PRE/INT for supports regardless of their chassis
CON/EGO for hybrids regardless of their chassis
5 - Slotted passives.
This is pretty much self-explanatory.
Again, this is only an example:
Invulnerability for tanks
Targeting Computer for fighters/bikes
Medical Nanites for supports regardless of their chassis
But I'm hardly complaining about this one. This is a superhero game, not a "world of cybertanks", so if vehicles are in limited usage only - this is even better.
What isn't better is how redundant vehicles are in relation to their price.
We are asked about spending money for something what is a flavour item, but is really subpar even in terms of flavour.
Vehicles are also more expensive than regular becomes, but they are subpar with regular becomes in terms of usability. Yes, player can spend his time for collecting and fusing mods - but why exactly he should bother? This time could be spent as well for gathering normal mods for his character.
Besides - if something is more expensive than ordinary become player has any right for expecting that this thing will be better than regular device WITHOUT spending any additional time for upgrading.
So, combining limited practical usability with poor performance and a little value in the terms of flavour, it isn't even surprising why vehicles failed. They aren't simply that appealing for players.
Too bad, because given how limited is CO's development in terms of manpower and resources, it means nothing more, but wasted effort.
There are two different things to do for ensure that this effort and resources won't be wasted.
First choice is to make vehicles cheaper, pricing them just like regular becomes - but it is very unlikely.
Second choice is to upgrade vehicles and make them really appealing. This could be made in a few ways:
1 - Appearance Customisation.
Sorry to say, dear Cryptic, but I'm afraid that a very limited customisation available with weapon mods (which is barely noticeable anyway) isn't what players were asking for. We need a real visual customisation for our rides, even a really basic one - otherwise we aren't really interested with vehicles.
Now, since vehicles are becomes, a really extensive customisation for vehicles may not be possible. This is understandable.
But we need at least color customisation for our vehicles. Let's say three color channels for chassis camo, and a fourth one for bits like cockpits and canopies. Even if camo pattern's won't be changeable, it would allow us for making a bit more personal camo, or even no camo at all.
A bit more tricky part would be adding an additional layer with emblems to our vehicles, but for now even having only a selectable colors would be better than no visual customisation at all.
2 - Usability.
By all means, vehicles should be ALWAYS limited to the outdoor maps - this is actually quite good approach. No matter how flashy are vehicle powers, as long as these things are unusable in alerts and lairs, it serves as a best way of ensuring that vehicles will never become a pay2win feature - well, unless someone is really thinking that a few outdoor bosses, one vehicle-oriented alert, and open missions are THAT important.
But also vehicles should be usable in ANY outdoor map - not only in the regular gameplay, but also in every adventure pack, crisis, and comic series - this oversight really should be fixed.
3 - Roles.
Give a locked roles to the vehicles. A Tank role to the tanks, a Ranged DPS role to the fighters/bikes, and a Support role to the few support vehicles, regardles of their base chassis, like support fighters/bikes. Maybe a few unique vehicles should be locked in the Hybrid role.
4 - Stats.
Right now vehicles are like a gimped characters without stats and passives. Vehicle mods are not enough for balancing this issue, as they are serving at best as an equivalent to the upgrades. A character without stats and passives would be mediocre even with upgrades.
Even regular become devices have stats, but vehicles don't.
First - base for all vehicle stats should be rather regular 10 instead of 5. Second, every category of vehicles should have one or two "superstats".
This is only an example:
CON/STR for tanks
EGO/DEX for fighters/bikes
PRE/INT for supports regardless of their chassis
CON/EGO for hybrids regardless of their chassis
5 - Slotted passives.
This is pretty much self-explanatory.
Again, this is only an example:
Invulnerability for tanks
Targeting Computer for fighters/bikes
Medical Nanites for supports regardless of their chassis
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments
It is the easier option, and we are understaffed here. Just sayin' to keep an eye out.
I agree on all five points, but I'd hate to have the role locked to the vehicle. Sky Lass is (currently) a Brawler / Avenger, I'm not sure I'd want her jet to get stuck tanking.
What would be awesome is if my own stats affected the vehicle. I'm piloting after all, shouldn't my Offense, Defense, D/A, crit rate, damage bonuses et al matter?
Anyway, I opted for fixed roles/stats/passives mainly because I'm rather sure that already existing tech for become devices doesn't makes switching between roles (or changing stats, or passives) possible. Every time when I'm opening character menus all my role choices and powers are here, but it seems that they are completely overridden with device form.
Hence I suggested something that could be built on the existing tech without need for developing even more new things, as it has more chances for realisation.
But agree with #1 and 2.
And playing by myself since Aug 2009
Godtier: Lifetime Subscriber
While on the same vein, I hope they don't make sidekicks just another sidekick device with no customization either. If the Call:Defender and Call:Witchcraft devices were a preview of sidekicks just work on something else already, or give us complete customization of the way they will look, instead of just a call Indy Kid device or something.
AGEED AGEED AGREED!
If it will be like vehicles then drop it and give us real content and some missions, not alert, actual missions.
Honestly...for me...this is exactly why I do not want to see any more updates to the current vehicles in the game.
I hate saying it's "out of place"...but seeing them everywhere...would definitely give me that feeling.
I'm sure that's just my perspective...but that's how I see it.
When I read that vehicles were being implemented...I expected things like motorcycles and hoverbikes for travel powers. Not what we actually got.
VARIANT
"Nearly all men can withstand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power."
-Abraham Lincoln-
and I was very willing to buy a bike...till i bought one of the four engine tanks (again I love the design) but was so underwhelmed it has ruined vehicles for me.
If vehicles aren't becomes and are just created as a travel power called "Vehicle" with several skins in the tailor like the pulldown for weapons, they could be color customizeable and probably easier to implement in the future since they don't require balance.
Skins can also be sold in the c-store. The downside is they can't lockbox that **** like they do with everything else, which is why this probably won't happen.
"but what about combat and blah blah some other stupid bull****?" Simply, no combat. Teleport can't be used in combat, ninja crap can't be used in combat, mummy crap can't be used in combat, leave vehicles the hell out of combat.
"Vehicles in combat" has only one place in superhero franchises
And Captain SuperBulkaNaught can't even do that right in CO.
"but where does it come from!?!?!?" Same place as your sword or robots - Whogivesa**** Lane.
2 - Usability.
If vehicles aren't huge monstrosities three times the size of a character, and are instead something like a motorbike, or small one man car, using them inside isn't that big a deal. It's not like wings prevent us from going through doors, and we get 2 travel powers anyway - you can always just not use the vehicle inside.
For team play, if you're the douche with the 300 square foot cruiser your team has every right to leave you to die alone, horribly, violently, and repeatedly.
3 - Roles.
Role - Transportation; getting from point A to point B.
4 - Stats.
Stats - Fast. Sometimes they go up too.
5 - Slotted passives.
New power - "Vroom." It makes things go forward, and, potentially, backwards.
I'm still having trouble thinking back and remembering when the conversation went from
"I want a bike so my Bat-clone doesn't have to run everywhere, and maybe it'd be nice to be able to kick while riding it,"
to
"I want a become device that either sucks or makes my character redundant with a bunch of **** I have to pay extra money for that can't be used for a good amount of the game anyway, and particularly conflicts with everything implemented in On Alert, from spec trees to the alerts themselves!"
/e drops mic
/e picks up mic
Hello? mic check mic check one two....
Is this thing on?
::feedback::
Superhero comics, not world war two comics.
Will these do?
BATB Batman with General Stuart and the Haunted Tank, linked 'cause its too big for the forum.
How about these guys?
Or these guys, since we do have Soldiers and VIPER?
Heck, how about you try telling Powerglide he's not a superhero?
Here's what you said:
From WW2 through the '80s to even today, there are superheroes who have a superpower that is a vehicle in combat. This game is about being the superhero you want to be, not being the superhero that is strictly delineated by a set of firm rules of superheroics. (Even if we are currently experiencing a glut of demonic types.)
Now, if only our characters could be as big as mega-D in combat, this would make much more sense.
MASK kinda counts, despite not being Super, but that's all a vehicle combat genre in itself, like Auto Assault or Twisted Metal. Not sure what the one after that is, it won't show anything other than Naruto.
Powerglide is a Transformer, not a Superhero. Despite having powers and being a hero, and even arguably a "secret identity," it still doesn't count. That's like throwing Goku into the superhero mix; he is not, despite sharing more traits in common with Superman than Optimus Prime does.
Not one of those is a Superhero, and most aren't even comics.
Pretty sure that's incorrect, but lets go with it -
1) Not according to the joint trademark Marvel and DC have on the term Superhero - there is a set of rules, although not all that firm.
2) Fine, the superhero I want to be has a bike not a tank.
Except these vehicles are good for nothing in their present form, and probably, given our less than enthusiastic response, we may as well never see another wave of vehicles. They aren't selling really well.
It's up only to the player if he enjoys playing bloodthirsty vigilante, demonic avenger or any of character types not considered a superheroes, if compared to the spandex-clad four-color types. This is also very subjective opinion, as, in example, Optimus Prime has more in common with silver age ideals than many of the modern superheroes.
It's also too late for wondering if vehicles in this form should be in the game.
The are already here.
Now they should be made usable, either in terms of customisation, or playability, as some people are already bought it.
I can only hope that CO's future sidekick system won't be introduced as a similar failure.
This is actually the point of the whole "out of place" argument...at least for me
They already spent time and resources on something that I feel is "out of place".
It is because I feel that way...that I argue against them spending even more time and resources on the thing that I feel is "out of place".
VARIANT
"Nearly all men can withstand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power."
-Abraham Lincoln-
Of course Cryptic may as well ignore this issue, I wouldn't be very surprised if vehicles ended like hideouts. Of course this means only waste of resources already spent on vehicles, but again - it's not like anybody here would be really surprised.
In short, I believe that, given their limited manpower (and if rumors about a tiny number of CO's development crew are true, this is really limited manpower), Cryptic should be rather focused at finishing things, than abandoning projects and moving to the new ones - because it's more than likely that such projects will be never finished. Such habit would be in general harming for a game as a whole.
They are not unfinished, they are more than we were supposed to get to begin with, especially since we were told "No" repeatedly, and most of what we didn't get was conceded by the community at large right from the start.
having rooms attached and never completed sounds unfinished to me.
So no, they are not unfinished, they are, in fact, done, with foundation in case they later choose to expand.
One was to be a Training Room, similar to the Powerhouse, so you could go to your Hideout and train up without having to get to a Powerhouse first (which could be terribly inconvenient when you've just dinged 26 out by Stronghold, especially if you didn't have a Flight power to get back to Greenskin). The other was to be a Crafting Room, similarly replacing the need to zoom all the way back to a Crafting Trainer to build the lovely item you finally got the last part for.
Except that On Alert came along. And among the changes were the ability to train up literally anywhere, and the new Mod system that a) renders Crafting Trainers obsolete and b) can also be done on the fly. The new rooms would have had absolutely no purpose under this system, so they were never made and added on.
Now, as the owner of four different styles of Hideout, I would have been in the forefront of those baying for these to be completed or the person responsible be turned over to us for judgment - had they not been rendered redundant by changes to the game. Under the current circumstances, however, I certainly don't want to see valuable artist time wasted on decorating two rooms we're never going to actually use...
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Instead of updating an already useless vehicles system, just give us a stack of 10 vehicles to bash faces/or toss at random enemies. Of course the damage done by our super awesome hero vehicles will do 10x as much damage as random cars/dumpsters you can collect around the city(As they do jack squat :rolleyes:)
Doing this would make them more worthy of a prize tag then what they are currently.:redface:
Edit: Yes, this is sarcasm. -_-
Training out in the field at moment, you cant test a power first, and you cant remove it (even at cost, let alone like free in the powerhouse), this you could do with a training room in your hideout, plus it gives more functionality to make them better/more popular instead of just a shared bank.
The crafting room could be turned into a teleport room/garage - where you can use the equivlent of super jet/teleport/whatever hideout them related device to travel to other zones - more functionality and more reason to get = more sales!
Hey .. i needed arguments like those when they started with the whole vehicle stuff and
was always confrontated with for me unknown "Superheroes" like those :redface:
But i think now somebody will search for pictures where Wolverine rides a bike with
with Rocketlaunchers or stuff like that :biggrin:
First thing that promotes my general apathy towards vehicles is the fact that all of them are cash only options. Lockbox, Drifter Salvage, or the Zen Store are where vehicles come from, period. If there was a normal in-game way to get one, even if it was a crappy one, I might show some interest in the product.
Bit Two: Vehicle Fragility
In nearly every comic book, cartoon, and movie, if the hero starts an important scene in a vehicle, by the time it is over, the craft has been wrecked, rendered non-functional, or outright blown to smithereens. This forces the hero to get out and battle his foes him or herself, without the crutch of an external battle platform. Doesn't matter if you start out on Peter Parker's pizza delivery scooter, or the S.H.I.E.L.D. helicarrier, by the end of the episode, someone's fist is going to impact somebody's jaw.
Formerly @Seschat pre PWEmerger. @Seschat on the Titan boards.
Supporter of the Titan Project.