It would scale with END/EGO and be called Force Advancement.
Please don't, I use PFF on a melee character and I'm usually best served energywise by INT or REC, please don't add pressure to stat END. The only reason Defiance get's away with scaling off of CON is because a non-PFF defensive toon is going to want it anyway.
PFF isn't just for Impulses, it's for everyone. Please, make it scale on regular +healing%.
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That Dork In The Suspenders, signing out.
Please don't, I use PFF on a melee character and I'm usually best served energywise by INT or REC, please don't add pressure to stat END. The only reason Defiance get's away with scaling off of CON is because a non-PFF defensive toon is going to want it anyway.
PFF isn't just for Impulses, it's for everyone. Please, make it scale on regular +healing%.
Historically Force was made to have Synergy with END stat. The change to +Healing% for bubble strength is a bad one.
PRE stat is now the only stat needed for support all support mechanics. Instead of having the need to go to any other stat for support, it instead does a lot to unseat the needed balance between stats.
I wasn't talking about the shield strength itself, I was talking about proposed Resurgence like heal for PFF. The shield strength being boosted by +heal% is actually pretty annoying since it doesn't also boost your regen at all and the regen gets weaker as shield strength goes down.
My PFF Tank is the only toon I've ever had die in Radiation Rumble, and it was due in part to the massive shield bonus that being irradiated gave. (The rest was because I didn't realize that Freon worked for VIPER. ****ing VIPER.)
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That Dork In The Suspenders, signing out.
Historically Force was made to have Synergy with END stat. The change to +Healing% for bubble strength is a bad one.
PRE stat is now the only stat needed for support all support mechanics. Instead of having the need to go to any other stat for support, it instead does a lot to unseat the needed balance between stats.
END needs to be good in and of itself, and not by riding on the coat tails of other mechanics, forced in as the square peg to END's round hole. This was tried already with EGO in the past, and its flaws were seen clear as day.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
It would scale with END/EGO and be called Force Advancement.
While I like the suggestion, I'll disagree on the scaling. It would need to be accessible to all types of PFF users. So instead of End/Ego, why not just have it scale to your Primary Superstat?
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
While I like the suggestion, I'll disagree on the scaling. It would need to be accessible to all types of PFF users. So instead of End/Ego, why not just have it scale to your Primary Superstat?
or superstats period. :biggrin:
That way everyone wins.
If you're still doing bloodmoon edits--is there any way you can give a small questionite reward for the werewolf vs. Hunter PVP missions? That'd be neat.
Other way around, actually. The ATs currently, due to a bug, do more damage.
Only if they're alive - remember can't deal damage if you die. My poor lil cursed typically has to pull all the tricks out when she's stuck as tank/dps. But that's why I said damage isn't so much a factor, ATs can generally put out more damage if they're built properly for it, however the lack of survivability on said ATs easily rounds it out. No one chooses an AT over FF given the option, except maybe crazy keiko
Please don't, I use PFF on a melee character and I'm usually best served energywise by INT or REC, please don't add pressure to stat END. The only reason Defiance get's away with scaling off of CON is because a non-PFF defensive toon is going to want it anyway.
PFF isn't just for Impulses, it's for everyone. Please, make it scale on regular +healing%.
While I like the suggestion, I'll disagree on the scaling. It would need to be accessible to all types of PFF users. So instead of End/Ego, why not just have it scale to your Primary Superstat?
or superstats period. :biggrin:
That way everyone wins.
and Force needs a heal for HP. >_>
I'm aware it is, it just seems that Impulses and only some FF builds use it thats all. As for scaling, I agree people shouldnt be penalised for not having END/EGO. As both mainscrizz and Cyrone say, make it scale on superstats. Having it scale on all three, with primary having a profound effect and secondaries having a smaller effect.
As for the Force having a HP heal..it would be difficult to sell, but I have suggested one.
Only if they're alive - remember can't deal damage if you die. My poor lil cursed typically has to pull all the tricks out when she's stuck as tank/dps. But that's why I said damage isn't so much a factor, ATs can generally put out more damage if they're built properly for it, however the lack of survivability on said ATs easily rounds it out. No one chooses an AT over FF given the option, except maybe crazy keiko
I liked AT's due to their simplicity but most of the time, perhaps with the Master AT as an exception their flaws became increasingly aparent.
Generally I build for PvE, but even then flaws in the Impulse AT, like layering, lack of healing to HP and shield as well as a redundant power (Force Snap) and the need for Concentration as a form option as well as IDF, all became an issue.
As it stands, and rightly so, I cant stand up against most FF builds, I'm still trying to make the perfect build for my force toon, but so many thematic attacks are lacking :eek:
For example I had to improvise Vengance to be a force field slamming down on my foes for a stun/paralyze effect but I quickly removed it.
I wasn't talking about the shield strength itself, I was talking about proposed Resurgence like heal for PFF. The shield strength being boosted by +heal% is actually pretty annoying since it doesn't also boost your regen at all and the regen gets weaker as shield strength goes down.
My PFF Tank is the only toon I've ever had die in Radiation Rumble, and it was due in part to the massive shield bonus that being irradiated gave. (The rest was because I didn't realize that Freon worked for VIPER. ****ing VIPER.)
URGH! Tell me about it! They have got to be the worst villain group for PFF users >_>, I mean seriously Pulson Tech which can through block and 100% PFF STILL kill you.
I hate VIPER and once I get my ForceGirls Impulse based build off the grounds I will run SL and dish out the hate.
I have suggested the scaling to be on Super Stats as that is more reliable than +healing.
I did suggest a while ago that END be given a +shielding Mechanic, just like PRE has +healing. However I am thinking that perhaps END PFF users should get a higher Shield Strength bonus than say DEX PFF users, but not too much perhaps like a 500 shield HP increase or so. This could be a bad idea, as forcing people to choose END..so ignore the last sentence xP
Only if they're alive - remember can't deal damage if you die. My poor lil cursed typically has to pull all the tricks out when she's stuck as tank/dps. But that's why I said damage isn't so much a factor, ATs can generally put out more damage if they're built properly for it, however the lack of survivability on said ATs easily rounds it out. No one chooses an AT over FF given the option, except maybe crazy keiko
I suppose it really boils down to what you are looking for. For me it is a pure balls to the wall glass cannon set up doing as much damage as possible within the theme. Discovering just how much more damage the character could do if he was an AT (which wasnt an option when he was created back during headstart in '09) convinced me to stop playing him. Knowing that I had paid for the character to be less good at what I designed him to do than someone else gets for free pretty well killed any enthusiasm for the character.
Thank you for all of the great feedback this past weekend.
We are now reverting back to out usual weekday build to further test Halloween Event-related content.
We will be iterating on vehicles and the UNTIL mission through the week, and will have another update this Friday.
You may notice some issues with your Halloween becritters once the build is reverted due to a data mismatch(possibly later today).
I plan on pushing an update this evening which should resolve any issues.
Thank you for all of the great feedback this past weekend.
We are now reverting back to out usual weekday build to further test Halloween Event-related content.
We will be iterating on vehicles and the UNTIL mission through the week, and will have another update this Friday.
You may notice some issues with your Halloween becritters once the build is reverted due to a data mismatch(possibly later today).
I plan on pushing an update this evening which should resolve any issues.
Thanks!
Can we also see updates to the forgotten T0 combos such as Reaper's Caress?
How about we see a few more dual pistols buffs, Holdout shot anyone?
Thank you for all of the great feedback this past weekend.
We are now reverting back to out usual weekday build to further test Halloween Event-related content.
We will be iterating on vehicles and the UNTIL mission through the week, and will have another update this Friday.
You may notice some issues with your Halloween becritters once the build is reverted due to a data mismatch(possibly later today).
I plan on pushing an update this evening which should resolve any issues.
Thanks!
NUUUUUUUUUUUUU! I just copied over my telepath for the express purpose of sorting out her build T_T....
How about we see a few more dual pistols buffs, Holdout shot anyone?
Why do you say we need to buff Holdout Shot? Seems just fine to me.
Rank 2 w/ Stim Pack, 8.3 energy cost, 4.5 second recharge, 3-4k crit on my character that uses it (Night Warrior passive). Crits also cause the heal to crit. Severity on the power is a static 100% so the heal gets doubled too.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
Why do you say we need to buff Holdout Shot? Seems just fine to me.
Rank 2 w/ Stim Pack, 8.3 energy cost, 4.5 second recharge, 3-4k crit on my character that uses it (Night Warrior passive). Crits also cause the heal to crit. Severity on the power is a static 100% so the heal gets doubled too.
First off, I immediately know you are int primary with ALOT of int, here are my reasons why.
1) The 20% energy requirement is too extreme for the subpar damage, it needs to be made easier to achieve (Its not easy if your character is good).
2) The Cooldown is too long, its not 4.5 second recharge for most people, its 6 seconds or so, with good gear.
3) Severity is not static, it adds 100% of the damage after crit ontop of it.
4) The advantage may crit with the attack, but it does not scale with any heal bonuses.
5) Considering this is supposed to be the spike of dual pistols, it gets you at max ~8k crit at rank 3, if you get the 20% energy requirement AND crit, this is not impressive, it would be if it were easier to do.
I don't want a damage or heal buff though, I want mechanical buffs, IE make the bonus damage grant at 40% energy, or remove that whole mechanic and bake the double damage in to the initial. Shorten the cooldown slightly, or at least streamline the activation time a bit. Or give it mobility (giving it a mobility specific animation).
First off, I immediately know you are int primary with ALOT of int, here are my reasons why.
1) The 20% energy requirement is too extreme for the subpar damage, it needs to be made easier to achieve (Its not easy if your character is good).
The 20% energy makes the power situational. We need more situational (I feel). And your remark about "It's not easy if your character is good"? No, just no. The "saboteur" squad I run with makes excellent use out of the 20% or lower energy for double damage and we are on the higher ends for DPS. It *IS* possible to build a character that incorporates low energy briefly.
2) The Cooldown is too long, its not 4.5 second recharge for most people, its 6 seconds or so, with good gear.
I did say on "my character that uses it". Yes, the character is Int. Primary Int in fact. Coupled with a 4.5 second Mini Mines, 6.1 second Particle Mine and 8.9 second Orbital Cannon with MSA, this attack for the spike damage you mentioned later in your post comes at the start of a fight. Queue Orb Cannon -> drop Particle Mine -> Assassin Strike -> (now at below 20% energy) Holdout Shot.
3) Severity is not static, it adds 100% of the damage after crit ontop of it.
Severity is static. Holdout Shot at below 20% energy deals *double damage* non-crit. The critical at below 20% then doubles that damage with it's innate 100% severity.
4) The advantage may crit with the attack, but it does not scale with any heal bonuses.
Yes, it would be nice if it scaled with +Healing (will double check and edit accordingly), but with a crit, the heal's first tick for me is at 1-1.2k with every tick after it half that amount. Pretty decent if you ask me.
5) Considering this is supposed to be the spike of dual pistols, it gets you at max ~8k crit at rank 3, if you get the 20% energy requirement AND crit, this is not impressive, it would be if it were easier to do.
Max ~8k at rank 3 with 20% or lower energy and crit....for *single digit energy cost* is pretty darn good.
I don't want a damage or heal buff though, I want mechanical buffs, IE make the bonus damage grant at 40% energy, or remove that whole mechanic and bake the double damage in to the initial. Shorten the cooldown slightly, or at least streamline the activation time a bit. Or give it mobility (giving it a mobility specific animation).
Doing the above mentioned changes (except for the mobility, I would like to see a sideways lunge added to it) would cause the power to lose the situational effectiveness of it. Why ask to change something that technically isn't broken?
Replies above.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
As far as situational, thats the problem, its 'situational' benefits are not rewarding, I'd rather see a higher energy cost for higher damage, 8k is weaker than just about anything I can spam and never need to drop my energy too low (because it constantly feeds back thanks to forms and EUs).
Energy costs aside (thats all this thing has, cost efficency), its still not worthwhile to take as a spike hit for Dual pistols, it'd probably be better off if we got an actual true spike though, but my main arguement is Holdout Shot is too inconsistent and too situational. (I still promote a shortened cooldown, easier energy requirements, and possible mobility).
Also, again with crit, it does exactly this, adds 100% damage onto the attack, and the crit damage (aka, my 1k Holdout shot becomes 2k because I crit, and since I have 100% severity (120% are my actual numbers) the power totals at 3k). For more numbers on how 8k-9k is posible:
Rank 3 Holdout shot ~1.5k. If below 20% energy double damage so ~3k. 3k + 100% damage for critting...6k, add on the crit itself which is a (for the example) 100% severity crit on a 3k hit, grants me a total of 9k on that hit.
(In actuality you will probably never get past 1.2k or so, 9k is essentially unreasonable, however possible with high enough severity).
First off, I immediately know you are int primary with ALOT of int, here are my reasons why.
None of these statements are very accurate. INT primary isn't a requirement at level 40 for Holdout Shot to be quick, and I don't consider 170 INT (my alt :P) as "a lot."
1) The 20% energy requirement is too extreme for the subpar damage, it needs to be made easier to achieve (Its not easy if your character is good).
Even when I didn't have INT statted, I was able to have Holdout Shot ready whenever I needed it, and I still do, a bit too often in fact LOL but I'm not complaining. Holdout Shot was also the only heal I needed.
2) The Cooldown is too long, its not 4.5 second recharge for most people, its 6 seconds or so, with good gear.
Again, with 170 INT, My cooldown is now less than that and I don't consider 170 a lot of INT.
3) Severity is not static, it adds 100% of the damage after crit ontop of it.
4) The advantage may crit with the attack, but it does not scale with any heal bonuses.
5) Considering this is supposed to be the spike of dual pistols, it gets you at max ~8k crit at rank 3, if you get the 20% energy requirement AND crit, this is not impressive, it would be if it were easier to do.
I really don't see why any of this is a problem. Holdout Shot does everything I need it to do; I use it as a second heal (currently) and I plan to use it more effectively in the future. I actually had 3 heals at one point and HS was one of them; I had all the health points I needed, which was usually 100% of them. :P None of my other heals damage hostile targets while healing me. :P
Also, it does quite a bit of damage, especially for a heal. :P Even with a defensive passive, it did about 4k max for me, which is fine because I wasn't trying to use it as a finishing move, which is not what it's for, as far as I'm concerned.
I mean, unless you're trying to do 15k to beat ebon ruin, there's really no problem with this power.
I don't want a damage or heal buff though, I want mechanical buffs, IE make the bonus damage grant at 40% energy, or remove that whole mechanic and bake the double damage in to the initial. Shorten the cooldown slightly, or at least streamline the activation time a bit. Or give it mobility (giving it a mobility specific animation).
Holdout Shot doesn't need to be buffed, but if it is, it helps me. :P Cooldown is short enough for me.
As far as situational, thats the problem, its 'situational' benefits are not rewarding, I'd rather see a higher energy cost for higher damage, 8k is weaker than just about anything I can spam and never need to drop my energy too low (because it constantly feeds back thanks to forms and EUs).
Energy costs aside (thats all this thing has, cost efficency), its still not worthwhile to take as a spike hit for Dual pistols, it'd probably be better off if we got an actual true spike though, but my main arguement is Holdout Shot is too inconsistent and too situational. (I still promote a shortened cooldown, easier energy requirements, and possible mobility).
Also, again with crit, it does exactly this, adds 100% damage onto the attack, and the crit damage (aka, my 1k Holdout shot becomes 2k because I crit, and since I have 100% severity (120% are my actual numbers) the power totals at 3k). For more numbers on how 8k-9k is posible:
Rank 3 Holdout shot ~1.5k. If below 20% energy double damage so ~3k. 3k + 100% damage for critting...6k, add on the crit itself which is a (for the example) 100% severity crit on a 3k hit, grants me a total of 9k on that hit.
(In actuality you will probably never get past 1.2k or so, 9k is essentially unreasonable, however possible with high enough severity).
Guess there's no other way around this. Don't like the power? Don't use it. If you can spam something else for more damage, do that. Don't go trying to change a power that I know numerous people enjoy the way it is. If the situational part of the power is too much of a pain, don't use it.
I did a total damage calculation on my Spc. Tannigan character and he's able to (with some prep time) dish out ~40k damage instantly with Holdout Shot included in the combo.
I see what you're saying and acknowledge it but I fail to see what the problem is because the power works exceptionally well for me.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
As far as holdout shot goes, I don't find value in taking it in it's current state outside of theme, but I see where both of you are coming from.
Considering how bad particular muni powers performed, holdout wasn't nearly as bad, but it's never been surprisingly good either.
Wanting a buff/update/etc so that there would be a specific reason to justify taking the power, I totally understand.
As for feeling its fine in its current state, it hasn't been as bad off as other powers in the set, and at least is functional, not horribly behind like TGM or lead temp has been.
My experience with Holdout Shot stemmed from using the Specialist AT, I only ever died when I didnt use Holdout shot or when dodge failed me. Having lowish HP and high crit chance does help with this power.
CD wasnt that much of an issue for me, I was able to get enough distance and then hit it to get a nice burst of healing when it critted.
Yeah, totally man. If you don't like PFF, you shouldn't use it. Not like it needs buffs or anything. In fact, lets revert the last buffs it got, because obviously, if you don't like the power, you can just not use it.
This is **** logic and you know it. I think you also fully understand why Holdout Shot is a badly designed power, on multiple levels. But in case you don't:
Holdout shot is logically the go-to heal for a pistols centric build, a very energy efficient setup. It rests in a set that, as a whole, is very energy efficient. Its gimmick triggers off being in a state of low energy. These are the facts.
with minimal energy stats, having little outside of EGO's energy discount on ranged powers and what can be had on gear, I can build energy with my main attacks, TGM and LT. Now, this isn't terribly unusual these days, as many sets have this ability. However, most of them also have a way to dump said energy, whereas pistols builds, and even Munitions as a whole, can have a hard time doing this.
Logically, given this, Holdout Shot should at least have a one point advantage that allows it to actually work the OTHER way around, dealing more damage and using more energy the higher your energy level. From a thematic point of view it doesn't make any more or less sense since the idea of emptying a clip could be applied to doing a maintain or two just as easily as being low on energy. Heck, using movie logic, who needs to even reload to begin with? Holdout shot's functionality exists solely as an extension to the flair of the power, and sadly it's implemented in a way that is completely backwards with the rest of the set's flow.
As it stands, until SOMETHING is adjusted about this power, it will always be at partial if not full odds with the set it's in.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
I would really like it if Personal Force Field put a visible aura on your character just like Inertial Dampening Field, the cool shiny pulse that came up every few seconds that was totally colorable.
Maybe the Personal Force Field variant would be different because it would be a solid aura, rather than pulsing, since the force field is always on. The aura would then disappear when your force field's hit points were at zero.
I like the visual effect for Personal Forcefield the way it is. Just look what happened to Acrobatics. :P
xao, you're talking about logic when you're the guy who insists it's the player's fault for pvp being imbalanced because they don't follow "the rules" (there are none) >_>
Cyrone has stated several times that PFF does need to be improved; he also stated that he can still use it because he wants to. Holdout shot needs no buffs; it's fine the way it is, and it's much easier to use than PFF.
Considering the only AT that uses holdout shot runs Dex/Ego/Str... yah it kinda is. :rolleyes:
I wasn't talking about my Specialist AT. I was talking about my current freeform alt. Next time, read my replies more carefully before you roll your eyes.
I'm going to ignore the first part, because not only are you twisting my words out of shape (as usual, I really have come to expect this by now), but it has no place here. However:
Cyrone has stated several times that PFF does need to be improved; he also stated that he can still use it because he wants to. Holdout shot needs no buffs; it's fine the way it is, and it's much easier to use than PFF.
Just because the facts don't suit you, doesn't mean you can push them aside. Holdout shot is not fine, and does have problems, one way or the other. I outlined them, you can choose to ignore them, but they are there.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
I have to agree with Xao, as he pointed out the main issue of Holdout Shot, its as simple as putting in a 1 point advantage...but Holdout Shot needs something.
Breakaway Shot needs something aswell, alot more infact.
It's a non-issue. Breakaway Shot is overpowered. No, seriously, Holdout Shot and Breakaway are great powers and there's nothing wrong with them, unless you're just trying to make pistols more competitive in pvp.
I'm going to ignore the first part, because not only are you twisting my words out of shape (as usual, I really have come to expect this by now), but it has no place here. However:
Just because the facts don't suit you, doesn't mean you can push them aside. Holdout shot is not fine, and does have problems, one way or the other. I outlined them, you can choose to ignore them, but they are there.
You're actually ignoring the facts I presented. You just said it. :P The fact of the matter is Holdout Shot is intuitive and easy to use and there's nothing to complain about.
heh... Learn to play, it's that simple. :P
Funny how you say I'm twisting words because that's exactly what you're doing to me now. Also, there's nothing to twist because you basically spelled out your sentiment on another topic, but the same type of misinterpretation occurs here. No one needs INT primary to use Holdout Shot enough. This is absolute fact. I don't consider 170 INT to be a lot, so I was hoping for a more formal definition.
Go back and re-read my replies and those of others instead of just skipping what you don't agree with.
Nice, so all you've got is projecting your own faults onto others- after they've been pointed out none the less- and telling people to "learn to play," which given your past statements I'm inclined to believe you in fact know less about the game, let alone the nuances and difficulties of balance and design, than any of the people you're arguing with.
It's really hard to ignore what's not there. I've read your posts on the subject, and as of yet, you've provided no relevant facts, and little real argument. This is unsurprising: Anyone with sufficient knowledge of mechanics and powers doesn't need holdout shot's problems explained to them.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
I'm quite happy to see the changes to Force. PFF being layered under all other shield powers is something that's sorely needed and a step in the right direction.
TGM getting a 60% damage increase :eek: It's about time munitions got a little love and hopefully improvements will continue to be made to the set. It's a pity that I've retired my dual pistol char. Maybe this change will get me to remake her.
On the subject of Hold-out Shot...realistically speaking it's not that great a power choice, even though I do consider it a personal must-have for thematic reasons. Considering the fact that any crit-based build revolving around munitions would definitely take the crit-based energy unlock called Killer Instinct (why wouldn't anyone?), I don't see its situational low-energy crit-buff as a great asset to have. Besides, you'll be doing better, consistent DPS shooting off TGM, SMG or automatic rifle then having to wait for the opportunity to utilize Hold-out Shot's crit-buff.
Personally I never took Hold-out Shot for the crit-buff aspect and only because it had a cool animation, provides at least a servcieable low-CD soft heal option and fits my character thematically.
There's little to write home about Breakaway Shot either. It has a very cool animation but it totally goes against what it should be doing relative to game mechanics. You're doing a mid-air somersault backwards as some sort of evasive maneuver but you still get hit full blast anyway. In my opinion Breakway Shot should at least give a decent dodge or avoidance (or both) bonus. I think that would work better than the leash advantage. At least give it some utility usefulness if it's not going to be a very good damaging attack.
Holdout shot is logically the go-to heal for a pistols centric build, a very energy efficient setup. It rests in a set that, as a whole, is very energy efficient. Its gimmick triggers off being in a state of low energy. These are the facts.
with minimal energy stats, having little outside of EGO's energy discount on ranged powers and what can be had on gear, I can build energy with my main attacks, TGM and LT. Now, this isn't terribly unusual these days, as many sets have this ability. However, most of them also have a way to dump said energy, whereas pistols builds, and even Munitions as a whole, can have a hard time doing this....
...As it stands, until SOMETHING is adjusted about this power, it will always be at partial if not full odds with the set it's in.
This is my take on the matter as well.
I think that Holdout Shot is not a bad power (I use it and enjoy it) but it could be better without being OP.
Id be interested in hearing your thoughts on why this is the case. Ive had very good luck with Breakaway over the years.
Its meant to be a defensive lunge, but it gives only 1 defiance stack, which is crap, with or without con, its damage is wimpy (even if it is AoE), the 40' lunge itself often pushes you out of range of most of your munitions attacks, and its bugged, it states it has a .5 second activation time when really the full animation causes the power to last longer.
Yeah, totally man. If you don't like PFF, you shouldn't use it. Not like it needs buffs or anything. In fact, lets revert the last buffs it got, because obviously, if you don't like the power, you can just not use it.
.....
Logically, given this, Holdout Shot should at least have a one point advantage that allows it to actually work the OTHER way around, dealing more damage and using more energy the higher your energy level. From a thematic point of view it doesn't make any more or less sense since the idea of emptying a clip could be applied to doing a maintain or two just as easily as being low on energy. Heck, using movie logic, who needs to even reload to begin with? Holdout shot's functionality exists solely as an extension to the flair of the power, and sadly it's implemented in a way that is completely backwards with the rest of the set's flow.
As it stands, until SOMETHING is adjusted about this power, it will always be at partial if not full odds with the set it's in.
I would still be using PFF and making it work with or without the recent changes to it. :biggrin:
Anyways, the part of your quote that's left I can totally get behind. An advantage point spent to make the mechanic based on energy work the other way would be fantastic for a munitions centric character.
I guess the reason I've been pushing against a change is the ones suggested so far would make one of my characters a little too overpowered and he's not really supposed to be. He's got a method to dump his energy to use Holdout Shot as well as get all of his energy back quickly. Raising the mechanic trigger to 40% would just cause me to do less energy dumping to hit it off. Personally, I enjoy fluctuating my energy levels to use Holdout Shot to the fullest.
Some people like the way it is now, some people don't. It's going to forever be like that in regards to powers in this game. I know this first hand from numerous PFF discussions that a vast majority of players here greatly frown upon it but I personally enjoy using it.
*Edit*
Just wanted to add this bit. I used the "Don't like it, don't use it" statement because that is the general feeling I've gotten over the past year in regards to how players feel about a lot of the powers in the game. No offence was intended by that statement.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
Its meant to be a defensive lunge, but it gives only 1 defiance stack, which is crap, with or without con, its damage is wimpy (even if it is AoE), the 40' lunge itself often pushes you out of range of most of your munitions attacks, and its bugged, it states it has a .5 second activation time when really the full animation causes the power to last longer.
Hmm, for me it is a low cost, tap spammable, AOE that can hit for 4k+ while moving me out of melee range.
Not the most potent power out there, but frequently worth using.
What would you change ?
How many stacks of defiance should an attack power give ?
I wouldnt mind seeing more damage from it, but how much should a low cost AoE tap for ? 6k, 8k, 10k ?
The part about lunging out of range of other munitions attacks can be a bummer...but isnt it supposed to be a space opener ? Something that gets you away if you want to do so ? It only puts you out of range of your other attacks if you choose for it to do so.
I would really like it if Personal Force Field put a visible aura on your character just like Inertial Dampening Field, the cool shiny pulse that came up every few seconds that was totally colorable.
Maybe the Personal Force Field variant would be different because it would be a solid aura, rather than pulsing, since the force field is always on. The aura would then disappear when your force field's hit points were at zero.
Ideally I'd like a a pulsation effect like you said when just walking around but a solid semi circle to appear when underfire/ in combat. And a violent dissipation graphic when it is deactivated.
Hmm, for me it is a low cost, tap spammable, AOE that can hit for 4k+ while moving me out of melee range.
First, 4k? Bull****, unless you mean 4k total damage from an entire group of enemies (in which case its even worse). Low cost energy? Last I checked the base was around 50 energy or so, not exacty 'low cost' especially compared to the rest of the dual pistols (annd munitions in general) set.
Not the most potent power out there, but frequently worth using.
Not really, while you 'spam' that power, I'll just deal the real damage with shotgun blast, Torrent of Arrows even does better work.
What would you change ?
How many stacks of defiance should an attack power give ?
Its pretty obvious that Defiance is there as a mechanical use for Enrage (which part of the set is based on). A mechanic long dead, Breakaway should be granting Dodge chance (3/6/9%) or a flat resistance bonus.
I wouldnt mind seeing more damage from it, but how much should a low cost AoE tap for ? 6k, 8k, 10k ?
Damage isn't the want, more like better utility, a damage buff would be fine (maybe up to your 'legendary" 4k). It needs the defense buff to change. That, and an energy cost reduction, and the animation bug causing the power to last more than the listed time should be fixed.
The part about lunging out of range of other munitions attacks can be a bummer...but isnt it supposed to be a space opener ? Something that gets you away if you want to do so ? It only puts you out of range of your other attacks if you choose for it to do so.
Thats not the point, the issue is it doesn't give you real benefits, While someone might use Breakaway, I could just use a PBAoE and be more effective (Rank 2 + adv lead tempest, better defense while attack, and 360 degree 50' range, Epidemic for 5X the damage output, Hurricane for 3X the damage output).
I think Holdout Shot could use a buff. I think people take it for thematics, coolness, and the not-entirely-useless heal aspect. It's still got a lot of room for help. Especially if one wants rank 3 to be worth taking. If you don't have Stimpack, what do you have?
It should flat out do more base damage, I think. Especially for it's activation time. Though if they can add more of a sideways lunge, I'd be all for that too.
Breakaway Shot...needs a bit too. For me it has always been hard to justify taking despite ultra-coolness.
Maybe make it an actual maintain so it just keeps firing as you fall away (ultimately this is conceptually what it should do IMHO), and make the lunge a bit less or increase it's total range.
Holdout Shot can hit for 9.5k on a tap, for single-digit energy. I'm not sure that needs a buff.
Similarly, 3-4k on Breakaway isn't that shocking either. 2k is more common, though. Breakaway's main issue, to me, is that the damage comes well after the shooting animation, and it behaves in a clunky manner compared to EM.
Similarly, 3-4k on Breakaway isn't that shocking either. 2k is more common, though. Breakaway's main issue, to me, is that the damage comes well after the shooting animation, and it behaves in a clunky manner compared to EM.
Agreed.
I most frequently see 2-3k from Breakaway, but my highest to date crit was 4.2k.
Comments
Please don't, I use PFF on a melee character and I'm usually best served energywise by INT or REC, please don't add pressure to stat END. The only reason Defiance get's away with scaling off of CON is because a non-PFF defensive toon is going to want it anyway.
PFF isn't just for Impulses, it's for everyone. Please, make it scale on regular +healing%.
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Historically Force was made to have Synergy with END stat. The change to +Healing% for bubble strength is a bad one.
PRE stat is now the only stat needed for support all support mechanics. Instead of having the need to go to any other stat for support, it instead does a lot to unseat the needed balance between stats.
My PFF Tank is the only toon I've ever had die in Radiation Rumble, and it was due in part to the massive shield bonus that being irradiated gave. (The rest was because I didn't realize that Freon worked for VIPER. ****ing VIPER.)
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END needs to be good in and of itself, and not by riding on the coat tails of other mechanics, forced in as the square peg to END's round hole. This was tried already with EGO in the past, and its flaws were seen clear as day.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
While I like the suggestion, I'll disagree on the scaling. It would need to be accessible to all types of PFF users. So instead of End/Ego, why not just have it scale to your Primary Superstat?
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
or superstats period. :biggrin:
That way everyone wins.
and Force needs a heal for HP. >_>
@Scrizz :biggrin:
Now you'll see just how far behind your ATs were in performance, generally less in the damage department, but easily as far as survival goes
Other way around, actually. The ATs currently, due to a bug, do more damage.
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Only if they're alive - remember can't deal damage if you die. My poor lil cursed typically has to pull all the tricks out when she's stuck as tank/dps. But that's why I said damage isn't so much a factor, ATs can generally put out more damage if they're built properly for it, however the lack of survivability on said ATs easily rounds it out. No one chooses an AT over FF given the option, except maybe crazy keiko
I'm aware it is, it just seems that Impulses and only some FF builds use it thats all. As for scaling, I agree people shouldnt be penalised for not having END/EGO. As both mainscrizz and Cyrone say, make it scale on superstats. Having it scale on all three, with primary having a profound effect and secondaries having a smaller effect.
As for the Force having a HP heal..it would be difficult to sell, but I have suggested one.
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I think my gear is bugged actually.. I copied my Impulse over to PTS and her superstats increased by 3 lol. Giving me a 7.9k PFF
I can survive alot better, but making a decent build is going to be tough, I'm not used to having a power tray filled with powers
I thought DR was added in by the Devs, as a sympathy touch for AT's
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I liked AT's due to their simplicity but most of the time, perhaps with the Master AT as an exception their flaws became increasingly aparent.
Generally I build for PvE, but even then flaws in the Impulse AT, like layering, lack of healing to HP and shield as well as a redundant power (Force Snap) and the need for Concentration as a form option as well as IDF, all became an issue.
As it stands, and rightly so, I cant stand up against most FF builds, I'm still trying to make the perfect build for my force toon, but so many thematic attacks are lacking :eek:
For example I had to improvise Vengance to be a force field slamming down on my foes for a stun/paralyze effect
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URGH! Tell me about it! They have got to be the worst villain group for PFF users >_>, I mean seriously Pulson Tech which can through block and 100% PFF STILL kill you.
I hate VIPER and once I get my ForceGirls Impulse based build off the grounds I will run SL and dish out the hate.
I have suggested the scaling to be on Super Stats as that is more reliable than +healing.
I did suggest a while ago that END be given a +shielding Mechanic, just like PRE has +healing. However I am thinking that perhaps END PFF users should get a higher Shield Strength bonus than say DEX PFF users, but not too much perhaps like a 500 shield HP increase or so. This could be a bad idea, as forcing people to choose END..so ignore the last sentence xP
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BUG;Got one AF from driter shop but can't open it. Cant equip as device, right click, left click, double click, no works.
And plz think about price of costumes. 60 is too much expencive and do you contain [Legacy Power Replace Items' costume unlock parts] in it?
AF...10salvage
Costume...40salvage(20 is better for me. There are too much lost piece in game)
Device...60salvage(There are many OP device too)
...are good i think.
I suppose it really boils down to what you are looking for. For me it is a pure balls to the wall glass cannon set up doing as much damage as possible within the theme. Discovering just how much more damage the character could do if he was an AT (which wasnt an option when he was created back during headstart in '09) convinced me to stop playing him. Knowing that I had paid for the character to be less good at what I designed him to do than someone else gets for free pretty well killed any enthusiasm for the character.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Thank you for all of the great feedback this past weekend.
We are now reverting back to out usual weekday build to further test Halloween Event-related content.
We will be iterating on vehicles and the UNTIL mission through the week, and will have another update this Friday.
You may notice some issues with your Halloween becritters once the build is reverted due to a data mismatch(possibly later today).
I plan on pushing an update this evening which should resolve any issues.
Thanks!
Can we also see updates to the forgotten T0 combos such as Reaper's Caress?
How about we see a few more dual pistols buffs, Holdout shot anyone?
NUUUUUUUUUUUUU! I just copied over my telepath for the express purpose of sorting out her build T_T....
Oh well...
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Yes, it's back again.
Join Date: Aug 2009 | Title: Devslayer
Why do you say we need to buff Holdout Shot? Seems just fine to me.
Rank 2 w/ Stim Pack, 8.3 energy cost, 4.5 second recharge, 3-4k crit on my character that uses it (Night Warrior passive). Crits also cause the heal to crit. Severity on the power is a static 100% so the heal gets doubled too.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
First off, I immediately know you are int primary with ALOT of int, here are my reasons why.
1) The 20% energy requirement is too extreme for the subpar damage, it needs to be made easier to achieve (Its not easy if your character is good).
2) The Cooldown is too long, its not 4.5 second recharge for most people, its 6 seconds or so, with good gear.
3) Severity is not static, it adds 100% of the damage after crit ontop of it.
4) The advantage may crit with the attack, but it does not scale with any heal bonuses.
5) Considering this is supposed to be the spike of dual pistols, it gets you at max ~8k crit at rank 3, if you get the 20% energy requirement AND crit, this is not impressive, it would be if it were easier to do.
I don't want a damage or heal buff though, I want mechanical buffs, IE make the bonus damage grant at 40% energy, or remove that whole mechanic and bake the double damage in to the initial. Shorten the cooldown slightly, or at least streamline the activation time a bit. Or give it mobility (giving it a mobility specific animation).
Replies above.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
As far as situational, thats the problem, its 'situational' benefits are not rewarding, I'd rather see a higher energy cost for higher damage, 8k is weaker than just about anything I can spam and never need to drop my energy too low (because it constantly feeds back thanks to forms and EUs).
Energy costs aside (thats all this thing has, cost efficency), its still not worthwhile to take as a spike hit for Dual pistols, it'd probably be better off if we got an actual true spike though, but my main arguement is Holdout Shot is too inconsistent and too situational. (I still promote a shortened cooldown, easier energy requirements, and possible mobility).
Also, again with crit, it does exactly this, adds 100% damage onto the attack, and the crit damage (aka, my 1k Holdout shot becomes 2k because I crit, and since I have 100% severity (120% are my actual numbers) the power totals at 3k). For more numbers on how 8k-9k is posible:
Rank 3 Holdout shot ~1.5k. If below 20% energy double damage so ~3k. 3k + 100% damage for critting...6k, add on the crit itself which is a (for the example) 100% severity crit on a 3k hit, grants me a total of 9k on that hit.
(In actuality you will probably never get past 1.2k or so, 9k is essentially unreasonable, however possible with high enough severity).
None of these statements are very accurate. INT primary isn't a requirement at level 40 for Holdout Shot to be quick, and I don't consider 170 INT (my alt :P) as "a lot."
Even when I didn't have INT statted, I was able to have Holdout Shot ready whenever I needed it, and I still do, a bit too often in fact LOL but I'm not complaining.
Again, with 170 INT, My cooldown is now less than that and I don't consider 170 a lot of INT.
I really don't see why any of this is a problem. Holdout Shot does everything I need it to do; I use it as a second heal (currently) and I plan to use it more effectively in the future. I actually had 3 heals at one point and HS was one of them; I had all the health points I needed, which was usually 100% of them. :P None of my other heals damage hostile targets while healing me. :P
Also, it does quite a bit of damage, especially for a heal. :P Even with a defensive passive, it did about 4k max for me, which is fine because I wasn't trying to use it as a finishing move, which is not what it's for, as far as I'm concerned.
I mean, unless you're trying to do 15k to beat ebon ruin, there's really no problem with this power.
Holdout Shot doesn't need to be buffed, but if it is, it helps me. :P Cooldown is short enough for me.
Guess there's no other way around this. Don't like the power? Don't use it. If you can spam something else for more damage, do that. Don't go trying to change a power that I know numerous people enjoy the way it is. If the situational part of the power is too much of a pain, don't use it.
I did a total damage calculation on my Spc. Tannigan character and he's able to (with some prep time) dish out ~40k damage instantly with Holdout Shot included in the combo.
I see what you're saying and acknowledge it but I fail to see what the problem is because the power works exceptionally well for me.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
As far as holdout shot goes, I don't find value in taking it in it's current state outside of theme, but I see where both of you are coming from.
Considering how bad particular muni powers performed, holdout wasn't nearly as bad, but it's never been surprisingly good either.
Wanting a buff/update/etc so that there would be a specific reason to justify taking the power, I totally understand.
As for feeling its fine in its current state, it hasn't been as bad off as other powers in the set, and at least is functional, not horribly behind like TGM or lead temp has been.
CD wasnt that much of an issue for me, I was able to get enough distance and then hit it to get a nice burst of healing when it critted.
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Considering the only AT that uses holdout shot runs Dex/Ego/Str... yah it kinda is. :rolleyes:
People are broken. - Lum the Mad
Yeah, totally man. If you don't like PFF, you shouldn't use it. Not like it needs buffs or anything. In fact, lets revert the last buffs it got, because obviously, if you don't like the power, you can just not use it.
This is **** logic and you know it. I think you also fully understand why Holdout Shot is a badly designed power, on multiple levels. But in case you don't:
Holdout shot is logically the go-to heal for a pistols centric build, a very energy efficient setup. It rests in a set that, as a whole, is very energy efficient. Its gimmick triggers off being in a state of low energy. These are the facts.
with minimal energy stats, having little outside of EGO's energy discount on ranged powers and what can be had on gear, I can build energy with my main attacks, TGM and LT. Now, this isn't terribly unusual these days, as many sets have this ability. However, most of them also have a way to dump said energy, whereas pistols builds, and even Munitions as a whole, can have a hard time doing this.
Logically, given this, Holdout Shot should at least have a one point advantage that allows it to actually work the OTHER way around, dealing more damage and using more energy the higher your energy level. From a thematic point of view it doesn't make any more or less sense since the idea of emptying a clip could be applied to doing a maintain or two just as easily as being low on energy. Heck, using movie logic, who needs to even reload to begin with? Holdout shot's functionality exists solely as an extension to the flair of the power, and sadly it's implemented in a way that is completely backwards with the rest of the set's flow.
As it stands, until SOMETHING is adjusted about this power, it will always be at partial if not full odds with the set it's in.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
Maybe the Personal Force Field variant would be different because it would be a solid aura, rather than pulsing, since the force field is always on. The aura would then disappear when your force field's hit points were at zero.
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xao, you're talking about logic when you're the guy who insists it's the player's fault for pvp being imbalanced because they don't follow "the rules" (there are none) >_>
Cyrone has stated several times that PFF does need to be improved; he also stated that he can still use it because he wants to. Holdout shot needs no buffs; it's fine the way it is, and it's much easier to use than PFF.
I wasn't talking about my Specialist AT. I was talking about my current freeform alt. Next time, read my replies more carefully before you roll your eyes.
Just because the facts don't suit you, doesn't mean you can push them aside. Holdout shot is not fine, and does have problems, one way or the other. I outlined them, you can choose to ignore them, but they are there.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
Breakaway Shot needs something aswell, alot more infact.
You're actually ignoring the facts I presented. You just said it. :P The fact of the matter is Holdout Shot is intuitive and easy to use and there's nothing to complain about.
heh... Learn to play, it's that simple. :P
Funny how you say I'm twisting words because that's exactly what you're doing to me now. Also, there's nothing to twist because you basically spelled out your sentiment on another topic, but the same type of misinterpretation occurs here. No one needs INT primary to use Holdout Shot enough. This is absolute fact. I don't consider 170 INT to be a lot, so I was hoping for a more formal definition.
Go back and re-read my replies and those of others instead of just skipping what you don't agree with.
It's really hard to ignore what's not there. I've read your posts on the subject, and as of yet, you've provided no relevant facts, and little real argument. This is unsurprising: Anyone with sufficient knowledge of mechanics and powers doesn't need holdout shot's problems explained to them.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
TGM getting a 60% damage increase :eek: It's about time munitions got a little love and hopefully improvements will continue to be made to the set. It's a pity that I've retired my dual pistol char. Maybe this change will get me to remake her.
On the subject of Hold-out Shot...realistically speaking it's not that great a power choice, even though I do consider it a personal must-have for thematic reasons. Considering the fact that any crit-based build revolving around munitions would definitely take the crit-based energy unlock called Killer Instinct (why wouldn't anyone?), I don't see its situational low-energy crit-buff as a great asset to have. Besides, you'll be doing better, consistent DPS shooting off TGM, SMG or automatic rifle then having to wait for the opportunity to utilize Hold-out Shot's crit-buff.
Personally I never took Hold-out Shot for the crit-buff aspect and only because it had a cool animation, provides at least a servcieable low-CD soft heal option and fits my character thematically.
There's little to write home about Breakaway Shot either. It has a very cool animation but it totally goes against what it should be doing relative to game mechanics. You're doing a mid-air somersault backwards as some sort of evasive maneuver but you still get hit full blast anyway. In my opinion Breakway Shot should at least give a decent dodge or avoidance (or both) bonus. I think that would work better than the leash advantage. At least give it some utility usefulness if it's not going to be a very good damaging attack.
This is my take on the matter as well.
I think that Holdout Shot is not a bad power (I use it and enjoy it) but it could be better without being OP.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Id be interested in hearing your thoughts on why this is the case. Ive had very good luck with Breakaway over the years.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Its meant to be a defensive lunge, but it gives only 1 defiance stack, which is crap, with or without con, its damage is wimpy (even if it is AoE), the 40' lunge itself often pushes you out of range of most of your munitions attacks, and its bugged, it states it has a .5 second activation time when really the full animation causes the power to last longer.
I would still be using PFF and making it work with or without the recent changes to it. :biggrin:
Anyways, the part of your quote that's left I can totally get behind. An advantage point spent to make the mechanic based on energy work the other way would be fantastic for a munitions centric character.
I guess the reason I've been pushing against a change is the ones suggested so far would make one of my characters a little too overpowered and he's not really supposed to be. He's got a method to dump his energy to use Holdout Shot as well as get all of his energy back quickly. Raising the mechanic trigger to 40% would just cause me to do less energy dumping to hit it off. Personally, I enjoy fluctuating my energy levels to use Holdout Shot to the fullest.
Some people like the way it is now, some people don't. It's going to forever be like that in regards to powers in this game. I know this first hand from numerous PFF discussions that a vast majority of players here greatly frown upon it but I personally enjoy using it.
*Edit*
Just wanted to add this bit. I used the "Don't like it, don't use it" statement because that is the general feeling I've gotten over the past year in regards to how players feel about a lot of the powers in the game. No offence was intended by that statement.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
Hmm, for me it is a low cost, tap spammable, AOE that can hit for 4k+ while moving me out of melee range.
Not the most potent power out there, but frequently worth using.
What would you change ?
How many stacks of defiance should an attack power give ?
I wouldnt mind seeing more damage from it, but how much should a low cost AoE tap for ? 6k, 8k, 10k ?
The part about lunging out of range of other munitions attacks can be a bummer...but isnt it supposed to be a space opener ? Something that gets you away if you want to do so ? It only puts you out of range of your other attacks if you choose for it to do so.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Trying to make them offensive powers is just a case of square peg/round hole. Tank powers work in a 50ft range and isn't underpowered, it's expected.
I have been saying this for a while now.
Ideally I'd like a a pulsation effect like you said when just walking around but a solid semi circle to appear when underfire/ in combat. And a violent dissipation graphic when it is deactivated.
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They do...omg, Tried converting my specialist into a dodge, LR dual pistol FF build and OMG!!!!!!!!
I LOVE IT
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Are we talking 4k+ damage for each target being in the AoE arc or 4k+ damage in total for multiple targets?
If it's the previous, I've never had Breakaway Shot hit for that high before, even when crit'ing.
Thats not the point, the issue is it doesn't give you real benefits, While someone might use Breakaway, I could just use a PBAoE and be more effective (Rank 2 + adv lead tempest, better defense while attack, and 360 degree 50' range, Epidemic for 5X the damage output, Hurricane for 3X the damage output).
It should flat out do more base damage, I think. Especially for it's activation time. Though if they can add more of a sideways lunge, I'd be all for that too.
Breakaway Shot...needs a bit too. For me it has always been hard to justify taking despite ultra-coolness.
Maybe make it an actual maintain so it just keeps firing as you fall away (ultimately this is conceptually what it should do IMHO), and make the lunge a bit less or increase it's total range.
Similarly, 3-4k on Breakaway isn't that shocking either. 2k is more common, though. Breakaway's main issue, to me, is that the damage comes well after the shooting animation, and it behaves in a clunky manner compared to EM.
Agreed.
I most frequently see 2-3k from Breakaway, but my highest to date crit was 4.2k.
For those, "asking," that was per target.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.