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Role Balance

selpheaselphea Posts: 1,229 Arc User
edited October 2012 in Suggestions Box
I know On Alert gave significant buffs to the roles, but I feel the changes have led to new problems with them.

Tanks, as has been mentioned in other threads, lag behind in damage and are unnecessarily penalized in energy management, causing them to lag behind the Hybrid role.

Damage dealers have also been affected. Having three superstats powering their passives and buffed Forms and Offense on gear have pushed their offense numbers well into diminishing returns territory. A character with an offensive passive does about 15% more damage than an equivalent character with a defensive one, but takes about 150% more in return. It's vastly disproportional and makes playing a DPS a lot harder in post-On Alert content like Harmon and Gravitar.

The two offense-oriented passives that stand out are Quarry and AoPM, mainly because they buff stats rather than straight up damage which hits a diminishing returns wall.

Taking Quarry as an example: with Int as a superstat, the combined damage buff from Audacity overshadows the damage from even non-Physical offensive passives while offering much better defense.via Ego. This is because Audacity buffs Ego and Int, leading to extra ranged damage from Ego, extra superstat bonus from Int and extra damage from Concentration running off Int. There might even be extra crit chance thrown in there depending on Primary superstat.

AoPM is a similar deal, although more focused on pushing crit chance and crit damage through the roof via sky high superstats and the right specializations to take advantage of them while conveniently hitting the softcap on every stat.

So once again, the most effective offense-oriented characters probably aren't running in an Offense role, but Hybrid role with AoPM or even Defensive passives.

HP buffs also seem to be handed out disproportionately to the amount of risk a given role puts themselves into. Melee damage dealers get the same HP as Ranged, even though they are usually up in front next to the tanks and take the same amount of AoE damage as them.

Support characters also get a HP penalty, even though they have to be at point blank range to use resurrection skills, and expose themselves to the same amount of risk melee characters do for the window needed to rez. This is mitigated somewhat by bubbles and access to a pseudo-defensive passive like AoRP, but this assumes that all support characters will take either a bubble or AoRP.

The extra energy management granted to Support role is also somewhat archaic, as it was carried over from a time when there was no cost reduction on Utility items, no healing Form (Compassion) and there were only 2 superstats to choose from. Support probably still needs a bit of extra energy management, but not nearly as much as they're getting now.

Trouble is, I listed all these problems, but I'm not sure how they should be fixed because of the potential domino effect of something as wide-ranging as character roles and passives. Making melee DPS beefier could potentially make melee DPS better tanks than tanks. Raising the damage on offensive passives or lifting the diminishing returns cap would make things die faster than they already are, and the game would have to be rebalanced to reflect that. And if offensive passives don't get higher damage, what else should they get to have something going for them? Gimmicks like applying Clinging Flames just don't cut it. Support is another tricky one. The low end of Support survivability, like Radiants, are the squishiest in the game, but some of the tankiest builds are designed to run in Support role.

I've been refraining from posting because I couldn't come up with a perfect solution, but it feels restrictive to be limited to a small number of viable powers and builds, hence a suggestion thread with no real suggestions =x
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • championshewolfchampionshewolf Posts: 4,376 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    The problem with balance right now is that Range and Melee are essentially equal, thanks to all the buffs being handed out. Tank role needs a bit more threat management but past that I think it was a mistake to make ranged and melee identical mirrors of each other, just for the opposite thing. Hybrid role has been and will always be the red headed step child throwing balance askew. It gives too much comparably to all the other roles.
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  • polishlightningpolishlightning Posts: 404 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    I wonder what removing diminishing returns from the Ranged and Melee Roles would do for balance? Thoughts?
  • championshewolfchampionshewolf Posts: 4,376 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    I wonder what removing diminishing returns from the Ranged and Melee Roles would do for balance? Thoughts?

    Destroy it. Question shouldn't even have to be asked.
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  • polishlightningpolishlightning Posts: 404 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Destroy it. Question shouldn't even have to be asked.

    What if it was raised then to say 1.5x what it is now? And I'm just talking about damage, not any of the other diminishing returns skills.
  • championshewolfchampionshewolf Posts: 4,376 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    What if it was raised then to say 1.5x what it is now? And I'm just talking about damage, not any of the other diminishing returns skills.

    Ranged and melee both receive the same damage multiplier, this has nothing to do with diminishing returns, and as far as I am aware, these multipliers are not affected by diminishing returns, at least in the same way as stat boosts, since the role bonuses themselves are multipliers after the fact.
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  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Roles bonus is multiplicative, it is very strange the ranged dps role is better (higher energy bonus) then the melee dps role.
  • championshewolfchampionshewolf Posts: 4,376 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    aiqa wrote: »
    Roles bonus is multiplicative, it is very strange the ranged dps role is better (higher energy bonus) then the melee dps role.

    Well additive and multiplicative is a fallacy, as all the bonuses are multiplicative. It just depends on how they are multiplied that matters.

    Over all, the ranged damage bonus should have been lower with less perks over melee. Ranged is range and has a huge advantages. People that rush into melee with their ranged toon shouldn't be complaining when they get swatted like a fly.

    Melee should have more perks over ranged as far as damage, energy returns and what not are concerned.
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  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Ok ok, to be precise they are multiplicative with all other bonuses. :tongue:
  • championshewolfchampionshewolf Posts: 4,376 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    On a note about hybrid role, hybrid should be jack of all trades and master of none. Unfortunately, hybrid role is currently jack of all trades and master of them all. In short, hybrid role needs a few reductions otherwise its going to keep overshadowing all the other roles.
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  • selpheaselphea Posts: 1,229 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    I definitely think Ranged Damage feels like it's in a pretty good place right now, if it weren't for the Hybrid role being what it is right now. Except for a control power penalty which doesn't make much sense, but no one uses those so it's pretty moot.

    To solve the problem of diminishing returns and Quarry overshadowing every other passive for Ranged probably needs a radical rework of damage calculation entirely. I'd suggest dropping all Crit Severity increases by 40%, i.e. Ruthless gives 6%, Merciless gives 9%, Dex Mastery gives 12% and drop the base 150% multiplier to 30%, then raise the diminishing returns ceiling so that base damage per hit with an offensive passive slotted and 8 stacks of Form is about 15% higher than current values, i.e. a 4k Ebon Ruin will hit for 4.6k, but an 8k crit drops to 7.3k. Net DPS should remain roughly the same, but the higher end becomes slightly higher and the lower end slightly lower. The game becomes less crit-centric and stacking raw damage boosts becomes more viable, making both non-Dex builds and raw damage-based offensive passives more attractive.

    Melee damage, I'm not so sure about. Melee skills already cost less energy and do more DPS, and melee passives give more bonus damage than ranged (except Quarry), so the bulk of the Ranged/Melee distinction seems to be done at the Powers level rather than Roles. I'd suggest that for the Melee DPS role, a +10% HP bonus and +5% damage resistance

    As for the Hybrid role, if my two suggestions are implemented, along with the suggestion for Tanks in the other thread, IMO all they'd need is for their secondary superstat bonuses to be brought in line with other roles, i.e. at 50% primary instead of 75%.
  • championshewolfchampionshewolf Posts: 4,376 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    selphea wrote: »
    I definitely think Ranged Damage feels like it's in a pretty good place right now, if it weren't for the Hybrid role being what it is right now. Except for a control power penalty which doesn't make much sense, but no one uses those so it's pretty moot.
    Ranged is in a better spot than it should be. There is no question about that. Ranged is ranged, and has the advantage of ranged and time to take out people. The fact that ranged has the same damage multiplier as melee is just silly.
    To solve the problem of diminishing returns and Quarry overshadowing every other passive for Ranged probably needs a radical rework of damage calculation entirely. I'd suggest dropping all Crit Severity increases by 40%, i.e. Ruthless gives 6%, Merciless gives 9%, Dex Mastery gives 12% and drop the base 150% multiplier to 30%, then raise the diminishing returns ceiling so that base damage per hit with an offensive passive slotted and 8 stacks of Form is about 15% higher than current values, i.e. a 4k Ebon Ruin will hit for 4.6k, but an 8k crit drops to 7.3k. Net DPS should remain roughly the same, but the higher end becomes slightly higher and the lower end slightly lower. The game becomes less crit-centric and stacking raw damage boosts becomes more viable, making both non-Dex builds and raw damage-based offensive passives more attractive.
    There isn't a problem here. People pick quarry because it's an easy mode passive, not because of diminishing returns, which you will doubtful notice even with a passive and offensive click active. Just people's expectations of how mucht heir damage should change is over inflated. Most people think when they see that their damage for an attack is 700 to 1500 they think a power that says "raises damage 30%" means their 700 point tap attacks should be doing 210 more damage. This is their error for not knowing how the system actually works. In short, they think it's diminishing returns, when it isn't. Hell, outside of a few extreme builds the diminishing returns value shouldn't even be effecting you that much.
    Melee damage, I'm not so sure about. Melee skills already cost less energy and do more DPS, and melee passives give more bonus damage than ranged (except Quarry), so the bulk of the Ranged/Melee distinction seems to be done at the Powers level rather than Roles. I'd suggest that for the Melee DPS role, a +10% HP bonus and +5% damage resistance
    Your approximation doesn't figure in time to target, target movement or anything like that because ranged doesn't have to deal with it, at all. Ranged having equal damage modifiers was a mistake. Melee should be doing higher damage and cost less energy because ranged doesn't have to deal with things like positioning, distance or moving targets. It's ranged, they get to just stand still technically if they want to, as long as the target is in ranged. People using the argument that damage and energy costs of melee are lower thinking it's unfair don't understand the basics.
    As for the Hybrid role, if my two suggestions are implemented, along with the suggestion for Tanks in the other thread, IMO all they'd need is for their secondary superstat bonuses to be brought in line with other roles, i.e. at 50% primary instead of 75%.

    If your two suggestions are implemented you would just give ranged a bigger damage boost it doesn't need and stills haft melee. You would do nothing for tanks in general, and hybrid will still be, essentially, better.
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  • blkjackwilliamsblkjackwilliams Posts: 256 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Honestly, I think Hybrid is fine.

    Tank would be fine if they ditched the endurance penalty and gave a 10% boost to heals/heals recieved.

    Give Melee a 10%-15% endurance discount and good resistances to roots/slows and the roles are golden.
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