Why the heck is kevin poe so strong?

chalupaoffury

You wanna talk about a difficulty increase? Let's discuss kevin poe.

He's got lifedrain, 2 gun mojo, shadow embrace, breakaway shot, grasping shadows, this guy's got more powers than some of the bosses I've fought at 40. I watched my fiancee (who's not exactly a slouch, even new) bash her face off of poe for like an hour before she finally took him out.

Now, I'm certainly never one to say "can we take the teeth out of some content? I want the game to be easier", but seriously. Watching her try to take him out, as a new silver, I gotta wonder how many new players have gotten to him and just flipped the hell out/uninstalled. Is there any reason why one of the hardest fights in the game happens at like level 8? Seriously, even if you know to block his life drain, he's still hard for some of my freeforms to take out. Adding to that the fact that canada is now higher level, newbies have no choice but to die to poe like 20 times just to progress.

I'm all for harder content (No, seriously. Lots of it) but this can't be helping new player retention. There's *no need* for such a hard boss during a time where people are still figuring out how the heck the game works. So... Ugh, I can't even believe these words are coming out of my mouth.

One of the bosses in this game is way too hard, and needs a nerf. I actually miss the old force Kevin Poe.

Ok, I feel dirty.

fudgemonsta

I can't exactly agree with Poe being difficult. I still don't understand how some people have trouble with Talos either.

Some people just have better luck then others. I've never once gone under 50% HP against Poe or Talos with any character, from a pure DPS build to a Support build.

He just doesn't seem to be difficult in any way, at least to my experience. Obviously people have trouble with him, but sometimes its not the boss being difficult that is the issue.

nextnametaken

You need to block and you need to break line of sight if he's putting too much hurt on you.
I think I was taken down at level 8 or 9 by him as a healer or something, maybe inventor.
Maybe every character I ever went in solo with half my gear on, none of my advantage points spent.

People used to get rolled by him all the time. Its really the first "help me" mission.
I've played with at least a thousand people in that mission.
They should name the building after me.

chalupaoffury

Oh, no. She was a grimoire, and she was dropping the sigils then pathing so he couldn't hit her (doesn't always work, don't forget that npcs can often shoot through walls) and doing every mmo trick I can think of. It *really* doesn't help that he has no tell for his lifedrain, you basically only notice it go off after he's started to regen some of his life, and block in this game is... well... Special. Slow is a word I could use. But, I'm not talking about my own experience. I've got the vet healing devices and generally tend to have like 3 or 4 different healing options on me at any given point. but, I'm not a brand new silver who's never fought a boss before. That's more my point, I don't mind a challenge, but that early and that fast? They, what, go to mc and ask for help, then have to go all the way back through the content? It's daunting, to say the least. IMO, you should at least be level 15 before the difficulty really ramps up. Poe's difficulty just skyrockets out of nowhere, and then you come back to the simple grind again. It's literally a "wtf, where the heck did that come from?" kinda moment. That smacks of bad design.

forrksakesexco

Been a while since I've done early content and came out of the Poe arc thanking my lucky stars (still five btw) that I hadn't dialed up to elite. Note to self never dial elite till the build comes together (self heal, energy management, good AOE) never never never...
Lolz I nearly died versus some trash mobs in the sewer, didn't see em till after I'd chopped down another mob and was wondering what was taking my health. Luckily I was able to evade them using my heroic Runaway tactic. Followed by bellowing in best Al Pacino voice "You think you can take me?! I outrun all your f**kin bullets!"
In the Poe encounter I was bundled by both the mob and Poe which got dicey but remembering my heroic rallying cry "Runaway Runaway!" I managed.
What an amazing achievement it is... Experienced FF player manages content on Normal without dying, am I awesome or what?

chalupaoffury may have a point but what has he done with EvilTaco?

chalupaoffury

forrksakesexco wrote: »

Experienced FF player manages content on Normal without dying, am I awesome or what?

Ah ha. Yoink.

nextnametaken

Depends on your ability in the game.
"Why'd it have to be purple" is too much for some people even
though the previous missions basically had them beating on the same guys.
I started teaming with people because my level 7 mind got totally destroyed in there.
I was probably wearing level 2 and 3 gear with no relevance to my archetype from the Tutorial back then.

Getting people to team up for Poe while you are at Kodiak is usually really easy.
I won't even run Poe solo on a lowbie toon, its just more satisfying bringing
backup and helping some newbie through this bit of the game.

jonsills

Well, as I used to tell my players when they wanted me to include Foxbat as one of the villains in almost every adventure, "Just remember - the bad guys get XP too."

(One day I actually figured up the XP they'd given Foxy by fighting him so much. The next time they met him, his costume was armored, he had boot jets to turn his Gliding into actual Flight, and his Ping-Pong-Ball Gun had turned from its usual OAF into an OIF, being built into his right sleeve...)

agentnx5

chalupaoffury wrote: »

Oh, no. She was a grimoire, and she was dropping the sigils then pathing so he couldn't hit her (doesn't always work, don't forget that npcs can often shoot through walls) and doing every mmo trick I can think of. It *really* doesn't help that he has no tell for his lifedrain, you basically only notice it go off after he's started to regen some of his life, and block in this game is... well... Special. Slow is a word I could use. But, I'm not talking about my own experience. I've got the vet healing devices and generally tend to have like 3 or 4 different healing options on me at any given point. but, I'm not a brand new silver who's never fought a boss before. That's more my point, I don't mind a challenge, but that early and that fast? They, what, go to mc and ask for help, then have to go all the way back through the content? It's daunting, to say the least. IMO, you should at least be level 15 before the difficulty really ramps up. Poe's difficulty just skyrockets out of nowhere, and then you come back to the simple grind again. It's literally a "wtf, where the heck did that come from?" kinda moment. That smacks of bad design.

Grimoire... My first archetype I used when I started. It's been abused and nerfed to hell by the developers from what it was.


Initially it was the maintain heal that got nerfed, for some reason I still don't get.

Then because people whined about people using Imbue to empower sigils so they'd critical 100% of the time, they nerfed Grimoire again. Instead of fixing imbue they removed criticals from the sigils.

And finally most recently they've double-nerfed AoPM, because of whiners again saying it was OP, mostly with regards to Unleashed Rage and/or Force Cascade. (see a pattern here?)


Frankly I think they need to repeal the nerfs on AoPM. Freeform min/maxers will ALWAYS use whatever is most proficient, so what the hell difference does it make? Really? The damage that has been done to Grimoire (and Mind for that matter, because instead of just removing Malevolent Manifestation they ruined Ego Storm) is kind of disheartening and angers me a bit.


Back to Poe though.

1. A boss is supposed to give tells (often with those sprites above their heads) just before they attack. Instead Poe just initiates the attack with no tell. That's a bug. (and really, are you surprised there's yet another bug in this game? There's a reason I keep harping on and on about needing bug fixes as the #1 priority)

2. Yeah he's a bit ridiculous having all those mix-matched random powers. He used to be a Force/Impulse archetype, and frankly I miss that. In the lore I believe he actually has mentalist and force powers. Shadows/Darkness powers on him COMPLETELY ignores the existing lore about him. He's not a member of Demon, he's an angry little kid who had parents that were in PSI before Psimon betrayed them. I'm sure a PnP fan can probably correct me on the details of the lore, but in general I believe this is what the story was.

rokurocaris

chalupaoffury wrote: »

One of the bosses in this game is way too hard, and needs a nerf. I actually miss the old force Kevin Poe.

I agree. Also, his second costume was much better.
But that's what actually suited his character better. Kevein Poe isn't dark and edgy, he is dorky and annoying. The new powers and costume didn't improve him in any way. :rolleyes:

beldin

I agree that he is hard for his level. With my earth character i only survived him with the use
of an old heal-device for example. Sadly for new players there are no more heal-devices
before level 10.

Also he is the only low level Boss where people often asked for help, and since you are forced
to do Westside, since Canada was set to lvl 15, he is maybe also one of the reasons why
people prefer to go directly into alerts with level 6 :rolleyes:

Personally i often just take Infernal with Devour Essence for the first levels and retcon after Poe :redface:

pugdaddy

Quickly clear his henchmen first.
Next, pull him into the hallway if you're using a melee toon. When he jumps away, he won't be so far. He aways pulls Evasive Maneuvers after doing 2 Gun Mojo.
Know when to block and when to do damage.
Grab a healing potion from the vendor by the Tailors in Ren Cen. The cool-down for potions makes using more than 1 problematic so avoid using it until you have no other option.

If you can, you might take a Dockside Dustup mission just to get some levels before facing Poe.

beldin

pugdaddy wrote: »

Grab a healing potion from the vendor by the Tailors in Ren Cen. The cool-down for potions makes using more than 1 problematic so avoid using it until you have no other option.

If you can, you might take a Dockside Dustup mission just to get some levels before facing Poe.

Like i said .. the lowest healing devices you can buy are now level 10 or 11 .. since you are
normally lvl 9 when you have to do Poe .. no healing if you don't want to leech in Alerts :redface:

dragonbluey

Frankly I'm surprised that anyone who thinks "You're just in time... TO BE TOO LATE!" is legitimate villain monologue is even able to scratch me. Kevin Poe seems like someone that I should be having a Dexter/Mandark slap fight with.

jonsills

dragonbluey wrote: »

Frankly I'm surprised that anyone who thinks "You're just in time... TO BE TOO LATE!" is legitimate villain monologue is even able to scratch me. Kevin Poe seems like someone that I should be having a Dexter/Mandark slap fight with.

I remember high school well enough to know that glibness of tongue has nothing to do with prowess in combat, else I would have reigned supreme over all (as opposed to being routinely beaten by Neanderthaloid football players that could barely string three words together).

Kevvy might not be the brightest bulb on the non-denominational-holiday tree, but he was apparently bright enough to make at least one deal with John Devil (as seen in the intro cinematic for "Lemurian Antiquities")...

chalupaoffury

pugdaddy wrote: »

Quickly clear his henchmen first.
Next, pull him into the hallway if you're using a melee toon. When he jumps away, he won't be so far. He aways pulls Evasive Maneuvers after doing 2 Gun Mojo.
Know when to block and when to do damage.
Grab a healing potion from the vendor by the Tailors in Ren Cen. The cool-down for potions makes using more than 1 problematic so avoid using it until you have no other option.

If you can, you might take a Dockside Dustup mission just to get some levels before facing Poe.

Problem with that: currently when you first engage him he also aggros with everyone else in the room. Remember how you used to be able to slowly pull the room? Nope, now you fight everyone, die, then get a shot to legitimately fight him. Nothing like having a fight that starts you a star down if you're not (the pretty non-existent) elite level 8 build, with a bunch of resources because you *specifically* knew this fight was coming.

Notice how most of the feedback about actually beating him involves heal devices (and yeah, lol the only one I ever have at that moment is my vet device, which new players don't have) or knowing beforehand that you had this fight coming up, and asking for help/level grinding a bit. Not much of that really helps the new player who just stumbles in and gets roflstomped, which is pretty much exactly my problem. Heck, I'd even prefer a tell of lifedrain over the tell for his hold. A hold won't kill me, he can fully regen if the new player doesn't know that his mechanic is a damage/self heal combo.

But, again, I'm mostly coming at this from the perspective of a veteran having watched a new player try this fight for the first time. I mean, old Kevin was a jerk with his detonations. At least he didn't self heal, so all you had to do was watch for the tells and block.

Totally agreed that the old costume fit him better. The new one's cooler, but old Poe really seemed to fit better, lore considered. At least, if they're gonna grimdark him up, they can change the voice acting to match.

jonsills

From outside the room, target one of the mobs inside. (You might need to get really close to the door, especially if you're a Might toon and have to throw a forklift or something at them to get their attention.) Then step back a bit, so you don't accidentally enter the room while you're fighting them. Done right, when you do enter, there will be Poe and one minion. Shortly after that, there should only be Poe and you...

forrksakesexco

Sheesh am now level 12 with my Ice form frost merchant..
Used to be I'd go do desert crisis at level 8 and be slightly levved up on it, do that then do the Canada crisis and get levved up even more (over the then content). By the time I got back to Mil Cit I'd be able to slaughter every living thing in the Prison Break open mission and stroll thru the story line.
Not any more...
The restrictive quest line is giving me nothing but content appropriate to my level. It's kinda rough at times. Taking Sorcerer, The Mechanic, Prof Annhialator and Black Mace in quick succession without being 3 levels up on em is kinda interesting not to mention Frank Zaretti and all his merry men. (careful how you pull)
Could it be that the devs listened to the people who wanted more challenge? I mean on elite it's gotta be pretty harsh even for good players. Be interesting to hear something from known (to me) challenge aholics, Snakebitewildlife where are you now?

chalupaoffury

Ironically, I am one of the challengeoholics. I feel like the rebalancing did help the difficulty a bit, but at the cost of any variety whatsoever.

I feel like when we asked for harder content, we weren't asking to have most content gated from us. That and, truth be told? They upped the difficulty mostly just at the very beginning, exactly where an mmo doesn't need as much. Gotta say, tho, it makes fight club a hoot.

bioshrike

I liked it better when Poe was some weasely coward who hired a no-name guy w/ superpowers to do his dirty work, (as in the earlier incarnation of this fight).

nextnametaken

Posting the best strategies will only get them changed.
But yeah, kiting the mob from the hall, grinds me that nobody ever does this anywhere.
Its always "run into the mob, be exposed in 360 degrees, get shot by everyone at once"

Kiting, playing decoy and diversion, peeling guys away from their friends, or
pulling them all into the AOE, thats when this game gets glorious.

"Trash" mobs in Radiation Rumbles are the best mobs in game, more of that venture in from off screen action please.

thargir

Another method that's worked for me against this new Poe:
Enter the room, wait for the cut-scene to end and then get some distance, taking care of the mobs with AoE attacks (SMG for example), while getting distance between you and Poe.
If done right, you've taken care of his minions and he simply returns back into the room after a while so you can take him on mano-a-mano.

But true: It is kinda difficult when literally everyone there zerg-rushes you. Poe has become significantly harder since his earlier incarnation.

Still managed to solo him lately without dieing though (and often with being only one or two levels above him). But that's player experience. A newbie will definitely die. A lot. And that can get pretty frustrating.

The later content OTOH... Well, my main is doing everything on Elite without too much of a problem...

Well, i have my fun with it. *shrugs*

rokurocaris

bioshrike wrote: »

I liked it better when Poe was some weasely coward who hired a no-name guy w/ superpowers to do his dirty work, (as in the earlier incarnation of this fight).

Tachyon isn't exactly a "no-name guy". Many of the old players miss him, including me.

Also, looking at the complicated strategies you guys came up with only proves that Poe is too difficult for new players, who might have just gotten into the game. Kevin Poe is the first boss in the game (not counting Black Talon), yet he is far more of a challenge than about every other regular supervillain outside Westside!

And there is the problem, I think: Poe became like this when Westside as a whole got another makeover, exactly one year after the last, when the game went F2P. Westside has changed twice since then, the rest of the game hasn't.

But still, that's no excuse for a difficulty spike like that. Poe needs to be nerfed, rather than the rest of the game getting "Roper'd".

beldin

It also has been changed that he now automatically attacks after the first group of mobs.
Before you had at least time to maybe heal up after that group and choose yourself
when you want to attack him.

chalupaoffury

haha I tried kiting last night. Even on my heavy dps infernal freeform, using my vet heal device, at level 10, I almost died. 'course, no 100 footer, but even experienced in the game it can be hard on a squish from time to time. I doubt a 100 foot attack woulda mattered much, though, because of how they blitz you from the second that cut scene ends.

I even went block happy on just about every move he used, just to try to come at it from the perspective of an experienced mmo player who didn't know the fight, and my life bar was flashing after getting full health from a vet item AND 2 green glowies. I think I figured out the other half of the puzzle, when it comes to how hard he is on lowbies. That lifedrain SUCKS. I think we can all agree on that. But the really rough part is that all of his powers are maintained dps except for his reverse lunge. Pretty much means that you're blocking the whole time, or getting your face chewed off while trying to swat at him. And, I mean, I was running pesti and poison stacking. Even putting 5 stacks of poison and the pesti close ranged dot, while having to block all that, it was barely enough to take him down. Wtf chance does that leave, say, an Unleashed? They've gotta spike him down, without a lunge, before his maintains burn them down.

Thing is, I like a challenge, but when the boss is basically playing like a well built freeform at that low of a level? With that many more powers than the player, and a heal? That's not a challenge, that's just broken mechanics and the devs having a serious nerd boner for Poe.

thhunterofskulls

EvilTaco, that's pretty much how I beat him with my most recent build. Pestilence + Condemn + Ebon Void block power. Basically I blocked until he dropped dead from trying to kill me.

agentnx5

chalupaoffury wrote: »

That and, truth be told? They upped the difficulty mostly just at the very beginning, exactly where an mmo doesn't need as much.

I can agree with this. I guess an optimistic way of seeing this is that your hero gets stronger through these trials by fire so that by the time your nearing level 40 you're a real legend to have survived this far. So it may not be bad, but it would have been wiser to do it the other way around.

beldin

Devour Essence is simply the best to kill him.

wharoog

With constitution over 100, Invulnerability and two gun mojo, I can take on about 20 Poes at the same time if i wanted to :cool:

xydaxyda

Nice necro or a long dead thread to inform us that you can smash Poe's face in with a freeform and a certain selection of powers. This was originally about doing it as an archetype however(The Grimoire specifically.) My suggestion to ATs who are having a hard time with Poe is to go out into Westside and find yourself a friend.

(Don't be afraid to put that second M in MMO!)

flowcyto

Prob shouldn't be bumping such an old thread, but if newer players do still have difficulty soloing this w/ ATs and whatnot, thing that works for me is running immediately up to the rafters after the cutscene and kiting the enemies up there (all the way around it and the room). W/ enough distance you'll get some out-of-combat regen and can pick off the weaker pursuing enemies before Kev gets close. Then ya can continue to kite more- sometimes Kev just evades back if you do it long enough. Obv ya may have to block some, but newer players gotta learn that pivotal mechanic eventually, so..

Going more general here as to why he can be so 'strong', since the thread is a bit too old and topical: Kev Poe in alerts (not the missions) does still have a 4-5k base dps shadow embrace he does sometimes (he also has a much weaker version he can use.. for some reason)- that one is very brutal to lowbies and non-tanks. Oddly enough, that same move is also on the master villain Shadow nems, which is why they can have HUGE bursts of dmg going out sometimes.

Part of the reason it and lifedrain (from any alert bosses that have it) hit so hard is cause they suffer from the same maintain bug (feature?) that players get where the first tick registers twice instead of once. The upfront 'burst' of those moves is quite high because of that (on top of having high base dmg).

(also, this thread would be a better fit in missions/content, if its not just gonna be locked- which it prob will be..)

crypticbuxom

Things were better when he was force. It was a good teaching tool that helped players realize that they were going to get knocked A LOT through the whole game. He didn't do significant damage like he does now but he was annoying, like he was originally supposed to be.

They could have changed him back, but we're too late for that.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

zamuelpwe

It's interesting that I'm newer than a lot of the long timers and like Kevin Poe as a boss design. Now, fixing his tells is absolutely required since that's a bug and I agree that he could stand to have shorter aggro range. Yet he winds up feeling more dynamic than a lot of bosses that just stand there.

vorshoth

To be honest, Poe makes no sense. His current powers and outfit scream 'I am a urban magic user/space mutant' when as far as I was aware, he was a daddy's boy who got the old Batman origin, then took over a gang to take down the people who killed his daddy dearest.

And he had force powers, through technology from talos, I vaguely think I recall.
It had a sort of flow to it. His current design seems, to me, to be completely out of the blue and nonsensical.

tdits

gradii wrote: »

I remember poe from the beginning of on alert, where the alert Poe was a force poe, with an OP as hell PFF, (yes OP and PFF in one sentence).

you were lucky if you could even scratch his HP before the timer ran down.

And don't even get me started on Draconis's old alert PFF. I want to break into Cryptic's warehouse of old OP ****, steal it, and put it on Quasar. Then tank Frosticus, Blaze, Gravitar, and Warlord at the same time.

chalupaoffury

vorshoth wrote: »

To be honest, Poe makes no sense. His current powers and outfit scream 'I am a urban magic user/space mutant' when as far as I was aware, he was a daddy's boy who got the old Batman origin, then took over a gang to take down the people who killed his daddy dearest.

And he had force powers, through technology from talos, I vaguely think I recall.
It had a sort of flow to it. His current design seems, to me, to be completely out of the blue and nonsensical.

Rule of Cool.

This is still a bit of an issue, fyi. I've run with a few new people (including the fiancee) and they've all pretty much gotten gibbed during this fight. Even when I'm tanking, the people with me usually drop at least once. It's a bit early in the game for that much of a power jump, no? Especially when after him the difficulty slides right back into jokeville for the next 30 levels.

tdits

Yeah, he handed me my rear the first time I fought him without a defensive passive. I'm actually more annoyed that the difficulty dropped back down afterwords.