Shadow strike over powered

powerphist

As much as I like all the new archtype powers, shadow strike realy needs tuning down. I am one shotting bosses by sneaking up behind them and doing shadow strike. I can just imagine it in pvp. My level 40 toon can do 22,000 damage with a single regular hit. While I have seen tanks with as high as 12,000 hp I think 6,000 damage in one strike is more than enough for single hit.

Just some thoughts.

By the way, awsome job on stealth and the boomerang powers.

fudgemonsta

Hitting them in PvP is the issue. Most of the time people are rather twitchy with movement and getting close enough is a big issue.

Against bosses, its a bit more of an issue. Last I recall bosses don't have any perception value, and as such it makes a bit more of a challenge to fix. Should they have perception? Should it be nerfed in power? There's quite a few answers to this question.

alodylis

Shadow strike is fine as it is. It has 44 sec CD and unless your stacking int you wont get it much faster on the CD. They could add perception for npc to see you but wtf would that be good for? Whole point is to not be seen with sneak. Only nerf needed is to make sure smoke bomb doesnt give you 42k dmg thats it.

wesleytansg

I can get shadowstrike to work every 8 secs and smoke bomb every 20 plus secs.

alodylis

Wow thats amazing guess your int pays off i was usen nanobot swarm for better CD but that wouldent even scratch your downtime. Btw your other post was right should have been more mature you all have a good one.

wesleytansg

You enjoy your break too and see you back in pvp with your own build

alodylis

thank you for your kindness and yes you def will see me with my own build take care bud

rokurocaris

fudgemonsta wrote: »

Hitting them in PvP is the issue.

Don't you see it?! It's not an issue, it's the revival of Hero Games PvP!

If you are a PvPer and don't want to get one-hit by a ninja, you have to play Hero Games A LOT in order to get the Perception gear you need to survive!

A genius plan, isn't it!? :rolleyes:

foosnark

I don't PVP, but Shadow Strike makes a mockery of solo PVE content.

My character that uses it has not taken damage from bosses at all yet, at level 19, with two minor exceptions:

-- from the Death Dragon after one-shotting Hi Pan. Not enough damage to actually worry about though.
-- miniscule damage from Talos' sparkstorm after one-shotting him.


Add it to stealth-enhanced boomerangs that wipe out entire groups of enemies and gas pellets that can wipe groups of weak enemies without unstealthing, and it just gets silly.

In fact I actually killed Frank Zaretti without even seeing him, with a boomerang crit from stealth that targetted one of his henchmen.

chalupaoffury

If this gets nerfed, I'm going to cry. It actually fits the "sneak up and murder face" ninja style, I love that power. It's situational, I've been popped out of stealth a buncha times by bosses that have some aoe, but it's fun as heck when it all works right.


I'm sure they'll eventually nerf it, a lot of people are apparently of the mindset that spike damage is bad (or something). It'd be a shame, tho, since we finally got a set that feels different from everything else in the game.

theravenforce

chalupaoffury wrote: »

If this gets nerfed, I'm going to cry. It actually fits the "sneak up and murder face" ninja style, I love that power. It's situational, I've been popped out of stealth a buncha times by bosses that have some aoe, but it's fun as heck when it all works right.


I'm sure they'll eventually nerf it, a lot of people are apparently of the mindset that spike damage is bad (or something). It'd be a shame, tho, since we finally got a set that feels different from everything else in the game.

I think they might do a DW style nerf to it...let it run for a while then BOOM INSTANERF. Which is a shame because of the amount of testing and planning which went into it in the first place, it would be a shame to cripple it.

Besides to get it to even work in PvE can take quite alot of planning and tactical work, for it not to pay off by being nerfed to some stupidly low number would be an insult to the stealth work not only Cryptic have done but also to the player who may have planned out his attack to be rewarded with something mediocre.

It's current strength fits thematically and has a reasonably long cooldown, for no abuse, besides it only takes one AoE attack or Pestilence to short out it's massive 22k dmg potential to 100 dmg xP.

I currently run a Night Avenger AT and I use the stealth as my invisibility which then also accumulates shadow energy which I can use to effectively take out my opponent, it takes a while to build up etc. It works thematically and is easily avoidable in PvP, you can see if someone has the passive and you can also hear Shadow Strike charging up which gives you an indication that you need to block or what ever. So I think with the rash of perception gear which will be farmed and optimised INT builds which will be around it will be quite a contest to see INT Perception vs DEX stealth builds.

In it's current state it is not so much Overpowered as FotM, it has just come out and will be hot property for a while I guess, until ppl start to realise some weakness such as DoT's like epidemic being a pain in the rear end for Shadow Strike/Stealth builds.

Personally, I know I can't PvP to save my life, at best, I have an annoying dodge build (Master AT), which stays annoying until dodge decides to fail and let through massive 4k hits >_>. And that is my PvP AT. I think Shadow Strike is fine as it is. It cant crit so there isnt any problem.

foosnark

theravenforce wrote: »

Besides to get it to even work in PvE can take quite alot of planning and tactical work...

No it doesn't. It is by far the easiest build in the game to play.


"Tactics" for Shadow Strike involve not getting caught. All this means is don't forget to stealth, turn off your energy builder, and don't push the wrong button accidentally.

firefly113

At least this AT actually feels different compared to most of them. It plays similarly to a stalker in that other MMO.

Dip in, strike a single enemy, get out of there. . Because if you keep fighting in Night Warrior stance, you're giving up a lot of damage for the burst you initially get. What you do to break out of stealth will decide how easy the fight is after.

Do you AoE all the minions? Do you strike the master villain and knock them out immediately? Either way, you still have threats you need to deal with, and you're dealing with it at half the damage bonus of most characters with an offensive passive and you have a laughable defense.

It's probably far more interesting to play in large groups when there are enemies all over the place, when you're diving in, striking, disengaging, then repeating (if you didn't attract any attention)

But thanks to travel powers and the fact that the game is easy in most cases, it's stupidly easy to disengage. Or you could be like me and take a second passive to switch to after you throw out the initial burst.

Please note that I'm viewing this from a PvE perspective. In PvP, I honestly don't care how outrageously OP this power is. If it's really that bad, they should tone it down for PvP scenarios only.

Edit: At least, this is comparing to the old stalker. The new one is a bit more engaging.

cptmillennium

chalupaoffury wrote: »

If this gets nerfed, I'm going to cry. It actually fits the "sneak up and murder face" ninja style, I love that power. It's situational, I've been popped out of stealth a buncha times by bosses that have some aoe, but it's fun as heck when it all works right.


I'm sure they'll eventually nerf it, a lot of people are apparently of the mindset that spike damage is bad (or something). It'd be a shame, tho, since we finally got a set that feels different from everything else in the game.

It isn't that spike damage is bad. This is about risk vs. reward. With Night Warrior, you stealth, one-shot-kill, rinse and repeat. Throwing Blades clears whole groups, and Shadow Strike one-shots every Super Villain I've come across so far, and I'm currently level 33. Night Warrior's light defenses are a complete non-issue since everything's too dead to take advantage of it.

I agree it needs to remain powerful, but you shouldn't be able to take out an SV who's clearly intended to present a significant challenge in one hit, and before they even know you're there. Instead, I think the power needs to have reduced effectiveness that scales with the opponent's rank. If I can still take a SV down by more than half with SS, sonething's still wrong.

tomquantum

firefly113 wrote: »

At least this AT actually feels different compared to most of them. It plays similarly to a stalker in that other MMO.

Dip in, strike a single enemy, get out of there. . Because if you keep fighting in Night Warrior stance, you're giving up a lot of damage for the burst you initially get. What you do to break out of stealth will decide how easy the fight is after.

Do you AoE all the minions? Do you strike the master villain and knock them out immediately? Either way, you still have threats you need to deal with, and you're dealing with it at half the damage bonus of most characters with an offensive passive and you have a laughable defense.

It's probably far more interesting to play in large groups when there are enemies all over the place, when you're diving in, striking, disengaging, then repeating (if you didn't attract any attention)

But thanks to travel powers and the fact that the game is easy in most cases, it's stupidly easy to disengage. Or you could be like me and take a second passive to switch to after you throw out the initial burst.

Please note that I'm viewing this from a PvE perspective. In PvP, I honestly don't care how outrageously OP this power is. If it's really that bad, they should tone it down for PvP scenarios only.

Edit: At least, this is comparing to the old stalker. The new one is a bit more engaging.

Hah.

No.

Someone either hasn't played an Epidemic spammer or a Devour Essence spammer or wants to deflect attention away from them.

Nothing is easier. Nothing.

Hold down one button, bash face on wasd.

Flawless victory.

ashensnow

cptmillennium wrote: »

but you shouldn't be able to take out an SV who's clearly intended to present a significant challenge in one hit, and before they even know you're there.

I would be inclined to agree with you except for the fact that this has been easily managed, in a variety of ways, since game launch without Shadow Strike.

Shadow Strike is actually LESS OP than most of the other means used for this purpose because at least the character using SS is in melee range of the supervillain's support mobs after his alpha strike. Other methods will have either destroyed the entire group because the alpha strike is an AoE, or will leave the alpha striker at long range.

Sniper Rifle, as an example, can readily manage 14k+ hits at R2 with Teflon Bullets allowing it to hit multiple targets. Even if the primary target survives that hit it will drop before it can present that significant challenge you mention.

You can achieve similarly devastating ranged alpha strikes with any number of attacks that provide more safety than is the case with Shadow Strike. Remember, being at max range with a 100-120' ranged attack is completely stealthed as far as PvE NPC's go. They wont do anything before you fire off your alpha strike...SS just gives melee something that ranged combatants have had since launch.

syntaxes

powerphist wrote: »

As much as I like all the new archtype powers, shadow strike realy needs tuning down. I am one shotting bosses by sneaking up behind them and doing shadow strike. I can just imagine it in pvp. My level 40 toon can do 22,000 damage with a single regular hit. While I have seen tanks with as high as 12,000 hp I think 6,000 damage in one strike is more than enough for single hit.

6k wouldnt be near enough, you wouldnt even be able to kill me, and im a squishy.

Tanks at lvl 40 can have upwards of 15 ~ 16k health, as well as 50% ACTUAL damage resist from gear alone, add in what they have for a defensive passive, and any dodge chance - You would be lucky to get them down to 50% with a 22k hit.

Which, knowing tanks, would rocket back up to full in a matter of seconds - as they were running at you to make you eat there fist :eek:


Thats just been my expirence :biggrin:

secksegai

powerphist wrote: »

As much as I like all the new archtype powers, shadow strike realy needs tuning down. I am one shotting bosses by sneaking up behind them and doing shadow strike. I can just imagine it in pvp. My level 40 toon can do 22,000 damage with a single regular hit. While I have seen tanks with as high as 12,000 hp I think 6,000 damage in one strike is more than enough for single hit.

Just some thoughts.

By the way, awsome job on stealth and the boomerang powers.

It doesn't need tuning down - sure the big numbers may seem impressive - but considering how long the downtime is between those hits, I easily surpass it damage wise on my dps setups ff or AT.

Pvp wise its not very major - most regular pvpers will easily see through the stealth, and even if not, said stealth is easily broken making it extremely difficult to land one at all.

I've gotten maybe 2 kills on my pve fist like assassin pvp wise - she's not built specifically for pvp like my main FF but she gave me enough of the experience to see the gaping holes. Even if you're not getting focused, outside of a one on one situation, it can be very difficult to land that SS as most opponents won't be standing around.

theravenforce

foosnark wrote: »

No it doesn't. It is by far the easiest build in the game to play.


"Tactics" for Shadow Strike involve not getting caught. All this means is don't forget to stealth, turn off your energy builder, and don't push the wrong button accidentally.

Uh, not really, if you are running a Night Warrior AT using nemesis gear, heck any gear with little/limited con and defense bonus or even with it, your defense is not exactly fantastic once you unstealth and everything gets nerfed once you unstealth, by tactics and planning I mean not just one shotting a big guy and not being able to take out/manage the room by yourself or lining them up just right.

Against dodge builds and dodge bosses such as Clyde Von Schultz in Canada, he took my 8k hit to "DODGE - 2089"...so with alot of builds I imagine stacking non target AoE powers, high defense and INT and perception cores/mods Shadow Strike is fine. I for one have only pulled it off once in a duel and that wasnt even a proper duel. It was a friend of mine saying see how much you can hit me for. He was lvl 40 I was lvl 17. (Granted I did 1 shot him on my second attempt with 8 stacks of focus and shredded debuff xP)

But still I think it is perfectly fine the way it is.

Compare it to other Alpha strikes Imbued Force Cascade, GigaBolt, Sniper Rifle, TK Lance, I have seen them all hit for at least 22k and 26k with TK Lance in Ren Cen.

So compared to 15-20k at lvl 40 it really isnt that much. My lvl 40 Tempest with 5 stacks of concentration and 5 offensive buff stacks can hit for anywhere between 5-11k twice if I half charge and spam, a recent example is today before patch where everyone got kicked from Medusa Alert except me and I finished her off with my Tempest (CharmCaster), Hitting for 17k or so every full charge + 1 spam.

Even though Shadow Strike is powerful compared to the high end freaky damage some Freeforms and even some AT's can put out, it sits comfortably below/on par with them.

I am guessing it seems OP because an AT has it >_>

BUT, that being said I do agree with the Super Villain JUAN SHOT KILLS ALL issue. Now I am NOT asking for a nerf because it already does less damage against them because of their status but also, if they have dodge or defiance, even invuln they will take ALOT less dmg regardless of defense peneration on Night Warrior Passive. My concept for my Night Warrior is a mystically powered assassin who builds up "Shadow Energy" whilst invisible. So for her concept Shadow Strike's current state is perfect.

As others have said before me it allows for a unique and different game play style which requires you to think more (Talking about AT not Freeform builds) and make sure you pick off the right enemy before getting a nasty suprise.

Apart from the fact that The Night Avenger AT snuck some major bugs into the game I like it alot and say well done to Cryptic for producing it. It works well.

Give it 2 months or even 2 weeks, perception cores will be in ppls builds and the weakness would be exposed if you will, and ppl will not really want a nerf to shadow strike when they can see if coming use and AoE and then it hits them for 150 dmg...which is like an energy builder strike xD

rokurocaris

firefly113 wrote: »

At least this AT actually feels different compared to most of them. It plays similarly to a stalker in that other MMO.

Sorry to disagree here, but there is a huge difference.
In CoX, I soloed Dr. Vahzilok with a Spines Stalker. But it took me multiple Assassin's Impaler attacks and I had to retreat into the shadows a few times.
In CO, I one-hit Ludwig with Shadow Strike. It dealt nearly 7000 HP damage, and my char was otherwise an Infernal in ranged damage role! :eek:

foosnark

theravenforce wrote: »

Uh, not really, if you are running a Night Warrior AT using nemesis gear, heck any gear with little/limited con and defense bonus or even with it, your defense is not exactly fantastic once you unstealth and everything gets nerfed once you unstealth, by tactics and planning I mean not just one shotting a big guy and not being able to take out/manage the room by yourself or lining them up just right.

I'm not playing an AT, but an FF.

Putting Alerts aside, I don't care that much about my defense (which does have some amount of dodge and avoidance) one I unstealth because EVERYTHING IS DEAD. Nothing I've soloed has survived a Shadow Strike, and most of the time you can take out everything else with a boomerang. Or even with Gas Pellets, which don't unstealth you but easily defeat minions.

I killed Clyde Von Schultz in a single Shadow Strike when he was four levels above me. Then I killed him again when he was three levels above me, using just gas pellets and boomerangs. I never worried about having an offensive build, like I would with Fiery Form or Targetting Computer or Shadow Form or the like.

In an Alert, nobody with an offensive build gets a free pass. I will usually Shadow Strike once and then GTFO and turtle up as much as I can; once I lose aggro I will use boomerangs, then get back into stealth in time to Shadow Strike again. Against AOE enemies, forget it. I consider this a relatively weak build for Alerts, but I only died once in one getting a bit overconfident. Mostly this character does the occasional Smash for the XP bonus but mostly just blows through solo quests at record speed.

theravenforce

foosnark wrote: »

I'm not playing an AT, but an FF.

Putting Alerts aside, I don't care that much about my defense (which does have some amount of dodge and avoidance) one I unstealth because EVERYTHING IS DEAD. Nothing I've soloed has survived a Shadow Strike, and most of the time you can take out everything else with a boomerang. Or even with Gas Pellets, which don't unstealth you but easily defeat minions.

I killed Clyde Von Schultz in a single Shadow Strike when he was four levels above me. Then I killed him again when he was three levels above me, using just gas pellets and boomerangs. I never worried about having an offensive build, like I would with Fiery Form or Targetting Computer or Shadow Form or the like.

In an Alert, nobody with an offensive build gets a free pass. I will usually Shadow Strike once and then GTFO and turtle up as much as I can; once I lose aggro I will use boomerangs, then get back into stealth in time to Shadow Strike again. Against AOE enemies, forget it. I consider this a relatively weak build for Alerts, but I only died once in one getting a bit overconfident. Mostly this character does the occasional Smash for the XP bonus but mostly just blows through solo quests at record speed.

Which is why I said if...

Anyway, thats pretty impressive you must have been either lucky or using some secret awesome version of SStrike that I havent got access to..because his dodge cut my damage solidly from 7k to 2k with a dodge...granted I killed him but it took some time. But really hats off to you for killing him with his annoying dodge

I think this AT as you said it more built for well Nighthawk type heroes, who work alone and get the job done fast. In Alerts I always go for ranged/ annoying minions and JUAN SHOT them and boomerang away. I feel next to useless in alerts because my damage is spike damage and works as long as they arent using pestilence or I dont get hit. And in teams where I am used to using team orientated powers or fulfilling a role, which is fine. I think that either I am showing off/being annoying when I take out a small mob or I am being unhelpful by one shotting an enemy my friend has set up for an attack.

I am not complaining about the playstyle of the AT I love it, it's just going to take time to get used to.

lotar295

well It does have a 1 min cooldown and takes you out of stealth,so theres only time to get 1 out,then you have to fight everything til either stealth kicks back in or shadow strike does,but in PVP the issue is getting close enough to the other guy to perform shadow strike,specially if he or she can fly and you're grounded,or if they have superspeed or even acrobatics,they can outrun you,teleporting and tunneling are instant get-out-of-range TPs anyways,so if the player has them,they're safe for the duration of the TP.

foosnark

I gotta admit, Mechaniste was a pain with this character. He was the first enemy Shadow Strike didn't one-shot.

Even after getting back into stealth, he'd randomly do his "looks like you're getting cold feet" thing, and once I accidentally backed far enough out of his range that he got his health back completely.

His AOE is always a hassle, and he's been troublesome to a few of my other characters as well. I probably should have waited until I was at his level instead of two levels short.

What took him out was spamming boomerang taps.

agentnx5

I have mixed feelings about this. I've been waiting for a WORKING stealth sneak-attack power for a loooooong time, but it could be overpowered, or it could be people haven't gotten used to it.

I would agree that if it can one-shot any supervillian that's probably a bit much, but then again you can do this with other power combos just as quickly and have been able to do so for a long time (i.e.: high CON + Force Cascade + Dark Transfusion + Imbue, or building up full stacks of Ego Leech + Id Mastery + TK Lance ownage) So maybe not.




Here's where I am on this: leave it alone, for now.




More specifically:

Do NOT touch the numbers balance at least for a month or two.

Do a review around New Year's and see if it's balanced or not by then. If it's still out of balance, then adjust slightly, NOT cripple it with unnecessary sledgehammering from the nerfbat.

Sound good to everyone?



PS: The power I found to be the bigger issue in my brief tests was boomerang, not the new stealth mechanic. And really all of that pales in comparison to the true issues: glitches/bugs and the lack of TRUE new content (explorable environment content that is, something that isn't just another brief 100 to 500 second alert). I strongly feel that people talking on and on about this is distracting from the far more critical issues...