test content
Logo
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
Has anyone considered that the people claiming wrongful chat bans, may deserve them?
hocofaisan
Posts: 190 Arc User
After taking some time off from the forums, I return and see lots of threads complaining about the community moderation feature In Champions Online.
Lots of anger and accusations that the system isn't a good one and that GMs need to be more involved.
Now we all know the Cryptic/PerfectWorld GMs work hard and have a lot of virtual space to cover, yet I notice everyone seems to assume that those complaining have been wrongfully banned.
I just want to bring up that those claiming innocence may have done things that deserved the ban, and then come here without telling us the entire truth. I also notice it's the same group of people repeatedly complaining about repeated bans...
No one I know in game has ever been banned, and I often converse (when I play) in MC-barrens like chat.
Maybe those claiming innocence aren't so innocent, is all I am saying.
Maybe the feature is doing it's job.
Lots of anger and accusations that the system isn't a good one and that GMs need to be more involved.
Now we all know the Cryptic/PerfectWorld GMs work hard and have a lot of virtual space to cover, yet I notice everyone seems to assume that those complaining have been wrongfully banned.
I just want to bring up that those claiming innocence may have done things that deserved the ban, and then come here without telling us the entire truth. I also notice it's the same group of people repeatedly complaining about repeated bans...
No one I know in game has ever been banned, and I often converse (when I play) in MC-barrens like chat.
Maybe those claiming innocence aren't so innocent, is all I am saying.
Maybe the feature is doing it's job.
POSITIVE ABOUT CO IN 2013!
Post edited by hocofaisan on
0
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
They are innocent as long as they are not Goldspammers, since that is for what that
feature was implemented .. and nothing else.
They are maybe guilty for landing on the ignore list of half the server, but nonetheless
players should not have thr right to mute others.
The feature was intended to combat gold sellers, unless you want to try and suggest long time players, lifetimers and forum regulars- some of which who do things like run costume contests and even moderate the forums- are RMT spamming, this "feature" is unarguably being abused.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
This isn't a simple matter of an innocent man getting punished. This isn't even a kangaroo court situation half the time. Often, this is a group of people targeting someone specific and abusing a system that shouldn't even be in their hands, just to be *******s.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
NO.
Being willing to punish the innocent to get the guilty is the way of the coward. Morality that is swayed by numbers ceases to be moral.
Regardless, this is not the issue. The issue is that one customer should not be allowed to directly control the game experience of another. The issue is that they are in violation of the ToS and the majority of players are fed up with the lack of communication "Crytpic World" has with us about the issue. That said though, recent events have made the issue more public and I say that's a good thing.
EDIT: God no. That whole, "can't make an omelet without cracking a few eggs" is pure cowardice. Sacrificing innocents to achieve your goals is WRONG.
Flare's guide to hosting and judging costume contests!
(link under construction)
We have GMs in this game?
We don't assume, we Know.
How? Simple: The intended purpose of the chat-ban function--as has been explained to us multiple times by Cryptic personnel, including StormShade--is as a method for silencing so called "gold sellers" (those spamming chat with offers that involve real money transactions) ONLY.
Have ANY of those chat-banned by this system being engaged in this activity? No. Therefore, they were wrongfully banned.
They could have been yelling obscenities for all we know or care. And even if that was the case, they were still wrongfully banned by this system, because preventing ALL chat from those you (any of us) don't approve of is NOT the intended purpose of this system. That is merely what those that defend it assume its for (but it isn't).
At the beginning, roughly for the first couple of years, this was indeed the case.
Chat ban was rarely used, and then only in extreme cases where one person was being so disruptive that a great many people were unable to play the game with any level of enjoyment.
Unfortunately, since then, Griefers have discovered it.
Now, organised groups of Griefers target individual players and keep them regularly chat banned. Costume contests are constantly targeted, with the organisers being banned every time that they announce them. And of course, just TRY to send a warning about cons, scams, or griefing in game and see how fast you find yourself banned by them and their friends.
Particularly there is a certain South American nation named for a Terry Gilliam movie. Beware of any and all super-groups from there. Organised griefing seems to be the local bored teenagers' mischief of choice. All in all, a harmless choice, mind you. Much better than the minor vandalism, theft, assault, and worst of all, Big Pants, that characterise bored teenagers in the here in the States(seriously, does EVERY SINGLE male under the age of 30 now shop at the Clown Store? I am now wistful for Parachute Pants....).
.
.
.
'Wen considered the nature of time and understood that the universe is, instant by instant, recreated anew. Therefore, he understood, there is in truth no past, only a memory of the past. Blink your eyes, and the world you see next did not exist when you closed them. Therefore, he said, the only appropriate state of the mind is surprise. The only appropriate state of the heart is joy. The sky you see now, you have never seen before. The perfect moment is now. Be glad of it.' Terry Pratchet The Thief Of Time
Aside from Thudrax's (erm, I mean canadascott's
...the idea of this system is NOT to "punish" anyone, it is, as has already been stated, purely a counter-measure to prevent goldspammers [/the end].
And this isn't a war of good vs. evil, where we HAVE to prevent ALL "wrong doers" from getting away with it, otherwise they "win". You have an issue with what anyone says in-game? That's what the ignore function is for. There is 100% ZERO need to chat-ban anyone from the game because you or even 99.9% don't approve of what they say.
And if what they were posting in chat was really so harmful or disruptive that warranted disciplinary actions beyond merely being "ignored" by those that don't approve of them, it should be up to the moderators (which granted, in this game we don't have :rolleyes:) to determine if that's the case... and ban them themselves (as any responsible company would) rather than delegate that task to the playerbase and let us lynch mob ourselves into perpetual chat silence.
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Well said, sir. Well said...
The current chat system is Mob Rule. It could act as some sort of deterrent if only rule violating chat messages were reported. But as it stands, anyone can get banned for saying anything at all, as long as enough people report or ignore them...
The only thing the current system deters anyone from doing is communicating in chat period...
M-O-O-N, that spells @Rhyatt
Originally Posted by mijjestic: Ultimately, though, MMO players throwing stones at each other in this fashion is basically one nerd pointing and laughing at another nerd whose glasses are thicker.
Laws yes!
.
I could say, that by intrenching their position on this issue, Cryptic themselves are fostering the "player controlled" atmosphere that is such the issue at hand. I could but i won't
| ME | A "Guide" Book" | | I, have a "DREAM! | ( Member since Feb 2008 ) ... ?
[SIGPIC]http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b132/AngelOfCaine/STILLS/Misc/CO-Sig_01e.png[/SIGPIC]
No it isnt, as echoed by some of the great minds of the western world...
"That it is better 100 guilty Persons should escape than that one innocent Person should suffer, is a Maxim that has been long and generally approved."
-Ben Franklin
"tis much more Prudence to acquit two Persons, tho actually guilty, than to pass Sentence of Condemnation on one that is virtuous and innocent"
-Voltaire
"...it is better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer."
-Sir William Blackstone
It has also been noted that threat of punishment is more likely to produce efforts to avoid being caught than to prevent those intent on evil from committing it.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
In the Boston area, Big Pants are being rapidly replaced with Skinny Pants . . . even if your body type dictates otherwise.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
Long answer: Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
=^ _ ^= Kitty Lives!
I am appalled by your lack of empathy and ability to reduce humanity to a mathematical equation.
Does the thought of contacting the family of someone wrongfully imprisoned or put to death to tell them that its for the best since it might deter others strike you as something you'd like to do? After all, it's for the greater good.
Pretty.Pixie
Wow, you Boston folks are behind the times. Skinny Pants are already on their way out elsewhere.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Secondly I also agree with Thundrax et al, no innocent should be sacrificed just to punish the criminals, especially when gold spammers in game are non existent.
You know, I wonder how they found out about it.
I mean, discounting the 3-4 threads about chat ban in the General Discussion forums, of course.
But seriously, I'd rather not have more players discovering this feature/exploit/whatever. I suggest E-mailing the guys in charge at this point, given that bug reports and GM requests obviously don't get answered soon enough (or even get processed in my case, it seems).
Or to put it more dramatically. PRESS IN DIRE SITUATIONS
.
..oh wait, i think Cryptic is still considering it..
And playing by myself since Aug 2009
Godtier: Lifetime Subscriber
Here we are now going to the West Side
Weapons in hand as we go for a ride
Some may come and some may stay
Watching out for a sunny day
Where there's love and darkness and my sidearm
In game as @forgemccain
It's actually a reference to this video from Yahtzee http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/218-Spore
=^ _ ^= Kitty Lives!
I took 2 weeks off a few months ago to oversee the refit of my comic/computer game shop when I game back after the said two weeks I tried to talk in zone apparently I was 11 hours into a chat ban.
You see you can get chat banned even when you haven't been on in weeks.
The spam report is busted.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
While she has been rescued
what diabolical mastermind
was behind the devious brain-napping of
the Volterrific Dr Cerebellum?
1. Never underestimate the lengths grievers will go too to grieve others.
2. Apparently normal ignores count towards the chat ban too.
Also, what happened to the report post button?
Spamming, as I've come to understand it in chat terms, is a repeat of the same message, similar messages, or otherwise a repeated posting over and over again. In short, repeating "Can sum1 invite me 2 a SG PLZ!" over and over again in the same area, or making one-word posts over and over again in a rapid amount of time, or something to that effect.
Calling someone a 'big stupid doodoohead', threating to pinch their mother's breast with dirty barbecue tongs, ridiculing a clone toon, or using the chat as a dating service- these things are NOT spam. These things are wrong, but this is not for the 'report spam' feature- this is something that should be reported. You don't drive nails with a wrench, even if it 'kind of works'.
The sad thing is, the 'Report Spam' feature keeps getting used for the following:
1- Roleplayers have used it to silence a character that they dislike- I can completely vouch for this. My character was witness to several 'demon girls' attempting to subjugate and abduct a young (teen minor) female against her will (though, the player had consented, but this is roleplay). When he challenged the 'women' in question, he was threatened, and then the out-of-character consensus was "Let's report him for spam and harassment!" (To be fair, I did suggest, out of character, that maybe trying to force a minor to become your sex slave in public was not a good idea, and if one were so inclined to play this out, perhaps it best done in team chat or a private area). I was a 'spammer' because of this.
2- This game is FULL of trolls- And if you haven't noticed it, you're either lucky or not frequent. Most of the time I hear of this happening is in the 'prime time' hours of around 7-Midnight central US time. There are trolls who find roleplayers and repeatedly blast them with slurs and other vile names. There are trolls that make huge toons to go around pushing other toons and being a pest. There are trolls who use the same powers over and over and over again to make noise and annoy people. The game is riddled with them, and you honestly don't think they get off on 'silencing other players and ruining their fun'? That's the definition of a troll, and the chat ban tool is perfect for them. It's like giving a pervert a job at a brothel with an employee discount.
3- Ignore button works just fine. Seriously. Even though many times I've seen this abused, because someone can't control their emotions or having a different opinion (And it's even sadder in Roleplay because they'll use it if your character has the audacity to tell a demon or a vampire he's not scared), BUT it shuts unwanted chat up. It works just fine.
I have honestly, in the entire time I've been playing this game, never seen a gold spammer. I see very few spammers at all (Many times, they're people using emotes and don't realize that when you have someone targeted, it shows the emote in local chat for everyone). \
In short, if someone does 'do something that might deserve it', it's not the right of any player to execute this retribution- no more than it is your job to go out and spank someone's child for misbehaving, pull over a car for speeding, or fine someone for littering. It is your duty to REPORT this, you are not the authority and no player ever should be.
Keep in mind that we have been told by Cryptic that, "Report Spam," is for real money trade spam only.
Using it for chat spam such as the examples you have provided are considered abuse of the system.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
In that case, the button should say 'report money trade' instead. I shouldn't be surprised, Cryptic's idea of 'content' is costumes and 5-minute alerts.
I agree completely.
Its hard to blame some of the people misusing this system when the only place its intended use is explained is in archived forum posts.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
The system is abusable.
Did you know that if everyone in this thread that has disagreed with you went and ignored you in-game, that you'd probably be silenced? Would you still think the system is fine, and the complainers are only people who have done something bad?
If someone doesn't like your opinion, they can ignore you, and add to your mounting chat-ban points. If someone doesn't like to hear you RP, same thing.
I've made two posts about being chat-banned. The first time it happened was before we learned the ins and outs of how the report spam feature worked, and before we knew that simple ignores can add to the list. My situation was, I came home from work, logged in, played for a couple hours, then said one thing in zone chat (an unpopular opinion, apparently
Then it was explained that it could have simply been someone ignoring me. Okay, fine, that makes perfect sense because I'm obnoxious. Moving on...
The second time, I posted because it was funny that I wasn't anywhere near a computer when it happened. Curious, yeah?
Anyway, I'm not gonna pretend that my chat bans have been born of villainy. I can deal with it, no problem.
So, not everyone who is talking about them is undeserving. And I also don't believe that anyone talking about them is always deserving.
'Report Spam' doesn't have no info that it's just for Gold Sellers so people use it to report spammers. People probably won't be abusing this, since the name points that someone looks the reports. Abusing meaning 'Just For Fun Of It'.
'Ignore' doesn't have info about it muting people, since that function seems to only exist in Cryptic games. Most of the players don't even know about it.
I think it was stated somewhere, that 'Report Spam' sends a ticket to GM who views it and takes appropriate action towards spammer or the one that sended the report. So the false 'Report Spams' shouldn't even count towards the muting.
But, the 'Ignore' seems just automute after certain numbers of ignores.
So the system works fine with 'Report Spam'. But not with the 'Ignore'.
People who abuse the 'Report Spam' are being dealed with from Cryptic/PWE side. (or not since we don't know if there is a GM there. And i'm not going to test it...)
But people who abuse 'Ignore' can roam free without any consequences.
And playing by myself since Aug 2009
Godtier: Lifetime Subscriber
The system is abusable.
That is the problem.
The inability to recognize that the system is abusable... ...AND make the decision to not make any changes to said system... ...But claim that "the abuse of the system needs to be reviewed, not the feature itself" is the problem :rolleyes:
| ME | A "Guide" Book" | | I, have a "DREAM! | ( Member since Feb 2008 ) ... ?
[SIGPIC]http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b132/AngelOfCaine/STILLS/Misc/CO-Sig_01e.png[/SIGPIC]
What should happen is that the auto silencing of both the 'report spam' and 'ignore' features should be removed. They 'report spam' function should send a log to the GMs, and they can investigate the claim. If it is found to be false, then the person who submitted it should get a generic response stating that they incorrectly used the feature and repeated false submissions will be acted upon. If they continue to submit false reports, then they will get a temporary ban, which could lead up to a permanent one.
Of course, if the claims are true, then the person that was reported would see corrective action.
A full-time GM is also needed in MC to give out warning and advice. Things like "please take your private conversation to local, tells, team chat, etc" all the way up to full-on bans.
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
I'm not buying the whole organized crime and xenophobia nonsense from rest of your post, but I do agree with your refute here.
It's true that griefers have increased in number and intensity, that's part of what happened when you compare it to the past.
This is a very archaic and cowardly form of enforcement, works on animalistic surivival behavior mechanism through fear. This logic is used in the world, but mostly by muderous terrorist groups, totalitarian regimes, and psychotic mass murderers. Hardly civilized at all, lol!
You were quite brave by creating this topic, and I do agree with the title in particular, it makes people think about it. That's a good thing.
You are undoing the good act by this one poorly worded statement -- foot-in-mouth basically. Being the internet you can recant it but you can't erase it. It's out there, you said it, some won't forget it.
Consolidate the currencies! (Please!)
Does your Champion have a theme song? (share it!)
Got a funny in-game screenshot? (share it!)
Please fix the Overdrive energy unlock! (Should help promote thematic build diversity!)
Too bad said region couldnt be one off the banned ones
You said it ***. Cryptic's solution IS the problem. I cannot believe that anyone who cared a whit about their patrons could think that allowing such a system in the first place was a good idea.
Edit: rofl; A o C, when not separated by spaces, is filtered? Must not want us to talk about Age of Conan!
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
One hopes you are not an American, cause you just burned a copy of our Constitution with that line.
Never good to let the innocent suffer - even when it helps to root out the guilty. Very quickly that leads down the path to some form of inquisition.
Sure, not all of them are innocent. However some are. Try voicing a negative opinion of Wolverine some time. Do so when there's the highest concentration of people online at the moment, and do it in Millennium City's zone chat. From what I've seen after daring people to do this, 9 times out of 10, they end up chat banned after one negative remark about Wolverine, even if it was civil.
For instance "Wolverine isn't a very good character. His powers aren't all that special, his attitude is very antisocial, and there was even one comic where he was hurling rapid fire profanity at Scott Summers over an 8 year old child." Something like that is bound to get you chat banned for 24 hours, despite it being a civil and fair criticism of the character.
In Oakland, CA in 2009, a few police officers were pinning down an innocent man named Oscar Grant. One of the police officers, officer Johannes Mehserle, stood up, drew his gun, and put a bullet into Mr Grant's back. Oscar Grant was doing nothing, he wasn't even guilty of anything. The incident was recorded with camera phones from multiple angles and posted to YouTube. Riots broke out immediately afterward.
The closest Oscar Grant came to being in the wrong was that he was in the general vicinity where the police had been called to where a fight had broken out when they were called. To the best of my knowledge, Mr Grant was not even involved in said fight.
Incase you missed that, an innocent man was put to death by law enforcement officers when no crime was even committed. Riots broke out. When innocent people are punished, it does not inspire anyone to respect the law, not even people who are already otherwise law abiding citizens. When law enforcement fails to control its own behavior and only punish those who are guilty, then the law enforcement loses control over everything else too.
↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → Ⓑ Ⓐ
Stuffy on the old CO forums. PWE ate my username.
Here's a syllogism to explain.
Premise
↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → Ⓑ Ⓐ
So does those apply on players who want to trade "WTT X items for X quantity of curreny code"? :rolleyes:
Not me, of course, i'll just grind questionites.
So to "minimize" the damage, if i report/spam/ignore someone, should i click on Help GM instead, write a not saying why?
"You can't read my mind, because i can't spell it."
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
@ZetBuster
You answered your own question.
They are targeted BECAUSE "They always seemed kind of innocuous to me, sorta like a fun community run thing that this game has over other MMO's"
If you look back into some of the archived posts about the Griefing behaviour at some of these contests it is absolutely sickening.
I mean things like people going through the trouble of actually making duplicates of the characters running the contest just to ruin it.
People posing as judges and awarding "prizes" to non-winners.
Getting together to Chat Ban the people involved in the contests so that they cannot actually interact with the participants.
And much, much more.
Seriously, look at some of the older posts. Especially Lectourum's (sorry if I spelled that wrong). He was targeted perhaps worse than anyone.
.
.
.
'Wen considered the nature of time and understood that the universe is, instant by instant, recreated anew. Therefore, he understood, there is in truth no past, only a memory of the past. Blink your eyes, and the world you see next did not exist when you closed them. Therefore, he said, the only appropriate state of the mind is surprise. The only appropriate state of the heart is joy. The sky you see now, you have never seen before. The perfect moment is now. Be glad of it.' Terry Pratchet The Thief Of Time
Now certain individual players are another matter entirely, which is why we need a quick, reliable, impartial and judicious system for silencing obnoxious players and removing and banning them from social instances when they're being disruptive.
I suppose in light of all the profound wisdom displayed in this thread we should scrap most modern judicial systems and start over in favor of the much better, infallible system we all have in mind. The problem is, in the absence of omniscience, that system doesn't exist.
The solution here? Scrap the chat-ban system from all Cryptic games and hire shifts of GMs to respond to such behavior appropriately. This is unfortunately not likely to occur given Cryptic's apparent budget and priorities.
If were talking about, say... the death penelty or even most real life situations than the answer is probably no.
But in the context of an online video game and especially when the "punishment" isn't that big a deal is really only an inconvenience, I have to side with hocofaisan.
And shame on those who implied hocofaisan is unAmerican or a coward, that's a cop-out.
This illustrates my point. These quotes were written by people speaking on entirely different situations in a different context. These are not universal truths that can be applied in ANY context without fail.
And even with all its flaws, it serves that purpose. Just this weekend, we had someone spamming the forums with CC scams and such and other ppl on the forums requesting a way to report them.... At least we have that ingame.
Things like that can not only compromise a single players security, but also the security of the whole game. We already got hacked once, an ill bet that the same ppl complaining about the chat ban will be the 1st to throw Cryptic under the buss if we get hacked again because we removed the tool that keeps CC scammers and phishing ppl out of zone chat.
I have been playing this game since 09 and have never been banned. I think its reasonable to assume that the some of the people who got chat banned, were saying some inflammatory things (regardless of your intention). Yes, people can exploit the system if you ALLOW your self to be a target, but every system has its flaws.
The criminal justice system is also flawed but that doesn't mean its logical or beneficial to just get rid of it all together.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.