Cryptic, dont forget a subset of your customers.

ashensnow

I am putting this here rather than in the suggestion forum because the matter seems to be an issue of how Cryptic views its customers rather than just an opportunity for improvement.

Simply put, CO needs to show more love for level 40 characters and those who prefer to play them.

Currently the top dog of game content, in terms of rewards, "newness," etc are Alerts. The problem is that the Alerts are designed to exclude level 40 characters from a couple of important aspects of an online game.

1) Earned performance. Alerts deprive level 40 characters of the full yield of their characters' build. People spend days, weeks, months, or (for some years) getting a character to level 40, and then have their perfomance cut in half. The sidekick down scaling is exceptionally punitive.

2) Rewards. Smash alerts provide no reward at all for a level 40 character. Burst alerts provide R3 mods, appropriate for lower level characters, at level 40. Grab alerts, at least, provide some reward for level 40's.

Tying the daily questionite farm to Alerts that are purposefully designed to reward lower level characters to a much greater degree than level 40's, while also gutting the level 40's performance by as much as 50%, is needlessly punitive.

Treating those who are not ardent altists as if they are second class citizens is unnecessary. Those inclined to reach 40 and immediately start leveling a new alt will do so. Providing equal levels of reward for those who prefer to play their level 40 characters would take nothing away from that.

Cryptic, if you are incapable of implementing alerts in a fashion that would allow 40's to retain their performance, then at least allow them to earn rewards appropriate for their level.

stoopidme

Here's an idea, xp earned at 40 is converted to unrefined questionite at a greatly reduced rate, so the xp from a smash might be worth 400Q or some similar amount.

beldin

ashensnow wrote: »

2) Rewards. Smash alerts provide no reward at all for a level 40 character. Burst alerts provide R3 mods, appropriate for lower level characters, at level 40. Grab alerts, at least, provide some reward for level 40's.

Smash Alerts, or better one specific Alert, is the only one i bother to do with level 40.

Burst .. a joke .. i find more R4/R5 mods with just doing anything else in the game

Grabs .. also .. i make much more money with doing Unity Quests.

gandales

Alerts need a balancing pass. Personal preference aside, I should feel equally motivated to play any type of alert with any boss. Currently, smash are prefer over others, some bosses like nemesis are even farmed.

neuraldamage

ashensnow wrote: »

Cryptic, if you are incapable of implementing alerts in a fashion that would allow 40's to retain their performance, then at least allow them to earn rewards appropriate for their level.

At the very least, fix the item drops so they are at the level of the player that receives the drop. Dropping lvl 30 gear for both sidekicked upwards and nerfed sidekicked downwards toons is just stupid.

haleakala

When I log into CO I first decide if I want to bother with Alerts that day or not. If I decide to, I then do them on my non max level characters, for precisely the reasons Ash specifies. This makes me wonder how common this reaction is, and if it is common, is this by design? In other words, since Alerts seem to be the only new content in the offing, are they designed to foster altism rather than provide viable endgame?

beldin

I have 40 characters .. when there is a Smash Daily i take that with all characters, when there
is Nemesis i make the daily with a bunch of character, mostly with under lvl 40s first.
If i want to level a lower Char i maybe also do Black Fang or Guy Sweetland, and really seldom
some other 2-minute Drills or Recruting Drives.

And since i have enough CPs and Q at the moment i mostly even haven't done the daily
with more than 3-5 characters before i get a new one.

So .. if they remove alerts totally today .. would i miss them ? Not at all.

I'd rather see more Unity and Nemesis Quests and of course more stuff you can get with
Nemesis Tokens .. since i have still 46.000 tokens after i already bought 10 Heirloom Sets
and see no more sense in hunting my Nemesis :redface:

Oh .. and of course a new Zone that is NOT exclusive to Vehicles :rolleyes:


Thankfully there will be a lot of new zones to explore in 9 days :cool:

helbjorn

Since I've never seen this occur, I'm curious. If five level 40's log into an alert, does it still scale down to level 30?

That aside, aren't rampages exclusively for level 40's? And aren't more pending?

somebob

helbjorn wrote: »

Since I've never seen this occur, I'm curious. If five level 40's log into an alert, does it still scale down to level 30?

That aside, aren't rampages exclusively for level 40's? And aren't more pending?

Yes it does. All the 40s lose half of their damage capability just to 'compensate' for the design of the Alert system, too.

And yes, the Rampages are designed for the 40s.

rap9

I agree, would be nice to see incentives to do more of the game or stuff more geared to 40's.

Every boss in Alerts aught to drop a Q box really.

Burst Alerts should give lvl 4 and 5 mods @40, as apposed to lvl 3 and 4.

crypticbuxom

Alerts are there to help your characters to level up. For level 40 we have Nemcon and BOTH Unity mission chains to get better gear and mods. And a nice unique mission bonus at the end of each. Sure it needs to be expanded upon, but Alerts are fine as is.

I rather see more content that has nothing to do with alerts in our future, aside from new custom alerts every so often.

agentnx5

Great topic Ashensnow!

I agree with most of what you said except for the rewards part, which I agree more with this...

beldin wrote: »

Smash Alerts, or better one specific Alert, is the only one i bother to do with level 40.

Burst .. a joke .. i find more R4/R5 mods with just doing anything else in the game

Grabs .. also .. i make much more money with doing Unity Quests.

...and that quote I agree with except for this point...

rap9 wrote: »

Burst Alerts should give lvl 4 and 5 mods @40, as apposed to lvl 3 and 4.

...and there we go. Now we're all good! lol :-D

crypticbuxom wrote: »

Alerts are there to help your characters to level up. For level 40 we have Nemcon and BOTH Unity mission chains to get better gear and mods. And a nice unique mission bonus at the end of each. Sure it needs to be expanded upon, but Alerts are fine as is.

Not really... Alerts are kind of killing open world stuff and mission "quest-chains" that end in lairs. There's a topic on that already too.

Alerts are for fun, the rewards given from Alerts compared to rewards from elsewhere in the game are what drives people after them so addictively though. Like I said in that other topic, the bell curve of an MMO's population will shift towards whatever gives the best quality rewards for the time invested.

Cryptic I'm sure knows this though. Alerts are their latest pet project for the time being, they want people playing them as much as possible.

The lost point is that it's now out of balance with everything else, just like how Shadow Colossi were. (although the lazy method Cryptic used to fix that issue was HORRIBLY bad, and unprofessional too).

crypticbuxom wrote: »

I rather see more content that has nothing to do with alerts in our future, aside from new custom alerts every so often.

We can agree on this. Specifically, explorable content. Adventure Packs, Comic Series, new PvP maps, events, and a fully detailed Zone (I'm tired of half-baked, incomplete projects)

ashensnow

crypticbuxom wrote: »

Alerts are there to help your characters to level up. For level 40 we have Nemcon and BOTH Unity mission chains to get better gear and mods. And a nice unique mission bonus at the end of each. Sure it needs to be expanded upon, but Alerts are fine as is.

I rather see more content that has nothing to do with alerts in our future, aside from new custom alerts every so often.

Alerts were not pushed by the devs as leveling content. They were advertised as content for all character levels. The implementation for characters over level 30 is just faulty.

There is more to do while leveling up than there is at level 40. A character can be played from level 1 to 40 without repeating a quest. One does not need help leveling up in a game where it was possible to get to max level in a week of play before the arrival of Alerts.

agentnx5 wrote: »

Specifically, explorable content. Adventure Packs, Comic Series, new PvP maps, events, and a fully detailed Zone (I'm tired of half-baked, incomplete projects)

I agree, though, as much as I love the concept of Adventure Packs and Comic Series, I have been very disappointed in what we have received (for the most part). Given more practice I am sure that the dev team could produce some pretty good AP style content.

bioshrike

crypticbuxom wrote: »

Alerts are there to help your characters to level up. For level 40 we have Nemcon and BOTH Unity mission chains to get better gear and mods. And a nice unique mission bonus at the end of each. Sure it needs to be expanded upon, but Alerts are fine as is.

I rather see more content that has nothing to do with alerts in our future, aside from new custom alerts every so often.

I second the notion that Alerts were never advertised as "leveling up content only". I also want to add that I've been here in CO for a while now, and since I dislike the regular Vibora Bay missions and content, I've never once opened up UNITY 2. If and when I feel an urge to play one of my 40s, I'll run UNITY 1, maybe a Nemcon, maybe a Gravitar, and on the rare occasion, perhaps a CS or AP.

I would like to see the special Alert daily and Smashes give Silver Champion Tokens to 40s. I'd also like to see Bursts give 1 R5 and 2 R4 Mods to 40s. I'd also like to see Alerts *not* sidekick players at all, and just give enemies the "Scary Monster" treatment, like from Blood Moon.

One other addition - I'd like to see the Rampages give XP if you are under 40, (since they can be played by anyone level 35 and up).

championshewolf

I am going to put my voice in this now, and I know what I will say will probably tick a few people off, but I think these points I am about to make need to be said;

1. Champions Online needs to expand, not be given small updates that only interest people for a few short minutes.

Right off the bat I am going to hit this, plain and simple. It has been two and a half years since Vibora Bay launched, the last real expansion to Champions Online. This game is starved for content, for zones, and for new challenges for the people that have been loyal to this game. We need new lairs, we need new zones, we need new missions and content, not little appetizers to appease a select group of people when your loyal players are being left in the cold wondering if they even made the right choice these days.

We want to help this game grow, we want to show off to other people what has been done, we want to brag about it, we want to get people interested, but you haven't given us anything to do to help you, Cryptic, with that aspect. You offer the best possibilities of all the F2P MMOs on the market, but we have nothing to convince people with to get them even remotely interested, other than content, for all intents and purposes, is 2 and a half years old now.

2. Everyone does not need to be given the gold star for content.

Stop dumbing down your own game to appease the weakest link. Not everyone needs to be given the gold star for all possible avenues of content. This is another thing hurting the game play as it stands, the dedicated players that want to be challenged are not being challenged because you keep turning that dial down to 0 for all the wrong reasons. The market is a shambles for this very reason, the fact everything is so easy to get and so little effort is needed, and replayability of content is practically negligible because once you've done it there's no reason to do it again.

Make content challenging and rewarding again, stop giving out the best rewards for mediocre performances. If people really want to earn something then they need to earn it, not have it handed out on a silver platter.

The game needs challenges of heroic levels, things that make us realize how tough the fight actually was, not something that can be done first try without effort or bother involved. That's not even what makes a hero let alone a super hero. Even super heroes face adversaries that can at any moment defeat them, and many are, before they actually can return and face them again. It's time to stop catering to the notion that being defeated is a bad thing.

3. We need things designed for teams.

This goes in hand with the gold star mentality mentioned previously. Not everything needs to be soloable, contradictory to many complaints. In fact a lot more should require teams. The fact that most of the hardest content can be easily solo'd by anyone with the patience or time is appalling. Your world destroying threats only get considered jokes when one person defeats it with little effort.

4. Stop saying you will do it and do it already.

I'm sorry, but we've been hearing you will add more zones and raise the level cap now for 3 years now since launch, and I've been hearing it longer than that even. Yea, things were rough at the beginning but what is being done now isn't going to help out, if you keep cutting the budget and doing as little as possible. If you want to wow the socks off the competition you are going to have to show it, and put in the stuff now, not talk about how you plan to do it. This attitude that you can sit and wait might have worked with City of Heroes, because it was the only super game around, but that is not the case anymore. Again, I want to show this off, I want to invite people to Champions, I want them to see what I actually see, but you are not giving me anything to actually work with.

5. Do not neglect your endgame players.

Whether some people can admit it or not, the endgame players do tend to write the whole picture for a game. They are also the first to leave if they see nothing to stick around for, and as SWTOR, ***, and TSW are proving can be damning for subscription numbers. Again, the tactic of waiting it out worked in City of Heroes because it was the only thing around, but it will not work here, and even in City of Heroes it kept costing you waiting around like that. We need new zones, we need new content for endgame. This disguised attempt of introducing leveling content and saying it's for everyone is a slap in the face to your endgame players. The APs were a failure to us because they were soloable, same with the comic series, and the Alerts aren't for us because we lose a huge chunk of our abilities in the process. The only thing you've actually done, since Vibora Bay, for endgame has been Gravitar Rampage, and that has to be done by complete randomness instead of an actual group of friends who want to enjoy it together.

Again Cryptic, we want to promote your game, we want to get people excited, we want to help you make this the best damn super hero game on the market, but we need something. It's been two and a half years since you gave us anything to entice new players for the long haul. We need to show them that you mean business, and are truly ready to back up those words you keep printing. But you have too show us to.

The Alerts are not new content that the game desperately needs, like the comic series weren't either. Those are filler for real content and we need that now, more than ever.

6. Bring the lore to us.

This one I think needs to be emphasized as well. Stop teasing us with groups and not delivering any lore about them and expecting us to go buy the damn books. We need some lore in this game. No offense to Steve Long and Hero Games, but not everyone playing Champions is a PnP players, just like not every PnP players is an MMO player. The lore needs to be in game, not alluded to and basically tell us to go buy the books that tend to be wildly different from the game lore anyways.

Some of us, like me, actually love the lore of these games and get invested in them. I loved City of Villains so long and was constantly pissed how little you guys did with it because I loved the lore and was invested with it. Just like we need real content investments now, we need the lore investment to.

I know my words are going to ruffle some feathers but that's the reality. This constant downshifting of content is getting infuriating on many levels and I am kind of tired of hearing about new zones, level cap raises and such and they are constantly being delayed or pushed back for no reason. The old adage is you gotta spend money to make money, and we can't show people what you've done when there is so little to show.

I am just going to say it straight, I've seen this company do great things, even when everything was stacked against you and certain companies were trying to force you into a fetal position and give up. Don't start doing that now. Start getting back to being the company that made content in spite of detractors and how much a parent company tried to cut you off at the knee. Start bringing things in that we can show off to other people and we can start getting people interested again.

beldin

ashensnow wrote: »

I agree, though, as much as I love the concept of Adventure Packs and Comic Series, I have been very disappointed in what we have received (for the most part). Given more practice I am sure that the dev team could produce some pretty good AP style content.

The whole implementation of the APs and CSs were a failure for me. They should have
made them more like Mini-Zones with a Questhub where you get a bunch of Missions
for each step so that it works as alternate level path, and that you can do just some
Missions to get a little exp and not that you have to run the whole thing for hours to get
a little Exp finally.

I remember when Resistance came out .. i tried it with a level 18 character .. was somehow
lost in the Jail and after beeing kicked there for 100 times i left frustrated. Now i had spent
there over 2 hours and in the end i had made 15-20% exp .. with a level 18. i could never
bring myself to even try it again after that.

But it seems Cryptic don't like good exp for questing anymore, like we can in Canada or MI
where we pickup 10 missions and do them all in a chain. Just remember .. it started all
with Vibora Bay where we just got looooog single Missions. Then they expanded that modell
to Westside with the "awsome" revamps. Anyone remember the old "Brains behind the Breakout" ?

And lately they did the same in Canada with "Zubzero Servant". Nice quick quests just
a turned into overlong Dungeons. And of course Canada was set to level 15 so that we
all have to do the Westside Stuff .. or go leeching with 6 in Alerts :rolleyes:

I think we will never get a new Zone like Canada or MI. We get now Vehicle Zones,
next we get maybe Wallclimber Zones, and then .. whatever stupid idea they have else
as long as it is just something that they can push a half year and forget after that time
to make the new "awsome exciting" gimmick stuff.

theapygoos

championshewolf wrote: »

I am going to put my voice in this now, and I know what I will say will probably tick a few people off, but I think these points I am about to make need to be said;

1. Champions Online needs to expand, not be given small updates that only interest people for a few short minutes.

Right off the bat I am going to hit this, plain and simple. It has been two and a half years since Vibora Bay launched, the last real expansion to Champions Online. This game is starved for content, for zones, and for new challenges for the people that have been loyal to this game. We need new lairs, we need new zones, we need new missions and content, not little appetizers to appease a select group of people when your loyal players are being left in the cold wondering if they even made the right choice these days.

We want to help this game grow, we want to show off to other people what has been done, we want to brag about it, we want to get people interested, but you haven't given us anything to do to help you, Cryptic, with that aspect. You offer the best possibilities of all the F2P MMOs on the market, but we have nothing to convince people with to get them even remotely interested, other than content, for all intents and purposes, is 2 and a half years old now.

2. Everyone does not need to be given the gold star for content.

Stop dumbing down your own game to appease the weakest link. Not everyone needs to be given the gold star for all possible avenues of content. This is another thing hurting the game play as it stands, the dedicated players that want to be challenged are not being challenged because you keep turning that dial down to 0 for all the wrong reasons. The market is a shambles for this very reason, the fact everything is so easy to get and so little effort is needed, and replayability of content is practically negligible because once you've done it there's no reason to do it again.

Make content challenging and rewarding again, stop giving out the best rewards for mediocre performances. If people really want to earn something then they need to earn it, not have it handed out on a silver platter.

The game needs challenges of heroic levels, things that make us realize how tough the fight actually was, not something that can be done first try without effort or bother involved. That's not even what makes a hero let alone a super hero. Even super heroes face adversaries that can at any moment defeat them, and many are, before they actually can return and face them again. It's time to stop catering to the notion that being defeated is a bad thing.

3. We need things designed for teams.

This goes in hand with the gold star mentality mentioned previously. Not everything needs to be soloable, contradictory to many complaints. In fact a lot more should require teams. The fact that most of the hardest content can be easily solo'd by anyone with the patience or time is appalling. Your world destroying threats only get considered jokes when one person defeats it with little effort.

4. Stop saying you will do it and do it already.

I'm sorry, but we've been hearing you will add more zones and raise the level cap now for 3 years now since launch, and I've been hearing it longer than that even. Yea, things were rough at the beginning but what is being done now isn't going to help out, if you keep cutting the budget and doing as little as possible. If you want to wow the socks off the competition you are going to have to show it, and put in the stuff now, not talk about how you plan to do it. This attitude that you can sit and wait might have worked with City of Heroes, because it was the only super game around, but that is not the case anymore. Again, I want to show this off, I want to invite people to Champions, I want them to see what I actually see, but you are not giving me anything to actually work with.

5. Do not neglect your endgame players.

Whether some people can admit it or not, the endgame players do tend to write the whole picture for a game. They are also the first to leave if they see nothing to stick around for, and as SWTOR, ***, and TSW are proving can be damning for subscription numbers. Again, the tactic of waiting it out worked in City of Heroes because it was the only thing around, but it will not work here, and even in City of Heroes it kept costing you waiting around like that. We need new zones, we need new content for endgame. This disguised attempt of introducing leveling content and saying it's for everyone is a slap in the face to your endgame players. The APs were a failure to us because they were soloable, same with the comic series, and the Alerts aren't for us because we lose a huge chunk of our abilities in the process. The only thing you've actually done, since Vibora Bay, for endgame has been Gravitar Rampage, and that has to be done by complete randomness instead of an actual group of friends who want to enjoy it together.

Again Cryptic, we want to promote your game, we want to get people excited, we want to help you make this the best damn super hero game on the market, but we need something. It's been two and a half years since you gave us anything to entice new players for the long haul. We need to show them that you mean business, and are truly ready to back up those words you keep printing. But you have too show us to.

The Alerts are not new content that the game desperately needs, like the comic series weren't either. Those are filler for real content and we need that now, more than ever.

6. Bring the lore to us.

This one I think needs to be emphasized as well. Stop teasing us with groups and not delivering any lore about them and expecting us to go buy the damn books. We need some lore in this game. No offense to Steve Long and Hero Games, but not everyone playing Champions is a PnP players, just like not every PnP players is an MMO player. The lore needs to be in game, not alluded to and basically tell us to go buy the books that tend to be wildly different from the game lore anyways.

Some of us, like me, actually love the lore of these games and get invested in them. I loved City of Villains so long and was constantly pissed how little you guys did with it because I loved the lore and was invested with it. Just like we need real content investments now, we need the lore investment to.

I know my words are going to ruffle some feathers but that's the reality. This constant downshifting of content is getting infuriating on many levels and I am kind of tired of hearing about new zones, level cap raises and such and they are constantly being delayed or pushed back for no reason. The old adage is you gotta spend money to make money, and we can't show people what you've done when there is so little to show.

I am just going to say it straight, I've seen this company do great things, even when everything was stacked against you and certain companies were trying to force you into a fetal position and give up. Don't start doing that now. Start getting back to being the company that made content in spite of detractors and how much a parent company tried to cut you off at the knee. Start bringing things in that we can show off to other people and we can start getting people interested again.

im inclined to agree with all of Silverspar's points. i want full mission chains to come to champions, not more alerts that can be beaten in a span of 10 minuets or less. the alert spam is getting obnoxious. yes, the system is great, but what doe ti do for my lv 40's that i feel like playing more often than not?

the lack of content has inadvertently driven me away from the game right now. yes im an avid heavy RPer, but i sitll love my mission chains and testing my characters build on elite missions. i cant do taht if theres no new missions or anything. i know making missions and whatnot take time. but that time is quickly ticking away i at least know that thanks to RP ill always be around champions to some degree or another, but im just one player amongst a great many.

The greater majority of my friends do not come to this game anymore, because "why bother?" "we can just RP on skype." "dont get your hope up, its Cryptic".

"Its Cryptic" should not be an excuse. we all know you can do it, look at the comic series for instance, the adventure packs, Vibora bay, etc. it can be done, but now, its up to you guys [Cryptic] to do it before more and more long time players start to slip away because we have crap for endgame, and a rotting stench that comes from lack of new, solid content

haleakala

beldin wrote: »

But it seems Cryptic don't like good exp for questing anymore, like we can in Canada or MI where we pickup 10 missions and do them all in a chain. Just remember .. it started all with Vibora Bay where we just got looooog single Missions. Then they expanded that model to Westside with the "awsome" revamps. Anyone remember the old "Brains behind the Breakout" ?

Bad example. I wasted more time in the old "Brains Behind the Breakout" waiting around on top of the building under construction for the Viper guy to spawn than it takes me to run to and defeat Zoe Luft now.

beldin

haleakala wrote: »

Bad example. I wasted more time in the old "Brains Behind the Breakout" waiting around on top of the building under construction for the Viper guy to spawn than it takes me to run to and defeat Zoe Luft now.

Hm .. he always was there for me, and if not .. just switch zone. Was normally always
a thing of 2 minutes.

neuraldamage

championshewolf wrote: »

I am going to put my voice in this now, and I know what I will say will probably tick a few people off, but I think these points I am about to make need to be said;

1. Champions Online needs to expand, not be given small updates that only interest people for a few short minutes.

2. Everyone does not need to be given the gold star for content.

3. We need things designed for teams.

4. Stop saying you will do it and do it already.

5. Do not neglect your endgame players.

6. Bring the lore to us.

GIVE US THE FOUNDRY NOW!

We can do all these things and generate a ton of content much faster than you can. That frees up your resources to work on the big picture and keep The Foundry updated.

championshewolf

neuraldamage wrote: »

GIVE US THE FOUNDRY NOW!

We can do all these things and generate a ton of content much faster than you can. That frees up your resources to work on the big picture and keep The Foundry updated.

Adding the Foundry won't curtail the overlying issue, as CoH proved.

oyo32

Speaking of the Foundry, I like how that whole thing went from "We're working on it" to "What Foundry? Hey check out these Alerts!"

STO has it, Neverwinter is going to get it, but sadly that whole plan was quietly dropped from CO.

Champions Online,
forever backburner.

somebob

CO will get the Foundry once NW comes out. NW is getting the 'final' version of it (STO has and still has the beta), and it'll be back-ported to CO once NW launches. Been mentioned before by the devs somewhere.

agentnx5

*does a double take* Is this really the same Silverspar that I would argue vehemently with over some bad gameplay suggestions with glaring logic fallacies that she had written? That I would then call her out on (perhaps too rudely of me) and the she'd flame me back (also rudely) and we'd fight about stuff and couldn't get along? I seem to recall we got into a disagreement about point #2 in you exposition, because you used to say it reward should be the same across the board whereas I said (still do) "epic challenges, epic reward" (meaning you need to earn the reward, and the harder the challenge, the better the reward). It seems now were in complete agreement though, which fills me of positive feelings of negotiated agreeance.

Wow, looks like we just needed to find common ground then. First I loved what you've said with regards to tanking, and you've been giving excellent advice in the combat & powers subforum. And now, with what you've said here... I can't even seem to find a disagreement/con in anything you've written to critique.

It seems everything you were saying in this post I can agree with, much of it in fact I STRONGLY agree with you! Perhaps is because this is more of a core message and it's the implementation specifics we argue on?

championshewolf wrote: »

1. Champions Online needs to expand, not be given small updates that only interest people for a few short minutes.

2. Everyone does not need to be given the gold star for content.

3. We need things designed for teams.

4. Stop saying you will do it and do it already.

5. Do not neglect your endgame players.

6. Bring the lore to us.

QFT. I strongly agree! Very, VERY well said!

Speaking of earning goldstars? Hmm, you certainly earned on with this post! I would hope other, and particularly the developers, read that post of yours for comprehension (not skimming it), because it's not what people want to hear, but it's what they NEED to hear.

Brava! Brava! *applause for your exposition*

neuraldamage

somebob wrote: »

CO will get the Foundry once NW comes out. NW is getting the 'final' version of it (STO has and still has the beta), and it'll be back-ported to CO once NW launches. Been mentioned before by the devs somewhere.

Ah that's good to read. I missed the dev comment somehow but was secretly hoping that's the case.

I'm not sure what "overlying issue" she's on about (I bailed CoH long ago). But if it is the corporate culture, wishing for that to change is pretty much just wishful thinking.

Ain't. Gonna. Happen.

But I do believe The Foundry will meet most of the talking points in her dissertation if The Foundry is developed enough to handle it. Especially if Cryptic opens up the rest of the MC map and gives us those areas to play with.

Time will tell.

agentnx5

championshewolf wrote: »

Adding the Foundry won't curtail the overlying issue, as CoH proved.

Actually... I agree with Neuraldamage on this point. Many game companies have had immense success because of open sourcing the map editor software for their games.

The first two to really do it in earnest was iD Software (with the original Doom game) and Parallax Software (made Descent). Then Red Storm entertainment did it (with the original Ghost Recon) and Quake. Quake then was modded into a single-player game called Half-Life by a tiny Valve Studios, yet when Gabe realize this wasn't going to be competitive enough he went FULLY open source. Lots of things grew from that, two of the game Valve paid the mod teams for their rights to the software and career jobs at Valve (TFC and Counter-Strike mod team). And there were many MANY others too, the ones I participated in mod dev work on were: Sven Co-op, Heart of Evil, Science & Industry, Oz Deathmatch, and Natural-Selection. All this time Valve collected royalties and became the wealthy big player they are today. Additionally I recall tons of maps being developed for W@rcr@ft III using their excellent prefab-style map editor, the popular ones I made for that was a push-of-war smash map and a LotR mini-campaign map.




Let me also add that for this game, I am both a player with a lot of alts (many of them at level 40) and a player that mostly plays one character (my main). I also do engage in all three "playstyles": PvE (most), PvP, and RP (least).

I also firmly believe the game is founded on PvE. I agree that RP and PvP are extensions growing from that which give the community longevity and seemingly endless possibilities (they have a major role of course, but are NOT what is at the core).

Right now, there are easily noticable cracks in the foundation, and the owners of the building are not responding to the alarm.

championshewolf

I think the problem with using that view is that the situations you are instancing allowed complete and total freedom with the software in question with no stop gaps or limitations past what the people could program. The case would just not be the same as undoubtedly Cryptic will have limitations in place, like for instance,w e probably won't be able to give or design gear for people, to uber them up with no effort, like many did with NWN, for instance.

And while I've played a few of the Foundry missions over in STO, I can't say I was exactly impressed by what the community voted as the best of the lot, since many of them either had way too much exposition dump, or way too much action. There was no balance in either format and it really got bad when both occurred.

I don't know what type of stop gaps that cryptic would place in for Champions, but I do know that in CoH, the UGC was abused as a leveling tool of the highest caliber.

neuraldamage

championshewolf wrote: »

And while I've played a few of the Foundry missions over in STO, I can't say I was exactly impressed by what the community voted as the best of the lot, since many of them either had way too much exposition dump, or way too much action. There was no balance in either format and it really got bad when both occurred.

So you're saying that nothing at all is better than either? C'mon... Cryptic has neither the budget/manpower or desire to deliver as much content as we would like to see added. The only way we'll get that is to generate it ourselves. Sure there will be some rubbish, but also the occasional gems.

championshewolf wrote: »

I don't know what type of stop gaps that cryptic would place in for Champions, but I do know that in CoH, the UGC was abused as a leveling tool of the highest caliber.

Fortunately Cryptic has already given us that with the Alerts. Actually, what scares me is the limitations that will be imposed. Even if it is an awesome mission or mission thread, will people play it solely for the experience or will it be discarded because there is no awesome bling upon completion?

Depends on how The Foundry is implemented I guess. But I have to believe that something is better than nothing.

secksegai

< Still in a bit of shock that Silverspar is calling Cryptic/PWE out.

championshewolf

neuraldamage wrote: »

So you're saying that nothing at all is better than either? C'mon... Cryptic has neither the budget/manpower or desire to deliver as much content as we would like to see added. The only way we'll get that is to generate it ourselves. Sure there will be some rubbish, but also the occasional gems.

When a mission is designed as nothing but a farm, it is still nothing at all. If items and or cash and Xp can be gained in large quantities from The Foundry, people will do what they can to create the easier mobs that offer the best chance to loot. This happened in CoH when people would set up boss class mobs with the lowest possible hit points, no defenses and few, if any attacks.

haleakala

secksegai wrote: »

< Still in a bit of shock that Silverspar is calling Cryptic/PWE out.

On this issue, Spar has been vocal for some time.

somebob

championshewolf wrote: »

I don't know what type of stop gaps that cryptic would place in for Champions, but I do know that in CoH, the UGC was abused as a leveling tool of the highest caliber.

From my understanding, STO's Foundry missions give pretty much bunk as a reward (short of some kind of daily mission to just 'do 3 Foundry missions', like we have with Alerts), and aren't used as experience or money making methods at all. They're run entirely for fun.

That said, I'd still love to have it just to see what the playerbase can do.

And a huge +1 to what championshewolf said earlier. Those would be all huge for CO.

lotar295

somebob wrote: »

From my understanding, STO's Foundry missions give pretty much bunk as a reward (short of some kind of daily mission to just 'do 3 Foundry missions', like we have with Alerts), and aren't used as experience or money making methods at all. They're run entirely for fun.

That said, I'd still love to have it just to see what the playerbase can do.

And a huge +1 to what championshewolf said earlier. Those would be all huge for CO.

I'd love for CO to get a version of STO's foundry ported here,I'd love to do origin stories about my toons,and feature my nemesis's in them.

Nemesis system+Foundry=Ultimate in customization

neuraldamage

championshewolf wrote: »

When a mission is designed as nothing but a farm, it is still nothing at all. If items and or cash and Xp can be gained in large quantities from The Foundry, people will do what they can to create the easier mobs that offer the best chance to loot. This happened in CoH when people would set up boss class mobs with the lowest possible hit points, no defenses and few, if any attacks.

Ah, no. The Foundry gives no items, no cash, no XP. At least not the STO version, not sure about the NW version since I don't have my beta invite yet.

You apparenly passed over my 2nd comment regarding the "no awesome bling".

neuraldamage wrote: »

Actually, what scares me is the limitations that will be imposed. Even if it is an awesome mission or mission thread, will people play it solely for the experience or will it be discarded because there is no awesome bling upon completion?

championshewolf

neuraldamage wrote: »

Ah, no. The Foundry gives no loot, no cash, no XP. At least not the STO version, not sure about the NW version since I don't have my beta invite yet.

You apparenly passed over my 2nd comment regarding the "no awesome bling".

I can't say my experience with Foundry missions mirrored your own in STO because I was receiving credits and officer experience and did get item drops in the Foundry missions I did' Maybe that's changed and was cut out recently, but there was certainly gain there.

And as for your second point, the reality is in a game like this a lot of people will want to be rewarded for their effort. And sadly, a lot of people will want it to be an easy effort with the best reward. Again I can point to CoH UGC, since they nerfed the rewards in it, most people say that the Architect is hardly even used anymore.

neuraldamage

championshewolf wrote: »

I can't say my experience with Foundry missions mirrored your own in STO because I was receiving credits and officer experience and did get item drops in the Foundry missions I did' Maybe that's changed and was cut out recently, but there was certainly gain there.

Uh-huh, r-r-right.

Ok, this is pointless. I'm out.

Feel free to continue wishing for things you'll never get however. :rolleyes:

kaiserin

It's becoming a disturbing trend in mainstreamed games to dumb down the content. Games are not glorified social networks, they are meant to provide entertainment and challenge. Key word here being challenge.

I tire of Champions Online gradeschool challenge level of content and want very much to see something that comes in difficult and stays difficult. There are endgame players who want something to do, and we haven't seen a damned thing since Vibora Bay.

chalupaoffury

This is especially glaring since the new focus of the game is on farming. Q farming, rec farming, mod farming, etc... All way easier to do at endgame, if there were any. I'm actually finding it annoyingly easier to farm at level 20ish than at 40, for alerts. That's sad, really.

Also, something needs to be done about the fact that alerts nerf you down 10 levels below cap. Would it have been *that hard* to just boost people up to 40, instead?

mijjestic

Yeah I recall them stating the Foundry wasn't in the books many many months back, maybe a year. Whatever it's state of priority right now, its so far off we might as well forget it for another year.

helbjorn

I've seen enough incredible costumes, read enough engaging character bios, and met enough veterans of the Champions RPG to know already that some amazing content would come out of a Foundry system.

A lot would depend on the liberties given to players to utilize the game engine to its fullest potential, however.

Absolutely you'd get a lot of garbage and attempts to game the system, but the pros would far outweigh the cons, I'm certain.

championshewolf

helbjorn wrote: »

I've seen enough incredible costumes, read enough engaging character bios, and met enough veterans of the Champions RPG to know already that some amazing content would come out of a Foundry system.

A lot would depend on the liberties given to players to utilize the game engine to its fullest potential, however.

Absolutely you'd get a lot of garbage and attempts to game the system, but the pros would far outweigh the cons, I'm certain.

The Foundry would be limited in ways, and pros and cons could be measured till time immemorial, but that still won't solve the problem; challenging endgame content.

c3rvand0

ashensnow wrote: »

I am putting this here rather than in the suggestion forum because the matter seems to be an issue of how Cryptic views its customers rather than just an opportunity for improvement.

Simply put, CO needs to show more love for level 40 characters and those who prefer to play them.

Currently the top dog of game content, in terms of rewards, "newness," etc are Alerts. The problem is that the Alerts are designed to exclude level 40 characters from a couple of important aspects of an online game.

1) Earned performance. Alerts deprive level 40 characters of the full yield of their characters' build. People spend days, weeks, months, or (for some years) getting a character to level 40, and then have their perfomance cut in half. The sidekick down scaling is exceptionally punitive.

2) Rewards. Smash alerts provide no reward at all for a level 40 character. Burst alerts provide R3 mods, appropriate for lower level characters, at level 40. Grab alerts, at least, provide some reward for level 40's.

Tying the daily questionite farm to Alerts that are purposefully designed to reward lower level characters to a much greater degree than level 40's, while also gutting the level 40's performance by as much as 50%, is needlessly punitive.

Treating those who are not ardent altists as if they are second class citizens is unnecessary. Those inclined to reach 40 and immediately start leveling a new alt will do so. Providing equal levels of reward for those who prefer to play their level 40 characters would take nothing away from that.

Cryptic, if you are incapable of implementing alerts in a fashion that would allow 40's to retain their performance, then at least allow them to earn rewards appropriate for their level.

God this ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The ONLY reason I do alerts is for the costume drops. What the hell does a lvl 40 need with XPs, crappy mods and poor loot. The former is useless and the latter two can be farmed far more efficiently elsewhere. I even hate doing alerts with lower level toons, as many PUGS are excruiating annoying as leveling is so quick, you meet players who have no idea how to play their toon or what roles are. I actually saw a healer running into packs of mobs to attack them and quickly getting his **** handed to him only for the mobs charging the rest of us. It reminded me of the EQ trains :cool:

I would like tokens to replace Exp in alerts, for example Unity ones. All item drops should scale to the players actual level, no more useless lvl 30 items for the lvl 40s. This should be an easy change, but it is essential as I have no intention to do an alert once I have all the unlocks from the boss. As the endgame in this game is severely lacking, please give us more reasons to continue alerts.