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Forums > Home› Power Discussion

Archery getting a bad rap ?

smuggl3rsmuggl3r Posts: 56 Arc User
edited August 2012 in Power Discussion
Been seeing hate for archery here and in game. Few positives, mostly negative comments. Even been told might as well delete my Marksman cuz he cant ever be worth having in a group.

Thing of it is Im not seein the problem. Here are some screenshots. Level 38. Mostly r4-r5 gear (nothin over r5). These pics are at 3 stacks from quarry and 8 stacks of concentration. Oh, and the dodge and avoidance include evasive maneuvers at rank 2. Iv been thinking bout dropping the sleight of mind advantage and taking r3 instead. Like the aggro dump in alerts...hate resetting mobs in open world.


http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/7306/pathfinderss.jpg


http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/4224/pathfinderss2.jpg

Now keep in mind that these numbers for snap shot arent crits. I see hits over 2800 on crits vs low health, and over 2200 without that low health bonus.


http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/4689/pathfinderss3.jpg

On a full charge Im hitting over 2500 crits on the main target and 3500 aoe PLUS an aoe stun with sonic arrow. Main target is being hit for over 6k ! and I guess the disorient is ok too.


http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/5017/pathfinderss4.jpg

Keep talking bout crits and all, but they come so often have to include them. Storm of Arrows just melts groups of mobs. NOt uncommon to see all three procs critting...something like 3000+ damage in a second. Hits a lot of targets, and roots them too.


http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/1940/pathfinderss5.jpg

Left Torrent of Arrows at R1. Wanted it for the knock back mainly. Figured a quick knock would give time for a full charge of Sonic Arrow to stun a group..and once theyre stunned its pretty easy to keep stunning em until theyre dead.





Dont know if Ive got a point or anything. Just dont get how these kinda numbers are terrible or bad or anything. Nothing survives long except when my damage is cut in half in alerts...and even there I gotta use evasive maneuvers to dump aggro after taking it from tanks and such.

So what makes archery bad ? Seen as much as 5000 dps with snap shot--not sustained mind you--while running at full speed. Havent seen anything in game where more than that was needed.


Sorry for the rambling, ran into a some douchebags in game tonight. got sick of being ragged on, figured Id look at the numbers and ask around.

Final question...what is considered good damage if what Im seeing is bad ?
Post edited by smuggl3r on

Comments

  • malzuriousmalzurious Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    In my opinion, Archery isn't bad at all. In the past it may have been a little lackluster, but that has changed a lot. The Marksman AT has less versatility than a Freeform Archery character, but that's to be expected. The damage is great, particularly the Straight Shot advantage and Storm of Arrows. Archery has great abilities that excel at controlling the range, such as: Storm of Arrows with Achilles' Heel, Torrent of Arrows with Relentless Recurve, Evasive Maneuvers, and Sonic Arrow. It excels in AoE combat, obviously, considering most of the abilities are AoE-specific.

    As for the damage... Like I said before, it isn't bad at all, so ignore the naysayers. Archery is, and always will be, one of my favourite powersets. It's nice being able to keep your distance from the enemy in PvE and PvP. The only thing I could see that would annoy other players is the knock-back from Torrent of Arrows, which isn't really that big of a deal, to be honest. Most people assume Archery is weak because a lot of people don't play the powerset, which is a shame, it's a great set. It's not at all weak, mate. Archery is, in my opinion, a hybrid of damage and survivability. If you enjoy the AT, continue playing it and ignore those who say anything ill towards you.
  • smoochansmoochan Posts: 2,564 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Apparently Archery was completely broken sometime after launch... but in a way that made it OP as ****. It was then nerfed. I'm guessing that people who had used it in it's "OP as ****" form are the ones who were of the opinion that, post-nerf it was bad.

    When not being compared to "OP as ****", archery is in fact a very good set with some unique attributes that make it a lot of fun to play.
    Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
  • secksegaisecksegai Posts: 1,354 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    smuggl3r wrote: »
    Been seeing hate for archery here and in game. Few positives, mostly negative comments. Even been told might as well delete my Marksman cuz he cant ever be worth having in a group.

    So what makes archery bad ? Seen as much as 5000 dps with snap shot--not sustained mind you--while running at full speed. Havent seen anything in game where more than that was needed.


    Sorry for the rambling, ran into a some douchebags in game tonight. got sick of being ragged on, figured Id look at the numbers and ask around.

    A properly built Marksman does solid damage - the set itself needs help, but so do many.

    My soldier could top the Takofanes open mission without a team or extra buffing. My marksman wouldn't be able to keep up with that. But if Archery had a decent single target maintain (ie snapshot that doesn't require constant tapping) then they'd be on a more even playing field.

    Archery has some holes, like focused shot being an even weaker sniper shot. But marksmen are fine as long as they aren't dying constantly and taking on more threat than they can handle.
  • chalupaoffurychalupaoffury Posts: 2,553 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Yeah, agreed secks, but with a caveat. The marksman is way more survivable, on average. IMO? that's a pretty fair trade.
    In game, I am @EvilTaco. Happily killing purple gang members since May 2008.
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  • vorshothvorshoth Posts: 596 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Personally I just find it hard to think of a good excuse to use it. I hardly ever use fighting claws or archery, they just don't work in my brain as an immediate good thing.
    Quarry was a good passive though, haven't used it in a while though.
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  • oniganononiganon Posts: 155 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    smoochan wrote: »
    Apparently Archery was completely broken sometime after launch... but in a way that made it OP as ****. It was then nerfed. I'm guessing that people who had used it in it's "OP as ****" form are the ones who were of the opinion that, post-nerf it was bad.

    Mm, the only thing I remember ever being OP in Archery is Tazer Arrow, which used to cause an unbreakable Hold on tap, and WTK which used to freely stack and do full damage in the aoe.


    Archery's problem is just a lack of damage. Easily fixed - just increase damage on Storm of Arrows, Torrent of Arrows, Explosive Arrow, Sonic Arrow, Gas Arrow and Focused Shot somewhere in the realm of 50-100%
    | The Phoenix - A Fiery Jack of All Trades | The Nightmare - Dark Summoner | The Ranger - Archery/DB DPS |
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  • lucyinspacewithdiamondslucyinspacewithdiamonds Posts: 1,746 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Increase damage??

    You're trying to get me killed. x_x :)
  • beldinbeldin Posts: 1,708 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    My personal problems with Archery :
    - too many charges and or tap-spam powers
    - the only maintain has a long cooldown
    - you need to take much more combat powers than on any other set.

    So what i would like to see is not more damage but simply something like taking away
    the timer on Storm of Arrows, and make Snap-Shot a maintain .. or whatever :wink:
    R607qMf.jpg
  • hubrixhubrix Posts: 264 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Speaking of damage, I remember talk about putting add-ons for CO, did anything ever come out of that? It would be nice to know if me switching over to a more energy efficient super stats really does result in better overall DPS considering it would cost a bunch of resources to regear and retcon. Then again, I guess CO also needs much stronger dummies to test damage on. It takes like 7 seconds for any decent damage dealer to take down a level 40 dummy.
  • selpheaselphea Posts: 1,229 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    As I said in Keiko's thread, Archery is not a high damage set, but damage is not the only factor to consider. IMO, the powerset was built around low risk/low reward.

    The passive is the offensive passive with the most defense in the game. The maintained AoE also has the longest range for a 15ft radius AoE in the game, and it has an advantage that roots its targets, ensuring that the Archer never gets hit in many cases.

    Archery is also in a pretty good place as far as Quarry-friendly skillsets go. Dual guns does worse, Force is lackluster apart from Cascade, Shurikens are a joke. Only the 2-handed munitions skills come out slightly ahead.

    So essentially, offensive archery occupies a middle ground between Defensive Passive user and all out DPS. Trouble is, to many MMO purists, middle ground is a bad place to be, because MMOs tend to favor specialization (although CO's case is slightly different).

    Another problem is that the extra survivability and enemy control of archery is only useful in very rare situations, so the payoff for that is questionable.

    This is also why I don't think Archery should be buffed unless they make the playing field equal, like dropping Torrent and Storm to 50ft and making Quarry more like Kinetic Manipulation. The only Archery skill I think is underperforming is Focused Shot.
  • cascadencecascadence Posts: 505 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    I think my experience with Archery seems to differ a bit from everyone else in here. My archer actually does quite high damage, but it required to change from the standard advantage/specialization allocation that many suggest.

    With my archer, I actually use a rotation for bosses (AKA single target) and goes like this:

    From 100% to 25%:

    1) Straight arrow (R2, split the arrow)
    2) Explosive arrow (R2, where's the kaboom)
    3) Torrent of arrows (R3)

    From 25% to dead:

    1) tap Straight arrow
    2) 4 times Snap shot (R2, finish him)

    Its important to notice that I have Preemptive strike from Avenger spec.... that makes hits post straight arrow hit like a truck.

    Also with the addition of Concentration plus Hunter's instinct with a char that has 40% crit... with an archer that is DEX/EGO/INT... well I don't need to use my energy builder anymore, so I can damage safely from 100 feet away.

    While I admit... its not skyhigh damage as other sets that I consider that are overperforming. Its neither underperforming... and def its above average.
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  • selpheaselphea Posts: 1,229 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    cascadence wrote: »
    Also with the addition of Concentration plus Hunter's instinct with a char that has 40% crit... with an archer that is DEX/EGO/INT... well I don't need to use my energy builder anymore, so I can damage safely from 100 feet away.

    You don't actually need Concentration for energy :p Archery's energy costs are pretty low as it were. I put IDF on my friend's archer instead of Concentration because he wanted more defense, and it doesn't run into energy problems. I still prefer Concentration for the damage though.

    As for Archery being above average... there are 15 ranged powersets in the game. Popular opinion is that Electric, Fire, Infernal and Power Armor are in the top 4. After that I'd say Telekinesis, Darkness, Wind and Ice are capable of some pretty crazy stuff.

    Archery has interesting possibilities too, but not quite on the same level as those 4, so it'd be somewhere below the median level, which is why I consider it as having below average DPS. But in CO, below average DPS is subjective, because just about any character can kill things fast.
    smuggl3r wrote: »
    Final question...what is considered good damage if what Im seeing is bad ?

    Just for comparison, my Ice Form Infernal character, Aeria, can hit 15k crits with Imbue + Defile, and 2.2k crits per 0.5sec on Epidemic (Storm of Arrows hits every 1s, so multiply that 2.2k by 2 to compare side by side). This is on top of Toxic Nanites, Fire Snake and Deadly Poison stacks ticking. She's Ego-based so her crit rate is only 38%, but Follow Through makes up for it.

    My Darkness character, Crystal, hits 8k crits on Ebon Ruin and then 7k crits on Ebon Rift with Voracious Darkness advantage. With only 30 Ego, there's a pretty good chance the target doesn't get knocked back and sits inside the rift to eat a second 7k, so they can take up to 22k in the span of 1 second, after 2.67 seconds of charging up and firing Ebon Ruin). She's Dex-based so her crit rate is 43.4%.

    But these are not without tradeoffs. Aeria needs to get up close to perform well - 25ft for AoE and around 35-45ft for single targets for Fire Snake, and with an offensive passive she pulls aggro very easily with all the damage she does, and she's pretty squishy even with superstat Con. I usually end up running Hybrid mode and tanking with Devour Essence because she dies if I stop draining HP :(

    Crystal also works best at 50ft to fire off Ebon Rift, and because I'm stubbornly staying in the Darkness set for her attacks, she doesn't have a 360 degree attack for melee range either. Ebon Rift at point blank works well enough when it's off cooldown, but then it scatters mobs and they're hard to clean up with the narrow radius of Shadow Embrace. Makes running alerts like GRAB pretty slow.

    So ultimately, especially when running offensive passives, just about every power choice has a tradeoff, which conversely speaking, means just about every power choice has something going for it.
  • mrkuntamrkunta Posts: 34 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    beldin wrote: »
    My personal problems with Archery :
    - too many charges and or tap-spam powers
    - the only maintain has a long cooldown
    - you need to take much more combat powers than on any other set.

    So what i would like to see is not more damage but simply something like taking away
    the timer on Storm of Arrows, and make Snap-Shot a maintain .. or whatever :wink:

    My marksman has storm of arrows on 1.4 secs cool down with about 180 int how is that long
  • selpheaselphea Posts: 1,229 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    I remember when it was 5secs base =p

    Now you can rotate Storm and Torrent easily.
  • beldinbeldin Posts: 1,708 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    selphea wrote: »
    I remember when it was 5secs base =p

    Now you can rotate Storm and Torrent easily.

    Yeah .. that was also what i had in my mind. Still .. i prefer it when i only need one AoE
    and i especially prefer maintains .. so in that case even 1.4s is too long :tongue:

    However .. maybe time to have again a closer look with a 40 character on the PTS, if
    it is possible to play with at least not more than 4 attacks (5 with EB)
    R607qMf.jpg
  • sagewithbubblessagewithbubbles Posts: 484 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    beldin wrote: »
    Yeah .. that was also what i had in my mind. Still .. i prefer it when i only need one AoE
    and i especially prefer maintains .. so in that case even 1.4s is too long :tongue:

    However .. maybe time to have again a closer look with a 40 character on the PTS, if
    it is possible to play with at least not more than 4 attacks (5 with EB)

    Storm of Arrows' cooldown is short enough that you can use it as a main attack, and it works quite nicely with MSA. The cooldown's only a problem if you get interrupted.

    It's just long enough to throw in a Straight Shot to reapply the debuff before starting the maintain again.

    My current Archer uses Storm of Arrows, Torrent of Arrows, Straight Shot and Explosive Arrow (with WtK). If you're using Explosive Arrow as a main attack, R3's better overall damage, but if you're using Storm as your main attack, it's better to tap Straight Shot/Explosive, then go back to Storm.

    Torrent's in there for a heavy single hit and the knockback, though I've debated replacing it with Sonic Arrow.
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  • smuggl3rsmuggl3r Posts: 56 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Question for you all.

    I see a few mention straight shot followed by explosive arrow with wheres the kaboom, but the descriptions say that the debuff from straight shot doesnt affect the damage from wheres the kaboom. Am I missing something ? what other reason is there to use straight shot with wheres the kaboom ?
  • chalupaoffurychalupaoffury Posts: 2,553 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    I go the other way around, since straight shot provides solid dps until where's the kaboom finishes them off. If it's got a delay, imo, you should always trigger that power first. For threat purposes alone, why aggro until you absolutely have to?
    In game, I am @EvilTaco. Happily killing purple gang members since May 2008.
    dbnzfo.png
    RIP Caine
  • gamehobogamehobo Posts: 1,970 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Its the only set where 90% of our powers perform at 100 ft..

    That used to be unique.. but now you can just spam cascades.. oh well
  • oniganononiganon Posts: 155 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    smuggl3r wrote: »
    Question for you all.

    I see a few mention straight shot followed by explosive arrow with wheres the kaboom, but the descriptions say that the debuff from straight shot doesnt affect the damage from wheres the kaboom. Am I missing something ? what other reason is there to use straight shot with wheres the kaboom ?

    Just guessing, but I think it's to trigger a buff in the Avenger spec that boosts base damage after a Blast attack.
    | The Phoenix - A Fiery Jack of All Trades | The Nightmare - Dark Summoner | The Ranger - Archery/DB DPS |
    | The Packleader - Bestial Petmaster |
  • keikomystkeikomyst Posts: 626 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    A lot of people are sadly ignorant about what Archery can do, which is a total shame. Leave them to their Electric, Dual Blades and Infernal. They are the deer. You are the hunter.

    Also, I get 3sec cooldown on my Storm of Arrows, which makes it perfect for meshing with a charged Straight Shot or Torrent. Archery is amazing at doing burst damage, and if you have a strong finger you can fire Snap Shot all day if you want to in order to make up for the lack of maintained DPS that so many others strive for.

    Just remember, you're going to be the one that's 100 ft away not getting hit by anything while you pour on the DPS... until the tank inevitably fails. Then you backflip away into the shadows and survive!
  • smoochansmoochan Posts: 2,564 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    gamehobo wrote: »
    Its the only set where 90% of our powers perform at 100 ft..

    That used to be unique.. but now you can just spam cascades.. oh well

    It's also one of the few sets with a charged powers that don't root you, as well as some maintains that don't root you.
    Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
  • rap9rap9 Posts: 40 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Yo I got a rap for this arch-er-ree,
    Big, bad, n' nasty to you from me,
    Sh*t is lamer than an amputee,
    Buildin' Legolas is a fantasy

    Busted up powahs like I bust a rhyme,
    buildin' synergies ain't worth the time,
    go spam tha uthuh sets and get in line,
    Man you know these 'pinions ain't even mine

    Delete that Marksman cuz he can't hang,
    Wack-@ss charges ain't got no bang,
    Trippin' ovah hits is a common thang,
    Dis middle ground garbage can suck a Wa...

    ...TERMELON BLOWPOP.

    Ain't got no beef if ya hate my rap,
    It's prolly even worse than this archer crap,
    But the title of the thread was my road map,
    so that is that and that's a WRAP.

    Word.
  • rap9rap9 Posts: 40 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Now that's how you kill a thread. :-)
  • bioshrikebioshrike Posts: 5,491 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    One thing I've noticed about Archery is that many powers have short cooldowns. Coupling that w/ INT as one of my super stats and MSA, it generates a near constant stream of energy. Running UNITY's w/ my archer, I can mow through the mobs very quickly - between gas arrow, explosive arrow, sonic arrow, and storm of arrows...
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  • beastmagbeastmag Posts: 38 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    i dont like archery. like others said - my brain just doesnt understand. (same with ice,claws). I can not stand the sonic arrow sound.
    PlUUUUMMEEE PLUUMMMMEEE PLOOOOOOMMMMM PLOOOUUUMMMM

    that got old after after i hit lvl 8.
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