I use Devour Essense on some of my chars and I like it. Yes, its less damage then Dragons Wrath/Claws/etc, but its still solid damage and heals you. I don't use it as my main attack or main heal. I use it as backup heal that does damage. Its a hybrid power and thats how I use it. Poke stuff with Dragons and if in trouble, hit BCR/heal and then top up HP bar with DE while still doing damage.
I like that Epidemic is PBAoE. On PTS I experimented with melee Caster. Not stand at the back squishie nuker, but barbaric, I-can-take-it front liner that got bored of swords. I see Epidemic not as another caster power in a long line of caster powers, but as a chance to do something new. At least new for me. And I don't like chains as it sounds like Might.
It would be nice if Poison would proc on all powers that do Toxic damage.
if you're str/con defiance protector it may look meager, relatively speaking. On the other end, with dex/pre aopm dark transfusion I bet it looks pretty massive.
If somebody wants a melee elemental attack, that's understandable. But there's no need to cannibalize DE for it.
So it actually procs when triggered, not ~0.5s later? That's the main reason I avoid SP, it's got this weird lag built in to it.
That wasn't what I meant, but yes, one of the bugs we fixed (which is listed in the patch notes as something like "more responsive") with it was the actual energy return happening much quicker when it is triggered. You can have a maintain tick drop you low enough to trigger it and have the granted energy in time for the next tick of the maintain now, where this wasn't really possible previously.
However, I was referring to it now proccing at 15% of your Energy, instead of 10%.
Can we being back the old "Aspects".
And maybe in the process change the god awful "Aspec/Bestial" graphic while we're at it?
Do you just mean you want a power named "Aspect of the Celestial?" If so, that will potentially happen some day. If you mean the way the power functioned, then no. They barely worked, and had problems that can't readily be fixed without some major changes to our combat engine. They got pulled because they flat out didn't work right, and never would.
As for the graphic, we've discussed this several times before. When we finish the tech that allows us to choose/swap auras, we'll have a solution for this. In the meantime, we aren't going to create a whole bunch more Zero Point Advantages.
I'd like it if they just did a Supernatural Bestial review after the Infernal. They are already in the set so they might as well fix it.
We have a schedule for our reviews, and Bestial is not next. Being "in the set" isn't really true, we're more like "right next to the set." While Bestial and Infernal used to all be part of the Supernatural set, they were broken out a while ago, and this just moves them even further apart.
If this is the problem, I would rather you increase the energy cost. We have better ways of handling energy issues than we have of buffing DE.
Really though, I've been playing with a DE toon a lot lately, and while DE is decent, I've melted villains far faster with Conflag or Sword Cyclone, which are AoE's to boot.
As stated, we aren't done looking at DE. We brought it to the baseline that our power spreadsheets say it should be at. I don't think it will stay where it is, just as we've changed many powers to be off that baseline, DE is a unique enough power that it likely will have new costing created for it so that it can feel right. Also, while you may melt villains faster with powers that only deal damage, using that as a comparison discounts half of DE - the healing component. We consider it a pretty major part of the power.
As stated, we aren't done looking at DE. We brought it to the baseline that our power spreadsheets say it should be at. I don't think it will stay where it is, just as we've changed many powers to be off that baseline, DE is a unique enough power that it likely will have new costing created for it so that it can feel right. Also, while you may melt villains faster with powers that only deal damage, using that as a comparison discounts half of DE - the healing component. We consider it a pretty major part of the power.
Feel right to whom, exactly? Because it seems to me, from what I can tell, that it already feels right to a good portion of the players who use it, currently.
Feel right to whom, exactly? Because it seems to me, from what I can tell, that it already feels right to a good portion of the players who use it, currently.
When I make statements about feel, I mean to the designers responsible for it. While player feedback definitely carries a lot of weight to us, plenty of players are perfectly happy having unbalanced powers remain that way, so we have to be wary of that at all times when taking that feedback into account.
I think a lot of people are reading too much into a fairly minor change that isn't final. Even if it was final, an 8% damage swing probably wouldn't result in people changing their tactics with the power, and would just result in a slight tweak to the overall strength of that power. But as I said - we aren't done.
Do you just mean you want a power named "Aspect of the Celestial?" If so, that will potentially happen some day. If you mean the way the power functioned, then no. They barely worked, and had problems that can't readily be fixed without some major changes to our combat engine. They got pulled because they flat out didn't work right, and never would.
*Looks with anticipation* I shall wait for that forthcoming day.
Also speaking of powers and I know you're probably really exhausted of this question but I have to ask anyway since I know somebody else will: Earth and Wind on pts? Coming soonish?Super duper soonish?But still soonish would be great...*nods*
*Looks with anticipation* I shall wait for that forthcoming day.
Also speaking of powers and I know you're probably really exhausted of this question but I have to ask anyway since I know somebody else will: Earth and Wind on pts? Coming soonish?Super duper soonish?But still soonish would be great...*nods*
Thank you again, SoulStar
They should both be going up on PTS right after Infernal is pushed to Live. One may come earlier than the other, depending on how happy we are with them, but they will both be up soon.
When I make statements about feel, I mean to the designers responsible for it. While player feedback definitely carries a lot of weight to us, plenty of players are perfectly happy having unbalanced powers remain that way, so we have to be weary of that at all times when taking that feedback into account.
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I think you mean wary, not weary, Mr. Freudian slip.
We have a schedule for our reviews, and Bestial is not next. Being "in the set" isn't really true, we're more like "right next to the set." While Bestial and Infernal used to all be part of the Supernatural set, they were broken out a while ago, and this just moves them even further apart.
I'm not sure what you mean by "and this moves them even further apart" O_O. I read it a couple of times and still nothing .
Well I guess PA needs a review as well but it's just kinda strange to leave Bestial as is. Same as how Telepathy was left out of the TK review when it was on the schedule. Oh well....
Out of curiosity how are you assigning custom advantages? I mean could you apply for example Rip and Tear to any EB or does it have to follow certain rules?
I'm not sure what you mean by "and this moves them even further apart" O_O. I read it a couple of times and still nothing .
Well I guess PA needs a review as well but it's just kinda strange to leave Bestial as is. Same as how Telepathy was left out of the TK review when it was on the schedule. Oh well....
Out of curiosity how are you assigning custom advantages? I mean could you apply for example Rip and Tear to any EB or does it have to follow certain rules?
I mean moving them further apart internally. We have links between powers and power trees (frameworks), and this review further broke some of those links (which is a good thing) as well as breaking some links between the Infernal Chain powers and the Might Chain powers.
In regards to reviews... plenty of our sets need reviews. Many that had reviews early on could use another one. We really want to do a review of Form/Aspect toggles as a whole. We want an overall passive review. We want a Defensive Passive specific review. We want another review of Roles. They all take time, and figuring out that priority is one of the most difficult parts of our jobs.
As for Custom Advantages, some can move between various powers with little problem (like Accelerated Metabolism, or Crippling Challenge), but even these common advantages don't work on all powers, depending on how the power works in the background. For some of the more custom ones, this gets even harder for them to be shared, but some definitely can be. Some are already shared, like both of the Unarmed Energy Builder powers having Drunken Master.
So, short answer... yes, we can theoretically attach any Advantage to any Power. Whether or not that Advantage actually works with that Power is a different story.
if you're str/con defiance protector it may look meager, relatively speaking. On the other end, with dex/pre aopm dark transfusion I bet it looks pretty massive.
I mean moving them further apart internally. We have links between powers and power trees (frameworks), and this review further broke some of those links (which is a good thing) as well as breaking some links between the Infernal Chain powers and the Might Chain powers.
In regards to reviews... plenty of our sets need reviews. Many that had reviews early on could use another one. We really want to do a review of Form/Aspect toggles as a whole. We want an overall passive review. We want a Defensive Passive specific review. We want another review of Roles. They all take time, and figuring out that priority is one of the most difficult parts of our jobs.
As for Custom Advantages, some can move between various powers with little problem (like Accelerated Metabolism, or Crippling Challenge), but even these common advantages don't work on all powers, depending on how the power works in the background. For some of the more custom ones, this gets even harder for them to be shared, but some definitely can be. Some are already shared, like both of the Unarmed Energy Builder powers having Drunken Master.
So, short answer... yes, we can theoretically attach any Advantage to any Power. Whether or not that Advantage actually works with that Power is a different story.
I see. I would not know myself what the most effective order would be. If you intend to review Forms/Aspects won't that interfere with all the changes you are doing to that set. As in, if you were to change ID Mastery would that not nullify all the effort that was placed beforehand ?
I'm only expressing here my opinion but is it not "redundant" to actually do those reviews and not touch upon the core powers/mechanics first? What I'm talking about are Passive Offense/Defense and Roles. Those seem to be the highest in the hierarchy IMO that affect a powerset/build (possibly Form and Enrage and to a lesser extent Aspects). If you continue to review all those sets won't it eventually cause you to do another review of the same set when you will do the passive review (since you will presumably change the way that set plays based on the modifications). It just seems as if doing framework reviews might potentially be a waste of time if/when the Passive reviews will come since they will change the play style of that set.
My reasoning is based upon how I usually construct a toon. For example if you disregard the aspect of theme then It generally goes like this:
1. Choose Passive Offense/Defense -> chose role based on Passive
2. Choose SS (can be 1st then chose Passives based on SS)
3. If 2. are appropriate chose Enrage/Form
4. If 3. was Enrage and there would be a benefit (based on build/availability) choose Aspect
5+ get powers that would complement this build
So as far as I can tell a build is created around the chosen SS or based on the Passive. After those are chosen then you go for damage buffs (Enrage/Forms/Aspects) if your SS sync with your powers (even if you have DEX SS it's almost pointless to take a Form if you are using mostly ranged atks).
I'm only making this point because it seems as if you will eventually have to go back to the sets since if the core of the set will change (Passives ) then the whole set changes.
I see. I would not know myself what the most effective order would be. If you intend to review Forms/Aspects won't that interfere with all the changes you are doing to that set. As in, if you were to change ID Mastery would that not nullify all the effort that was placed beforehand ?
<SNIP>
It could nullify work, if we didn't take any of the existing powers or changes we've made and/or are planning into consideration. We do take all of that into consideration, though. Some of the work may be redundant, in some sense, but in an MMO that's constantly evolving and changing, that is fairly unavoidable. Changes we make to Roles and Passives may make a ton of sense, and we might make changes to powers that work perfectly at that moment in time. But then 3 months later, we release some new Role, or a new Passive, or a new gameplay type, or a new item, and any of those new things could change that balance without intending to do so. It's why we're constantly reviewing existing powers and frameworks, and not solely making new ones. It's all done with the intention of taking as much into consideration as possible, but it's a big game with lots and lots of interactions, so some amount of rework is bound to happen.
Also, I didn't mean for my list of things we want to review to imply some order of importance in that list - it was just an example of the many things we know we want to work on. It's entirely possible that several of those reviews would happen simultaneously, especially the various passive and toggle reviews
I'm only making this point because it seems as if you will eventually have to go back to the sets since if the core of the set will change (Passives ) then the whole set changes.
Most passives are in no way the core of the set. +damage or +energy makes things die faster, but they aren't required for the sets attacks to work. Otherwise you couldn't have an ice toon that used invuln. Defensive passives are closer to the core of a set, in that you need to build a bit around them, but that is just because most of the defensive powers have supplementary powers in their sets to shore up their weaknesses or cover against spikes. Even then most defensive passives get shared between tabs, and the supplemental abilities can be mixed and matched too (one of the things that leads to buff-stacking), so they aren't strictly set specific.
The core of the set is covered by the attacks of the set and the synergies between them. Like how Single Blade revolves around setting up bleeds and rupturing them.
When I make statements about feel, I mean to the designers responsible for it. While player feedback definitely carries a lot of weight to us, plenty of players are perfectly happy having unbalanced powers remain that way, so we have to be wary of that at all times when taking that feedback into account.
I think a lot of people are reading too much into a fairly minor change that isn't final. Even if it was final, an 8% damage swing probably wouldn't result in people changing their tactics with the power, and would just result in a slight tweak to the overall strength of that power. But as I said - we aren't done.
EDIT: Fixed a typo. Thanks skeeterbarnes!
I'm not convinced that you guys know what the word "balance" means. What are you balancing it against?
If your balancing it against eye beams... Then yes, DE is way over performing but If you're balancing it against Ego Weaponry, then its right on par.
Most passives are in no way the core of the set. +damage or +energy makes things die faster, but they aren't required for the sets attacks to work. Otherwise you couldn't have an ice toon that used invuln. Defensive passives are closer to the core of a set, in that you need to build a bit around them, but that is just because most of the defensive powers have supplementary powers in their sets to shore up their weaknesses or cover against spikes. Even then most defensive passives get shared between tabs, and the supplemental abilities can be mixed and matched too (one of the things that leads to buff-stacking), so they aren't strictly set specific.
The core of the set is covered by the attacks of the set and the synergies between them. Like how Single Blade revolves around setting up bleeds and rupturing them.
I was mostly talking about in set synergies. Of course you can pick and choose but if the set itself has no synergies with itself then that is bad.
IMO you do actually build around a passive. For example you are much more likely to take a heal/active defense on a offense toon than on a defense one. The passive you have imposes certain things, you can disregard them of course but being offense without a heal/active defense is auto-gimp.
We really want to do a review of Form/Aspect toggles as a whole. We want an overall passive review. We want a Defensive Passive specific review. We want another review of Roles.
When we finish the tech that allows us to choose/swap auras, we'll have a solution for this. In the meantime, we aren't going to create a whole bunch more Zero Point Advantages.
This is worded as if such a change is currently being worked on, but i dont remember seeing such a change in the until field report. Is this maybe something we can expect to see in 2012?
I was mostly talking about in set synergies. Of course you can pick and choose but if the set itself has no synergies with itself then that is bad.
IMO you do actually build around a passive. For example you are much more likely to take a heal/active defense on a offense toon than on a defense one. The passive you have imposes certain things, you can disregard them of course but being offense without a heal/active defense is auto-gimp.
Nearly every toon I have has an active defense, self heal, and an active offense (or one planned anyway). There are only so many attacks one can pick up before they become redundant. I am just saying that Lighting Reflexes synergizes better with Bountiful Chi Resurgance, than Fiery Form synergizes with Immolation. As tends to be the case when comparing offensive VS defensive supplements.
While player feedback definitely carries a lot of weight to us, plenty of players are perfectly happy having unbalanced powers remain that way, so we have to be wary of that at all times when taking that feedback into account.
I would definitely beg to differ with you on your assessment of this situation, but I think that's probably a different discussion altogether.
I think a lot of people are reading too much into a fairly minor change that isn't final. Even if it was final, an 8% damage swing probably wouldn't result in people changing their tactics with the power, and would just result in a slight tweak to the overall strength of that power. But as I said - we aren't done.
What makes you say we're reading too much into the situation, exactly? A downgrade, whether minor, or major, is still a downgrade and as near as I can tell the entire purpose for this one is just to balance a developer spreadsheet that was found to be off by a marginal number. It certainly doesn't seem like it wouldn't be to balance the power, since you don't generally make a "fairly minor change" for the sake of balance.
The upshot of the situation, for us, the players, is that we end up at a loss, which from our point of view appears arbitrary and fairly unnecessary. Add to that the fact that this comes at a time when there are other, arguably more poignant issues that still have yet to be resolved, and it makes a lot of us wonder why this non-issue is even being addressed at all.
In any case, I comprehend what you've explained to us, but I'm afraid I still fail to see a need to tinker with a power that isn't causing any major issues. And I don't find the fact that you're not done tweaking it to be at all reassuring, if that was your intent.
I mean moving them further apart internally. We have links between powers and power trees (frameworks), and this review further broke some of those links (which is a good thing) as well as breaking some links between the Infernal Chain powers and the Might Chain powers.
So is the overall goal to eventually completely break apart these two sets?
Two things that may or may not have been reported:
Inertial Dampening Field does not reduce the energy return of Supernatural Power while active.
Epidemic does not proc Supernatural Power.
I hope after tweaks that Supernatural Power's trigger is set at 20% because its still having a problem with bottoming out and canceling maintains, even with roughly 160-180 END, a figure I would argue as being about the most you should expect out of someone who doesn't super stat END.
Unless we're supposed to super stat END.. but I thought it wasn't supposed to be that reliant upon it. Right now, the scaling is roughly 34 points of statted END to boost the window for triggering Supernatural Power by 5 points. Ouch.
As for the graphic, we've discussed this several times before. When we finish the tech that allows us to choose/swap auras, we'll have a solution for this. In the meantime, we aren't going to create a whole bunch more Zero Point Advantages.
First off, intersting that you got aura-swapping in the works. Second off, I don't think we even need a ZPA for aspect of the infernal. If you got rid of the weird texturing over the player and kept all other effects for the power I do not believe there would be a general outcry to change it back. I think this is the ONLY case where you could alter a power's aura effects without a general outcry from people who liked the old way.
Of course aura swapping tech would be pretty darn nifty if you pull it off.
As for the graphic, we've discussed this several times before. When we finish the tech that allows us to choose/swap auras, we'll have a solution for this. In the meantime, we aren't going to create a whole bunch more Zero Point Advantages.
Another way could be a costume node for aura that replaces any power related auras. Is that possible?
Unless we're supposed to super stat END.. but I thought it wasn't supposed to be that reliant upon it. Right now, the scaling is roughly 34 points of statted END to boost the window for triggering Supernatural Power by 5 points. Ouch.
Hey .. you can still superstat DEX and take Form of the Tempest for energy
That also gives you a strong DE.
Ohh .. wait .. DE gets nerfed .. hopefully the next step is not that it doesn't scale with focus anymore
If DE really gets nerfed, i hope we get at least a Full Retcon for each character that has currently DE
Two things that may or may not have been reported:
Epidemic does not proc Supernatural Power.
Yesterday i read somewhere this:
"Epidemic is not considered a super natural power in case of proccing energy unlock"
And this was quoted by someone in page 2, but it seems that this info has been removed from the first post
As stated, we aren't done looking at DE. We brought it to the baseline that our power spreadsheets say it should be at. I don't think it will stay where it is, just as we've changed many powers to be off that baseline, DE is a unique enough power that it likely will have new costing created for it so that it can feel right. Also, while you may melt villains faster with powers that only deal damage, using that as a comparison discounts half of DE - the healing component. We consider it a pretty major part of the power.
I understand about the healing portion, but I guess I felt that the damage was inline given it is single-target - I was comparing the damage to AoE attacks which, theoretically, should be less than single-target, just like DE should be less than the average single-target. So I was trying for an apples-to-apples.
Bottom line, I won't start panicking and yelling through the streets about an small percentage decrease, or drop the power as useless, but I really still don't see the reason for the nerf.
They should both be going up on PTS right after Infernal is pushed to Live. One may come earlier than the other, depending on how happy we are with them, but they will both be up soon.
Woooo bring on the rocky goodness!! There will be much throwing of rocks and blowing of the air.
I understand that a lot of people are upset but can you guys lay off Ame a little please? They aren't done tinkering with DE. I'm not sure if you guys find the Devs hard to trust or what but I believe he has our best interest in mind. THAT's why he's giving us his feedback. Any lesser Dev would have shrugged and said too bad, this is what the spreadsheets indicate. It'll stay this way.
Give it until next patch and hopefully you'll be surprised. Granted he said that to a degree, but the idea is bring it to standards and then tally in other factors. He's keeping open communication with the player base and that deserves some major brownie points.
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Bottom line, I won't start panicking and yelling through the streets about an small percentage decrease, or drop the power as useless, but I really still don't see the reason for the nerf.
Ame gave multiple solid reasons. So perhaps what you mean is that your game experience tells you otherwise.
And that's something we players could perhaps add detail to. We can see from the numbers that it's an above-average attack. So why would it seem to trail something like Sword Cyclone/Chainsaw?
Here's one reason, a very specific combo:
Sword Cyclone/Chainsaw + Quarry DEX/INT Brawler + Fair Game + MSA + End on Kill Item. That combo absolutely melts hench+villains while returning significant health and energy for each. DE isn't going to top that in PvE unless there is a single target, preferably one that doesn't have frequent control effects and/or stealth.
On top of that, DE's natural ranged compliment is Defile, which has a nice toxic debuff. But Defile doesn't like Brawler (unlike Shuriken Throw). So highly optimized DE builds are most likely to end up AoPM, Invuln or Defiance. In most of those builds, DE won't feel like unreasonable damage (str/dex aopm fott may be an exception)
DE is fine in PvP, but it doesn't excel like several other melee attacks. The healing isn't going to exceed PvP spikes, and you're vulnerable to control, stealth, kiting and pet targeting clutter. If you've combined it with elusive monk or laser knight, it's a double whammy when you're held/knocked/kited. Probably best with Ego Storm+adv, so you can plug away at your hapless opponent. Of course, not much need for healing then, unless you're combining it with Dark Transfusion.
Actually Focus stacks do buff DE just as Enrage stacks do. However, DE does not get the same melee buff from strength that other melee attacks do. I would be fine if they took out the meager healing component from DE and buffed it's damage back up.
My bad. See kids, this is why you shouldn't take a month or so break from Champs and then post without double checking your work.
I think a better case would have been to talk about my devour-based pink bunny rabbit toon Fluffy. She uses ice form + lariat w/ bleed adv + DE w/ plebo adv as her pretty much everything combo, and she's running in brawler role. It's a solid combo for playing a challenge toon, but with some huge downsides. First, she's seriously squishy because she's ice form playing at melee range. Second, her DPS isn't even in the top half of all my offensive-based toons. Heck, a few of my defensive passive toons have better DPS than she does.
So, when Ame says he's taking a squishy toon that's already pretty mediocre in terms of DPS and making it worse, I haz questions.
Oh, and add me to the pile of people who would be rabidly opposed to removing devour's heal component. Fluffy is mediocre in DPS, but in a one v one matchup, she's nightmarishly hard to beat specifically because you have to out DPS her healing, and you cannot get away from her (lariat drags you back, pleb roots you, ice snares you...good times).
Also, as others have mentioned, building up sufficient poison stacks takes too long and is too cumbersome. Every infernal power should have a chance of applying poison.
I don't know that I'd go so far as have every power give a chance to apply, but we do need more of them. We also need more ways to refresh. I suggested looking at Ego Leech's variety of methods specifically because it's pretty easy to figure out how to apply and maintain Ego Leech stacks with the tools TK has. Heck, just turning Epidemic into the poison version of TK Burst would go a long ways to fixing the application part of poison...50' range, AoE at target, 100% chance of application on tap.
Ame gave multiple solid reasons. So perhaps what you mean is that your game experience tells you otherwise.
And that's something we players could perhaps add detail to.
Yeah. The funny thing is that I probably won't even notice the nerf in actual play, since I'm not a numbers parser.
To give more detail, I'm running an AoED toon (+dmg) in Sentinel (-dmg) with SS Dex/Ego (+dmg) plus FotT (+dmg). And while DE is pretty decent with 8 stacks of Focus, it's not "blow me away bow before me foolish mortals" good.
I understand that a lot of people are upset but can you guys lay off Ame a little please? They aren't done tinkering with DE. I'm not sure if you guys find the Devs hard to trust or what but I believe he has our best interest in mind. THAT's why he's giving us his feedback. Any lesser Dev would have shrugged and said too bad, this is what the spreadsheets indicate. It'll stay this way.
Give it until next patch and hopefully you'll be surprised. Granted he said that to a degree, but the idea is bring it to standards and then tally in other factors. He's keeping open communication with the player base and that deserves some major brownie points.
People are expressing their opinions because they aren't done "tinkering" with DE. Keeping your mouth shut about something is a good way to not have your opinion heard at all. Better to voice opinions while its happening than to wait until it goes through.
One question. Unfortunately a question I pretty much know the answer to...but one question nonetheless.
Why does Venomous Breath not offer chance to proc Poison? it's right in the name - Breath of a Venomous Nature. There are plenty of characters out there, my Yuurei among them, who use Aspect of the Infernal with nothing more in the way of toxic attacks than Devour Essence and Venomous Breath. In the new set-up, neither attack has any chance whatsoever of tripping Poison, and while that makes sense for Devour...how, exactly, does a giant sustained blast of poison not have a chance to Poison its targets? o_O
One question. Unfortunately a question I pretty much know the answer to...but one question nonetheless.
Why does Venomous Breath not offer chance to proc Poison? it's right in the name - Breath of a Venomous Nature. There are plenty of characters out there, my Yuurei among them, who use Aspect of the Infernal with nothing more in the way of toxic attacks than Devour Essence and Venomous Breath. In the new set-up, neither attack has any chance whatsoever of tripping Poison, and while that makes sense for Devour...how, exactly, does a giant sustained blast of poison not have a chance to Poison its targets? o_O
Because they did not trigger it before ? One of the reason my Infernals always went with Form of the Tempest
since that helped with energy and also lifted DE damage to be good, while with Aspect it is really not that great.
While this is true, most of the 'infection' procs (stun) have been turned into 'poison' procs, and venemous breath has an advantage that grants an infection proc.
While this is true, most of the 'infection' procs (stun) have been turned into 'poison' procs, and venemous breath has an advantage that grants an infection proc.
Which is the biggest thing leaving me scratching my head about it not being changed, honestly. Is it because (iirc) it needs an advantage to grant that proc? That seems kind of weird if you ask me.. Maybe they could add a 1pt advantage to it that would allow it to grant Poison stacks (for those that liked the stun from infection on that power and it's bleed interaction)? Something.
For that matter, why hasn't Defile been given some Poison extra Poison interaction besides a flat -Resist to Toxic damage? Is it to make Infernal Blast seem better, or to make Defile less of an auto-choice then it already is for ranged ST toxic damage?
Which is the biggest thing leaving me scratching my head about it not being changed, honestly. Is it because (iirc) it needs an advantage to grant that proc?
It's because the review isn't done. Internally, we have an advantage that adds a poison proc to Venomous Breath. As for Defile - it now provides an additional Poison type with the base power (the toxic debuff is now Debilitating Poison), and the advantage causes an additional Poison type (Noxious Poison). Both of these count as Poison triggers for Aspect of the Infernal, and they are both refreshed by Infernal Blast.
As for Defile - it now provides an additional Poison type with the base power (the toxic debuff is now Debilitating Poison), and the advantage causes an additional Poison type (Noxious Poison). Both of these count as Poison triggers for Aspect of the Infernal, and they are both refreshed by Infernal Blast.
That. Is. Awesome. Thanks for the update!
One query, though: Do the additional types of Poison count towards the 10 Poison stack limit? And do they stack with each other? I'd guess no, but just want to make sure.
It's because the review isn't done. Internally, we have an advantage that adds a poison proc to Venomous Breath. As for Defile - it now provides an additional Poison type with the base power (the toxic debuff is now Debilitating Poison), and the advantage causes an additional Poison type (Noxious Poison). Both of these count as Poison triggers for Aspect of the Infernal, and they are both refreshed by Infernal Blast.
That makes me happier, then. I look forward to the next update!
People are expressing their opinions because they aren't done "tinkering" with DE. Keeping your mouth shut about something is a good way to not have your opinion heard at all. Better to voice opinions while its happening than to wait until it goes through.
I understand that completely. I think you misunderstood my point or maybe I wasn't clear. I was seeing Ame being quoted and given a lot of aggressive attitude. Some people are treating DE like the changes are final. That's why I said they weren't done tinkering and to relax. As the thread was going on, I saw the attitude getting more aggressive but I'm glad to see it has calmed down.
It's because the review isn't done. Internally, we have an advantage that adds a poison proc to Venomous Breath. As for Defile - it now provides an additional Poison type with the base power (the toxic debuff is now Debilitating Poison), and the advantage causes an additional Poison type (Noxious Poison). Both of these count as Poison triggers for Aspect of the Infernal, and they are both refreshed by Infernal Blast.
Three types of poison so far eh? Would Toxic Nanites and Gas Arrow be in line for one of these special types of poison? Maybe one to go with their advantages? Or even just the normal type of poison? How about Pestilence?
One query, though: Do the additional types of Poison count towards the 10 Poison stack limit? And do they stack with each other? I'd guess no, but just want to make sure.
If they work anything like STC: They don't count as against the stack, and you can have them in addition to the stack.
One query, though: Do the additional types of Poison count towards the 10 Poison stack limit? And do they stack with each other? I'd guess no, but just want to make sure.
The default poison (which is getting a name as well, I just don't remember it) stacks to 10, and these 2 poisons are additional.
Three types of poison so far eh? Would Toxic Nanites and Gas Arrow be in line for one of these special types of poison? Maybe one to go with their advantages? Or even just the normal type of poison? How about Pestilence?
Pestilence will not become a Poison, as it would make Poison stacking for Aspect of the Infernal fairly meaningless. It's certainly possible, and probably likely, that other poison-like effects in the game will get made into official Poisons, but probably not during this pass.
It's because the review isn't done. Internally, we have an advantage that adds a poison proc to Venomous Breath.
1 or 2 point adv ? Venomous breath is great because of low power costs, but the damage is also not great
so if you can only bring it to R2 thats would even lower its damage. Personally i would like to see that you
maybe make it also cost some more energy for a little more damage.
Bug: When logging in on PTS, all of the various gingerbread cookies I had expired. I was spammed with the following message: "You used Spiced Gingerbread Cookie."
Please do not add timers to items that we already have. That's just a dick move.
Bug: The Winter action figure parts that now have the yellow ! on them, when placed in inventory and double clicked (as one normally does to accept a mission from a mission item) just disappear.
Bug: When logging in on PTS, all of the various gingerbread cookies I had expired. I was spammed with the following message: "You used Spiced Gingerbread Cookie."
Please do not add timers to items that we already have. [/COLOR]
Yeah, this would be a pretty large mistake...
And while you're at it and we're takling about Winter could we please get the CD timer removed from the Dried Mistletoe Perm Device? It's a useless fluff toy and the CD timer is getting in the way of that.
Also, I gotta ask, when there are so many things that need to be fixed, wouldn't the time that it took to make the mini map square be better used to, oh, em, gee, maybe FIX BUGS?
Also, it's ugly. And it needs a button on the right side of the compass. It looks lopsided. Two on one side and 1 one the other. Also also, too much yellow.
Also also also, who is the one that has the square issue? Cause I'd be willing to bet it's the same person who made the inventory bags square.
Also, I gotta ask, when there are so many things that need to be fixed, wouldn't the time that it took to make the mini map square be better used to, oh, em, gee, maybe FIX BUGS?
I more or less discontinued my UI Bug thread because the contents of it largely went unaddressed. =/ Two examples: the Portrait > Social > Chat Settings link is still broken from late January (I think that was when it broke) and the little arrows that indicate there a submenu here are still missing.
I suppose they'll get to it when they get to it.
I do like the ability to hide the buttons though.. it eliminates quite a bit of visual clutter.
Comments
I like that Epidemic is PBAoE. On PTS I experimented with melee Caster. Not stand at the back squishie nuker, but barbaric, I-can-take-it front liner that got bored of swords. I see Epidemic not as another caster power in a long line of caster powers, but as a chance to do something new. At least new for me. And I don't like chains as it sounds like Might.
It would be nice if Poison would proc on all powers that do Toxic damage.
The healing is just why i prefer DE often over Chainsaw or Dragons powers.
So please please .. let DE how it is, since for me its really simply the only outstanding power from Infernal.
if you're str/con defiance protector it may look meager, relatively speaking. On the other end, with dex/pre aopm dark transfusion I bet it looks pretty massive.
If somebody wants a melee elemental attack, that's understandable. But there's no need to cannibalize DE for it.
That wasn't what I meant, but yes, one of the bugs we fixed (which is listed in the patch notes as something like "more responsive") with it was the actual energy return happening much quicker when it is triggered. You can have a maintain tick drop you low enough to trigger it and have the granted energy in time for the next tick of the maintain now, where this wasn't really possible previously.
However, I was referring to it now proccing at 15% of your Energy, instead of 10%.
Do you just mean you want a power named "Aspect of the Celestial?" If so, that will potentially happen some day. If you mean the way the power functioned, then no. They barely worked, and had problems that can't readily be fixed without some major changes to our combat engine. They got pulled because they flat out didn't work right, and never would.
As for the graphic, we've discussed this several times before. When we finish the tech that allows us to choose/swap auras, we'll have a solution for this. In the meantime, we aren't going to create a whole bunch more Zero Point Advantages.
We have a schedule for our reviews, and Bestial is not next. Being "in the set" isn't really true, we're more like "right next to the set." While Bestial and Infernal used to all be part of the Supernatural set, they were broken out a while ago, and this just moves them even further apart.
As stated, we aren't done looking at DE. We brought it to the baseline that our power spreadsheets say it should be at. I don't think it will stay where it is, just as we've changed many powers to be off that baseline, DE is a unique enough power that it likely will have new costing created for it so that it can feel right. Also, while you may melt villains faster with powers that only deal damage, using that as a comparison discounts half of DE - the healing component. We consider it a pretty major part of the power.
When I make statements about feel, I mean to the designers responsible for it. While player feedback definitely carries a lot of weight to us, plenty of players are perfectly happy having unbalanced powers remain that way, so we have to be wary of that at all times when taking that feedback into account.
I think a lot of people are reading too much into a fairly minor change that isn't final. Even if it was final, an 8% damage swing probably wouldn't result in people changing their tactics with the power, and would just result in a slight tweak to the overall strength of that power. But as I said - we aren't done.
EDIT: Fixed a typo. Thanks skeeterbarnes!
*Looks with anticipation* I shall wait for that forthcoming day.
Also speaking of powers and I know you're probably really exhausted of this question but I have to ask anyway since I know somebody else will: Earth and Wind on pts? Coming soonish?Super duper soonish?But still soonish would be great...*nods*
Thank you again,
SoulStar
They should both be going up on PTS right after Infernal is pushed to Live. One may come earlier than the other, depending on how happy we are with them, but they will both be up soon.
I think you mean wary, not weary, Mr. Freudian slip.
Haha, indeed I do. Or maybe I meant both.
I'm not sure what you mean by "and this moves them even further apart" O_O. I read it a couple of times and still nothing
Well I guess PA needs a review as well but it's just kinda strange to leave Bestial as is. Same as how Telepathy was left out of the TK review when it was on the schedule. Oh well....
Out of curiosity how are you assigning custom advantages? I mean could you apply for example Rip and Tear to any EB or does it have to follow certain rules?
I mean moving them further apart internally. We have links between powers and power trees (frameworks), and this review further broke some of those links (which is a good thing) as well as breaking some links between the Infernal Chain powers and the Might Chain powers.
In regards to reviews... plenty of our sets need reviews. Many that had reviews early on could use another one. We really want to do a review of Form/Aspect toggles as a whole. We want an overall passive review. We want a Defensive Passive specific review. We want another review of Roles. They all take time, and figuring out that priority is one of the most difficult parts of our jobs.
As for Custom Advantages, some can move between various powers with little problem (like Accelerated Metabolism, or Crippling Challenge), but even these common advantages don't work on all powers, depending on how the power works in the background. For some of the more custom ones, this gets even harder for them to be shared, but some definitely can be. Some are already shared, like both of the Unarmed Energy Builder powers having Drunken Master.
So, short answer... yes, we can theoretically attach any Advantage to any Power. Whether or not that Advantage actually works with that Power is a different story.
I see. I would not know myself what the most effective order would be. If you intend to review Forms/Aspects won't that interfere with all the changes you are doing to that set. As in, if you were to change ID Mastery would that not nullify all the effort that was placed beforehand ?
I'm only expressing here my opinion but is it not "redundant" to actually do those reviews and not touch upon the core powers/mechanics first? What I'm talking about are Passive Offense/Defense and Roles. Those seem to be the highest in the hierarchy IMO that affect a powerset/build (possibly Form and Enrage and to a lesser extent Aspects). If you continue to review all those sets won't it eventually cause you to do another review of the same set when you will do the passive review (since you will presumably change the way that set plays based on the modifications). It just seems as if doing framework reviews might potentially be a waste of time if/when the Passive reviews will come since they will change the play style of that set.
My reasoning is based upon how I usually construct a toon. For example if you disregard the aspect of theme then It generally goes like this:
1. Choose Passive Offense/Defense -> chose role based on Passive
2. Choose SS (can be 1st then chose Passives based on SS)
3. If 2. are appropriate chose Enrage/Form
4. If 3. was Enrage and there would be a benefit (based on build/availability) choose Aspect
5+ get powers that would complement this build
So as far as I can tell a build is created around the chosen SS or based on the Passive. After those are chosen then you go for damage buffs (Enrage/Forms/Aspects) if your SS sync with your powers (even if you have DEX SS it's almost pointless to take a Form if you are using mostly ranged atks).
I'm only making this point because it seems as if you will eventually have to go back to the sets since if the core of the set will change (Passives ) then the whole set changes.
It could nullify work, if we didn't take any of the existing powers or changes we've made and/or are planning into consideration. We do take all of that into consideration, though. Some of the work may be redundant, in some sense, but in an MMO that's constantly evolving and changing, that is fairly unavoidable. Changes we make to Roles and Passives may make a ton of sense, and we might make changes to powers that work perfectly at that moment in time. But then 3 months later, we release some new Role, or a new Passive, or a new gameplay type, or a new item, and any of those new things could change that balance without intending to do so. It's why we're constantly reviewing existing powers and frameworks, and not solely making new ones. It's all done with the intention of taking as much into consideration as possible, but it's a big game with lots and lots of interactions, so some amount of rework is bound to happen.
Also, I didn't mean for my list of things we want to review to imply some order of importance in that list - it was just an example of the many things we know we want to work on. It's entirely possible that several of those reviews would happen simultaneously, especially the various passive and toggle reviews
Most passives are in no way the core of the set. +damage or +energy makes things die faster, but they aren't required for the sets attacks to work. Otherwise you couldn't have an ice toon that used invuln. Defensive passives are closer to the core of a set, in that you need to build a bit around them, but that is just because most of the defensive powers have supplementary powers in their sets to shore up their weaknesses or cover against spikes. Even then most defensive passives get shared between tabs, and the supplemental abilities can be mixed and matched too (one of the things that leads to buff-stacking), so they aren't strictly set specific.
The core of the set is covered by the attacks of the set and the synergies between them. Like how Single Blade revolves around setting up bleeds and rupturing them.
I'm not convinced that you guys know what the word "balance" means. What are you balancing it against?
If your balancing it against eye beams... Then yes, DE is way over performing but If you're balancing it against Ego Weaponry, then its right on par.
I was mostly talking about in set synergies. Of course you can pick and choose but if the set itself has no synergies with itself then that is bad.
IMO you do actually build around a passive. For example you are much more likely to take a heal/active defense on a offense toon than on a defense one. The passive you have imposes certain things, you can disregard them of course but being offense without a heal/active defense is auto-gimp.
You both have the same hair cut. Its very reassuring to hear you talk about this. This is worded as if such a change is currently being worked on, but i dont remember seeing such a change in the until field report. Is this maybe something we can expect to see in 2012?
Nearly every toon I have has an active defense, self heal, and an active offense (or one planned anyway). There are only so many attacks one can pick up before they become redundant. I am just saying that Lighting Reflexes synergizes better with Bountiful Chi Resurgance, than Fiery Form synergizes with Immolation. As tends to be the case when comparing offensive VS defensive supplements.
What makes you say we're reading too much into the situation, exactly? A downgrade, whether minor, or major, is still a downgrade and as near as I can tell the entire purpose for this one is just to balance a developer spreadsheet that was found to be off by a marginal number. It certainly doesn't seem like it wouldn't be to balance the power, since you don't generally make a "fairly minor change" for the sake of balance.
The upshot of the situation, for us, the players, is that we end up at a loss, which from our point of view appears arbitrary and fairly unnecessary. Add to that the fact that this comes at a time when there are other, arguably more poignant issues that still have yet to be resolved, and it makes a lot of us wonder why this non-issue is even being addressed at all.
In any case, I comprehend what you've explained to us, but I'm afraid I still fail to see a need to tinker with a power that isn't causing any major issues. And I don't find the fact that you're not done tweaking it to be at all reassuring, if that was your intent.
So is the overall goal to eventually completely break apart these two sets?
- Inertial Dampening Field does not reduce the energy return of Supernatural Power while active.
- Epidemic does not proc Supernatural Power.
I hope after tweaks that Supernatural Power's trigger is set at 20% because its still having a problem with bottoming out and canceling maintains, even with roughly 160-180 END, a figure I would argue as being about the most you should expect out of someone who doesn't super stat END.Unless we're supposed to super stat END.. but I thought it wasn't supposed to be that reliant upon it. Right now, the scaling is roughly 34 points of statted END to boost the window for triggering Supernatural Power by 5 points. Ouch.
First off, intersting that you got aura-swapping in the works. Second off, I don't think we even need a ZPA for aspect of the infernal. If you got rid of the weird texturing over the player and kept all other effects for the power I do not believe there would be a general outcry to change it back. I think this is the ONLY case where you could alter a power's aura effects without a general outcry from people who liked the old way.
Of course aura swapping tech would be pretty darn nifty if you pull it off.
Another way could be a costume node for aura that replaces any power related auras. Is that possible?
Hey .. you can still superstat DEX and take Form of the Tempest for energy
That also gives you a strong DE.
Ohh .. wait .. DE gets nerfed .. hopefully the next step is not that it doesn't scale with focus anymore
If DE really gets nerfed, i hope we get at least a Full Retcon for each character that has currently DE
"Epidemic is not considered a super natural power in case of proccing energy unlock"
And this was quoted by someone in page 2, but it seems that this info has been removed from the first post
I understand about the healing portion, but I guess I felt that the damage was inline given it is single-target - I was comparing the damage to AoE attacks which, theoretically, should be less than single-target, just like DE should be less than the average single-target. So I was trying for an apples-to-apples.
Bottom line, I won't start panicking and yelling through the streets about an small percentage decrease, or drop the power as useless, but I really still don't see the reason for the nerf.
Woooo bring on the rocky goodness!! There will be much throwing of rocks and blowing of the air.
Give it until next patch and hopefully you'll be surprised. Granted he said that to a degree, but the idea is bring it to standards and then tally in other factors. He's keeping open communication with the player base and that deserves some major brownie points.
Ame gave multiple solid reasons. So perhaps what you mean is that your game experience tells you otherwise.
And that's something we players could perhaps add detail to. We can see from the numbers that it's an above-average attack. So why would it seem to trail something like Sword Cyclone/Chainsaw?
Here's one reason, a very specific combo:
Sword Cyclone/Chainsaw + Quarry DEX/INT Brawler + Fair Game + MSA + End on Kill Item. That combo absolutely melts hench+villains while returning significant health and energy for each. DE isn't going to top that in PvE unless there is a single target, preferably one that doesn't have frequent control effects and/or stealth.
On top of that, DE's natural ranged compliment is Defile, which has a nice toxic debuff. But Defile doesn't like Brawler (unlike Shuriken Throw). So highly optimized DE builds are most likely to end up AoPM, Invuln or Defiance. In most of those builds, DE won't feel like unreasonable damage (str/dex aopm fott may be an exception)
DE is fine in PvP, but it doesn't excel like several other melee attacks. The healing isn't going to exceed PvP spikes, and you're vulnerable to control, stealth, kiting and pet targeting clutter. If you've combined it with elusive monk or laser knight, it's a double whammy when you're held/knocked/kited. Probably best with Ego Storm+adv, so you can plug away at your hapless opponent. Of course, not much need for healing then, unless you're combining it with Dark Transfusion.
My bad. See kids, this is why you shouldn't take a month or so break from Champs and then post without double checking your work.
I think a better case would have been to talk about my devour-based pink bunny rabbit toon Fluffy. She uses ice form + lariat w/ bleed adv + DE w/ plebo adv as her pretty much everything combo, and she's running in brawler role. It's a solid combo for playing a challenge toon, but with some huge downsides. First, she's seriously squishy because she's ice form playing at melee range. Second, her DPS isn't even in the top half of all my offensive-based toons. Heck, a few of my defensive passive toons have better DPS than she does.
So, when Ame says he's taking a squishy toon that's already pretty mediocre in terms of DPS and making it worse, I haz questions.
Oh, and add me to the pile of people who would be rabidly opposed to removing devour's heal component. Fluffy is mediocre in DPS, but in a one v one matchup, she's nightmarishly hard to beat specifically because you have to out DPS her healing, and you cannot get away from her (lariat drags you back, pleb roots you, ice snares you...good times).
I don't know that I'd go so far as have every power give a chance to apply, but we do need more of them. We also need more ways to refresh. I suggested looking at Ego Leech's variety of methods specifically because it's pretty easy to figure out how to apply and maintain Ego Leech stacks with the tools TK has. Heck, just turning Epidemic into the poison version of TK Burst would go a long ways to fixing the application part of poison...50' range, AoE at target, 100% chance of application on tap.
Yeah. The funny thing is that I probably won't even notice the nerf in actual play, since I'm not a numbers parser.
To give more detail, I'm running an AoED toon (+dmg) in Sentinel (-dmg) with SS Dex/Ego (+dmg) plus FotT (+dmg). And while DE is pretty decent with 8 stacks of Focus, it's not "blow me away bow before me foolish mortals" good.
People are expressing their opinions because they aren't done "tinkering" with DE. Keeping your mouth shut about something is a good way to not have your opinion heard at all. Better to voice opinions while its happening than to wait until it goes through.
Why does Venomous Breath not offer chance to proc Poison? it's right in the name - Breath of a Venomous Nature. There are plenty of characters out there, my Yuurei among them, who use Aspect of the Infernal with nothing more in the way of toxic attacks than Devour Essence and Venomous Breath. In the new set-up, neither attack has any chance whatsoever of tripping Poison, and while that makes sense for Devour...how, exactly, does a giant sustained blast of poison not have a chance to Poison its targets? o_O
Because they did not trigger it before ? One of the reason my Infernals always went with Form of the Tempest
since that helped with energy and also lifted DE damage to be good, while with Aspect it is really not that great.
Which is the biggest thing leaving me scratching my head about it not being changed, honestly. Is it because (iirc) it needs an advantage to grant that proc? That seems kind of weird if you ask me.. Maybe they could add a 1pt advantage to it that would allow it to grant Poison stacks (for those that liked the stun from infection on that power and it's bleed interaction)? Something.
For that matter, why hasn't Defile been given some Poison extra Poison interaction besides a flat -Resist to Toxic damage? Is it to make Infernal Blast seem better, or to make Defile less of an auto-choice then it already is for ranged ST toxic damage?
It's because the review isn't done. Internally, we have an advantage that adds a poison proc to Venomous Breath. As for Defile - it now provides an additional Poison type with the base power (the toxic debuff is now Debilitating Poison), and the advantage causes an additional Poison type (Noxious Poison). Both of these count as Poison triggers for Aspect of the Infernal, and they are both refreshed by Infernal Blast.
One query, though: Do the additional types of Poison count towards the 10 Poison stack limit? And do they stack with each other? I'd guess no, but just want to make sure.
That makes me happier, then. I look forward to the next update!
I understand that completely. I think you misunderstood my point or maybe I wasn't clear. I was seeing Ame being quoted and given a lot of aggressive attitude. Some people are treating DE like the changes are final. That's why I said they weren't done tinkering and to relax. As the thread was going on, I saw the attitude getting more aggressive but I'm glad to see it has calmed down.
Three types of poison so far eh? Would Toxic Nanites and Gas Arrow be in line for one of these special types of poison? Maybe one to go with their advantages? Or even just the normal type of poison? How about Pestilence?
If they work anything like STC: They don't count as against the stack, and you can have them in addition to the stack.
The default poison (which is getting a name as well, I just don't remember it) stacks to 10, and these 2 poisons are additional.
Pestilence will not become a Poison, as it would make Poison stacking for Aspect of the Infernal fairly meaningless. It's certainly possible, and probably likely, that other poison-like effects in the game will get made into official Poisons, but probably not during this pass.
1 or 2 point adv ? Venomous breath is great because of low power costs, but the damage is also not great
so if you can only bring it to R2 thats would even lower its damage. Personally i would like to see that you
maybe make it also cost some more energy for a little more damage.
Please do not add timers to items that we already have. That's just a dick move.
Bug: The Winter action figure parts that now have the yellow ! on them, when placed in inventory and double clicked (as one normally does to accept a mission from a mission item) just disappear.
Yeah, this would be a pretty large mistake...
And while you're at it and we're takling about Winter could we please get the CD timer removed from the Dried Mistletoe Perm Device? It's a useless fluff toy and the CD timer is getting in the way of that.
Also, it's ugly. And it needs a button on the right side of the compass. It looks lopsided. Two on one side and 1 one the other. Also also, too much yellow.
Also also also, who is the one that has the square issue? Cause I'd be willing to bet it's the same person who made the inventory bags square.
I more or less discontinued my UI Bug thread because the contents of it largely went unaddressed. =/ Two examples: the Portrait > Social > Chat Settings link is still broken from late January (I think that was when it broke) and the little arrows that indicate there a submenu here are still missing.
I suppose they'll get to it when they get to it.
I do like the ability to hide the buttons though.. it eliminates quite a bit of visual clutter.