Comicbook tropes do not necessarily equate to good, usable, or fun gameplay.
Sometimes looking at your source material goes a long way towards solving your design problems. Especially when you are trying to evoke a particular genre. The nice thing here is comics thrive on dramatic comflict which can be nearly the same thing as good gameplay - a boring comicbook fight is a boring gaming encounter.
(one-shotting and held-to-death being perfect examples of common but undesirable game behavior that would make for sucky comic stories)
What you have described is not the paradigm that exists in CO, for better or worse. This is a paradigm that was established early on in CO's life -- it's not something that's going to change without a massive system overhaul that would only see the light of day in an entire game remake. Needless to say that's not in the cards.
Meh. I could mathematically describe 70% of the comic-book ranged/melee paradigm in one CO equation:
Base Dodge% = 5 + (distance in meters/2)
Then even if you have ranged powers, you are rewarded for closing to use them.
Super STR/CON, Defiance, Enrage, Ebon Ruin R3 w/Nyctophobia, some manner of Fear application. Often Void Shift from what I've seen, which strikes me as counterintuitive, but hey. The general idea is that Ebon Ruin R3 w/Nyct is a power that deals extremely high damage, nearly R4-level with Nyctophobia, which also innately debuffs enemy healing. It also adds a DoT component for anyone without absorption, but that's not important. What's important is +55% increased power damage with innate anti-healing ability. And Enrage. Can't forget Enrage.
Anyways.
Guys...seriously? You argument is "Melee passives were screwy, yeah, but they should stay screwy because melee's already too strong"? How does that make the remotest amount of sense? If your problem is with DW or DC spikers, than seek to get Wrath or Claws addressed. If the problem is melee toggle skills adding too much +damage, then get those addressed. If the problem is melee + STR + Enrage + Aggressor, then get that addressed.
My specialized, melee-only passive which has less functionality than a generalist damage passive SHOULD NOT be less powerful than that same generalist passive in melee combat.
That is not the way to balance a game. A limited, narrowly-focused option should be more powerful, within the scope of its limitations, than a more generalized option within that same scope. That's why the limits exist in the first place - it's called specialization. If I am specializing in a certain thing, narrowing my focus to exclude options that a more generalist approach would give me...why, precisely, am I not getting improved returns from that specialization? That is the entire point of specialization versus generalization.
The melee passives need this fix. They're getting it. I am happy. If there are balance issues with other powers, and I don't doubt there are, then address those instead.
P.S. - I've always found it ironic that the Specialist Archetype is a shining example of how to not be a specialist sort of character. Defensive passive, wide array of attack options at multiple ranges and areas of effect...yup, totally a toolboxy generalist type. Even though he's a Specialist. Tee hee.
Just wanted to say that this SHOULD NOT BE the trade-off of using melee powers. Because if it were anyway true in fiction or real life, we'd all be using swords instead of guns.
In fiction, using fists instead of guns is a very common trope.
I just want to point out that in comics (arguably our source material for this little simulations) characters that use melee attacks have one thing in common: they all have substantial defenses, particularly against ranged attacks.
They're also characterized by substantial offenses. The general way ranged/melee works in comics is that the melee characters have trouble engaging, but if they succeed in engaging, they're very dangerous.
Basically there are no "squishies" in the melee DPS roster. That's the trade off of super-heroing. They don't hit harder than ranged.
Yeah they do. Top-end 'damage' characters are all super-strength in comics (not melee either; super-strength specifically). If Superman's in a tough fight, he doesn't use his eye beams; he clobbers people. Same for most ranged/melee hybrids in the comics (non-hybrids, it's hard to tell).
Could you explain how a "Ruin Tank" works? I'm betting they're using Ebon ruin for reasons other than "wow, it's ranged" since there are a lot of ranged powers to choose from... One power should not be defining an entire mode of damage dealing... *eye's sword cyclone*
It's also called a "tank". Does that mean it runs a defensives stance/passive? Because the inequities between offensive and defensive passives always seemed more out of whack than Ranged/Melee.
The Ruin Tank is at it's core SS STR/CON with Enrage, Defiance, Ebon Ruin, Spirit Reverberation, and Shotgun.
Ebon Ruin is the main attack. With 8 stacks of Enrage it's decent damage for a tank, and it has a healing debuff. It also has a DoT component which feeds constant energy via Spirit Reverberation allowing the tank to spam attacks nonstop. Shotgun w/ advantage is a 100% chance to knockback with enrage which makes it near impossible for melee toons to stay in range. Since Dragon's Wrath is the biggest fear tanks have, this is a huge defensive power. Shotgun also cancels travel powers making it easier for the Ruin Tank to kite opponents.
In short, the Ruin tank is all about being a grind your opponent down while kiting build. That need to grind down since ranged tanks can't spike is also why it has to be Ebon Ruin and not any other ranged attack. They have to slow down their opponents healing.
They also have to have shotgun because Dragon's Wrath really will eat them alive if it comes down to an actual DPS race.
In duels where the Ruin tank can focus on just one opponent, it's as hard to beat as any build you can think of. In games like Stronghold or even UTC, it's nowhere near as dangerous because it's not a true tank so can't take getting swarmed by opponents, and it's not a true DPS toon, so it's not scary levels of damage.
It's also pretty weak against shadows and bubble tanks since shadows negate ruin and bubbles don't care about healing debuffs.
I have a balance concern when it comes to thew new Lock and Load. Previously, the damage component only belonging to the technology tree didn't cause the advantage Two Smoking Barrels to be much of a concern, but in it's current state, any melee maintain, or fast activating power causes this active offense to be available on almost every encounter. Since it now boosts damage for the same amount as every other offensive clickie for everyone, this makes it's use by all melee toons to be overpoweringly strong.
I can understand the specialist archetype wanting this advantage, as it fits the concept, but as it stands, any melee toon that doesn't take it, along with the advantage should have their head examined. With the possible exception of Brick toons, although they have quite a few fast activating powers as well.
Just wanted to say that this SHOULD NOT BE the trade-off of using melee powers. Because if it were anyway true in fiction or real life, we'd all be using swords instead of guns.
That isnt completely accurate.
The development of ranged weapons wasnt focused on the ability to do more damage than was possible with an axe or sword, but rather the ability to do damage to the axe or sword wielder before he could damage you.
A modern bullet isnt necessarily doing any more damage to a target than would a well swing axe, sword, or spear. But is doing that damage from well outside of the attack envelope of the melee weapon wielder.
A bullet does deliver high kinetic energy at a very small point, giving it significant armor penetration, but again thats not a matter of more damage, just damage delivered differently.
A Saxon Seax thrust upward through a target's belly into his heart or lungs is every bit as damaging as a rifle shot.
In my opinion the real concern with ranged vs melee is the fact that a ranged character's attack envelope isnt really that much greater than that of a melee combatant. This is true in most games Ive played. The game is set up so that a melee character can close with a ranged combatant fairly quickly. Either through short duration speed boosts, lunges, and/or very limited maximum engagement ranges games generally deprive ranged combatants of the one inherent advantage of ranged weapons/attacks.
In CO lunges give melee combatants an engagement envelope (70') greater than that of a medium range combatant (50') and only 30' shorter than that of a long range combatant (100'). Meanwhile a ranged combatant is limited to using his rocket launcher, compound bow, assault rifle, etc to a maximum range of barely over 30 yards. Pure silliness.
I understand that in an MMO draw distances and the like make more accurate effective ranges for firearms and the like difficult, at best, to implement, but it is still a bummer to be restricted to rock throwing range when using a rifle.
Yeah they do. Top-end 'damage' characters are all super-strength in comics (not melee either; super-strength specifically). If Superman's in a tough fight, he doesn't use his eye beams; he clobbers people. Same for most ranged/melee hybrids in the comics (non-hybrids, it's hard to tell).
Confused, I'm fair sure the phoenix could kill the hulk considering she ate a star, in fact while that may be the case in dc, in marvel some of the most powerful people are "ranged" characters.
Actually, now that I think about this, its only really mutants that this applies to, most non mutant super superpowered people are as you said SS STR.
Confused, I'm fair sure the phoenix could kill the hulk considering she ate a star, in fact while that may be the case in dc, in marvel some of the most powerful people are "ranged" characters.
Actually, now that I think about this, its only really mutants that this applies to, most non mutant super superpowered people are as you said SS STR.
When she became the Phoenix she went from being a character to being a plot device.
I have a balance concern when it comes to thew new Lock and Load. Previously, the damage component only belonging to the technology tree didn't cause the advantage Two Smoking Barrels to be much of a concern, but in it's current state, any melee maintain, or fast activating power causes this active offense to be available on almost every encounter. Since it now boosts damage for the same amount as every other offensive clickie for everyone, this makes it's use by all melee toons to be overpoweringly strong.
I can understand the specialist archetype wanting this advantage, as it fits the concept, but as it stands, any melee toon that doesn't take it, along with the advantage should have their head examined. With the possible exception of Brick toons, although they have quite a few fast activating powers as well.
The Ruin Tank is at it's core SS STR/CON with Enrage, Defiance, Ebon Ruin, Spirit Reverberation, and Shotgun.
Ebon Ruin is the main attack. With 8 stacks of Enrage it's decent damage for a tank, and it has a healing debuff. It also has a DoT component which feeds constant energy via Spirit Reverberation allowing the tank to spam attacks nonstop. Shotgun w/ advantage is a 100% chance to knockback with enrage which makes it near impossible for melee toons to stay in range. Since Dragon's Wrath is the biggest fear tanks have, this is a huge defensive power. Shotgun also cancels travel powers making it easier for the Ruin Tank to kite opponents.
In short, the Ruin tank is all about being a grind your opponent down while kiting build. They need to grind down since ranged tanks can't spike is also why it has to be Ebon Ruin and not any other ranged attack. They have to slow down their opponents' healing.
They also have to have shotgun because Dragon's Wrath really will eat them alive if it comes down to an actual DPS race.
In duels where the Ruin tank can focus on just one opponent, it's as hard to beat as any build you can think of. In games like Stronghold or even UTC, it's nowhere near as dangerous because it's not a true tank so can't take getting swarmed by opponents, and it's not a true DPS toon, so it's not scary levels of damage.
It's also pretty weak against shadows and bubble tanks since shadows negate ruin and bubbles don't care about healing debuffs.
So, are we gonna get a significant advantage on EBB, like, i dunno, damage absorption penetration or something instead of the current totally useless advantage?
Since it now boosts damage for the same amount as every other offensive clickie for everyone, this makes it's use by all melee toons to be overpoweringly strong.
I can understand the specialist archetype wanting this advantage, as it fits the concept, but as it stands, any melee toon that doesn't take it, along with the advantage should have their head examined. With the possible exception of Brick toons, although they have quite a few fast activating powers as well.
So really Melee got a stealth buff.
I was using Lock N Load in the power house and Ego Blade Frenzy was able to keep this power up non stop. Now its less like an active offense and more like enrage.(attacking maintains your damage buff)
I really don't think this attack should buff melee damage. I don't think there's any doubt that melee damage is high enough at this point (especially with the passive changes and the ego buff)
Ame, are the lock and load changes part of a broader plan for active offense that we cant see? What made you change your mind because i distinctly remember you saying that you didn't want Lock N Load to buff melee because it would become too ez of a choice for melee.
In duels where the Ruin tank can focus on just one opponent, it's as hard to beat as any build you can think of. In games like Stronghold or even UTC, it's nowhere near as dangerous because it's not a true tank so can't take getting swarmed by opponents, and it's not a true DPS toon, so it's not scary levels of damage.
I disagree on this bit. You are not taking into account the rest of the ER tank team, and the mayhem a group of simultaneous ebon rifts will cause.
Of course if the rest of his team is weak you can slaughter them and then go after the ER tank and make short work of him too. However if the other 4/5 of the teams are on more or less equal ground, the er tank will be an extremely powerful addition. And god forbid you face a team wholly composed of ER tanks. I was in a 4 vs 4 UTC where the other team was 3 ER tanks + toxic tiny tim (cascade one shots). It was essentially impossible to play against it.
There might be a few builds who can hold their own (and those based on shadow form I'm not so sure due to Skarn's Bane, which would leave only a bubble tank as a viable alternative), but the sooner that particular build gets shot to pieces by some patch, the better for CO PvP will be.
Right now I'm hoping the TK pass will bring some melee toons with some truly ridiculous amounts of spike damage so they can quickly kill the damn defiance based monstrosities. Of course this will also leave avenger offensive passive-based ranged toons even more in the dirt <sigh>.
I was using Lock N Load in the power house and Ego Blade Frenzy was able to keep this power up non stop. Now its less like an active offense and more like enrage.(attacking maintains your damage buff)
I really don't think this attack should buff melee damage. I don't think there's any doubt that melee damage is high enough at this point (especially with the passive changes and the ego buff)
Ame, are the lock and load changes part of a broader plan for active offense that we cant see? What made you change your mind because i distinctly remember you saying that you didn't want Lock N Load to buff melee because it would become too ez of a choice for melee.
While I agree the advantage probably needs to be toned down, I would like to not see the power itself change from what it is. I like the fact that the active offenses are now normalized to an extent, and I can take whichever one fits my character concept without worrying about having to be glowing with lightning on a non-electric character just because that's the one that works for my character's damage type.
-edit-
I just went ahead and tested in out myself with all three attack styles. Here's what I found.
With charged melee attacks (even short ones) the advantage is OK, but it's really not uber. Up time was greater of course, but no where near perma.
Tapping melee attacks, the advantage was more noticeable, but again, up time wasn't close to perma.
Maintains are what are breaking the advantage. Specifically. Other melee attacks are not.
TK Shield linger... improved but still not worth taking. Force Sheath is nearly the same protection but also return crazy amounts of energy. Two stacks of Voracious Darkness provides better protection. What's the benefit to the TK Shield linger?
I semi-agree.
The TK Shield Linger is now worth taking. 1pt for all-type damage coverage, yay!
But TK Shield itself needs a special something to make it unique. (that could also carry over to the Linger)
I was using Lock N Load in the power house and Ego Blade Frenzy was able to keep this power up non stop. Now its less like an active offense and more like enrage.(attacking maintains your damage buff)
I really don't think this attack should buff melee damage. I don't think there's any doubt that melee damage is high enough at this point (especially with the passive changes and the ego buff)
Ame, are the lock and load changes part of a broader plan for active offense that we cant see? What made you change your mind because i distinctly remember you saying that you didn't want Lock N Load to buff melee because it would become too ez of a choice for melee.
Well Ame did say that because of Lock'n Load all other acive offenses wil also get looked at soon.
This implies he knows how powerful Lock'n Load is now.
This implies he knows how powerful Lock'n Load is now.
He wouldn't be Ame if he didn't.
Im just giving feedback of my opinion that Lock N Load is potentially overpowered when combined with fast activating melee powers and asking what his master plan for active offenses is that makes it not overpowered.
Im just giving feedback of my opinion that Lock N Load is potentially overpowered when combined with fast activating melee powers and asking what his master plan for active offenses is that makes it not overpowered.
It's not really fast activating melee powers, it's the rapid maintains. Maybe you can click faster than me, but spamming .67 activation melee attacks did not make Lock and Load come back up that quickly. It still took a good deal of pounding and spamming, and the buff had long since expired by the time it was off cooldown.
Then I tried with Ego Blade Frenzy, and I had two stacks of Lock and Load going at once. Huge difference.
I semi-agree.
The TK Shield Linger is now worth taking. 1pt for all-type damage coverage, yay!
But TK Shield itself needs a special something to make it unique. (that could also carry over to the Linger)
I agree that it needs something, but disagree that it's worth taking.
Ebon Void w/ Voracious Darkness provides better protection at just 2 stacks... let alone if you get the full 10 stacks for the same point cost. Oh, and Voracious Darkness stacks last 10 seconds instead of 8 seconds like the TK Shield linger. Why would I pick TK Shield w/ the lingering adv?
It's not really fast activating melee powers, it's the rapid maintains. Maybe you can click faster than me, but spamming .67 activation melee attacks did not make Lock and Load come back up that quickly. It still took a good deal of pounding and spamming, and the buff had long since expired by the time it was off cooldown.
Then I tried with Ego Blade Frenzy, and I had two stacks of Lock and Load going at once. Huge difference.
Especially since each damage tick vs each foe in the area triggers the 2SB effect.
Im just giving feedback of my opinion that Lock N Load is potentially overpowered when combined with fast activating melee powers and asking what his master plan for active offenses is that makes it not overpowered.
The simple answer is - I knew the changes to LNL would make it stronger, I didn't know the extent of "how much stronger." It sounds like I need to take a more in-depth look at it. And yes, you can't quite see the master plan, but the master plan is not "lets make active offenses be on all the time."
It's much more akin to "lots of the Active Offenses are less powerful than other ones (I'm looking at you, Shadow Shroud) and that shouldn't be the case. The best way to solve this is to convert them all to having the same base with each having secondary effects, similar to how our Energy Form passives are built. This meant doing 1 of 2 things:
1) Changing all of the Active Offenses that currently affect all damage to only affect the appropriate damage category.
2) Changing all of the Active Offenses that only affect the appropriate damage category to affect all damage.
Choice 1 would have happened if we didn't think we could differentiate them enough to make them interesting. We went with choice 2 because we think the secondary effects they have can provide enough of a reason to pick different ones.
Obviously, this pass is still not done, and won't be done when these changes go live. We've made some relatively simple and quick tweaks to get them more in line, but there are still issues - Shadow Shroud being the underpowered one, and LNL looking to be the overpowered side. Shadow Shroud probably won't get a more added to it with this patch (we have enough going on with this patch as it is) and LNL needs to not get overly buffed for melee builds.
I'm not certain we'll be able to get LNL with 2SB into a safe place with the current tweaks terribly easily. Even if we considerably reduced the benefit that 2SB granted, being able to have LNL up a good portion of the time would be much more compelling than having any of the Active Offenses at Rank 3. If we can't get it into a place we're happy with before this patch goes live, we'll yank the LNL changes, making it a unique Active Offense for the time being, until we come up with a solution we're happy with. We don't want to make LNL/2SB a must take power for all melees, and that's what the current version is (thus giving melee an even bigger boost than what they're getting with the passive fixes).
Again, thanks for all the feedback everyone. I have been busy, and not able to post as much as I have been recently, but the feedback is getting looked at.
It's not really fast activating melee powers, it's the rapid maintains. Maybe you can click faster than me, but spamming .67 activation melee attacks did not make Lock and Load come back up that quickly. It still took a good deal of pounding and spamming, and the buff had long since expired by the time it was off cooldown.
Then I tried with Ego Blade Frenzy, and I had two stacks of Lock and Load going at once. Huge difference.
It's more that AoE's proc the adv for each target hit. Single target attacks, even maintains, do not allow stacking unless you're running a LOT of INT.
Celestial Cleansing is still working only at 10 ft range when targeting enemies. This is at rank 1-3 and with the advantage. Somehow the ally side of the power is working as intended.. but not the offensive (with the one good effect the power has, travel power removal).
Also the "Remove Energy Form" debuff does not proc 100% of the time. In fact it rarely procs at all.. I was able to get up to about 50% success rate by casting 2 in a row using "Nanobot Swarm". I could also not reproduce this unless the other player was not using powers at all and was allowing me to test. in any real combat scenario it never came to work. Please standardize this effect (hopefully to always work on passives instead of "energy form". PvE Characters dont use energy forms.
note also: the debuff duration is instant and many buffs are immediately after 2 seconds (Pestinelce and Regeneration) while others recast after 5-6 seconds (ice, shadow, fire, ego, elec forms)
The power is not castable on Teleport or Tunnelling (someone please also confirm this with higher perception gear.. i had one item at 430INT) which is frankly the only reson to have the power.
Finally, the travel power removal is only for 3 seconds in comparison to Nailed To The Grounds duration. However this power can be used in conjunction with NTTG to lock out travel powers for extended periods. If this is intended, please ignore otherwise please rework.
It's more that AoE's proc the adv for each target hit. Single target attacks, even maintains, do not allow stacking unless you're running a LOT of INT.
Seems like giving LnL a .67 internal cooldown would resolve this. Could tick as fast as you can reasonably attack, but you'd only get one tick of it per attack, regardless of targets.
Seems like giving LnL a .67 internal cooldown would resolve this. Could tick as fast as you can reasonably attack, but you'd only get one tick of it per attack, regardless of targets.
More or less, though I'd push for a 0.5 second internal cooldown. Though I have LnL on my Devour Essence tank build so I'm a bit biased...
Or even more severe, proc once per activation of a melee attack. That would make it useless with maintains, which isn't necessarily a terrible thing, as there are no melee maintains anywhere in Technology. That would be leaning on the heavy side of the nerf bat though.
Celestial Cleansing is still working only at 10 ft range when targeting enemies.
Celestial Cleansing definitely has issues, and most of them are... very difficult to fix. However, I am completely unable to reproduce this one. I just tested against multiple flying enemies, and was able to remove their travel power with 100% reliability from greater than 50 feet away.
Ebon Rift is still being buffed by STR and not EGO when you take the vengeful shadows advantage, its also being buffed by melee bonus's
My testing shows that the damage is being incorrectly buffed by the Brawler role, but that no other melee buffs affect it, and the Knock strength is being buffed by Ego, not Strength. In what other cases are you seeing melee buffs affect the power?
Agreed totally. In PvP, Ranged is so outclassed nowadays it's not even funny. Melee should do more damage because it's harder to get into range of its attacks, I understand that.
The problem is that it's SO easy to get into melee range and stay there (due to an extremely trivial power that roots/slows/turns off travel powers/stops blocking/whatever that costs no End and is on a practically nonexistent 3 second timer) that any advantage Ranged had (you know, being in range) is laughed at and ignored.
PvP is broken. Utterly, totally, and completely. The Melee vs Ranged thing isn't even remotely balanced and hasn't been so in ages.
This heads into PvE too, but not as badly, as most mobs can't turn off your travel power anymore (unlike before), which means you can sit back and rain fire and brimstone on them. But a lot of mobs still have lunge type moves, so if you're not a flier, you'll see them in your faces anyway.
Frankly, as far as I'm concerned, Lunges are broken and are the core problem of this. They're too easy to use (next to no End cost and negligible recharge time), too powerful (slow/root/stun/remove travel power/stop blocking all on ONE power), too long of a range (60ft, which is beyond the range of most of the more damaging attacks of Ranged, at 50ft), and they're the move that everybody and everybody wants to have.
And then there's the argument of Defensive Passives being too powerful compared to Offensive ones. And that's a whole different issue that I don't want to even think of getting into.
TLDR: PvP is totally broken and Ranged verses Melee isn't balanced in the slightest. CO is not a PvPing game and it really shows. Why do people expect balance in PvP again?
I dont think like you, Melee could be easily kiten, the lunges are necesary and you can root/hold a melee at range... The problem of pvp is not melee, is there are some powers that are unbalanced, but, since start of the this game, now, it got the best melee vs range balance.
Between, dunno if this final buff on passives (as I understand it will do less damage with no rank, and a bit more at 3rd rank, so is not a big buff... or a buff itself...) is more a fix, because, the actual state was not intended, still, anyway, dont knowing if this will unbalance range vs melee...
I think, between, that what really needs a small buff is avenger role...
The simple answer is - I knew the changes to LNL would make it stronger, I didn't know the extent of "how much stronger." It sounds like I need to take a more in-depth look at it. And yes, you can't quite see the master plan, but the master plan is not "lets make active offenses be on all the time."
the only problem i see with 2SB is that it gives an advantage to melee users over ranged users, so why not make it fair and change the way 2SB works and make it be triggered by all attacks (ranged and melee) instead?
Celestial Cleansing definitely has issues, and most of them are... very difficult to fix. However, I am completely unable to reproduce this one. I just tested against multiple flying enemies, and was able to remove their travel power with 100% reliability from greater than 50 feet away.
Was that test against NPCs or enemy players (like in PvP)? I know Jaybezz' problem stems from trying to use it as a travel remover against other players in PvP.
the only problem i see with 2SB is that it gives an advantage to melee users over ranged users, so why not make it fair and change the way 2SB works and make it be triggered by all attacks (ranged and melee) instead?
If that happened it would be safe to say that all my toons, not just the melee ones, would take LnL w/ adv.
Telekinetic Burst: The 'explosion' for TK Burst is occuring on the caster and not the target. Silly sword graphic is still there (if nothing else, make a 0 point to turn off the sword graphic), and it's still pink despite the power color.
Telekinetic Lance: Charging this does roughly double what a tap does. That's, to say the least, inadequate. It also still looks like a freaking lance. If nothing else, make a 0 point to turn off the lance graphic.
Telekinetic Assault: The graphic doesn't always animate. Also, you're still shooting ridiculous little swords/arrows at the target. If nothing else, make a 0 point to turn off the swords/arrow graphic
Most of the new ranged powers look like swords, lances or arrows. If nothing else, make a 0 point to turn off those misplaced, have-nothing-to-do-with-telekinesis graphics
By the way, have you considered making a 0 point advantage to remove the arrow/sword/lance graphics from the new ranged TK powers? Just a thought.
By the way, have you considered making a 0 point advantage to remove the arrow/sword/lance graphics from the new ranged TK powers? Just a thought.
You know they don't like doing ZPAs and we already have alot of them in this set. What would you replace the graphics with? Or would you have the entire set like the invisible buged TK assault?
If the problem is Two Smoking Barrels reducing the cooldown too fast, I suggest changing that, and that only. It's not like the power was melee-only, I was taking Lock and Load on every ranged Muni, PA, and Archery toon.
Ice Sheathe is great for MA melee toons as well, thanks to the snare and crit bonus. Should that be forced into being ranged elemental only?
Comments
Sometimes looking at your source material goes a long way towards solving your design problems. Especially when you are trying to evoke a particular genre. The nice thing here is comics thrive on dramatic comflict which can be nearly the same thing as good gameplay - a boring comicbook fight is a boring gaming encounter.
(one-shotting and held-to-death being perfect examples of common but undesirable game behavior that would make for sucky comic stories)
Meh. I could mathematically describe 70% of the comic-book ranged/melee paradigm in one CO equation:
Base Dodge% = 5 + (distance in meters/2)
Then even if you have ranged powers, you are rewarded for closing to use them.
Anyways.
Guys...seriously? You argument is "Melee passives were screwy, yeah, but they should stay screwy because melee's already too strong"? How does that make the remotest amount of sense? If your problem is with DW or DC spikers, than seek to get Wrath or Claws addressed. If the problem is melee toggle skills adding too much +damage, then get those addressed. If the problem is melee + STR + Enrage + Aggressor, then get that addressed.
My specialized, melee-only passive which has less functionality than a generalist damage passive SHOULD NOT be less powerful than that same generalist passive in melee combat.
That is not the way to balance a game. A limited, narrowly-focused option should be more powerful, within the scope of its limitations, than a more generalized option within that same scope. That's why the limits exist in the first place - it's called specialization. If I am specializing in a certain thing, narrowing my focus to exclude options that a more generalist approach would give me...why, precisely, am I not getting improved returns from that specialization? That is the entire point of specialization versus generalization.
The melee passives need this fix. They're getting it. I am happy. If there are balance issues with other powers, and I don't doubt there are, then address those instead.
P.S. - I've always found it ironic that the Specialist Archetype is a shining example of how to not be a specialist sort of character. Defensive passive, wide array of attack options at multiple ranges and areas of effect...yup, totally a toolboxy generalist type. Even though he's a Specialist. Tee hee.
The Ruin Tank is at it's core SS STR/CON with Enrage, Defiance, Ebon Ruin, Spirit Reverberation, and Shotgun.
Ebon Ruin is the main attack. With 8 stacks of Enrage it's decent damage for a tank, and it has a healing debuff. It also has a DoT component which feeds constant energy via Spirit Reverberation allowing the tank to spam attacks nonstop. Shotgun w/ advantage is a 100% chance to knockback with enrage which makes it near impossible for melee toons to stay in range. Since Dragon's Wrath is the biggest fear tanks have, this is a huge defensive power. Shotgun also cancels travel powers making it easier for the Ruin Tank to kite opponents.
In short, the Ruin tank is all about being a grind your opponent down while kiting build. That need to grind down since ranged tanks can't spike is also why it has to be Ebon Ruin and not any other ranged attack. They have to slow down their opponents healing.
They also have to have shotgun because Dragon's Wrath really will eat them alive if it comes down to an actual DPS race.
In duels where the Ruin tank can focus on just one opponent, it's as hard to beat as any build you can think of. In games like Stronghold or even UTC, it's nowhere near as dangerous because it's not a true tank so can't take getting swarmed by opponents, and it's not a true DPS toon, so it's not scary levels of damage.
It's also pretty weak against shadows and bubble tanks since shadows negate ruin and bubbles don't care about healing debuffs.
I can understand the specialist archetype wanting this advantage, as it fits the concept, but as it stands, any melee toon that doesn't take it, along with the advantage should have their head examined. With the possible exception of Brick toons, although they have quite a few fast activating powers as well.
That isnt completely accurate.
The development of ranged weapons wasnt focused on the ability to do more damage than was possible with an axe or sword, but rather the ability to do damage to the axe or sword wielder before he could damage you.
A modern bullet isnt necessarily doing any more damage to a target than would a well swing axe, sword, or spear. But is doing that damage from well outside of the attack envelope of the melee weapon wielder.
A bullet does deliver high kinetic energy at a very small point, giving it significant armor penetration, but again thats not a matter of more damage, just damage delivered differently.
A Saxon Seax thrust upward through a target's belly into his heart or lungs is every bit as damaging as a rifle shot.
In my opinion the real concern with ranged vs melee is the fact that a ranged character's attack envelope isnt really that much greater than that of a melee combatant. This is true in most games Ive played. The game is set up so that a melee character can close with a ranged combatant fairly quickly. Either through short duration speed boosts, lunges, and/or very limited maximum engagement ranges games generally deprive ranged combatants of the one inherent advantage of ranged weapons/attacks.
In CO lunges give melee combatants an engagement envelope (70') greater than that of a medium range combatant (50') and only 30' shorter than that of a long range combatant (100'). Meanwhile a ranged combatant is limited to using his rocket launcher, compound bow, assault rifle, etc to a maximum range of barely over 30 yards. Pure silliness.
I understand that in an MMO draw distances and the like make more accurate effective ranges for firearms and the like difficult, at best, to implement, but it is still a bummer to be restricted to rock throwing range when using a rifle.
Assuming you're not held at the time, pop MR and watch'em cry as you get insta-healed. Go Skarn's Bane! Forcing buffs to time out...
Actually, now that I think about this, its only really mutants that this applies to, most non mutant super superpowered people are as you said SS STR.
When she became the Phoenix she went from being a character to being a plot device.
It's super nice. = p
Thank you, sir. I feel much better informed
(...and knowing is half the battle!)
So really Melee got a stealth buff.
I was using Lock N Load in the power house and Ego Blade Frenzy was able to keep this power up non stop. Now its less like an active offense and more like enrage.(attacking maintains your damage buff)
I really don't think this attack should buff melee damage. I don't think there's any doubt that melee damage is high enough at this point (especially with the passive changes and the ego buff)
Ame, are the lock and load changes part of a broader plan for active offense that we cant see? What made you change your mind because i distinctly remember you saying that you didn't want Lock N Load to buff melee because it would become too ez of a choice for melee.
I disagree on this bit. You are not taking into account the rest of the ER tank team, and the mayhem a group of simultaneous ebon rifts will cause.
Of course if the rest of his team is weak you can slaughter them and then go after the ER tank and make short work of him too. However if the other 4/5 of the teams are on more or less equal ground, the er tank will be an extremely powerful addition. And god forbid you face a team wholly composed of ER tanks. I was in a 4 vs 4 UTC where the other team was 3 ER tanks + toxic tiny tim (cascade one shots). It was essentially impossible to play against it.
There might be a few builds who can hold their own (and those based on shadow form I'm not so sure due to Skarn's Bane, which would leave only a bubble tank as a viable alternative), but the sooner that particular build gets shot to pieces by some patch, the better for CO PvP will be.
Right now I'm hoping the TK pass will bring some melee toons with some truly ridiculous amounts of spike damage so they can quickly kill the damn defiance based monstrosities. Of course this will also leave avenger offensive passive-based ranged toons even more in the dirt <sigh>.
While I agree the advantage probably needs to be toned down, I would like to not see the power itself change from what it is. I like the fact that the active offenses are now normalized to an extent, and I can take whichever one fits my character concept without worrying about having to be glowing with lightning on a non-electric character just because that's the one that works for my character's damage type.
-edit-
I just went ahead and tested in out myself with all three attack styles. Here's what I found.
With charged melee attacks (even short ones) the advantage is OK, but it's really not uber. Up time was greater of course, but no where near perma.
Tapping melee attacks, the advantage was more noticeable, but again, up time wasn't close to perma.
Maintains are what are breaking the advantage. Specifically. Other melee attacks are not.
I semi-agree.
The TK Shield Linger is now worth taking. 1pt for all-type damage coverage, yay!
But TK Shield itself needs a special something to make it unique. (that could also carry over to the Linger)
Well Ame did say that because of Lock'n Load all other acive offenses wil also get looked at soon.
This implies he knows how powerful Lock'n Load is now.
He wouldn't be Ame if he didn't.
Im just giving feedback of my opinion that Lock N Load is potentially overpowered when combined with fast activating melee powers and asking what his master plan for active offenses is that makes it not overpowered.
It's not really fast activating melee powers, it's the rapid maintains. Maybe you can click faster than me, but spamming .67 activation melee attacks did not make Lock and Load come back up that quickly. It still took a good deal of pounding and spamming, and the buff had long since expired by the time it was off cooldown.
Then I tried with Ego Blade Frenzy, and I had two stacks of Lock and Load going at once. Huge difference.
Ebon Void w/ Voracious Darkness provides better protection at just 2 stacks... let alone if you get the full 10 stacks for the same point cost. Oh, and Voracious Darkness stacks last 10 seconds instead of 8 seconds like the TK Shield linger. Why would I pick TK Shield w/ the lingering adv?
Especially since each damage tick vs each foe in the area triggers the 2SB effect.
Put a cooldown on the 2SB effect. Let it still be worth it to lower the cooldown, but not so much that you can double-stack it.
Don't know all Champions abbreviations yet so I ask what's "eacb"?
That seems to be the logical choice, honestly.
I think that's just a typo of "Each"
*facepalm* lol
The simple answer is - I knew the changes to LNL would make it stronger, I didn't know the extent of "how much stronger." It sounds like I need to take a more in-depth look at it. And yes, you can't quite see the master plan, but the master plan is not "lets make active offenses be on all the time."
It's much more akin to "lots of the Active Offenses are less powerful than other ones (I'm looking at you, Shadow Shroud) and that shouldn't be the case. The best way to solve this is to convert them all to having the same base with each having secondary effects, similar to how our Energy Form passives are built. This meant doing 1 of 2 things:
1) Changing all of the Active Offenses that currently affect all damage to only affect the appropriate damage category.
2) Changing all of the Active Offenses that only affect the appropriate damage category to affect all damage.
Choice 1 would have happened if we didn't think we could differentiate them enough to make them interesting. We went with choice 2 because we think the secondary effects they have can provide enough of a reason to pick different ones.
Obviously, this pass is still not done, and won't be done when these changes go live. We've made some relatively simple and quick tweaks to get them more in line, but there are still issues - Shadow Shroud being the underpowered one, and LNL looking to be the overpowered side. Shadow Shroud probably won't get a more added to it with this patch (we have enough going on with this patch as it is) and LNL needs to not get overly buffed for melee builds.
I'm not certain we'll be able to get LNL with 2SB into a safe place with the current tweaks terribly easily. Even if we considerably reduced the benefit that 2SB granted, being able to have LNL up a good portion of the time would be much more compelling than having any of the Active Offenses at Rank 3. If we can't get it into a place we're happy with before this patch goes live, we'll yank the LNL changes, making it a unique Active Offense for the time being, until we come up with a solution we're happy with. We don't want to make LNL/2SB a must take power for all melees, and that's what the current version is (thus giving melee an even bigger boost than what they're getting with the passive fixes).
Again, thanks for all the feedback everyone. I have been busy, and not able to post as much as I have been recently, but the feedback is getting looked at.
Yea i was thinking it needs a cooldown similar to how crits are limited to how often they can proc energy gain with the tempest form.
EDIT: *Breaths a sigh of relief*:p
I suspected as such but its good to be reassured. Thanks for the swift response:D
It's more that AoE's proc the adv for each target hit. Single target attacks, even maintains, do not allow stacking unless you're running a LOT of INT.
Also the "Remove Energy Form" debuff does not proc 100% of the time. In fact it rarely procs at all.. I was able to get up to about 50% success rate by casting 2 in a row using "Nanobot Swarm". I could also not reproduce this unless the other player was not using powers at all and was allowing me to test. in any real combat scenario it never came to work. Please standardize this effect (hopefully to always work on passives instead of "energy form". PvE Characters dont use energy forms.
note also: the debuff duration is instant and many buffs are immediately after 2 seconds (Pestinelce and Regeneration) while others recast after 5-6 seconds (ice, shadow, fire, ego, elec forms)
The power is not castable on Teleport or Tunnelling (someone please also confirm this with higher perception gear.. i had one item at 430INT) which is frankly the only reson to have the power.
Finally, the travel power removal is only for 3 seconds in comparison to Nailed To The Grounds duration. However this power can be used in conjunction with NTTG to lock out travel powers for extended periods. If this is intended, please ignore otherwise please rework.
Seems like giving LnL a .67 internal cooldown would resolve this. Could tick as fast as you can reasonably attack, but you'd only get one tick of it per attack, regardless of targets.
More or less, though I'd push for a 0.5 second internal cooldown. Though I have LnL on my Devour Essence tank build so I'm a bit biased...
Fast Melee Maintains with area would recharge it no faster than a fast maintain single target attack.
That's my thinking anyhow.
Oh you're right. Hmm. That would probably cross the line from being a heavy nerf to a flat out unfair one then.
Celestial Cleansing definitely has issues, and most of them are... very difficult to fix. However, I am completely unable to reproduce this one. I just tested against multiple flying enemies, and was able to remove their travel power with 100% reliability from greater than 50 feet away.
My testing shows that the damage is being incorrectly buffed by the Brawler role, but that no other melee buffs affect it, and the Knock strength is being buffed by Ego, not Strength. In what other cases are you seeing melee buffs affect the power?
I dont think like you, Melee could be easily kiten, the lunges are necesary and you can root/hold a melee at range... The problem of pvp is not melee, is there are some powers that are unbalanced, but, since start of the this game, now, it got the best melee vs range balance.
Between, dunno if this final buff on passives (as I understand it will do less damage with no rank, and a bit more at 3rd rank, so is not a big buff... or a buff itself...) is more a fix, because, the actual state was not intended, still, anyway, dont knowing if this will unbalance range vs melee...
I think, between, that what really needs a small buff is avenger role...
Psychic Vortex's adv work but hardly procs if at all. Can something be done about this?
the only problem i see with 2SB is that it gives an advantage to melee users over ranged users, so why not make it fair and change the way 2SB works and make it be triggered by all attacks (ranged and melee) instead?
Was that test against NPCs or enemy players (like in PvP)? I know Jaybezz' problem stems from trying to use it as a travel remover against other players in PvP.
If that happened it would be safe to say that all my toons, not just the melee ones, would take LnL w/ adv.
By the way, have you considered making a 0 point advantage to remove the arrow/sword/lance graphics from the new ranged TK powers? Just a thought.
Exactly.
I like Two Smoking Barrels, I don't want to see it vanish completely.
However, I also want my Ego Blader to be able to take Ego Surge without feeling like I gimped myself with an "rp choice".
The active offenses have had their effects normalized, now the advantages need to be brought in line with one another.
Ice Sheathe is great for MA melee toons as well, thanks to the snare and crit bonus. Should that be forced into being ranged elemental only?